Official Sonic 2006 topic

[Komodin]

That's stupid, the Time eater Cheap shoted both Sonic's just like Mephiles. Distract, and Kill, then the chaos emeralds bring them back to life. And BTW, Mephiles isn't SUPPOSED to be strong. He's the mastermind of Solaris. A Fairer comparison would be to compare Solaris to the Time Eater, and in that comparison Solaris would win. HE exists everywhere at once, and he cannot be defeated in one place in time, he has to be defeated in the past, present and future, while the time eater has to be killed... in a clock... tunnel???

I don't recall the hedgehogs being able to do anything to solaris without the chaos emeralds either so what's your point? 

And I would like to point out that Mephiles IS part of Solaris therefore making him just as credible there are in his regular state.

 

... You didn't actually read a single word of what I wrote, did you? My point, in response to Speedhog's claim of this game's story being better than Generations just because of Mephiles being "the most dangerous villain", was that Mephiles (and by extension, Solaris) being a dangerous villain doesn't necessarily make him/it a good villain. My comparison of Mephiles/Solaris with the Time Eater is supposed to highlight the fact, while they may both be dangerous villains due to what they can do to Sonic's world if they're not stopped, I find them both to be very boring antagonists precisely because there's nothing else to them but that supposed danger.

 

Note: I don't like Generations' story all that much either because I think its nigh-excuse plot is just as bad as 06's pretentious mess of a plot, so don't read this assuming that I hold it in any particularly strong favor.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Giving a villain a mindless set of abilities and claiming 'oh he can beat shadow' doesn't make a good villain.

 

And seriously, using shadow as an example of why he's so good? 

 

In Sonic 06 it's revealed that Omega is able to take shadow out. Omega... an E-Series Robot that can't do, teleporting, time travel, has knowledge or.... anything else that Meph can do... the only thing he does in the game is mindlessly shoot things.

 

In fact in Omega's first outing, Shadow almost takes him out if it wasn't for Rouge. It's a lot less impressive when an E-Series robot who would have been several years old is able to take Shadow out.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

 

In Sonic 06 it's revealed that Omega is able to take shadow out. Omega... an E-Series Robot that can't do, teleporting, time travel, has knowledge or.... anything else that Meph can do... the only thing he does in the game is mindlessly shoot things.

 

In fact in Omega's first outing, Shadow almost takes him out if it wasn't for Rouge. It's a lot less impressive when an E-Series robot who would have been several years old is able to take Shadow out.

Now to be fair, for that case, the notion of Omega being created as the one robot capable of taking Shadow (and Sonic according to the Archie Comics) is a bit supported by the fact that he just so happens to be in the same bunker as Shadow and is activated upon Shadow's release.

 

Not to mention that the fight looked to be still in the draw territory by the time Rouge separated the two.

[MegasonicZX]

I kind of think the fact that sonic didn't even really know about mephiles unitl that point in the story makes the whole "he's the most dangerous" thing a bit invalid because honestly, besides fighting shadow a couple of times he really didn't do much of anything to prove otherwise than just toying with silvers head a little. By the end sonic just thought that eggman was the only enemy he was dealing with, shadow never bothered to tell sonic about mephiles and silver never really mentioned it either so its not really inside of the realm of impossibility that he was was able to surprise sonic like that since sonic wouldn't have known to keep his guard up.

[Adorkable]

Giving a villain a mindless set of abilities and claiming 'oh he can beat shadow' doesn't make a good villain.

 

As true as that may be, shouldn't he be given a little bit of props for being able to take down the ultimate life form? True Mephiles was places in a "bad" game, but I would pat him on the back for being able to take down Shadow and kill Sonic. It's kind of epic, really.

 

 

Omega being created as the one robot capable of taking Shadow (and Sonic according to the Archie Comics)

 

Sources, please? I don't read the comics. ^^"

[Komodin]

As true as that may be, shouldn't he be given a little bit of props for being able to take down the ultimate life form? True Mephiles was places in a "bad" game, but I would pat him on the back for being able to take down Shadow and kill Sonic. It's kind of epic, really.

 

I don't find it all that epic, really. On top of the cheap way he offed Sonic, Mephiles is just too boring an antagonist for me to care much about his accomplishments, however few they are. 

 

That said, I'll admit that I like that laugh he did when he did off Sonic. It's actually somewhat sinister, if a tad hammy.

