Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[StaticMania]

There's stuff to do in Sonic Adventure's hub worlds...it's just that everything you'd do is related to emblem hunting. If you don't care about that, then there that goes.

 

Nobody really mugs at Unleashed's hubs too much...people seem to find them okay. Actually I've just never seens anyone said anything bad about them.

[FriendBot]

An aspect of Adventure's hubworld I do like is that it justifies the locations for the levels, it feels like a expansion from 3&K's cutscenes. SA2 did this as well despite not having a hubworld, the locations the levels are in are within a shared area. Pumpkin Hill takes place in the same place Sky Rail is in, Mission Street is also where Radical Highway and of course all the stages that takes place inside or outside the ARK are at the ARK, no duh.

Which is why I'm not too bothered by the fact SA2 doesn't have a hubworld, unlike Colors or Lost World.

[Clewis]

9 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Nobody really mugs at Unleashed's hubs too much...people seem to find them okay. Actually I've just never seens anyone said anything bad about them.

I've seen complaints relating to the hubs where Sonic is largely restricted to jogging around and talking to people.

And I can understand where these complaints are coming from, since I don't think most of the general gaming crowd picks up a Sonic game just to be faced with completing generic Adventure/RPG-esque tasks in order to access the next level.

IF Sonic Team tries out the hub concept again sometime in the future (and I would honestly be surprised if they did), they should really use the style of Unleashed's entrance stages as a base and build from there.

11 hours ago, Jango said:

In the other hand, the Sonic Adventure's hubs, which most people seems too prefer, I find boring AF. They're nice and well made, but all you do is run around from point A to point B untill a cutscene triggers. You almost never need to use one of Sonic's skills to do something or get somewhere different and interesting, except the lightspeed dash, but c'mon?

Agree with this 100%.

[Wraith]

I'll be honest and say I think hubs don't really fit the fast pace of the series and interconnected levels would be better for the pacing and still give them a sense of place. I'm still waiting for a game like Sonic 3 and Knuckles where Sonic travels across a huge land and you get to see how he gets to each place without much transition.

[Dejimon11]

Isn't that what Sonic Mania is trying to do?

[Hero of Legend]

I'm definitely interested in seeing how Mario Odyssey handles the city and forest levels, as he literally seems like he's in a modernized Station Square (as every pointed out ) but also the Mystic Ruins for the latter.

I'd be really cool IMO if Sega looks at this and maybe tries to bring back Adventure-style gameplay. Not now as it'd be way too late for this game, but maybe the next one in 2018?

[Kintor]

56 minutes ago, Hero of Legend said:

I'm definitely interested in seeing how Mario Odyssey handles the city and forest levels, as he literally seems like he's in a modernized Station Square (as every pointed out ) but also the Mystic Ruins for the latter.

I'd be really cool IMO if Sega looks at this and maybe tries to bring back Adventure-style gameplay. Not now as it'd be way too late for this game, but maybe the next one in 2018?

Don't be so eager to praise Mario Odyssey when that game's choice of level design is already proving to be its biggest weakness. Take a look around the net and you'll see that gamers already have many negative things to say about Mario Odyssey, such as the view that Mario (who is basically a cartoon character) doesn't look like right when represented alongside realistically depicted humans. That in actuality Nintendo has failed to learn from Sonic Team's different hub worlds, when Mario Odyssey is ignorantly ploughing into the same problems which made hub worlds so controversial in the first place.

Personally, I think that Sonic Team already has the all experience they need to bring back hubworlds if they so choose. Forget Mario Odyssey, because Nintendo is just fumbling around in the dark with no answers of their own. Rather, Sonic Team should look towards the example set by Sonic Unleashed for how to create new hubworlds. The new style of depicting humans worked perfectly with Sonic Unleashed, as the almost 'Pixar like' designs meshed well with both Sonic and Dr Eggman, that indeed everyone looked like they rightly belonged in the same world.

[Tracker_TD]

17 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Don't be so eager to praise Mario Odyssey when that game's choice of level design is already proving to be its biggest weakness. Take a look around the net and you'll see that gamers already have many negative things to say about Mario Odyssey, such as the view that Mario (who is basically a cartoon character) doesn't look like right when represented alongside realistically depicted humans. That in actuality Nintendo has failed to learn from Sonic Team's different hub worlds, when Mario Odyssey is ignorantly ploughing into the same problems which made hub worlds so controversial in the first place.

