What's The Best Way To Introduce A New Anthro Character?

[Bolt]

 

I don't even think this is really a problem anymore. Sure people make jabs at Sonic's extended cast all the time but I don't think anyone would actually care that much if they were put into games at this point.  Nobody cared when the Deadly Six were introduced and they were actually pretty bad. It's not a case of them not being allowed to do something anymore. They're just...being Sega. 

 

I don't care if they stick in characters for no reason, do more than just have them standing around though! Let them have fun too! Doesn't have to be super serious.

[Writer's Blah]

Because, if I'm interpreting Nepenthe's argument correctly, it's because a secondary character being present in a game, whether they're new or old, doesn't equate to them suddenly holding any kind of necessary relevance. I mean, Generations dropped the cow with how many characters were in that game, and yet how many of them actually mattered past Sonic, Tails, and Eggman? If SEGA's not really doing anything with their already established characters, then going and just making a new one doesn't really change all that much. In fact, it arguably improves things because hey, a secondary character is being paid attention to. I think that's what SEGA was aiming for with the Deadly Six in Lost World. Think about how easy it would've been to replace the Deadly Six with like, any generic villain characters. Heck, if you want to play the "they should utilize the characters they already have" card, you could've replaced them with Fang, Bark, Bean, and the like, and it would've been really easy fanservice. But I'd venture to guess the reason why SEGA didn't do that (aside from the fact that they've never brought any characters back from retirement ever) is because it didn't suit the game's needs. Lost World was created to be an experimental project, and thus they couldn't really have anything too fancy with characters going on. The Deadly Six are a clean slate, no fan is going to be previously attached to them and whine when their characters aren't depicted the way they imagined them, and they easily fit the mold SEGA wants for the game. Think of it this way: SEGA comes up with a game concept, decides what kind of game they want it to be stylistically, and then bases its character usage around that. It's not about creating an entry which lines itself up perfectly with previous events from prior games, it's about making a game that they think people will enjoy and won't require huge amounts of background knowledge to understand. Mind you, it's not what I'd want from the series. I'd love to see characters arcs be utilized to their maximum potential. But I'm a story guy, and SEGA is a game development studio, not a television network. Making what they want to make is probably what's going to be healthiest for the franchise in the long run.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

if they were to introduce new guys then the writers need to know the characters place in the series. If they are main character in there own game thats cool. but the minute they make them take the spotlight from Sonic and others is when I get annoyed. This was one reason I was annoyed at Sonic 06.

[Bolt]

Who counts as the 'others'?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Who counts as the 'others'?

the main characters ie Tails/Knux/Amy/Eggman

[Bolt]

But Knux and Amy have barely done anything in years. :c

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

But Knux and Amy have barely done anything in years. :c

let them do something then.

[Bolt]

I'd like them to, but I have little confidence in the current writers. :[

[Nepenthe]

 

I don't even think this is really a problem anymore. Sure people make jabs at Sonic's extended cast all the time but I don't think anyone would actually care that much if they were put into games at this point.  Nobody cared when the Deadly Six were introduced and they were actually pretty bad. It's not a case of them not being allowed to do something anymore. They're just...being Sega. 

 

Nobody minded the Deadly Six because they're non-playable villains without the reputational baggage of the extended cast. Considering that some reviews of Gens saw fit to note the cast merely being there despite doing nothing was a negative, that the fanbase has deluded itself into holding fans of these characters accountable for "proving" that they "deserve" to continue even being used every now and again in secondary ways, that we constantly argue that every little thing about the games must be perfect before we even talk about reintroduction, that "shitty friends" is even still a thing, I would wager the extended cast is still largely disparaged and unwanted. I'd also chalk up any perceived apathy to the fact that people are generally happy with the state of things as they've been for seven years and thus see no need to expend energy complaining about them. I mean yeah, I agree Sega is dumb for trying to reconcile their mysterious absence from the universe instead of just writing more intelligently, but this is also one of the few knee-jerk reactions that makes sense given the tide of criticism they were up against.

