Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Pixel]

Except they haven't been trying to get Classic Sonic right for 15 years, they haven't even attempted it outside of Generations.

They have, however, consistently attempted stories ever since Adventure. And almost all of them have been cringe inducingly godawful.

That's a big difference and it's a hint that maybe Sonic Team should stay away from storytelling with a barge pole.

[JingleBoy]

Okay if the game is going to be anything like this, then it'll be pretty cool imo. I think it'd be pretty cool to see some direct references to Sonic CD's time flagposts and I quite like the idea of both Sonics teaming up against evil versions of the "shitty friends". I mean they did make that entirely new robot-Eggman character for Sonic Runners so it'd be cool to see him in a proper game.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

16 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Moreover, every new character since Sonic Adventure has been terrible.

That's like not true at all and it really shouldn't even have to be said.

This whole "only the original cast is good" thing is pure nonsense and sounds just like nostalgia obsessed rubbish. People can prefer whatever characters they want, but the idea that all the characters that are not from the classic era automatically-sucks is just silly blind hate.

[Zaysho]

50 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Because aside from Boom, they've been mindlessly throwing in pointless characters in as fanservice without even thinking of their role in the plot.

Or, you know, maybe it just means some thought needs to be put into how the characters are used and have new roles assigned to them. Considering how sparingly to not-at-all these characters have been used for the last eight years, I'm not seeing any gains from trimming the cast, especially since there haven't BEEN any gains from relegating them to the background in the last eight years, when the obvious solution to this complaint is to write them better and define how their gameplay works in relation to Sonic's.

 

41 minutes ago, Pixel said:

That's a big difference and it's a hint that maybe Sonic Team should stay away from storytelling with a barge pole.

Or hire better writers. Find people who can cover for their weaknesses.

[Mad Convoy]

They've done stories since Sonic 3, if not earlier if you count the minimalistic plot of Sonic 1. Plus Sega has been saying for years that the next game will take Sonic "back to his roots"-- and unless Sega specifies otherwise, those roots are generally considered the Classic era. Plus Fire and Ice is said to be based off of the Classic games, and while its not bad, its certainly not amongst the greatest Sonic games available. And Sonic 4 Episodes I and II are things-- by your logic, the fact that Sonic tried twice to perfectly replicate the Classic formula and failed embarrassingly should mean that Mania is not only also destined to be a failure but that no Classic-like game should ever be made again.

Heck, Sonic has also screwed up platforming a lot, with designs that aren't conducive to good momentum. Does that mean that there should be no platforming in any Sonic game? No, of course not, that just means that Sonic should fix its level design so it is conducive to momentum so good platforming happens. Same goes for stories.

[Pixel]

The point is that they've tried to write better stories for almost 2 decades. They've had ample time and opportunities to get 'better writers'.

It isn't going to happen because they clearly don't care. It would be far better for the franchise at this point to just throw away the plot weight that keeps dragging the franchise down and embarrassing the games.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I believe that any character is useful if you make them useful. Just because a character has a certain job or title doesn't mean they cannot show up and help the hero. You need to make it belivable, that's all. cutting them out denies them the chance to actually shine. Sonic has a large and colorful cast, let's not waste them. 

[Pixel]

As for Classic Sonic, they've never attempted to bring those principles into Sonic games since early Adventure prototypes and Generations. It's not comparable.

[Lucid Dream]

As far as I'm aware, the biggest problem with recent stories is simply Pontac and Graff not having a clue what they are writing about. 

And no, I am not exaggerating. They literally did not know who Sonic or Tails even were. Hell, when somebody questioned them on Adventure 2, they just said they had never heard of that game. They conducted their research on wikipedia 

I think the biggest sign that Sonic writers are the biggest problem, and not the abundance of characters is Sonic Colours. So, it's fairly widely accepted that, Sonic Colours wii, had a pretty bad story, and bad jokes. That was written by Pontac and Graff, who literally knew absolutely nothing about Sonic at the time. They were a recipe for disaster, and even though Sonic Colours had a small cast, it had pretty bad jokes, bad story and was just not good.

On the other hand, Colours DS which had some stuff written by people who actually knew Sonic and the gang well, was actually fairly well written, with good characterisation. Even though the vast majority of the cast were present, nobody complained. 

I highly doubt characters are the biggest problem. I'd much sooner point to the writers. Who actually seem to be improving, since Pontac and Graff have been said to have done a lot more research on Sonic and their character. 

[Blacklightning]

11 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Except they haven't been trying to get Classic Sonic right for 15 years, they haven't even attempted it outside of Generations.

