What's The Best Way To Introduce A New Anthro Character?

[blade57331]

 

Its like, someone just want to fucking play as their favorite character, it is that simple for some people. Its like if people can say shit like "These characters just shouldn't appear just because" why the fuck can't I just say "I want Knuckles because I want to play as him" . 

 

So I assume, If Sonic could glide and climb (thanks to wisps for example), you would be completely fine then, because that's pretty much like you would play as Knuckles, yes?

[StaticMania]

So I assume, If Sonic could glide and climb (thanks to wisps for example), you would be completely fine then, because that's pretty much like you would play as Knuckles, yes?

No. Temporary, situational power-ups are no legit substitute for an actual character that would have both those abilities and more.

[blade57331]

This "power-ups" wouldn't be temporary/situational for Sonic. He can use it as much as he want. Is it ok, then?

[Writer's Blah]

Now if that's what your personal argument is- that every character, no matter their popularity or status, should conform to the same high standards for inclusion- then great! You're at least logically consistent. But the very nature of this argument in this thread and over the years hasn't been consistent, and that's why I'm against it so.

This isn't an argument in favor of throwing every character into every single game even if they won't have anything to do. My argument is that the low-ass threshold for the popular sidekicks to be considered usable should be the same low-ass threshold for the rest of the secondary cast to be considered usable, provided they weren't written as either being too far away like Blaze and Silver or one-shots like Chip and Gamma. I shouldn't have to prove to you, Regen, Diogenes, or anyone else that Shadow will always and forever have deep arcs of character to explore in order for him to have a shot at being used in series that is doesn't even require this level of writing by design (an impossible standard to prove whose only logical conclusion will result in his retirement), especially when it's culturally accepted that Tails doesn't even need character arcs for him to appear. 

It is accepted that Tails can remain perfectly static from beginning to end- the same cute, smart-ass 8 year old boy we know and love- but simply be a helpful team member like in Heroes or Riders, or an expository character like in Rush and Unleashed and be considered appropriately utilized, without being threatened with calls for being scrapped because he didn't undergo a large change or make some huge impact. The same should apply to everyone else. Shadow doesn't need to appear in a plot only when Sega can potentially explore the some deep, meaningful complication about his inner psyche. If they get an idea to do that, then that would be great. However, he can just as easily appear because he has a survival instinct and thus a vested interest in also not getting his ass blown to kingdom come in whatever apocalyptic scenario is at hand, and from there he can either be useful as a team member, a rival, or simply just as another character in the proceedings who experiences the events from a different point of view. These are valid utilization of cast members, and it shouldn't be reserved just for arbitrary good guys.

Again, I'm not saying I want every single cast member to show up with nothing to do. I'm saying, a secondary character with no strings attached doesn't need to fill out some audition form about why they have this grandiose human problem that warrants exploration to appear in a fucking Sonic game. 

Well, you pretty much just hit the nail on the head with that one. Specifically, I do actually hold high standards for inclusion for every character, including Tails (and if we're looking at more recent entries, Orbot and Cubot). For the record, I am disappointed that Tails has barely gotten any significant mileage from both a gameplay an narrative standpoint. I think the tech persona has really overtaken his character, to the point where I think whoever's in charge has forgotten that he hasn't used his namesake tails to do anything useful in, like, forever. Or the fact that despite him no longer looking up to Sonic all the time, it's almost as though he has the same amount of experience as Sonic, instead of still learning to stand on his own. So I don't exclude this line of reasoning from Tails.

