Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Leebo4]

15 minutes ago, Mangoaxe5 said:

A lot of stuff is already used in disrespectful ways. Just type any Sonic character into Rule 34, or go on Deviantart.

All copyright does is get in the way of artistic expression. 

It also makes sure that creators can have a say in books that they write like if they make a successful book then they can’t do anything if someone makes an unauthorised adaptation to of it off the success without the creator seeing a penny for it

 

the copyrighted system is flawed but it would actually be worse without it if no one can own the works they create and imagine the darker sonic fanworks being put on the big screen or official games and dragging the reputation even more down

 

ComicDrake in his video of Ken; pointed out that for all his faults he had a legit claim to his own creations and creators have it bad enough with the man who created the Archie style being screwed over by Archie and reprints leaving out references to him with him helpless to do anything 

[Mangoaxe5]

1 minute ago, Leebo4 said:

 

 

ComicDrake in his video of Ken; pointed out that for all his faults he had a legit claim to his own creations and creators 

Penders doesn't have a claim to his work cause it's derivative. Archie's new lawyers bought this up in 2013.

Judge: So are you saying prior counsel blew it?

Archie Council: Absolutely, your Honor.  

Source: https://theamazingsallyhogan.tumblr.com/post/68112487973/sonic-the-hedgehog-ken-penders-bioware

[Leebo4]

1 minute ago, Mangoaxe5 said:

Penders doesn't have a claim to his work cause it's derivative. Archie's new lawyers bought this up in 2013.

Judge: So are you saying prior counsel blew it?

Archie Council: Absolutely, your Honor.  

Source: https://theamazingsallyhogan.tumblr.com/post/68112487973/sonic-the-hedgehog-ken-penders-bioware

He does have a claim because it wasn’t just the incompetent lawyers but the fact that Archie didn’t have a copy of his contract to proof that they owned his work and only had a photocopy of his second contract which may not even cover all of his work

[Mangoaxe5]

I'm still not convinced. The way that Archie settled the case was pretty smart.

Quote

However the initial agreement from November 2012 to October 2013, seemed to indicate that Archie would not acknowledge Penders’ ownership of anything, and would simply agree not to pursue legal action against him for using certain specified things.

Basically nothing was really resolved. Which means that this could still come back and bite Penders in the ass someday.

And again Penders characters are derivative meaning that even without a work for hire contract Sega most likely still owns them.

Source: https://theamazingsallyhogan.tumblr.com/post/68112487973/sonic-the-hedgehog-ken-penders-bioware

Edited May 9 by Mangoaxe5

[Lorekitten]

6 minutes ago, Mangoaxe5 said:

Basically nothing was really resolved. Which means that this could still come back and bite Penders in the ass someday.

At this point I'm convinced that Penders is going to get his in the end, sooner or later. Even if it only comes in the form of losing money on his pet project.

[Promethean0416]

And now he is responding to those who are questioning the project's legality:

(EDIT: Adding rest of discussion.)

I've said this before and I will say it again, all we can do is let the chips fall where they may and we will see what happens come the arrival of the product and the upcoming Comic-Con where it will debut...

Edited May 3 by Promethean0416
Adding.

[Stasis]

Going off that logic I could write new stories featuring the characters he created and sell them in a book as it's all my material, If the rules don't apply to Knuckles, Vector etc then they don't apply to Geoffrey and Lara. If this was a problem I could then give them full head helmets that resemble said characters and rename them Jeff McJohn and Laura Susan in the Chronicles of Pends.

I once got a takedown notice from SEGA for selling 2 Sonic duvets on Red Bubble featuring art I'd made myself. If this gets no repercussions I don't know what to say.

Edited May 4 by Stasis

[Promethean0416]

And his "slow and steady progress" on the "commission" continues:

Ken Penders Presents: The Uncanny Valley Brigade in HDMI!

EDIT: Unless I am misreading this, he is insisting that TLSC: Beginnings is a continuation of 25YL despite a majority of it being 25YL itself:

Quote

The story is indeed a continuation of events from MOBIUS: 25 YEARS LATER, but don’t be surprised if other plotlines make their way in somewhere down the road.

From the recent proof pages update.

Edited May 5 by Promethean0416
Adding.

[Guergy]

I really liked the old art style but Penders has degraded over the years. Do artists really degrade after they reach their peak? 

[LongcrierCat]

On 5/4/2024 at 3:57 PM, Stasis said:

Going off that logic I could write new stories featuring the characters he created and sell them in a book as it's all my material, If the rules don't apply to Knuckles, Vector etc then they don't apply to Geoffrey and Lara. If this was a problem I could then give them full head helmets that resemble said characters and rename them Jeff McJohn and Laura Susan in the Chronicles of Pends.