[Regen]

I do think that sometimes things should be let go though. I think it devalues characters when they are paraded in every game. Take Shadow, I personally think he should never have appeared after Adventure 2. He was dead and then brought back to life in a bullshit way to please fans. Pleasing fans shouldn't be the top of the priority list in all cases. Aerith has been devalued in the list of appearances she has been in and the same with the Boss in MGS. Shadow's death has been completely devalued of all significance.

I know Shadow is an extreme example, but I think it's best if some characters are just left alone if their story has been concluded in a satisfying way. I think that's what Diogenes was thinking when he discussed 'potential'. Sure, there's potential for Shadow and any other character being something else, but there's also 'potential' for Maria to come back from the dead and do something too. There's vague potential for anything. I just don't think that vague potential is worth it if it doesn't have as strong a punch as the original concluded story.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Regen

[Bolt]

I swore I read that it was always planned from the beginning to bring Shadow back and give him his own game, but other times I read that it was fan demand. Conflicting details, and I don't recall where I got what info from, or which one is more true.

[Regen]

I swore I read that it was always planned from the beginning to bring Shadow back and give him his own game, but other times I read that it was fan demand. Conflicting details, and I don't recall where I got what info from, or which one is more true.

If it was planned to bring him back then it's still weak. I strongly suspect fan demand played into it, but even if it didn't, it's still a poor decision to bring Shadow back after his death. I really liked Shadow in Adventure 2, especially when I was a kid and played it. His death seemed super epic! But now, I don't even think about it at all because it's been devalued of all significance.

Take Gamma from Adventure 1, imagine how devalued his character would be if he came back from the dead? I'd be pretty pissed and I imaging most people here would too.

I'm not against Shadow coming back because I hate the character if anyone mistakes it that way, I'm against it because I think his story finished beautifully and didn't need to be continued. I wouldn't mind if he was an unlockable secret character of something, I just think it would have been better if his plot arc finished.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Regen

[Bolt]

If it was planned to bring him back then it's still weak. I strongly suspect fan demand played into it, but even if it didn't, it's still a poor decision to bring Shadow back after his death. I really liked Shadow in Adventure 2, especially when I was a kid and played it. His death seemed super epic! But now, I don't even think about it at all because it's been devalued of all significance.

Take Gamma from Adventure 1, imagine how devalued his character would be if he came back from the dead? I'd be pretty pissed and I imaging most people here would too.

I'm not against Shadow coming back because I hate the character if anyone mistakes it that way, I'm against it because I think his story finished beautifully and didn't need to be continued. I wouldn't mind if he was an unlockable secret character of something, I just think it would have been better if his plot arc finished.

Well, I played SA2 in hindsight, because I played several games with Shadow (including his game) before that, so the ending just make me chuckle instead of taking it seriously. I found it lame too that Shadow 'died' but Sonic was perfectly fine. But, Shadow is my favorite character, so I'm likely biased. I can see why people can be mad about it...but I just never personally saw it.

Also the Archie comics brought him back before the games did even.

[Nepenthe]

@Regen None of that matters. None of it. And if people had the balls to take this argument to the most logical conclusion then they wouldn't even be arguing for this series' continued existence in light of its numerous missteps and failures to recognize or live up to potential.

I literally don't care that Shadow had an arc of development anymore than Tails fans care that he's had about two or three. Shadow has a distinct personality, moral center, and set of powers I want to keep seeing used in the games. That's all I'm actually obligated to explain, because a character settling down into a role of being a recurring face is a perfectly valid path to take. This whole insistence that I need to jump through hoops and prove there's infinite depth for grand, Shakespearean literary storytelling in a fucking cartoon platformer is bollocks posturing, a sentiment of "fuck your preferences, they don't matter (but mine do of course, because I'm gonna continue bitching for what I want.)"

Again this is art, not a sports draft, and ultimately the only characters the franchise actually needs is Sonic and Eggman. Everyone else is a freeloader.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

I think it's just new MAIN characters, that are the problem. I see few people complain about the Deadly Six.
....Then again, I see few people complain about Sticks.... So hmm.


When you bring in Silver, your story probably will have to treat him like a main character again because of the whole "came from the future" aspect, you don't do that lightly. Same with Blaze. So they're difficult characters to work with that need severe limitation and planning.