Sonic 4? Sonic Advance? Sonic 1 GBA? Hell, even Sonic Adventure 1, arguably.

In any case, the consistency of either measure doesn't prevent your stance from being completely ridiculous. Just because Sonic plots may have been bad on some level (and even then it's going to be extremely subjective for some of them) isn't an invitation to strip all context from Sonic's actions entirely, just as much as Sonic 4 completely fucking up a simple Classic playstyle wasn't an invitation to stop trying.

Or hell, why stop there? If we're all so convinced that Sonic will never be great again, then maybe we should settle for mediocrity as long as it's not awful? Clearly we as Sonic fans should stop wanting good things.

[Darinian]

3 minutes ago, Pixel said:

The point is that they've tried to write better stories for almost 2 decades. They've had ample time and opportunities to get 'better writers'.

It isn't going to happen because they clearly don't care. 

Excuse me, but hang on a sec. Don't care....DON'T CARE. They try something different every single game and they don't care? 

[Pixel]

Sonic Team didn't make the Advance titles or Sonic 4,

And it isn't settling for mediocrity. It's playing to the current strengths of Sonic Team. They are making some improvements in the gameplay department. The games are far more polished and the controls and camera tend to be more refined than usual. Same for graphics and animation. The boost formula is terrible, but if they worked with a better concept then they might actually make a good game again.

There are no signs of improvement on the story front, it's always been awful and it's still dreadful. There's no point hoping for a miracle that's never going to happen. They should drop it and focus on what they are actually improving on.

They don't care about STORY.

[Zaysho]

2 minutes ago, Pixel said:

The point is that they've tried to write better stories for almost 2 decades. They've had ample time and opportunities to get 'better writers'.

It isn't going to happen because they clearly don't care. It would be far better for the franchise at this point to just throw away the plot weight that keeps dragging the franchise down and embarrassing the games.

I could say the same thing about classic style games, but SEGA has obviously shown they cared enough to put together a team that can deliver that exact experience with Mania. I fail to see why this doesn't apply to the modern games or how they can only be improved by getting rid of stuff that enough people actually like and would want to see improved and better integrated into the series instead of the poor execution that preceded it.

[Darinian]

1 minute ago, Pixel said:

There are no signs of improvement on the story front, it's always been awful and it's still dreadful. There's no point hoping for a miracle that's never going to happen. They should drop it and focus on what they are actually improving on.

Please elaborate on how the stories are awful. That might help me and other people.

[Lucid Dream]

2 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sonic Team didn't make the Advance titles or Sonic 4,

Er, yes they did? Sonic Team worked with Dimps. They developed the game as well. 

[Blacklightning]

2 minutes ago, Pixel said:

And it isn't settling for mediocrity. It's playing to the current strengths of Sonic Team. They are making some improvements in the gameplay department. The games are far more polished and the controls and camera tend to be more refined than usual. Same for graphics and animation. The boost formula is terrible, but if they worked with a better concept then they might actually make a good game again.

There are no signs of improvement on the story front, it's always been awful and it's still dreadful. There's no point hoping for a miracle that's never going to happen. They should drop it and focus on what they are actually improving on.

Wow, really? It's almost as though gameplay and storytelling are handled by completely different people or something.

...you'll have to forgive the unbearable sarcasm, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to take you seriously when you suggest one thing is completely unchangable in the same breath as accurately suggesting another facet is actually improving.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

20 minutes ago, Pixel said:

They shouldn't literally delete the characters from lore, but it's also utterly moronic to make new characters when they have so many pointless and redundant characters. The series has far too many characters that serve the same function: They need to come down to a core of characters and make them mainstrays in the series. Because aside from Boom, they've been mindlessly throwing in pointless characters in as fanservice without even thinking of their role in the plot.

The Rival - Jet, Fang, Metal Sonic, Silver, Shadow, Knuckles. Sonic Team now has no idea what to do with Knuckles because they probably figured that two main stray rivals (Metal Sonic + Shadow) didn't need a third one needlessly clogging it up.

The Maverick - Rouge, Omega, Blaze.

The Cute Character - Amy, Cream, Charmy.

The Monster of the week - Chaos, BioLizard, Iblis, Time Eater, Deadly Six.

I could go on and on.

Like holy fuck, do we really need more redundant and pointless characters?

Ugh I know what you mean, I HATE series with redundant characters. Like Batman, for example. Can you believe how many characters in that franchise fill the role of "villain"? The Joker, the Penguin, Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze...the list goes on and on!