I once got a takedown notice from SEGA for selling 2 Sonic duvets on Red Bubble featuring art I'd made myself. If this gets no repercussions I don't know what to say.

I mean, you could tho.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Expy

People get away with making expies of their favourites all of the time in all of media. Just a couple days ago we got another Amazing Digital Circus episode with another shoutout to Raggedy Ann and Andy: A Musical Adventure in the form of the Fudge inspired by the Greedy.

Him making expies of Sonic characters isn't as illegal as one would think.

But the nature of an expy is vague. One has to consider if making an expy too close to the original inspiration just makes it a carbon copy plagiarism of the original work.

Plagiarism is a hot button topic in the world of art with more artists online having their work treated like free real estate by the major media corporations and their want to use AI generation to replace actual people in positions of art.

K'Nox bein an expy of his time on Archie Knuckles is understandable since it's his version of Knuckles taken further to being his own dude.

What isn't is when he uses Mobius 25 Years Later art and you just straight up have Sonic with his name and likeness completely unchanged.

Copyright is a confusing mess that is inherently antithetical to art. If it weren't for fanfiction and the public domain we wouldn't have the grand majority of the works of art we have now based on the pantheon of gods, public figures, mythological beings, your folktale heroes, so on and so forth.

Sides... do you really want Sega to go after Ken Penders? Do you know how dangerous a precedent that would set up for any and all fan content of the Sonic the Hedgehog Series we all love?

Would you be willing to see a world where Sega would sue Sonic fans for holding the SAGE Expo?

Frankly, I'm offended on your behalf that Sega did a takedown on your Sonic duvets on RedBubble given that some of my favourite Sonic stuff I own is fan made work and I'm currently wearing a fanmade Sonic shirt that's one of my favourite pieces of clothing ever.

I think if anything this talk is proving that corporations need to have the legal power of the government hit them upside the head, but given Super PACs are funded by corporate lobbyists, that's kind of unlikely to happen.

Now's a great time to be an IRL Freedom Fighter. I'm just saying.

[StreetSonic2022]

10 hours ago, LongcrierCat said:

I mean, you could tho.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Expy

Him making expies of Sonic characters isn't as illegal as one would think.

But the nature of an expy is vague. One has to consider if making an expy too close to the original inspiration just makes it a carbon copy plagiarism of the original work.

Uh, you forget that this mess all started because of the expies: Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood. The problem was that his fanbase yapped to him because they believed Shade and the Nocturnus was WAY too similar to Julie-Su and the Dark Legion (however, the Nocturnus was way better executed and has better lore due to the connection of the Sonic Adventure series, Sonic Battle and Sonic Advance 3) and besides of the Archie royalties, he felt he should sued SEGA and BioWare/EA because they "stole" his stuff without permission, ignoring the fact of the rumors that the BioWare development team did contact him and he flat out ignored them.

[LongcrierCat]

34 minutes ago, StreetSonic2022 said:

Uh, you forget that this mess all started because of the expies: Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood. The problem was that his fanbase yapped to him because they believed Shade and the Nocturnus was WAY too similar to Julie-Su and the Dark Legion (however, the Nocturnus was way better executed and has better lore due to the connection of the Sonic Adventure series, Sonic Battle and Sonic Advance 3) and besides of the Archie royalties, he felt he should sued SEGA and BioWare/EA because they "stole" his stuff without permission, ignoring the fact of the rumors that the BioWare development team did contact him and he flat out ignored them.

That's why I said: 

10 hours ago, LongcrierCat said:

But the nature of an expy is vague. One has to consider if making an expy too close to the original inspiration just makes it a carbon copy plagiarism of the original work.

Sometimes, expies are too close to the source material that inspired them. It's all up to the original artist if the similar work is inspired or plagiarism.

This is why "inspiration" is a major source of contention in certain circles of the art community especially when artists apply for jobs at companies, get rejected, then a work highly similar to their portfolio suddenly shows up months/years later.

You may not like it, but Ken had a point.

The Dark Brotherhood is awfully close to a lot of what he had wrote in his Knuckles stories and they were even setting up a Robotnik dictatorship and Freedom Fighter storyline for the next game in the Sonic Chronicles storyline.

It was unabashedly Archie Sonic inspired and Sega would have benefited from letting them straight up just use Archie characters by working out a deal.

They even admitted to being heavily inspired by the comics and cartoons in this very Behind the Scenes video:

It's kind of no secret Sonic Chronicles could have been an Archie Sonic game under better circumstances.

 

Edited May 6 by LongcrierCat

[Promethean0416]

Welp, here's some "insight" on the "mystery commissioner" for that group "commission":

Still finding it hard to believe that someone would be that patient for over a year since this started, but I digress...