[Badnik Mechanic]

As true as that may be, shouldn't he be given a little bit of props for being able to take down the ultimate life form? True Mephiles was places in a "bad" game, but I would pat him on the back for being able to take down Shadow and kill Sonic. It's kind of epic, really.

 

No.

 

Because if anything the ultimate Lifeform stance is just as eye rolling as meph's character. Shadow was only really ever called that because they built him up and up to be this epic god like character who was unstoppable, and to appeal to the western audience, which is why they dragged on that line for as long as they did.

 

Which is ridiculous regardless as to how you look at it.

 

"OH NO! The giant creature is attacking the city"

 

"Well why don't we call shadow, he's the ultimate lifeform after all?"

[Tara]

In fact in Omega's first outing, Shadow almost takes him out if it wasn't for Rouge. It's a lot less impressive when an E-Series robot who would have been several years old is able to take Shadow out.

While I do find his abilty to take both characters out a little jarring, I do think it's reasonable to assume that, despite all the abilities Omega doesn't have in comparison to Shadow, he's still a very well-built robot with a fast intellect.  Otherwise, he would probably not be a very fitting contribution to Team Dark, let alone be left to guard Shadow prior to the events of Heroes.

[Diogenes]

As true as that may be, shouldn't he be given a little bit of props for being able to take down the ultimate life form? True Mephiles was places in a "bad" game, but I would pat him on the back for being able to take down Shadow and kill Sonic. It's kind of epic, really.

It's trivially easy to create a character stronger than another character. My fancharacter that I just made up, Bob the Hedgehog, is immortal, super fast, can use chaos control without an emerald, and has a sword that can cut through anything, and he can beat up Sonic, Shadow, and Silver at the same time. Is my character interesting, for being that strong? No, of course not.

What makes an interesting character isn't that they can win a fight, but how they win (or, even, how they lose). Mephiles isn't interesting because he doesn't do anything besides act generically smug and he's just written to survive anything.

[Indigo Rush]

Doesn't help that his very first appearance is that of a Shadow recolor.

 

And don't act like putting crystals on his spikes is much better, either.

 

Mephiles is probably the least original-looking character to ever show up in the series, and seeing how most characters follow the same basic body structure patterns, that's saying a lot.

[Adorkable]

Jeez wiz, fine. Everyone just forget I like Mephiles.

 

 

It's trivially easy to create a character stronger than another character. My fancharacter that I just made up, Bob the Hedgehog, is immortal, super fast, can use chaos control without an emerald, and has a sword that can cut through anything, and he can beat up Sonic, Shadow, and Silver at the same time. 

 

This is basically one of those recolored fan characters in a nutshell xD

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

You can like Meph- Mepeha- Murph- that Shadow looking guy any way you want, comrade. He's just not terribly well-written is all.

While I might be overstepping my bounds in speaking for the lot of us, you'll have to excuse us if we're a touch trigger-happy when it comes to this thread, or this game for that matter. We've had more draining arguments on the subject than is terribly healthy.

[DBZHedgy]

Doesn't help that his very first appearance is that of a Shadow recolor.

 

And don't act like putting crystals on his spikes is much better, either.

 

Mephiles is probably the least original-looking character to ever show up in the series, and seeing how most characters follow the same basic body structure patterns, that's saying a lot.

That's pretty cliche at this point. I was actually quite delighted that no one mistaken him for Shadow except for Silver.

A nice nod towards Sonic Adventure 2. 

 

I find this case more exceptional when considering "recolors", mainly because Shadow is a new entity on his own and he's mistaken for a blue hedgehog, while Mephiles literally takes shadow's shadow and build his new body while taking some of his power.

 

Mephiles is like the third best sonic villain with all of his flaws, Un-original Design in tact.

His little doppelgangers were pretty creative though and in the first fight where Shadow's shadow IS mephiles was pretty cool.

 

Also, who are your top 5 Sonic villains? (Not indigo rush in particular)

 

His plan succeeded by coincidence...nothing else.

 

Silver had nothing to do with how mephiles killed Sonic in the end, so that part of the plan was unnecessary. His knowledge had nothing to do with his plan succeeding, his goal was reached...nothing in his plan worked at all in reaching his goal besides Killing Sonic and Elise crying, both of which he did himself. You'd think that if he was suppose to be written as unpredictable in his actions to reach his goal, that pieces of how he managed to actually achieve his goal would come together in the end...not being able to connect how his actions come together is why Mephiles is seen as incompetent...nothing about his actions actually form a coherent plan under the surface of what was actually happening.