Seriously, though, what on earth makes you think multiple characters filling the same general role = guaranteed to be redundant? You seriously need more explanation here.

[Pixel]

Classic Sonic was once really awesome and directly challenged a hardware competitor.

Sonic's stories have always been awful (the Classic titles essentially didn't have a plot, at least not in the way we are thinking of Modern Plots).

It makes far more sense to improve on a fallen formula that was once world shattering than to improve a formula that has been consistently dreadful and shamed the franchise for nearly 20 years.

[Darinian]

3 minutes ago, Flare Sol the Snivy said:

Please elaborate on how the stories are awful. That might help me and other people.

 

Just now, Pixel said:

Sonic's stories have always been awful (the Classic titles essentially didn't have a plot, at least not in the way we are thinking of Modern Plots).

Describe

How

They 

Are 

Bad

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

Just now, Pixel said:

It makes far more sense to improve on a fallen formula that was once world shattering than to improve a formula that has been consistently dreadful and shamed the franchise for nearly 20 years.

What "formula"? Just "having stories"?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

4 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sonic's stories have always been awful (the Classic titles essentially didn't have a plot, at least not in the way we are thinking of Modern Plots).

I respect your opinion, however I do want to say that the Classic titles DID have a plot - that plot being that Eggman was making animals into robots and creating super machines and Sonic must beat him. The plot thickened wth S3&K when Knuckles and the master emerald were invovled.

[Pixel]

Sonic Team's formula of dreadful, melodramatic plots. Well, either that or godawful comedy that even the majority of fans hate.

They've never made a plot that doesn't fall into either category. And yes, they could technically knock it out the park next time, but why risk it when they've consistently fucked up for nearly 20 years.

It's a waste of time, personnel, money and general game development resources.

[Milo]

3 hours ago, JezMM said:

Having said that, no-one is bitter about Super Mario Bros. 2 or (in the US) "Super Mario World 2" so...

SMB2 isn't hated, but personally speaking, I don't really see it (or the original SMB2 The Lost Levels, for that matter) talked much in general discussion of the older 2D Mario games. Mario 1, Mario 3, or Mario 4 Mario World* usually get most of the spotlight as the peaks, whereas talk of SMB2 seems more in that it's a good game but a clear divergence of the games that came before and after it. It's arguably something of a black sheep.

As for "Super Mario World 2", market-based title aside, its worth noting nowadays the game is largely referred to by its subtitle by most people (a practice adopted by the GBA re-release); and definitely considered its own thing.

Sorta off-topic, but I felt like chiming in with my two cents.

*I'm hilarious

[Lucid Dream]

8 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sonic's stories have always been awful 

cough cough Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic and the Black Knights, Sonic and the Secret rings, Sonic Boom Fire and Ice etc etc  cough cough 

Yea, uh, Sonic has never had any adequate stories. They're all bad because they have speaking and stuff. Blaze is ugly and stuff too. Yea totes. 

Seriously though, it's kinda over the top to say all Sonic stories are terrible, when the vast majority is just under-average or average. Sonic Adventure 2 isn't bad, it's just very rough around the edges. The core concept is still fine, Rouge and Shadow are pretty well established and fine characters in the game too. 

[MightyRay]

16 minutes ago, Pixel said:

There are no signs of improvement on the story front, it's always been awful and it's still dreadful. There's no point hoping for a miracle that's never going to happen. They should drop it and focus on what they are actually improving on.

Odd... I don't know about you guys but I do remember SA 1 and 2 and Unleashed having a pretty decent plot. Dialogue between characters was meh but the over all stories were pretty neato. Colours DS wasn't too shabby either. But that's just me.

I mean who cares about Amy's touching moments with Gamma or Shadow, Perfect Chaos, Tikal's plight, Maria's wish for Shad to protect the earth, Chip's heartwarming moment with Sonic when he remembers who he is...  Or the cute little moments with Sonic interacting with Cream and Orbot and Cubot in Colours DS...  

11 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Classic Sonic was once really awesome and directly challenged a hardware competitor.

Sonic's stories have always been awful (the Classic titles essentially didn't have a plot, at least not in the way we are thinking of Modern Plots).

It makes far more sense to improve on a fallen formula that was once world shattering than to improve a formula that has been consistently dreadful and shamed the franchise for nearly 20 years.

So basically just go back to Classic Sonic and dump Modern Sonic like a sack of hot potatoes... gee whiz mate, you really can't hide your agenda to save your life if you tried.