Personally, I think that Sonic Team already has the all experience they need to bring back hubworlds if they so choose. Forget Mario Odyssey, because Nintendo is just fumbling around in the dark with no answers of their own. Rather, Sonic Team should look towards the example set by Sonic Unleashed for how to create new hubworlds. The new style of depicting humans worked perfectly with Sonic Unleashed, as the almost 'Pixar like' designs meshed well with both Sonic and Dr Eggman, that indeed everyone looked like they rightly belonged in the same world.

Is this what delusion looks like?

The response to Odyssey has been overwhelmingly positive. I've actually yet to see any overriding criticism of its concept; the general feeling for most is it's about time Mario got back to the open-world gameplay given the last time he did was Sunshine. You seem to have taken the unease from some with the fact Mario is shown with realistic humans (fair does, but it's not like Sonic's not been there, eh?) and spun it into perceiving an overriding disparagement of the entire game. 

And critiquing level design? In a game you haven't played? Do you just mean the open-world concept; the likes of which were used in Mario 64, one of the most critically acclaimed games of all time? 

Bloody baffling. Sonic Team's experience is fair, but Mario's open-world gameplay demonstrated in the likes of 64 and Sunshine batters the everloving shite out of any experience Sonic's had with open hub worlds, even as someone who quite likes them in Adventure and Unleashed. 

(Sure are a lot of folks here feeling the need to arbitrarily 'defend' Sonic from Mario recently...) 

[Badnik Mechanic]

16 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Don't be so eager to praise Mario Odyssey when that game's choice of level design is already proving to be its biggest weakness.

[ ...]

Mario (who is basically a cartoon character) doesn't look like right when represented alongside realistically depicted humans.

Art Style != Level Design.

[Jango]

Don't be so eager to praise Mario Odyssey when that game's choice of level design is already proving to be its biggest weakness. Take a look around the net and you'll see that gamers already have many negative things to say about Mario Odyssey, such as the view that Mario (who is basically a cartoon character) doesn't look like right when represented alongside realistically depicted humans. That in actuality Nintendo has failed to learn from Sonic Team's different hub worlds, when Mario Odyssey is ignorantly ploughing into the same problems which made hub worlds so controversial in the first place.

Personally, I think that Sonic Team already has the all experience they need to bring back hubworlds if they so choose. Forget Mario Odyssey, because Nintendo is just fumbling around in the dark with no answers of their own. Rather, Sonic Team should look towards the example set by Sonic Unleashed for how to create new hubworlds. The new style of depicting humans worked perfectly with Sonic Unleashed, as the almost 'Pixar like' designs meshed well with both Sonic and Dr Eggman, that indeed everyone looked like they rightly belonged in the same world.

Is this what delusion looks like?

The response to Odyssey has been overwhelmingly positive. I've actually yet to see any overriding criticism of its concept; the general feeling for most is it's about time Mario got back to the open-world gameplay given the last time he did was Sunshine. You seem to have taken the unease from some with the fact Mario is shown with realistic humans (fair does, but it's not like Sonic's not been there, eh?) and spun it into perceiving an overriding disparagement of the entire game. 

And critiquing level design? In a game you haven't played? Do you just mean the open-world concept; the likes of which were used in Mario 64, one of the most critically acclaimed games of all time? 

Bloody baffling. Sonic Team's experience is fair, but Mario's open-world gameplay demonstrated in the likes of 64 and Sunshine batters the everloving shite out of any experience Sonic's had with open hub worlds, even as someone who quite likes them in Adventure and Unleashed. 

(Sure are a lot of folks here feeling the need to arbitrarily 'defend' Sonic from Mario recently...) 

Maybe so, but Spyro nailed both of their asses (Mario 64 and Sonic Adventure). People compare Mario 64 to Crash, when one is an open-world platformer and the other a linear platformer, almost arcade-like. Now, the right game to compare would be Spyro, which is superior in every aspect.

But back to the hub discussion: I actually think Sonic Team will make one for this game. Wonder if each Sonic will have its own point of view... or even its own hub.