Characters like Cream are difficult because an adventure is an unnatural envirement for them. So those are characters that need limitation. But they work as faces in the crowd, kinda what Amy and Knuckles were in Lost world. Representing "the common citizen in need" so to speak. So they're useful as a possible cameo and enriching of the world.


And then you have characters like Nack, Metal Sonic, the Babylon Rogues, Gun, Rouge the Bat.
They are easy to put in a story, don't necesairely have to be a main character, they can just be a one stage hindrance or complication, they make the story more dynamic.
Quickly show up as a boss fight and them leave again.
Nack fighting with Sonic over the emeralds, that's fun. Metal Sonic to be a Face among Eggman's robot minions, that's great.
While the Babylon Rogues were never used in that context yet, they could also work very well as a mere stage obstacle/ boss fight.
They don't have to take attention away from Sonic or Eggman. They work perfectly fine as complications/ consequences/ additional circumstances to the core Sonic-Eggman narrative.
Create diffrent kinds of set pieces, adventures, boss battles and conflicts so that the eternal "Sonic fights giant monster/ robot' thing doesn't get too stale.


Altough a bigger issue is, do we need NEW characters? And to that I say no. I think we got a character representing every possible story situation you want. No need to give us a new exposition professor, we got Tails, or Pickle in case of emergency.
No need for evil rivals, we got Jet and Metal Sonic, possibly Knuckles and Shadow on a bad day.
No need for faces in the crowd or representatives of the goverment, we got Cream, Rouge and Shadow, possibly GUN and the president in case of emergency.
We got Detectives, ninja's, pirates, robot minions, everything you can possibly want, so yeah.

So no, don't bend over backwards to get them in every game, but bring em up here and there does spice up the adventure.


I'm all for the occasional straight forward Sonic 4 esque game, but to apply this design philoophy to Sonic as a whole is robbing him from huge chunks of his appeal and purpose.


But yeah, the topic, best way to introduce a new one?
Well, make sure there isn't an already established character that can easily replace the new character.
Don't push him into everyone's face.
I like how Shadow in Sonic adventure 2 doesn't immediatly take the front stage, he remains Eggman's faithful lackey in the first 2/3ths.
And yeah, don't make the new character Sonic's new best friend or something, give them their purpose and make them leave when they're done.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Roger_van_der_weide

[Kuzu]

If it was planned to bring him back then it's still weak. I strongly suspect fan demand played into it, but even if it didn't, it's still a poor decision to bring Shadow back after his death. I really liked Shadow in Adventure 2, especially when I was a kid and played it. His death seemed super epic! But now, I don't even think about it at all because it's been devalued of all significance.

Take Gamma from Adventure 1, imagine how devalued his character would be if he came back from the dead? I'd be pretty pissed and I imaging most people here would too.

I'm not against Shadow coming back because I hate the character if anyone mistakes it that way, I'm against it because I think his story finished beautifully and didn't need to be continued. I wouldn't mind if he was an unlockable secret character of something, I just think it would have been better if his plot arc finished.

The reason Shadow came back was because he was popular; whether you like it or not, that is a valid and justified reason for bringing a character back. It doesn't matter if his character arc was finished, people liked what Shadow brought and Sega tried to alleviate fan expectation by bringing him back. 

If we followed this logic of "Characters should be done after their arc is over", then logically every single character should have been dropped already barring Sonic & Eggman. So that reasoning is bullshit to me.

Really, this whole "Characters need X reason to appear" has really just grated on fucking nerves on that this point; I really don't care anymore if the Master Emerald is mentioned when Knuckles shows up, or if there is some type of magical time-dimensional plot for Silver or Blaze. If Sega cared that much about narrative cohesion, there would have never been shit like that Sonic bible to begin with. This series has such laughably simple plot lines, I'm surprised people are still so hung up whenever somebody appears without some elaborate explanation. Like....people seriously complained about Blaze randomly showing up in Generations and I'm like "so what :V" 

 

 

Anyway, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with introducing a new Anthro character, but at this point is it really needed? If Sega found a niche for them in one game, sure but then what? They become another recurring character doomed to make few appearances after?

[Regen]

@Regen None of that matters. None of it. And if people had the balls to take this argument to the most logical conclusion then they wouldn't even be arguing for this series' continued existence in light of its numerous missteps and failures to recognize or live up to potential.

