Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Tenko said:

I'm still surprised there aren't more templates considering this custom character is meant to be so important and the main "feature". Where's the fox, echidna, armadillo, lizard, monkey, heck what would an anthro insect look like on Sonic's world. Or go whole hog and let us make rebel robot animals like Metal. It's like a main feature that's only half in. 

It's almost like it was going to be a Sonic creator game then they decided to just build a standard Sonic game around it.

It's like I said, they can't add those types of animals because then consumers will bring up why they couldn't just play as established characters already. They have to keep the choices and the established cast differentiated or else the idea is even more pointless.

[Tyranno]

Then I feel like we're left at the start. I don't know what else to say here - you can say that you aren't concerned with how fractious the franchise is, but at the end of the day, that doesn't change the fact that it IS fractious. For that reason, I think there's wisdom in both looking beyond our own nose, and in Sega making decisions that run counter to the loudest voices in the fandom, sometimes. I can't deny that what Shaddy described would be a good game in theory, but I'm not wholly convinced it'd fly in 2017, either.

[RictalRose0]

27 minutes ago, Kellan said:

This game is really weird for me, because it seems like every time they announce something that gets me hyped, they immediately announce something else that I don't want. The first trailer had the darker tone, but then immediately announced Classic Sonic. The first gameplay had the boost (which I like well enough), but then immediately brought back the Wisps. This trailer finally announced a playable character that isn't Sonic, and then I immediately found out that Graff is back!

 

I feel you on this so bad dude. They announce/show a cool thing and literally minutes later they're "no wait screw you" and i'm like, SEGA, come on. No one wanted Pontaff back, no one wanted Classic, and no one wanted even more and more tedious 2D levels. Gimme that fast paced action, a decent story that makes use of the cast. And that's it, i'm set. Two very simple demands. 

[Tenko]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

It's like I said, they can't add those types of animals because then consumers will bring up why they couldn't just play as established characters already. They have to keep the choices and the established cast differentiated or else the idea is even more pointless.

You can make a cat tho yes? Why not Blaze. And a hedgehog, why not *shudders* Shadow or Silver. And a bird, why not Jet etc. I'm not sure that's the reason.

[Tyranno]

I imagine the choice of animals comes down to which ones they can build a sort of universal skeleton and proportions around. Foxes, for instance, would beg for longer tails, which would need their own special animations and whatnot, armadillos would change the back and spine completely, thus affecting what you wear on your back and waist, so long and so forth.

[Nepenthe]

4 minutes ago, Razorsaw said:

Then I feel like we're left at the start. I don't know what else to say here - you can say that you aren't concerned with how fractious the franchise is, but at the end of the day, that doesn't change the fact that it IS fractious. For that reason, I think there's wisdom in both looking beyond our own nose, and in Sega making decisions that run counter to the loudest voices in the fandom, sometimes. I can't deny that what Shaddy described would be a good game in theory, but I'm not wholly convinced it'd fly in 2017, either.

My lack of concern about different factions of thought is that I don't subscribe to belief that each faction is mutually exclusive to itself and that there is no overlap or ability to compromise. Just because I don't like Pontaff doesn't mean I don't want any levity in my Sonic games. Just because I don't want to buy Mania doesn't mean I don't want rolling to come back. And I would assume most fans feel the same way, because we're human beings with human modes of thought that allow for multiple positive opinions on more than one game in the same franchise.

Boxing people in and treating people as stereotypes is ridiculous, and it's even more ridiculous when it's used as an excuse to throw our hands up and say it's totally impossible to make a crowd-pleasing Sonic game. I would much rather this intellectually-lacking defeatism die even fucking faster than the OC creator.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Tenko said:

You can make a cat tho yes? Why not Blaze. And a hedgehog, why not *shudders* Shadow or Silver. And a bird, why not Jet etc. I'm not sure that's the reason.

You already have hedgehog's via Modern and Classic so SEGA likely figured they were a good excuse to respond with "Well we've already got these two hedgehog's" if folks brought up the others.

As far as the cat option and Blaze, don't know what to tell you there. I guess since a big part of the OC is using fire, their excuse would be "Your OC can do the same things, but COOLER" since, you know, Wispons.

As far as the bird thing and the Rogues, those are spin-off cast irrelevant to the main series and likely not very well-known and/or popular because of that so therein lies enough reasoning right there I suppose.

I'm just trying to make the most rational/reasonable excuse here.

[Tyranno]

It's not that I don't think it's possible to make a crowd pleasing Sonic game, it's that I think you need to be prepared to run counter to what some people want, and to make creative decisions outside of that.