[Promethean0416]

Bit of an update here, as he has put two more of his characters through Penderization as well as some "insight":

:

I see he still calls her "Bunnie Rab-bot" for some reason. I don't think she was ever known that way, was she?

And if this person meant Sonic 06, seems Penders completely misunderstood here:

[King Scoopa Koopa]

What else could they mean? Who would refer to having six fans as "06 fans"?

Probably could have done with an apostrophe there, but still.

[Lorekitten]

I doubt the guy has anywhere near enough Sonic knowledge to even be aware of Sonic 06, given that the game never got an Archie adaptation. He can't even get certain basic facts about the comics themselves right, such as the main setting being Mobius Prime and not Mobius-212, or even spelling Bunnie's last name correctly. Normally I wouldn't get on the man's case for a few slip-ups because everyone has slip-ups, but considering his arrogance in believing he's the final word on everything, I think I'm justified in pointing out that that is empirically not the case.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

I'm trying to remember if the game came out while he was still there, or if it was after he left...

[The Tenth Doctor]

3 hours ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

I'm trying to remember if the game came out while he was still there, or if it was after he left...

Issue 160 (Ian's first issue) was March 2006, Sonic 06 released in November 2006. Penders would be gone by this point.

[Rabid-Coot]

To be fair if you've been recieving insults for over 10 years you're probably going to start seeing them everywhere.

[StreetSonic2022]

On 5/9/2024 at 1:57 PM, Lorekitten said:

I doubt the guy has anywhere near enough Sonic knowledge to even be aware of Sonic 06, given that the game never got an Archie adaptation. He can't even get certain basic facts about the comics themselves right, such as the main setting being Mobius Prime and not Mobius-212, or even spelling Bunnie's last name correctly. Normally I wouldn't get on the man's case for a few slip-ups because everyone has slip-ups, but considering his arrogance in believing he's the final word on everything, I think I'm justified in pointing out that that is empirically not the case.

He actually doesn't, remember in his mindset, Archie Sonic has MORE priority because he assumed that was the base, and the video games are just secondary. Except the reality check is that it is the other way around.  So naming Mobius Prime as Mobius-212 is another way to add more Marvel and "Jack Kirby" stuff to his likening. Though don't know why he hyphenated Bunnie's last name, when in the SatAM bible, it isn't. But then again, another wrench he throws in Ben's grave.

Edited Monday at 01:23 PM by StreetSonic2022

[Guergy]

Come to think of it, I remember the main criticism of the Archie comics {as well as other Western spinoffs) is that it isn't enough like the games. I also heard this criticism from this very forum although in fairness Sega could had done more to give Archive more material. II isn't just a Penders thing although to be honest if it were to be more accurate to the games, Knuckles would not be with the Master Emerald among other things that we complain about.  Penders may not the greatest of writers but him not being familiar with the lore of the games is not a Penders thing.

Edited Saturday at 09:44 PM by Guergy

[Promethean0416]

New "update" from the man:

EDIT 5/13: Another update, which I will include with this as I feel it does not warrant its own separate post. I thought at first he received them early, but 

https://kenpenders.com/moving-forward/

https://kenpenders.com/getting-ready-for-launch/

Quote

Currently, I’m continuing my pre-order promotion of a limited edition signed Lara-Su print along with a randomly selected issue of either SONIC or KNUCKLES I’ve worked on I will sign and include when the pre-ordered copy of BEGINNINGS ships to the buyer. The promotion immediately ends once I have the printed copies of BEGINNINGS on hand to immediately ship.

This is a pretty poor incentive package with the randomness of it, especially if whoever preorders it already has the issue he "randomly picks", in my opinion. I wonder if he has any copies of StH #169 considering that he once attempted to hype this issue?

Quote

In addition, by the end of this month and definitely before I head down to Comic-Con, I plan on unveiling the cover art for KEN PENDERS’S KNUCKLES OMNIBUS as well as a page or two from the next chapter of THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES: SHATTERED TOMORROWS.

I would keep asking if he got the necessary permission(s) to do this, but I think I already know the answer to that...

Quote

As work progresses on the Lara-Su app, while I’d like to say it will be ready for Comic-Con, because of short cuts I took to finish the new material for BEGINNINGS, I have to go back and finish several drawings so everything plays consistently with previous material. I’ll keep everyone posted on progress as well as when the app will eventually launch sometime this year.

And the endless cycle of hype and delays continues...

From 5/13 update:

Quote

What I can tell you is the books are being packed in allotments of 10 copies to a carton with 64 cartons loaded on each pallet. My advance copies are being sent today so I can give my final approval before shipping.

As it now stands, the books are scheduled to ship by May 31, which I will confirm once I have that info in writing. Arrival is expected sometime between June 16 and June 25. Once the books clear customs, they will be delivered by truck to the warehouse where they will be stored. I’ll begin pulling copies for shipping to those who pre-ordered once I receive word the pallets with the books are in the warehouse.