I literally don't care that Shadow had an arc of development anymore than Tails fans care that he's had about two or three. Shadow has a distinct personality, moral center, and set of powers I want to keep seeing used in the games. That's all I'm actually obligated to explain, because a character settling down into a role of being a recurring face is a perfectly valid path to take. This whole insistence that I need to jump through hoops and prove there's infinite depth for grand, Shakespearean literary storytelling in a fucking cartoon platformer is bollocks posturing, a sentiment of "fuck your preferences, they don't matter (but mine do of course, because I'm gonna continue bitching for what I want.)"

Again this is art, not a sports draft, and ultimately the only characters the franchise actually needs is Sonic and Eggman. Everyone else is a freeloader.

Look, I don't mind if you want to see Shadow again, that's cool, because you most probably will, although it'll be a terrible cameo or something knowing SEGA. And yeah, you don't have to prove that Shadow needs to be in the games. It's like I don't have to prove that Metal Sonic needs to be in the games. I like him because he looks fucking cool and he's a robot. I'm aware that in narrative matters Metal Sonic really doesn't contribute anything.

I'm not necessarily against Shadow appearing in future games. If he's an unlockable character or secret non-canon boss or something I'm fine with that. Even if he has unlockable non-cannon stages I'd be happy. I actually wish he'd been playable in Generations outside of mods. What I take issue with is his appearances in the game's plots, because they have always been terrible and have devalued how brilliant his ending was in Sonic Adventure 2. Yeah, it's partly a writing issue, but it's also the problem that he had a well concluded storyline that got horribly brought back for the mere reason of fanservice.

It's perfectly valid that Shadow can become a recurring villain of the games but that doesn't mean it should be done. It devalues what Shadow was and turns him into a common monster of the week. I don't complain when Dr Neo Cortex was brought back from assumed death in Crash Bandicoot because I don't value the story in Crash games. I do value the story of Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2.

So yeah, you can shrug your shoulders and say 'I don't care if he keeps making plot appearances because I think Shadow's cool' but I don't think that respects Shadow's role in Sonic Adventure 2. I know you aren't happy because everyone attacks Shadow nowadays and he's mostly never going to appear again. I really am sorry for that. My argument might sound similar to what these people say but it's very different. I say this because I respect Shadow as a character and don't like seeing him being dragged around in the mud out of his grave.

And yeah, on this issue that I don't appreciate everybody's concerns and wishes or whatever. First of all, I am showing compromise, because I don't mind Shadow being playable and making non-canon secret stages or whatever. It's not like I'm doing this out of spite because I hate Shadow. Secondly, so fucking what if I don't appreciate everyone's concerns. I mean yeah, that sounds harsh, but I'm not going to appeal to everyone. Someone may think Bean the Dynamite is fucking rad but I really don't think he should ever be brought back. Someone will get upset by that, they will say he has potential, but unless I hear a really good argument for his potential I'm perfectly happy to not see Sonic Team go down that route. In the same vein, you might be sick of seeing Tails and want a break from him in the next game. I wouldn't want that, but it's pefectly acceptable. We can't all walk around eggshells expressing our opinion. 

Also keep in mind this is completely hypothetical, the damage has already been done. SEGA's fucked up his character so his role in Sonic Adventure 2 has been totally squandered. I only wished they treated his character with more respect. I mean he might as well just appear in every Sonic game now.

The reason Shadow came back was because he was popular; whether you like it or not, that is a valid and justified reason for bringing a character back. It doesn't matter if his character arc was finished, people liked what Shadow brought and Sega tried to alleviate fan expectation by bringing him back. 

If we followed this logic of "Characters should be done after their arc is over", then logically every single character should have been dropped already barring Sonic & Eggman. So that reasoning is bullshit to me.

Really, this whole "Characters need X reason to appear" has really just grated on fucking nerves on that this point; I really don't care anymore if the Master Emerald is mentioned when Knuckles shows up, or if there is some type of magical time-dimensional plot for Silver or Blaze. If Sega cared that much about narrative cohesion, there would have never been shit like that Sonic bible to begin with. This series has such laughably simple plot lines, I'm surprised people are still so hung up whenever somebody appears without some elaborate explanation. Like....people seriously complained about Blaze randomly showing up in Generations and I'm like "so what :V" 

 

 

Anyway, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with introducing a new Anthro character, but at this point is it really needed? If Sega found a niche for them in one game, sure but then what? They become another recurring character doomed to make few appearances after?