[Tracker_TD]

3 minutes ago, Jango said:

Maybe so, but Spyro nailed both of their asses (Mario 64 and Sonic Adventure).

...nah. 

Mario 64's world design was suited to what it needed to do pretty much perfectly: it gained its accolades for a reason. For comparison, I may see Sunshine's worlds as perfecting 3D open world Mario design, but I still see Sunshine as inferior overall due to a plethora of rather... unfun missions. 

From the Spyro games I've played, it works but it's not as memorable as Mario at all. That's a credit to the strong design in Mario. 

[Kintor]

10 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

...nah. 

Mario 64's world design was suited to what it needed to do pretty much perfectly: it gained its accolades for a reason. For comparison, I may see Sunshine's worlds as perfecting 3D open world Mario design, but I still see Sunshine as inferior overall due to a plethora of rather... unfun missions. 

From the Spyro games I've played, it works but it's not as memorable as Mario at all. That's a credit to the strong design in Mario. 

You're undertaking some serious historical revisionism to call Mario 64 an open world game. By design open world games are dynamic, with characters and events interacting regardless of player input. In contrast, the 'world' of Mario 64 is static; a handful of motionless Toads that do exactly the same thing (read: nothing) every time the player boots up the game. As such, Mario Odyssey is Nintendo's first attempt at an open world game (in tandem with the latest Zelda), they have no experience in the matter and it shows. The reaction to Mario Odyssey is one of trepidation, in a genre that Nintendo has yet to prove themselves.

This is why Sonic Team shouldn't pay attention to Mario Odyssey. Nintendo is learning how to make open world games for the first time and it remains to be seen if their experiments will prove successful or not. This means that it's far better for Sonic Team to draw upon their own experience, as refined by Sonic Unleashed, when it comes to reintroducing hub world. Assuming of course that Sonic Team actually has any desire to make new hub worlds or not.

[Tracker_TD]

5 minutes ago, Kintor said:

You're undertaking some serious historical revisionism to call Mario 64 an open world game. By design open world games are dynamic, with characters and events interacting regardless of player input. In contrast, the 'world' of Mario 64 is static; a handful of motionless Toads that do exactly the same thing (read: nothing) every time the player boots up the game. As such, Mario Odyssey is Nintendo's first attempt at an open world game (in tandem with the latest Zelda), they have no experience in the matter and it shows. The reaction to Mario Odyssey is one of trepidation, in a genre that Nintendo has yet to prove themselves.

In that case, your idea that Sonic Team have any experience in "open-world" design is nonsense; they've done nothing more than Nintendo did in say, Sunshine. 

And the reaction is still overwhelmingly positive. Saying "f-folks are concerned and stuff!" a bunch doesn't make it true, funnily enough. 

[Kintor]

4 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

In that case, your idea that Sonic Team have any experience in "open-world" design is nonsense; they've done nothing more than Nintendo did in say, Sunshine. 

And the reaction is still overwhelmingly positive. Saying "f-folks are concerned and stuff!" a bunch doesn't make it true, funnily enough. 

I've never said anything about Sonic Team and open worlds; instead I've been using the phrase 'hub world'. There is a great deal of difference between Sonic Adventure's Station Square (a hubworld) and Shenmue's Yokosuka (an open world), even though both games run on the Dreamcast's hardware. The level of complexity required for an open world isn't necessary for Sonic games, when the existing hub worlds are already sufficient.

In that same regard, Nintendo have never made an open world game before. Since the level of complexity in games like Skyrim and GTA V are far greater than anything that Nintendo has attempted in their own games. The fact that the latest Mario and Zelda games are being designed as open world games for the first time is an acknowledgement of how popular the genre has become, along with the noticeable lack of open world games on Nintendo platforms.

Even so, it's would be bad idea for Sonic Team to follow Mario Odyssey. This latest Mario game is an unproven experiment, a foray into a genre that Nintendo knows nothing about and it might just prove to be a disaster. Far better to let Sonic Team develop hub worlds, as they already have proven experience with how to implement hub worlds in Sonic games.

[Tracker_TD]

5 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I've never said anything about Sonic Team and open worlds; instead I've been using the phrase 'hub world'. There is a great deal of difference between Sonic Adventure's Station Square (a hubworld) and Shenmue's Yokosuka (an open world), even though both games run on the Dreamcast's hardware. The level of complexity required for an open world isn't necessary for Sonic games, when the existing hub worlds are already sufficient.