Where it gets muddier for me is when we consider Sonic and Eggman. We've only ever had a small handful of Sonic games where Sonic himself doesn't appear, which is understandable since he's supposed to be the main character. I do take issue with the fact that the only game that really tried to do anything notable with Sonic's character was Unleashed and the Storybook series, but I think here's where I start to understand your argument more. Sonic doesn't really need an excuse for being present because the games are naturally built to include him as a central force, so why can't the same be extended to everyone else? If we're going to go by this line of reasoning, then you've already won this argument. There's nothing I can really say that would excuse Sonic but not excuse everyone else; it would just require SEGA to have a game idea that would naturally lend itself to utilizing any other character from either a narrative or gameplay perspective. The only question then, is if they can do that in the first place.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Writer's Blah

[Regen]

@Nepenthe, really good post and I agree with what you have to say on this. I can see why some haters of Shadow would use a similar argument to mine to try to shut down Shadow from ever appearing in any future games and it's really pathetic. If they dislike Shadow they should come out and say it rather than try to use bullshit argumentation. Again, I'm not against him appearing in any games, I just don't think he should be in any future plots.

As for Knuckles, actually yeah, I don't think he should have a major role in any future plots. I now get the privilege of annoying the Classic Fans too  . His role has effectively finished in Sonic 3 and K and I don't think revisiting the Master Emerald path again would be a good idea unless they had a really good reason for it. I still think he could appear as a kind of wise Angel Island character for maybe one level in Angel Island but I don't think it should be for more than one mission. I always thought of Knuckles as being independent and doing his own thing. Him running after Sonic in games like Heroes did devalue that element of his character. Again, I wouldn't have a problem with him being playable or having secret non-canon stages like Shadow. 

In this current climate of fucking terrible writing, Shadow doesn't need a reason to appear. Totally agree with you there. I would want to see a higher calibre of better writing but of course that's totally hypothetical and is unlikely to ever happen  . In this sitatuion, it's totally reasonable that even Tails wouldn't be in. I'd like to point out that Tails wasn't in Sonic CD and Sonic and Knuckles because he wasn't neccessary. It sucked in a gameplay perspective, so I'm totally fine with including characters like Knuckles and Shadow as unlockable characters, but I'd be quite happy to boot him out the plot if he wasn't necessary. 

Oh and just as a sidenote, I hated how they replaced characters with 'power ups' in Sonic Generations missions, I'd really hate to see the franchise go in that very possible direction.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Regen

[StaticMania]

This "power-ups" wouldn't be temporary/situational for Sonic. He can use it as much as he want. Is it ok, then?

Even then, fans still want to actually know that they're playing as characters they like and not playing as Sonic who stole their abilities for some reason.

[Zaysho]

This "power-ups" wouldn't be temporary/situational for Sonic. He can use it as much as he want. Is it ok, then?

Or, instead of handing Sonic other characters roles/abilities for no good reason, we just let the other characters do their thing for a change.

[Kuzu]

So I assume, If Sonic could glide and climb (thanks to wisps for example), you would be completely fine then, because that's pretty much like you would play as Knuckles, yes?

This "power-ups" wouldn't be temporary/situational for Sonic. He can use it as much as he want. Is it ok, then?

I specifically said Knuckles, not Sonic with Knuckles` abilities slapped onto him. Why would I even be satisfied with that? It devalues both Sonic & Knuckles because you're glorifying the former at the expense of the latter. It is literally the most counterproductive way and you're only going to piss people off further. Its literally the equivalent of giving Mario, Luigi's high jump ability. It completely eliminates the need for him to begin with, when once again, that's not what anyone wants.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

This "power-ups" wouldn't be temporary/situational for Sonic. He can use it as much as he want. Is it ok, then?

I am with this. 

[Regen]

I'd rather Sonic get new elemental shield abilities or something rather than steal other character's abilities. Imagine if the shields in Sonic 3AK let you fly or glide temporarily, it's a pretty naff idea. 

[Wraith]

@Nepenthe, really good post and I agree with what you have to say on this. I can see why some haters of Shadow would use a similar argument to mine to try to shut down Shadow from ever appearing in any future games and it's really pathetic. If they dislike Shadow they should come out and say it rather than try to use bullshit argumentation. Again, I'm not against him appearing in any games, I just don't think he should be in any future plots.