Shadow coming back is valid but it doesn't mean it was right. It was valid for Sonic to be transformed into a Werehog but that doesn't mean it was a good decision.

And no, we don't need to drop every character. Some characters are introduced to be series mainstrays and some are introduced and characterised as one-off villains or heroes. Shadow was the latter, sorry but it's true. Sonic Team might have intended Shadow to have become rival of the week but he wasn't characterised in that way and it's devalued his characters as a result. Same with other characters I like, such as Metal Sonic. But Shadow is even more special because of how poignant his death was. That feeling of his death scene has been completely and utterly devalued. 

I'm not against him appearing. If you think he's cool and want to play as him like I said above that's fine by me. I just think he should been left alone in the plot. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Regen

[Kuzu]

 

Shadow coming back is valid but it doesn't mean it was right. It was valid for Sonic to be transformed into a Werehog but that doesn't mean it was a good decision.

And no, we don't need to drop every character. Some characters are introduced to be series mainstrays and some are introduced and characterised as one-off villains or heroes. Shadow was the latter, sorry but it's true. Sonic Team might have intended Shadow to have become rival of the week but he wasn't characterised in that way and it's devalued his characters as a result. Same with other characters I like, such as Metal Sonic. But Shadow is even more special because of how poignant his death was. That feeling of his death scene has been completely and utterly devalued. 

I'm not against him appearing. If you think he's cool and want to play as him like I said above that's fine by me. I just think he should been left alone in the plot. 

I don't really care what you think is "right" or not, because I'm only obligated to care about my opinion in this case and in my opinion, there was nothing inherently wrong with bringing Shadow back. If he was a popular and well liked character and Sega felt like they could do more with him, then they have every right to do so as the creators. 

And unless you are apart of the development process, you really cannot make claims about what purposes some characters serve or not; like literally, how would you even know the likes or Knuckles or Blaze would be mainstays? What about those characters make their presence anymore inherent than Shadow's?

[Wraith]

Shadow wouldn't actually be a villain if he showed up in the games again. Nothing seems to imply that. If they go along with how his arc went he'd just be a straight good guy. His methods and philosophies don't line up with Sonic all the time so that would cause some friction there, but he doesn't need to have the rival label all the time. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Wraith

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, I'm not sure about where the villain talk is coming from when SA2 sought to redeem him as a hero at the end anyway. Not recognizing that pivotal turn of character seems to be just as disrespectful, if not more so, than fans having the audacity of wanting to see him utilized more appropriately in his current incarnation.

Shadow is only an example of my overall point anyway so the focus is misguided. The point I'm making is that no one here has any rational authority to demand people to justify why they want something unnecessary to be used in the future of the franchise beyond simply their interest in seeing that thing in the future, particularly if they're not willing to admit they also like unnecessary shit too that objectively has no more worth than other people's preferences in the grand scheme. It puts a burden of proof on people that you yourself haven't fulfilled anyway which, again, is laughable, particularly with a franchise as lackadaisical about plot as Sonic is. "While Tails and Knuckles skirt by with shit characterization and terrible utilization, prove to me what Shadow and Cream *really* bring to the table, else I'm going to dismiss your claims of potential as meaningless, irrational, emotionally-dependant nonsense. You should let go of your arbitrary preferences and instead enjoy my also-arbitrary preferences." Lo-fucking-L, get the fuck outta here.

In short, unless you're going to start asking the main cast to start being written in a western literary style where they always grow, always change, always have a definitive arc, and always heavily contribute in every single appearance, then secondary cast doesn't need to be held to that standard either. If Tails can dick around in Unleashed, so can anyone else in the games if they can reasonably appear within the confines of that story. That's my point.

[Regen]

The point I'm making is that no one here has any rational authority to demand people to justify why they want something unnecessary to be used in the future of the franchise beyond simply their interest in seeing that thing in the future, particularly if they're not willing to admit they also like unnecessary shit too that objectively has no more worth than other people's preferences in the grand scheme. It puts a burden of proof on people that you yourself haven't fulfilled anyway which, again, is laughable, particularly with a franchise as lackadaisical about plot as Sonic is. 