"If you try to please all people all of the time", and all that.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Razorsaw said:

It's not that I don't think it's possible to make a crowd pleasing Sonic game, it's that I think you need to be prepared to run counter to what some people want, and to make creative decisions outside of that.

"If you try to please all people all of the time", and all that.

I'm not trying to please all of the people though. And almost no one ask is asking for Sonic Team to do that either.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Razorsaw said:

It's not that I don't think it's possible to make a crowd pleasing Sonic game, it's that I think you need to be prepared to run counter to what some people want, and to make creative decisions outside of that.

"If you try to please all people all of the time", and all that.

...Make enough good games and even those not pleased will find themselves falling into the pleased crowd eventually because you can't deny a good game is good.

[RictalRose0]

The Create a Character doesn't strike me as Sega pandering to their fanbase. No offense but... Sega clearly doesn't know their fanbase, at all. And they haven't for what, seven years now? The Create a Character is just them following the modern trend in gaming to incorporate customization. Like Xenoverse but I feel their main inspiration here is Splatoon. A lot of the clothing options remind me of it, though that might be just because Splatoon and Sonic have a similar aesthetic.

[Tyranno]

"Make good games", okay. That's a clearly defined and not at all nebulous goal that's easily attained and not subject to revisionism.

[Toa Axis]

1 minute ago, Razorsaw said:

It's not that I don't think it's possible to make a crowd pleasing Sonic game, it's that I think you need to be prepared to run counter to what some people want, and to make creative decisions outside of that.

"If you try to please all people all of the time", and all that.

To be fair, I don't think there's any disillusionment with that idea. In any long running series, there will inevitably be those who don't like the direction in which things are going. Obviously the degree to which such things happen will depend on the franchise and the fan base in question, but what you say is a sentiment that is more-or-less accepted.

[Dr. Detective]

It's odd how much more calmer I am about Forces now that this has been revealed. Perhaps it's because I feel I have a bit of a better sense of what they're trying to do. Perhaps it's because the awkwardness of Sonic, Another Sonic, and a random third character no one cared about is being off-set a bit by it being anything you want to make that can share the two styles. 

Or perhaps the weight of finally knowing what it is has been lifted and I can look at it with the semi-full picture in mind. 

I'm not mad at this character creator thing existing really. Aside from the cringey cutscenes that I KNOW are going to happen with Rad the Hedgehog being congratulated by his long lost brother Sonic, the gameplay looks a bit like the thing I kind of want them to try more often where they take separate elements from alternate styles and incorporate them into a gameplay that feels like something you can still call Sonic. Kind of like what they used to do with those old Genesis games, or in another sense, Heroes. 

How much I like or hate this now is going to depend entirely on how much I tolerate how it's incorporated from here on in. 

The fire I had before isn't burning as harshly as it was before despite still thinking this game is a very messy clusterfuck of ideas that don't need to be mushed together. I still really, really just want my 3D game with Sonic and friends going on an actual adventure. I don't feel like that's asking for much.

If they're worried about it not being innovative enough, they really shouldn't. It's been over a decade now. At this point it's definitely going to feel very fresh and new.

[Chris Knopps]

I'd still say Forces spells the end of 3D games in the franchise for a good while.

We'll still have Sonic but I doubt there's going to be anymore big budget AAA attempts for...

A generation or two I'd wager.

Just a more Mania and/or DKC Returns styled focus from here on.

[RictalRose0]

On another note, I get some people wanna give Pontaff the benefit of the doubt, saying "Oh well they improved after Fire & Ice" but the script for this game must have been written around 2014-2015, right after Lost World. Since it's kind of an important part of game development to have the story ready by the time you're done with the basic stuff and the engine. Fire & Ice was last year. This game probably has Lost World quality writing, or maybe Shattered Crystal quality, as in "Not as bad as lost world but still freakin' bland". God please save us. And the rumors of a third writer better be true. I would take anyone, Japanese, Flynn, Boom Staff. Please anyone but Graff and Pontac again.

[Kellan]

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

...Make enough good games and even those not pleased will find themselves falling into the pleased crowd eventually because you can't deny a good game is good.

You absolutely can deny that a good game is good. Have you seen IGN's review of Sonic Adventure? They said that the game had 2D-Sidescrolling sections in it. Unless I'm misremembering Sonic Adventure right now, I'm pretty sure that game didn't have any 2D-Sidescrolling sections. So, they either didn't know what a 2D-Sidescroller was, or they were straight-up lying to their readers. (Or I'm misremembering Sonic Adventure right now, which would be super embarrassing for me.)