As for Knuckles, actually yeah, I don't think he should have a major role in any future plots. I now get the privilege of annoying the Classic Fans too  . His role has effectively finished in Sonic 3 and K and I don't think revisiting the Master Emerald path again would be a good idea unless they had a really good reason for it. I still think he could appear as a kind of wise Angel Island character for maybe one level in Angel Island but I don't think it should be for more than one mission. I always thought of Knuckles as being independent and doing his own thing. Him running after Sonic in games like Heroes did devalue that element of his character. Again, I wouldn't have a problem with him being playable or having secret non-canon stages like Shadow. 

In this current climate of fucking terrible writing, Shadow doesn't need a reason to appear. Totally agree with you there. I would want to see a higher calibre of better writing but of course that's totally hypothetical and is unlikely to ever happen  . In this sitatuion, it's totally reasonable that even Tails wouldn't be in. I'd like to point out that Tails wasn't in Sonic CD and Sonic and Knuckles because he wasn't neccessary. It sucked in a gameplay perspective, so I'm totally fine with including characters like Knuckles and Shadow as unlockable characters, but I'd be quite happy to boot him out the plot if he wasn't necessary. 

Oh and just as a sidenote, I hated how they replaced characters with 'power ups' in Sonic Generations missions, I'd really hate to see the franchise go in that very possible direction.

 

I feel like you're kind of asking for a higher pedigree of Storytelling than Sonic has ever offered, really. Ultimately it's still a video game franchise for children focused more on being a success than telling a story. Denying popular characters like Knuckles or Shadow for arbitrary reasons like "he should be on the island"  isn't really sound logic. I imagine the logic behind the Shadow game was less "Shadow needs expanding upon in our story" and more "People like Shadow so let's make a Shadow game." 

The lore shouldn't get in the way of the quality of whatever standalone product they're releasing. If they think adding Shadow will improve whatever they're making they'll do it

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Wraith

[Regen]

 

I feel like you're kind of asking for a higher pedigree of Storytelling than Sonic has ever offered, really. Ultimately it's still a video game franchise for children focused more on being a success than telling a story. Denying popular characters like Knuckles or Shadow for arbitrary reasons like "he should be on the island"  isn't really sound logic. I imagine the logic behind the Shadow game was less "Shadow needs expanding upon in our story" and more "People like Shadow so let's make a Shadow game." 

 

 

Well he can still be playable  . I just don't want him in the plot.

And yeah, maybe I am asking for too much from a kids game and am being a bit of a twat. That's just what I do on forums lol  .

[Nepenthe]

@Writer's Blah Well, I understand being disappointed in Tails' utilization as of late. A lot of people are miffed at him to some degree, and I think it's something that needs to be fixed if he's going to continue being Sonic's right-hand man. Everyone should ideally be written well all the time regardless of whether they're flat, rounded, dynamic, static, or whatever, and again I don't want a character's utilization to be bad. However, my point of contention is that no one is going to make the argument that Tails' bad utilization as of late means he doesn't deserve to be used anymore at all and should be trashed. It's an extreme solution to a relatively simple problem.

Sonic, however, is fine being a unique presence or force of nature/change versus a highly dynamic character. He's the headliner of a billion-dollar franchise, meaning he has to have some level of consistency that others don't for the sake of brand recognition and marketing. So I actually give him a free pass on that front. I like seeing Sonic just doing his Sonic-y thing regardless of whether or not that involves some evolution of his character or learned lesson on his part. And because of the nature of Sonic's character, I feel the most appropriate story to even tell is the adventure serial fiction anyway where the point is to court life-threatening danger, go to exotic locales, face larger-than-life enemies and odds, solve mysteries, and save the planet, versus something like a literary short story or more thematic-driven game like Last of Us where the point is to develop character growth and theme in more of a slow-burning way. It doesn't mean the Sonic characters can't develop, of course! It just means it's okay for them to focus on being active agents and helpers in a fight between good and evil where action is more important than character arc. Really, at the end of the day, they're effectively superheroes or shonen characters- not exactly the place to start for nail-biting exploration of human nature.