Oh no, of course not. I've already said that you don't need to justify why you want the character to be playable, as a boss, in stages or what not. If you think he's cool and want to play as him/her, power to you.

I do however think you have a burden of proof to state why he/she should still be in the plot. I have a burden of proof to state why he/she shouldn't be in the plot. That's how arguments work. We both have burdens of proof. In the case of Shadow, I just think it would have been better if Shadow remained dead at the end of Adventure 2 because his sacrifice has been completely devalued. I think it would have been much better if he remained like Gamma. Gamma's death is still a very powerful scene, whilst Shadow's death has lost all significance. Imagine if Gamma got paraded about willy-nilly in the plot, that's how I feel about Shadow,

And yeah, the Sonic franchise has a really weak plot nowadays, but that's not always been the case and it's not something that I actually defend or support. I want a minimalist plot but that doesn't mean it should be complete bananas like Generations. I just want something more nuanced and expressionate. I really want Sonic's plot to get back on track, that's why this whole argument is hypothetical.

In short, unless you're going to start asking the main cast to start being written in a western literary style where they always grow, always change, always have a definitive arc, and always heavily contribute in every single appearance, then secondary cast doesn't need to be held to that standard either. If Tails can dick around in Unleashed, so can anyone else in the games if they can reasonably appear within the confines of that story. That's my point.

This is the problem here, I do want every character to be written well. It doesn't need to be in a western style (not quite sure why you used that term), but I do think the games should have much better told stories. Generations is a great game but I'd never mark it higher than an 8/10 because of how fucking terrible the plot was. That's why I'm holding Shadow up to this hypothetical problem. You are right, in the current climate Shadow should just prance about when he feels like it, but I'd rather the current Sonic climate was much better.

It puts a burden of proof on people that you yourself haven't fulfilled anyway which, again, is laughable

Yeah I have, I've explained why Shadow should have remained dead loads of times. If you want me to prove why Tails and the other guys should still be in the games I can do that but only if you are interested. But that's unrelated to the Shadow topic we were on.

Shadow is only an example of my overall point anyway so the focus is misguided.

I know, but I used him as an example since he's a good talking point.

Oh, and the reason I say Shadow is a villian/rival is because he's always been characterised that way in Sonic games. Heroes, Sonic 06, Generations and Sonic Boom for examples. That's not to say I agree with it.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Regen

[Writer's Blah]

Shadow is only an example of my overall point anyway so the focus is misguided. The point I'm making is that no one here has any rational authority to demand people to justify why they want something unnecessary to be used in the future of the franchise beyond simply their interest in seeing that thing in the future, particularly if they're not willing to admit they also like unnecessary shit too that objectively has no more worth than other people's preferences in the grand scheme. It puts a burden of proof on people that you yourself haven't fulfilled anyway which, again, is laughable, particularly with a franchise as lackadaisical about plot as Sonic is. 

"While Tails and Knuckles skirt by with shit characterization and terrible utilization, prove to me what Shadow and Cream *really* bring to the table, else I'm going to dismiss your claims of potential as meaningless, irrational, emotionally-dependant nonsense. You should let go of your arbitrary preferences and instead enjoy my also-arbitrary preferences." Lo-fucking-L, get the fuck outta here.

In short, unless you're going to start asking the main cast to start being written in a western literary style where they always grow, always change, always have a definitive arc, and always heavily contribute in every single appearance, then secondary cast doesn't need to be held to that standard either. If Tails can dick around in Unleashed, so can anyone else in the games if they can reasonably appear within the confines of that story. That's my point.

I'm currently questioning my own intelligence, because I really don't follow this argument. The whole thing about not needing justifications of "potential" to prove a character's usefulness and reason to return? I get that, but I'm really surprised that's actually what you'd want. I don't think fans of a character simply want to see their favorite character in a new game; they want to see them represented well. 06 might have had a ton of characters in it, but as a Knuckles fan, do you think I liked it when I felt he was tacked on just so Sonic could have two partners to tag along with? What about Generations? That had a ton of characters, surely fans of those characters were happy to see them again, right? Well, I'd venture to say they were not satisfied really, because what did any of them do aside from act as Sonic's cheerleaders? Heck, do you think Shadow fans were happy when RoL shoved him in for the heck of it just to act like a jerk towards Sonic?