 

Also of note, while I no longer have a Xitter account and can't view post replies, and Xitter itself has an issue with post order, I can see new posts via search engine and came across this one:

UPDATE 5/13: Just discovered this is one part of many he is releasing over time for anyone who is still interested in the past history of a long since resolved matter. I still maintain it's an attempt for his usual pandering for attention.

Quote

I’m still working on my blog posting depicting the hidden history of Sonic the Hedgehog I started this past weekend on Twitter. I’m adding additional details, documents, photos and illustrations to the presentation that I hope people will find interesting.

 

Edited Monday at 07:50 PM by Promethean0416
Adding new info for recent update (5/13).

[captobvious42]

On 5/11/2024 at 4:43 PM, Guergy said:

Come to think of it, I remember the main criticism of the Archie comics {as well as other Western spinoffs) is that it isn't enough like the games. I also heard this criticism from this very forum although in fairness Sega could had done more to give Archive more material. II isn't just a Penders thing although to be honest if it were to be more accurate to the games, Knuckles would not be with the Master Emerald among other things that we complain about.  Penders may not the greatest of writers but him not being familiar with the lore of the games is not a Penders thing.

The thing that crossed my mind is the Mario shows had about the same amount of material to work with and still managed to have a lot of game elements even if they took some liberties. I'm not sure what the difference between this and the Sonic comic/animated series (I think Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog had a few game elements but I don't know how loaded it was) but in theory they should have had similar access to similar amounts of material be it games or the manuals. I know there's the thing about Sega not supplying material/being hands-off, but I think Nintendo was the same way (I think I heard they had to be convinced to do the shows.)

[Promethean0416]

Something I didn't put on my previous post when I updated it, but an "interesting" response from Penders from the previous update:

Quote

While there will be new material in BEGINNINGS, I’m not sure what I would classify as new for the OMNIBUS, as I certainly won’t be writing any new Knuckles stories as I don’t have a license to do that. I’m tempted to redraw some of my earlier stories, but that would be the extent of it. There’s a part of me that thinks people would prefer the original material “as is” and leave it at that.

Yeah, his "prequel" (aside from the Knuckles cameo) and a short preview of his first chapter that took him almost 13 years to make...

Edited Monday at 10:20 PM by Promethean0416

[King Scoopa Koopa]

On 5/11/2024 at 5:43 PM, Guergy said:

Come to think of it, I remember the main criticism of the Archie comics {as well as other Western spinoffs) is that it isn't enough like the games. I also heard this criticism from this very forum although in fairness Sega could had done more to give Archive more material. II isn't just a Penders thing although to be honest if it were to be more accurate to the games, Knuckles would not be with the Master Emerald among other things that we complain about.  Penders may not the greatest of writers but him not being familiar with the lore of the games is not a Penders thing.

There was a ton of stuff in the pre-Dreamcast days that they -- Penders and the others -- could have worked with, but didn't.

I made a document about it here some time ago...

To be quite frank, though, in light of all that, I'm kinda surprised that Penders was the one to introduce Ray the Flying Squirrel to the Archie canon. So, credit where credit's due on that one.

Edit: Here it is.

  

On 2/6/2021 at 12:37 AM, King Scoopa Koopa said:

 

 

 

Okay, so this stuff has been driving me crazy. Not just when it was brought up last March, but for a long, long time prior to that. So I did something I've been meaning to do for some time now.

Over the past year, between other projects and stuff I've been working on, I've been chipping away at the following: Basically a list of virtually every major component of the Sonic the Hedgehog video game franchise that was available to the writers of the Archie Comics Sonic the Hedgehog publication at the time. That means no cartoon stuff, no anime, no Japanese game materials. We're talking the games released in the US, their manuals, and their contents.

 

 

Okay, fine. I'm ready to play ball. Let's see how much more there is that went untouched -- all before Ian came along, mind. He was kind of a game changer (no pun intended) in that respect.

I have over 8,000 words, about 20 pages of material here. And it's not even being especially thorough! But it is more than I feel like could be reasonably posted here, so I've attached it as a .txt document for anyone brave enough to go through it.

Oh, and please forgive the formatting -- it was intended to be a forum post here, until I finished and saw the size of what I'd created. Just attaching it seemed like the best compromise.

SonicStuff.txt 48.3 kB · 35 downloads

I wish we had a better way to keep track of it whenever someone wants to check it out, unless I'm missing something...

Also, the link to it -- on the post itself -- instead takes it to the next page. Happens for other posts, too. That happen to anyone else?

Edited Tuesday at 05:12 AM by King Scoopa Koopa