I think they also used the term "boost" at some point in the review, but I can forgive them a little bit for that, since it might not be as well-known as a term.

[Tyranno]

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'd still say Forces spells the end of 3D games in the franchise for a good while.

We'll still have Sonic but I doubt there's going to be anymore big budget AAA attempts for...

A generation or two I'd wager.

Just a more Mania and/or DKC Returns styled focus from here on.

man, Sonic 06 didn't even result in that. I remain doubtful.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Razorsaw said:

man, Sonic 06 didn't even result in that. I remain doubtful.

Things then were FAR better off than they are now revolving consumer numbers and/or folks willing to buy games and forgiveness/tolerance levels.

That is no longer the situation, no longer a luxury I'm afraid.

[Tyranno]

Sega is also not likely to sideline its one consistently well off global property (outside of Boom) when it's hurting for franchises that step up to prominence. They almost have to keep putting Sonic out there; you compared him to Donkey Kong, but DK is a middle tier Nintendo property in regards to its relevance to the company's overall mindshare. It's not about luxury, it's about whether they can afford to not release major titles featuring their most popular property.

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Razorsaw said:

Sega is also not likely to sideline its one consistently well off global property (outside of Boom) when it's hurting for franchises that step up to prominence. They almost have to keep putting Sonic out there; you compared him to Donkey Kong, but DK is a middle tier Nintendo property in regards to its relevance to the company's overall mindshare.

It's not sidelining. Making the Sonic franchise purely 2D and/or 2.5D focused for some odd years isn't diminishing the franchise really. It's playing off their most successful/promising focus, a much more successful direction than 3D has been by and large for some time.

So long as Whitehead and his team are kept front and center in charge with these titles while the company focuses on using their crew to up the graphics and amount of content, there you go.

2D and/or 2.5D could bring the franchise back in more ways than 3D has ever been capable of doing until they can find the talented 3D equivalent of the Whitehead team.

[RictalRose0]

3 hours ago, Scar said:

That's literally what Sonic Team did for SA1. They went to South America (Peru I think?) and found inspiration for the Mystic Ruins and Lost World etc. It would certainly be a smart thing to do. I for one would get them to study the classic games, their mechanics, their level design etc. I'd get them to play all of the previous 3D Sonic games good and bad. Get them to understand how a Sonic game should and should not feel. Get them to understand why automation is bad (or try to understand at least why they're using it as a crutch, what obstacles have they not yet been able to overcome. Maybe talk with Headcannon and Taxman. THEN send them off on a holiday for inspiration.

 

Or just hire new people. And this time around, stop firing them over dumb stuff. Or offer them better work conditions so they actually stay. I mean fuck, Sega let the man behind the Hedgehog engine (Yoshihisa Hashimoto) and most of his team go, back in like 2009. They let tons of great programmers, designers, writers and directors go. And what do they have left? Guys like Iizuka and foreign writers like Pontaff that don't even work on site, directors like Kishimoto with terribly bland vision... Just get a new team. Because the current one is either old or just lacks the drive and vision. Get some new talent, or get some of the old team back, anything but really just improve Sonic Team. It's been in shambles for years. 

[Tyranno]

Yeah, that kind of precludes the idea that Forces will absolutely be an inevitable disaster by the majority of people, and that Mania will be a huge success that can instantly be built off of.

If you think the latter is a given, look at Mega Man going from MM9 to the 10th game. Certainly didn't happen there. You can't keep banking on nostalgia forever.

[RictalRose0]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

It's not sidelining. Making the Sonic franchise purely 2D and/or 2.5D focused for some odd years isn't diminishing the franchise really. It's playing off their most successful/promising focus, a much more successful direction than 3D has been by and large for some time.

So long as Whitehead and his team are kept front and center in charge with these titles while the company focuses on using their crew to up the graphics and amount of content, there you go.

2D and/or 2.5D could bring the franchise back in more ways than 3D has ever been capable of doing until they can find the talented 3D equivalent of the Whitehead team.

Or just make Whitehead make a 3D game. How hard can it be? 

[Tenko]

It's just like, how did this idea even enter their heads? From working with TT again on the Sonic Lego pack? No, likely before that. I mean a decent amount of people have wanted to play as the menagery of friends again for a while. Yet I don't recall people largely wanting to create OC' s and play them in game. Did anyone want to play as "Static the Hedgehog"? It doesn't solve the play as the others issue either, as you can't create half the characters with the templates given.

Is it so hard to make the others optional characters. If adding their unique skills could break engine then just have skins to choose from or something like Metal in Sonic Adventure DX.