This is why people are bringing up the potential argument; it's being used as a way to have legitimate means for a character's appearance. Because just having a character show up and do nothing isn't really that exciting. But isn't the primary cast being used in a bare-bones manner in the game's structure anyway? Yeah they are, doesn't mean I like that either. It's a conflict of ideology; I think the real crux of this argument isn't in whether "potential" matters or not, it's in whether canon continuity matters or not.

[Kuzu]

You're using Shadow as an example, but missing the point entirely; This series is so lackadaisical on plot, even at its absolute best that trying to justify and writing convincing "develpment" for literally the entire cast puts an unneeded burden on people. 

Its like, someone just want to fucking play as their favorite character, it is that simple for some people. Its like if people can say shit like "These characters just shouldn't appear just because" why the fuck can't I just say "I want Knuckles because I want to play as him" . 

 

 

And Shadow is only antagonist in literally ONE of those games you listed. In Heroes, he's trying to find out about his past and willingly helps the other heroes against Metal Sonic, he's literally the only character actually trying to beat the villain in 06, and he may as well be an different character entirely in Boom. :\

[Nepenthe]

@Regen That's not the burden of proof that's been levied at people. People have instead been tasked with trying to defend the very continued existence of the extended cast in this topic, the Downsizing topic, and elsewhere for years, with the failure for doing so being dismissed as being unable to "let go" of something they like (no seriously, why would anyone ever do this?) and their character being given the presumption that they are useless and thus obligated to be scrapped. It's bollocks.

Fans of anyone who aren't the main four have to go through this dumbass dog-and-pony show of somehow proving that these characters (who by and large are not actually bound by in-universe restrictions from showing up in most of the plots anyway) "deserve" to show up like a normal cast member does. People are being charged with demonstrating some hypothetical amount of depth to their characters that the main four are never expected to have in order to show up themselves, with the textbook rebuttal being "well, I don't like that story idea so sorry" or "I don't think that story's worth telling." 

(And that's a completely irrelevant rebuttal btw because the initial demand for an explanation doesn't actually hinge on a person's personal tastes. If you tell me to explain how Jet can appear in some theoretical plot and I do that, it doesn't fucking matter that you wouldn't want to see it. I fulfilled the criteria of your argument. So then the goalpost is been changed to "Well, you have to make up some story I like for me to accept the idea that this character should continued to be used," which is impossible because most people who dislike a character don't want to see that character again, meaning this is a fruitless argument to have because there's little to no ground to be yielded.)

In this example I'm being tasked with "proving" for some reason not only that Shadow can have a role, but that he will always have some life-altering story to tell when that's not the point. The point is to see him around being an appropriately-used, active agent on the plot like any other character who gets a free pass, not some damned literary exercise. If I fail at this utterly ridiculous task, the conclusion people on the other side of the argument will draw from that is that Shadow doesn't deserve to be in the games, which is ultimately whatever; if you don't want to see him again then fine. But if you're not applying that same standard to the other characters outside of hypothetical arguments, you're a hypocrite.

For example, no one around here actually charges Sega with axing Knuckles permanently even though, going by the logic of the arguments in play, he should have been thrown in the trash after S3&K or Adventure 1 not only due to the fact that he had two character arcs that ended, but because he's tied to an isolated floating landmass through his lame, self-imposed duty to guard a rock that hasn't been relevant in ages anyway. On top of that, ever since then he's been used in very meaningless ways and has basically been downgraded into "dumb tough guy" which was taken to its most logical and embarrassing conclusion in Boom. He is by all rights a candidate for deletion, but instead the debate is about how to fix him, how to get him off the island appropriately, or general disappointment and resignation that he's being used haphazardly. Going by people's logic, Knuckles needs to go away forever, or at least until they decide to use Angel Island and the Master Emerald again (and we can write some Andre Dubus-esque story about his morality or what-the-fuck-ever.) But no one makes this argument, and it's simply because they like him enough that they don't want to see him gone. So fuck anyone's "potential" argument; I like Shadow and don't want to see him gone too.