 

In that same regard, Nintendo have never made an open world game before. Since the level of complexity in games like Skyrim and GTA V are far greater than anything that Nintendo has attempted in their own games. The fact that the latest Mario and Zelda games are being designed as open world games for the first time is an acknowledgement of how popular the genre has become, along with the noticeable lack of open world games on Nintendo platforms.

 

Even so, it's would be bad idea for Sonic Team to follow Mario Odyssey. This latest Mario game is an unproven experiment, a foray into a genre that Nintendo knows nothing about and it might just prove to be a disaster. Far better to let Sonic Team develop hub worlds, as they already have proven experience with how to implement hub worlds in Sonic games.

Mario Odyssey is no more "open-world" than Sunshine. Your definition for open-world seems considerably different to most using it in reference to the former. 

It wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea for Sonic Team to follow Odyssey for inspiration; because it is proven through games like Sunshine. That's why they're bringing it back; fan demand. 

...bloody hell this is off-topic.

[Kintor]

Just now, Tracker_TD said:

Mario Odyssey is no more "open-world" than Sunshine. Your definition for open-world seems considerably different to anyone using it to refer to Odyssey. 

It wouldn't be a bad idea for Sonic Team to follow Odyssey; because it is proven through games like Sunshine. That's why they're bringing it back; fan demand. 

...bloody hell this is off-topic.

Mario 64 isn't an open world game and neither is Mario Sunshine. As a matter of fact, no Mario game before Mario Odyssey could reasonably be called an open world game. Because with Mario Odyssey Nintendo is stepping into unknown territory, as they encroach on the domain of Rockstar and Bethesda. Mario Odyssey could end up being a failed experiment, since Nintendo has no experience in making open world games. This is why it's a mistake to suggest that Sonic Team should copy Mario Odyssey. Sonic Team knows what they are doing with hubworld. Nintendo has no idea what they're getting themselves into by trying to make open world games.

[Celestia]

Just now, Kintor said:

Nintendo has no idea what they're getting themselves into by trying to make open world games.

Which is probably why Monolith Soft, who does have experience with open world games, is helping out with Zelda.

Anyway, how about we knock this off instead of going in circles for probably two or three pages?

[Tracker_TD]

3 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Mario 64 isn't an open world game and neither is Mario Sunshine. As a matter of fact, no Mario game before Mario Odyssey could reasonably be called an open world game. Because with Mario Odyssey Nintendo is stepping into unknown territory, as they encroach on the domain of Rockstar and Bethesda. Mario Odyssey could end up being a failed experiment, since Nintendo has no experience in making open world games. This is why it's a mistake to suggest that Sonic Team should copy Mario Odyssey. Sonic Team knows what they are doing with hubworld. Nintendo has no idea what they're getting themselves into by trying to make open world games.

I just said, fair play if Mario 64/Sunshine aren't open world.

By your definition neither is Odyssey. Have you actually watched any Odyssey footage? It's literally the next in the 64/Sunshine style! It's not some interconnected thing like Skyrim, it's just the levels are more open than those in say, 3D World. Shite, technically Nintendo do have open-world under their belt with Xenoblade anyway.

If you're not going to read, then hush already.

- EDIT: Caught Celestia's post just, RIP

[TB100]

9 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Mario 64 isn't an open world game and neither is Mario Sunshine. As a matter of fact, no Mario game before Mario Odyssey could reasonably be called an open world game. Because with Mario Odyssey Nintendo is stepping into unknown territory, as they encroach on the domain of Rockstar and Bethesda. Mario Odyssey could end up being a failed experiment, since Nintendo has no experience in making open world games. This is why it's a mistake to suggest that Sonic Team should copy Mario Odyssey. Sonic Team knows what they are doing with hubworld. Nintendo has no idea what they're getting themselves into by trying to make open world games.

Sonic 06 says hi. and remember Mario and Sonic have very different ideologies for how to make a game. So comparing Mario logic to Sonic logic is just a moot point.  So just to move on, Do you think the Switch version will be the weaker version of the three, considering that Nintendo ports in the past have been noticeably weaker then there HD siblings (Unleashed, Sonic 4, Generations, etc.)

