Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Chris Knopps]

6 minutes ago, Josh said:

Nah, I think SA2 has aged poorly, and there's not really many "creative" ways to get that across.. I came to that conclusion examining the dialogue, art direction, gameplay and voice direction on my own, and this is going from someone who doesn't really have any strong feelings about the game. If you're going to accuse me of just parroting other people and not actually refute what I said then don't bother pointing it out. 

That would have been the better thing to say in the first place then. That kind of detail behind "why" you feel that way is much better than a mere few words everybody has said more than enough. It's hard to point it out as anything but parroting, though now your opinion is much more reasonable and appreciated.

It's hard to say the game play aged poorly since more often than not it's nearly precisely what consumers are asking to return as the norm for 3D Sonic game play, some here even point it out as the best example physics wise of 3D game play as well.

Just needs built upon and/or improved with the new fancy-pants tech available today.

As far as the art direction, realism was the thing for most titles back then. I will say the graphics have aged, but there are way more from that time that aged far worse, even from SEGA themselves with pretty much only nostalgia acting as their defense against this argument.

As far as the dialogue voice acting, eh... No opinion on that. It was okay at best, meh at worse for me. Squished together perhaps, but not the worst acting I've heard in a game. If not for the rushed lines, the actors probably could have delivered a better product.

Just now, Tracker_TD said:

Sonic Adventure 2 has been eroded by the waves of time. Once held as a shining beacon of some form, the ticking hands of the clock have cast across its surface violently, leaving comparably little to appreciate. Days, months, years; all taking their toll on the form of what was assured to be a classic upon release. Can we learn something from this past for our future? Perhaps it is a lesson on standards, and how the minutes can damage what we once treasured.

 

Or y'know, I can just say it aged fuckin' badly, like a normal person. 

...Are you just trying to get likes with that? I guess I could clap for you...

Anywhoo, there's my thoughts.

[Tracker_TD]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

...Are you just trying to get likes with that? I guess I could clap for you...

Anywhoo, there's my thoughts.

No, I'm trying to point out how dumb "saying it aged poorly isn't original and is therefore bad" sounds.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I love SA2:B but that game hasn't aged as gracefully as I'd have hoped.

This is also especially true for SA1 actually. That game felt aged the instant I played it, which was a little after I first got my Gamecube sometime after being enamoured with Sonic Heroes. Although, people seem to give SA1 a pass on that from what I've noticed. On a lot of things actually. People really love it's soundtrack which... I like but there's always a part of me that just goes "Yeah it's really good but... I can't say it's my favorite. It just sounds so... old..."

But I still really like them. And I still believe a lot of what they did can still do some good for the series. Just handle it in a way that doesn't age as badly and you're golden.

Sonic Adventure 1 just plays a lot better overall to me. In a platforming series, game feel and mechanics takes priority. SA1 feels pretty good to me to play still a lot of the time so I can overlook more things and enjoy myself. SA2 ranges from "alright" to outright bad(the mech stages) so the bad sticks out more.

I can't speak for everyone on team SA1 though.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

No, I'm trying to point out how dumb "saying it aged poorly isn't original and is therefore bad" sounds.

Dumb to you perhaps but there does ring truth in my stance.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

It's hard to say the game play aged poorly

SA2's gameplay aged poorly.

That wasn't hard.

Seriously though it's at least 2/3 stuff that shouldn't be in a Sonic game and Sonic/Shadow's gameplay is too automated and barely cares at all about momentum. It's not good, it's just less bad than most other attempts.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

SA2's gameplay aged poorly.

That wasn't hard.

Seriously though it's at least 2/3 stuff that shouldn't be in a Sonic game and Sonic/Shadow's gameplay is too automated and barely cares at all about momentum. It's not good, it's just less bad than most other attempts.

With the weapons concept returning in Forces it's also hard to say the game play outside of Sonic/Shadow didn't belong as even in a Modern title you can give credit to Forces in showing things aren't as unacceptable as one might believe.

[Diogenes]

A projectile attack wasn't the problem with SA2's mechs. Them being slow and clumsy and based around standing in place trying to tag as many targets as possible to maximize your score is the problem.

Also Forces looks awful in every way so I don't see how anything it does is an argument in favor of said thing.