Now if that's what your personal argument is- that every character, no matter their popularity or status, should conform to the same high standards for inclusion- then great! You're at least logically consistent. I don't necessarily agree, but it's at least consistent. But the very nature of this argument in this thread and over the years hasn't been consistent, and that's why I'm against it so.

I'm currently questioning my own intelligence, because I really don't follow this argument. The whole thing about not needing justifications of "potential" to prove a character's usefulness and reason to return? I get that, but I'm really surprised that's actually what you'd want. I don't think fans of a character simply want to see their favorite character in a new game; they want to see them represented well. 06 might have had a ton of characters in it, but as a Knuckles fan, do you think I liked it when I felt he was tacked on just so Sonic could have two partners to tag along with? What about Generations? That had a ton of characters, surely fans of those characters were happy to see them again, right? Well, I'd venture to say they were not satisfied really, because what did any of them do aside from act as Sonic's cheerleaders? Heck, do you think Shadow fans were happy when RoL shoved him in for the heck of it just to act like a jerk towards Sonic?

This is why people are bringing up the potential argument; it's being used as a way to have legitimate means for a character's appearance. Because just having a character show up and do nothing isn't really that exciting. But isn't the primary cast being used in a bare-bones manner in the game's structure anyway? Yeah they are, doesn't mean I like that either. It's a conflict of ideology; I think the real crux of this argument isn't in whether "potential" matters or not, it's in whether canon continuity matters or not.

This isn't an argument in favor of throwing every character into every single game even if they won't have anything to do. My argument is that the low-ass threshold for the popular sidekicks to be considered usable should be the same low-ass threshold for the rest of the secondary cast to be considered usable, provided they weren't written as either being too far away like Blaze and Silver or one-shots like Chip and Gamma. I shouldn't have to prove to you, Regen, Diogenes, or anyone else that Shadow will always and forever have deep arcs of character to explore in order for him to have a shot at being used in a series that doesn't even require this level of writing by design (an impossible standard to prove and whose only logical conclusion will result in his retirement), especially when it's culturally accepted that someone like Tails doesn't even need a character arc to appear. 

It is accepted that Tails can remain perfectly static from beginning to end- the same cute, smart-ass 8 year old boy we know and love- but simply be a helpful team member like in Heroes or Riders or an expository character like in Rush and Unleashed and still be considered appropriately utilized, without being threatened with calls for being scrapped because he didn't undergo a large change or make some huge impact every single time. The same should apply to everyone else. Shadow doesn't need to appear in a plot only when Sega can potentially explore the some deep, meaningful complication about his inner psyche. If they get an idea to do that, then that would be great; however, he can just as easily appear because he has a survival instinct and thus a vested interest in not getting his ass blown to kingdom come in whatever apocalyptic scenario is at hand, and from there he can either be useful as a team member, a rival, or simply just as another character in the proceedings who experiences the events from a different point of view. These are valid utilizations of cast members and they shouldn't be reserved just for whoever is your favorite or the most popular.

Again, I'm not saying I want every single cast member to show up all the time with nothing to do. I'm saying a secondary character with no strings attached doesn't need to fill out some lengthy audition form about why they have this grandiose human problem that warrants exploration to appear in a fucking Sonic game. They should appear if it's appropriate for them to do so and have some measurable effect on the plot's events.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Zaysho]

In the case of Shadow, all you really need is to put him on a mission with Team Dark as back-up. GUN could just send them on a mission to go after Eggman preemptively, especially given his track record of doing things like breaking the fucking planet apart. That's good enough, isn't it? He doesn't need to go on some sacred journey, he doesn't need to find himself, he doesn't even need to learn the value of friendship or teamwork (oh wait, he's done all these things already). He just needs to kick ass and take names and have some banter with Rouge and Omega. How much justification does Shadow, post-character development, really need to just do shit and have an episode/game to himself?

Nobody is asking for a Generations redux where everyone does jack all or act completely out of character like Boom. What's there for Shadow already is more than enough to carry a single game or even a campaign, and the games are so short these days, I don't think he'd overstay his welcome.