[Kintor]

11 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

I just said, fair play if Mario 64/Sunshine aren't open world.

By your definition neither is Odyssey. Have you actually watched any Odyssey footage? It's literally the next in the 64/Sunshine style! It's not some interconnected thing like Skyrim, it's just the levels are more open than those in say, 3D World. Shite, technically Nintendo do have open-world under their belt with Xenoblade anyway.

If you're not going to read, then hush already.

Just be careful when you use terminology like 'open world', you need to understand which genre you're actually talking about. Mario Odyssey is different from Mario 64 and Sunshine; it's attempting to copy the open world style of modern games just like the latest Zelda is attempting to do so. It make Mario Odyssey something of an odd duck in the Mario franchise, unable to rely on earlier gameplay mechanics while at the same time going up against the proven titans of the open world genre.

 

12 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Which is probably why Monolith Soft, who does have experience with open world games, is helping out with Zelda.

Anyway, how about we knock this off instead of going in circles for probably two or three pages?

You are the mod after all; if you ask for this conversation to stop it will happen. Regardless, I'm simply responding to the post in this thread which brought up Mario Odyssey in the first place. Which was out of place to begin to with, when Mario Odyssey has nothing in common with Sonic games.

[Tracker_TD]

8 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Mario Odyssey is different from Mario 64 and Sunshine

No. No it isn't. That is literally, objectively incorrect. They're the same gameplay styles, and you're literally ignoring that for a bogus argument. I at least want that made clear, if only for education's sake.

ANYWAY, regarding that earlier discussion on the glitch thing:

On 20/01/2017 at 8:52 PM, Terriful said:

Here's the gif. Pulled from the site. 

I think it's mildly interesting (and it looks nifty), but on the whole I'm assuming it's just to further the whole "shit's destroyed" thing shown in the first trailer. That and the whole "what is it" thing; ties into the mystery innit. 

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Mario Odyssey is different from Mario 64 and Sunshine; it's attempting to copy the open world style of modern games just like the latest Zelda is attempting to do so.

Where exactly are you getting this from? What we've heard from Nintendo themselves is that Odyssey is a return to the 64/Sunshine style of games, as compared to the Galaxies/3D* games. I think it's reasonable to assume it's not an exact return to that format, but I don't see reason to believe it's some radically new idea.

Anyway I think it's way too early to even start guessing what Sonic may be able to learn from that game, considering all we've seen is a single trailer. It'll be awhile before we're even entirely sure what we're dealing with, much less how it works out and what if anything could apply to Sonic.

Quote

I think it's mildly interesting (and it looks nifty), but on the whole I'm assuming it's just to further the whole "shit's destroyed" thing shown in the first trailer. That and the whole "what is it" thing; ties into the mystery innit. 

I'm guessing that or it meaning nothing at all, just representing that they don't have a proper page up for it yet. I don't think it's something we should be reading much into.

[Kintor]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Where exactly are you getting this from? What we've heard from Nintendo themselves is that Odyssey is a return to the 64/Sunshine style of games, as compared to the Galaxies/3D* games. I think it's reasonable to assume it's not an exact return to that format, but I don't see reason to believe it's some radically new idea.

Anyway I think it's way too early to even start guessing what Sonic may be able to learn from that game, considering all we've seen is a single trailer. It'll be awhile before we're even entirely sure what we're dealing with, much less how it works out and what if anything could apply to Sonic.

This conversation is at an end but if you really want to know I've just been following the terminology already brought up in this thread. Tracker_TD called Mario Sunshine and then Mario 64 open world games, a common assumption amongst Nintendo fans lately. In response I've been arguing that the idea of 'open world' doesn't fit with pervious Mario games and that because of this discrepancy there is nothing for Sonic team to copy.

[Wraith]

3 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

Isn't that what Sonic Mania is trying to do?

Yes, and that's what other Sonic games should try and do too.

[Celestia]

Quote

This conversation is at an end

Yes, I agree!

-

Anyway, if SEGA does decide to actually show off more of this game before Mania is out (doubtful, but can we truly predict SEGA? Can we?), what would be a good time for it? I'm going to make the guess everybody makes every year for Sonic announcements that never actually comes true, just to get it out of the way: Feb 2, Hedgehog Day, etc.