So I personally don't mind when characters appear and all they do is find out information, or transport Sonic places, or find the pieces of the puzzle, or go off on their own to face a secondary villain or something. So long as characters are moving and acting in a way that's relevant to the overall proceedings, I'm satisfied with them. Again, my point is that this type of development should be free for every available or appropriate cast member, not just Tails, Knuckles, and Amy. And if it's not to be that way, I expect Tails, Knuckles, and Amy- especially Tails- to get the same amount of scrutiny that Silver, Cream, or the Rogues do if they ever show up without enough depth to their appearance.

[Kuzu]

It really does irk the shit out of me how people are willing to hold every other character to some arbitrary standard of writing, but don't do so for the likes of Tails, Knuckles, Amy or Metal Sonic. Its such a blatant case of favoritism tbh. 

And then it goes into the problem of holding this series to such a standard in the first place. Like, I get it, we all want different things out of the series and for things to be better than how they are now, but can people be realistic about it? Sometimes it feels like the expectations put on this series are abnormally high compared to other franchises. I'm glad we have a passionate fanbase and all, but it really makes discussion about anything annoying to go through because you have like five different crowds screaming at the top of their lungs for what they feel the series "needs" to be. 

[Writer's Blah]

It really does irk the shit out of me how people are willing to hold every other character to some arbitrary standard of writing, but don't do so for the likes of Tails, Knuckles, Amy or Metal Sonic. Its such a blatant case of favoritism tbh. 

And then it goes into the problem of holding this series to such a standard in the first place. Like, I get it, we all want different things out of the series and for things to be better than how they are now, but can people be realistic about it? Sometimes it feels like the expectations put on this series are abnormally high compared to other franchises. I'm glad we have a passionate fanbase and all, but it really makes discussion about anything annoying to go through because you have like five different crowds screaming at the top of their lungs for what they feel the series "needs" to be. 

Really, the only way I can see that argument making sense is with the reasoning that Tails, Knuckles, and Amy were conceived during an era when the storytelling in the Sonic franchise wasn't nearly as intricate (though "better" is quite a stretch imo) and therefore don't need as many in-universe justifications for their appearances, whereas characters like Shadow, Silver, and Blaze were made with heavyhanded storytelling in mind, so they need justifications for their appearances. For the record, I really disagree with this line of thinking, and in that regard, completely agree with both you and Nepenthe; either utilize all the characters with the same amount of prejudice simply because the game would benefit from their presence, or use the same amount of justification for all the characters to be included, and make the Sonic franchise significantly more story-centric. I think I'd totally be fine with both approaches, so long as we finally get some variety in our characters without them feeling tacked on a la Generations.

[Wraith]

It's kind of weird how people treat the lore like it isn't defied constantly even within the games themselves. I get being invested but you have to look at Sonic for what it is, too. I mean, sure, Silver I is in the future mow, but if Sonic Team decided they needed him back for whatever reason they could relocate his ass in a heartbeat and it wouldn't be that out of line with what they've done before either. 

[blade57331]

"I want Knuckles because I want to play as him" . 

Sounded for me like you want to play him just for gameplay reasons. Not because you wanted for his apperance to make sense.

If so, then Sonic being able to climb and glide should resolve everything

If not, then nevermind.

[Nepenthe]

It's kind of weird how people treat the lore like it isn't defied constantly even within the games themselves. I get being invested but you have to look at Sonic for what it is, too. I mean, sure, Silver I is in the future mow, but if Sonic Team decided they needed him back for whatever reason they could relocate his ass in a heartbeat and it wouldn't be that out of line with what they've done before either. 