[SuaveKnux]

Don't forget the poor platforming.

 

So many deaths from accidentally falling on the stage.

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

A projectile attack wasn't the problem with SA2's mechs. Them being slow and clumsy and based around standing in place trying to tag as many targets as possible to maximize your score is the problem.

Also Forces looks awful in every way so I don't see how anything it does is an argument in favor of said thing.

Well... I won't argue with that one. I was just trying to give the thing SOME kind of credit.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Sonic Adventure 1 just plays a lot better overall to me. In a platforming series, game feel and mechanics takes priority. SA1 feels pretty good to me to play still a lot of the time so I can overlook more things and enjoy myself. SA2 ranges from "alright" to outright bad(the mech stages) so the bad sticks out more.

I can't speak for everyone on team SA1 though.

I dunno. Maybe it's because I played SA1 after SA2:B but the way Sonic played in SA1 felt odd to me. Like it was hard to keep him straight a lot of the time and it felt harder to platform somehow. Although I did think it was cool playing as Tails in that game. Never before or since have I had so much fun flying over shit. Knuckles' stages were about what I remember from SA2, although your radar was actually better and the stages were smaller. I guess I don't feel too strongly about either one for it to have mattered much. At least until we get to Mad Space with Rouge because HOLY FUCK!

The mech stages were fine to me. I do think Gamma's gameplay worked a bit better though. Felt a lot faster. 

Despite SA1 doing some of the gameplay better, SA2 never had any gameplay elements in it that I hated. Which I can't say for SA1 because then I played the Amy stages... and the Big stages... and... I don't remember if I cried. But I probably did. I cry easily. 

Both games do stuff better and worse than each other. If I could just... pick out the things I liked about them (about all Sonic games really) and just smash them together into one cohesive package that balanced itself out, that'd be like a dream come true.

But on the subject of these games, SA2 feels better in my hands than SA1 does. I can't tell you why. Maybe if I were a game dev it'd be easier.

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Well, I think there's a fair question of whether or not it is subject matter that the series should tackle. Not "death" as a whole, but the murder of a young character's father. Hard for me to see how it'd fit into a Sonic game.

Lest we forget Sonic 2's bad ending?

 

also: I wonder if there's a new character in addition to the character creation system (likely a villain?)

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Miru the Living Planet said:

Lest we forget Sonic 2's bad ending?

 

also: I wonder if there's a new character in addition to the character creation system (likely a villain?)

Soooo...

Make your own character...

And make your own villain...?

I don't see a Custom Villain working.

[Celestia]

49 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

But on the subject of these games, SA2 feels better in my hands than SA1 does. I can't tell you why. Maybe if I were a game dev it'd be easier.

The Sonic & Shadow stages definitely feel a lot smoother than Sonic in SA1 even tho' the level design wasn't as good. The same things can be said of Knuckles & Rouge but with an additional problem of "why in the world does the radar only work for one emerald at a time." And then there's Tails and Eggman who got it the worst, considering they feel a lot clunkier and slower than Gamma.

All things considered, I agree SA2 feels better to control, 2/3rds of it at least. And literally all you'd need to do to improve the mech stages' core gameplay (at least for me, lol) is bring over Gamma's full speed mode change thing. I really don't understand why they dropped that.

Most of what I prefer about SA1's gameplay is level design. Like, to address the most obvious issue, it definitely feels like SA2 was when they decided to start giving up entirely on the series' mechanics (for one thing I don't seem to recall a single instance of natural ramps, versus SA1 which at least had a few here and there). SA1 wasn't perfect about it either to be fair (the few ramps mentioned previously use dash panels as far as I can recall), but the next game should have been at least a small step forward at worst. Instead it was one step forward, two steps back.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Celestia

[JosepHenry]

11:00

Is he  saying that there will be dialogue options or something like that? Or he is just saying how serious or how silly the design of the character can be?... But he also says within the storyline... That's a bit vague.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Joseph Mello said:

11:00

Is he  saying that there will be dialogue options or something like that? Or he is just saying how serious or how silly the design of the character can be?... But he also says within the storyline... That's a bit vague.

Right off the bat, they make the first game in years trying to be more serious, and they put an 06 gag in.

They're creating their own problems.