The lore isn't defied constantly so much as it's simply not built upon, and that's only recently. The classics happened logically which were referenced in the Adventures which happened logically which in turn were referenced through Heroes to 06 mainly through Shadow's character arc. It's only since Unleashed that the stories have been episodic, and even then they're not contradictory so much as standalone. The only really confusing thing that occurs is if you try to throw all of the handheld games and spin-offs in there too (and the biggest contradiction there, that being Blaze, is something Iizuka put to rest with a definitive answer anyway, not that it mattered considering Sonic 06 wrote itself out of existence). So yeah, if Sonic Team put Silver in a mainstream 3D Sonic game without any hint of time travel, it would be fair game to be criticized.

[Zaysho]

"I want Knuckles because I want to play as him" . 

Sounded for me like you want to play him just for gameplay reasons. Not because you wanted for his apperance to make sense.

If so, then Sonic being able to climb and glide should resolve everything

If not, then nevermind.

Or, people want to play as Knuckles.

Handing his abilities over to Sonic does nothing but piss off fans of Knuckles who want to play as Knuckles. If his appearance suddenly needs to make sense again, something SEGA themselves obviously don't care about, then set a story on Angel Island and put the focus on Knuckles. Shit's not hard.

[Writer's Blah]

The lore isn't defied constantly so much as it's simply not built upon, and that's only recently. The classics happened logically which were referenced in the Adventures which happened logically which in turn were referenced through Heroes to 06 mainly through Shadow's character arc. It's only since Unleashed that the stories have been episodic, and even then they're not contradictory so much as standalone. The only really confusing thing that occurs is if you try to throw all of the handheld games and spin-offs in there too (and the biggest contradiction there, that being Blaze, is something Iizuka put to rest with a definitive answer anyway, not that it mattered considering Sonic 06 wrote itself out of existence). So yeah, if Sonic Team put Silver in a mainstream 3D Sonic game without any hint of time travel, it would be fair game to be criticized.

Sorry if I'm getting off topic, but I'm legitimately curious about this. Disregarding the direction the games have been going in recently, which approach do you think the Sonic franchise should follow? Do you think we should go back to having each individual title logically flow from the last, or do you prefer the newer episodic approach? Or maybe a mix of both? Basically, if you were hypothetically in charge of the company and money was not an issue, what would you do?

[Komodin]

"I want Knuckles because I want to play as him" . 

Sounded for me like you want to play him just for gameplay reasons. Not because you wanted for his apperance to make sense.

If so, then Sonic being able to climb and glide should resolve everything

If not, then nevermind.

There is more to Knuckles than just his abilities to glide and climb walls, and fans can and do like him for his character in addition to his gameplay. By this logic, even Sonic would look rather pointless next to, say, Mario since the guy also has a "Run Faster" button in his game.

[Kuzu]

"I want Knuckles because I want to play as him" . 

Sounded for me like you want to play him just for gameplay reasons. Not because you wanted for his apperance to make sense.

If so, then Sonic being able to climb and glide should resolve everything

If not, then nevermind.

Yes, I want to play as KNUCKLES because of KNUCKLES` Gameplay. So why are you implying that I will be satisfied by just throwing his abilities onto Sonic?

[blade57331]

Yes, I want to play as KNUCKLES because of KNUCKLES` Gameplay. So why are you implying that I will be satisfied by just throwing his abilities onto Sonic?

In that case I don't get what's your problem. If Sonic would have Knuckles abilities then ,in gameplay it's like you would play as Knuckles. Same experience, same fun, same game.

[Kuzu]

In that case I don't get what's your problem. If Sonic would have Knuckles abilities then ,in gameplay it's like you would play as Knuckles. Same experience, same fun, same game.

Except I don't want to play "like" Knuckles I want to play as Knuckles with his own abilities intact. :\ Like I can't tell if you're trolling me or not because I really can't get how you don't understand something so basic.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Kuzu the Boloedge

[Dee Dude]

Are people seriously implying the idea that Sonic should basically have all the abilities of other characters thus rendering their entire purpose and existence useless and making Sonic into some super skillful powerful being which would most likely make him broken plus never having said abilities such as gliding and flying to begin with? That's one of the stupidest ideas I ever heard.

Also I think we're getting a little off-topic here.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Dan-Dude