[Multikaris]

9 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Soooo...

Make your own character...

And make your own villain...?

I don't see a Custom Villain working.

Not a customized villain, but one that ST created for the game.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Right off the bat, they make the first game in years trying to be more serious, and they put an 06 gag in.

They're creating their own problems.

If goofing on '06 is wrong I don't want them to be right.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

If goofing on '06 is wrong I don't want them to be right.

Goofing on it is fine, just not using Forces to do so, to me at least.

(Though I would prefer they wait until a while after the game launches to start up any 06 gags)

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Joseph Mello said:

11:00

Is he  saying that there will be dialogue options or something like that? Or he is just saying how serious or how silly the design of the character can be?... But he also says within the storyline... That's a bit vague.

The more I hear and think about the character creator thing, the more okay I am with it. Which is great. I definitely prefer being okay with something as opposed to all the exaggerated, angry shouting I was doing before it wasn't Bubsy anymore.

It sounds like what they're doing has the potential to be something cool... however, there's still a lingering sentiment in me that feels like this game is still very confused... in a lot of areas. 

The character creator thing's reveal just kind of punctuated even more how strange and unnecessary Classic Sonic's presence was. I don't hate Classic Sonic (I feel I have to stress that since I complain about him all the time) but it sounds like it'd be much smoother just to have Forces be this thing where the world is turning to shit and you team your character up with Sonic's friends to save it. This awkward angle where they just kind of... shoehorn the classic stuff in doesn't feel natural. Maybe the story will make it understandable in that sense but from an outside perspective, just looking at what they're offering gameplay wise, it feels like they yet again did more work than necessary.

At the very least, it doesn't feel like Generations 2 anymore. 

Game still looks like it'll play fine but I'm more worried about how cohesive and strong a package deal it'll be. 

But this was interesting, for sure.

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

If goofing on '06 is wrong I don't want them to be right.

Despite it being better for the series overall had that game not happened... I kind of like being able to marvel at how legendarily awful it is. 

If I had a magic lamp and I could use one of those wishes to help Sonic out, I'd wish for the future to be brighter but I'd leave the past right where it was. I'm not losing my chances to make jokes about Super Hyper-Realistic Dr. Eggman. 

[Celestia]

If they had a joke about '06 way back in Generations it probably would've been funny, but it'd be a bit trite if they did it now after a few years of their official account already poking fun at it and all. Which doesn't bother me too much even if I'm not a fan of the self-deprecation shtick.

One could also argue it'd be out of place in an actual game, and I'm sure some of you would agree they haven't really earned poking fun at a bad game from 11 years ago when their current ones aren't that great either.

[Wraith]

An 06 joke would have to be really clever to worth making for me. All the good ones were overdone a while ago.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Celestia said:

If they had a joke about '06 way back in Generations it probably would've been funny, but it'd be a bit trite if they did it now after a few years of their official account already poking fun at it and all (which I'm fine with, for the record, even if I'm not a big fan of the self-deprecation shtick as a whole).

I'm just annoyed having official outlets making "lol serious/edge" and "lol 06" gags in the present. in the future after Forces has launched and had its fair time on the shelves then fine, but I feel like its devaluing Forces and complicating what it's trying to do right now.

It doesn't make any sense to me for one division to make jokes about and mock what another is trying to sell consumers. It's like one kid is pointing at the other and calling him stupid for wanting to be taken seriously despite both kids being on the same team.

It's just... Annoying and strikes my nerves. It's nonsensical and not in a funny way.

[JosepHenry]

You guys are seriously annoyed with the '06 "Now loading" screen at the beginning of the streams. Really.

Is just a running gag.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

You guys are seriously annoyed with the '06 "Now loading" screen at the beginning of the streams. Really.

Is just a running gag.

The gag is fine, the timing is just inappropriate.

[Celestia]

Well, I don't think it really devalues Forces when that sort of thing doesn't seem to be what Sonic Team is going for.

I didn't understand the "omg this is so edgy" reactions to the original teaser for Project '17 (especially with Classic's entrance lightening the mood, tho' I certainly wish they had something else in place to do that, but I digress), and nearly everything we've learned about the game since has made it clear it's not gonna be even remotely close to being like '06 in terms of tone.