 

Making a villain unpredictable doesn't make them any more of a good villain, it can still be badly written and its not the way Mephiles was written, since nothing of his actions have any deeply hidden connection. Usually a Villain doing unpredicatable things would be seen as clever, only if those things had any actual connection to make sense and its a sign of good writing. 

1) I see your point. But I still do not see how he's the worst sonic villain, much less a bad one in general seeing as how all of them do something incredibly stupid. And the fact that he still came out on top even after failing shows that he had more than one plan to follow through with, unlike a certain Doctor I know. Seriously, how are any Sonic villains better than Mephiles? And on top of that, then why exactly are they better? Even moreso, how are they better if they failed? (Except Adventure 2 Eggman, he's the only good occurrence)

 

Back on topic though, Not necessarily in the idea that it was completely necessary for Silver to kill Sonic, but to keep Silver at bay while Mephiles pursued Shadow, or in other words, giving them something to do in the game. If a villain has to trick someone or something just for the sake of characters doing something, then so be it. At least they aren't running around like morons for no reason at all.

 

Who's to say that Mephiles even planned any of this? Who's to say that he isn't just screwing with everyone for the heck of it? And if So, then why the heck not? There are many villains who just screw around with the villains for fun, so why can't Mephiles? That immediately makes him a bad villain because he doesn't have a plan? Stupid, misguided, or just plain bored, whatever the case, he won in the end, that much cannot be said for several others. And that's probably most likely due to his spastic-ally unpredictable motives, which probably stem from motives that don't even exist. For all we know he could've just been like, "Hey, Shadow's strong, I wonder if he'll be a bad guy for me" or "Oh, this guy looks stupid, maybe he can kill Sonic while I'm screwing with Shadow" maybe even "Oh hey, I can kill this guy to release Iblis while I'm still in the past to consume time and space." Who's to say? 

 

Then again, I don't think Mephiles was made to be cunning, I feel as if he was supposed to be an extension of Shadow. Nothing more or less. Either way, he was still more successful than any other villain Sonic had come across.

 

2)So what your saying is, if Mephiles lost and his plan was totally feasible and easy to understand by everyone (including the protagonists) then he would be a good villain? 

I don't think that's "smart".

In CSA and all that crime investigation type dealios the detectives are always able to determine what the perp is going to do next because they always have ONE plan to go by as well as being downright obvious with the things that they leave behind. Shadow only just realizes that Mephiles is after the chaos emeralds at the END of his campain, and for all we know he couldv'e used the chaos emeralds to clone another conscious self to go and find the other emeralds.

Reckless, stupid, unnecessary or not, I find that to a heck of a lot smarter than any alot of other villains.

------------------------------

Another thing that I want to know is this:

Why is it that when New characters like Silver and Elise were announced, it's "Oh GOD another new Sonic Character!"

Yet, when the story writers reboot another character (or seemingly so) like blaze instead of adding another, people still complain?

That's another Nit Pick that goes around very frequently...

 

 

1)Well Generations didn't really go into time travel that much though. In 06, the game lacked focus on what happens in each time period. Like when Silver goes back to his timeline after helping Sonic through Kingdom Valley, his future is still the same therefore, Sonic still failed. Wouldn't it be a better idea if Silver should've just went with Sonic to save Elise as well, this is my problem with the game. This story is an excuse for all three sub stories to have some sort of reason to go to each level the game has to offer. Was there really any purpose for Sonic and Tails to go to Wave Ocean not once but TWICE! Actually when I think about it how the hell did Omega got into the future in the first place to help Shadow fight Mephiles? Okay, here's what I can remember at the moment, Rouge goes to Tropical Jungle to find Omega. First off, why did Omega go to Tropical Jungle in the first place? So Rouge gave Omega a Chaos Emerald and told him to hide somewhere and go into standby mode for about 200 years to find Shadow, give him the emerald and assist in stopping Mephiles. My head hurts just by trying to make sense of this, it's so convoluted and while Generations doesn't explain where did the Time Eater come from and it was a pure coincidence that Eggman found it, atleast I don't get a fucking headache trying to make sense of the plot. So no, 06 does not justify time travel better than Generations, you can't convince otherwise. This story is a mess and the writers probably didn't know what they were doing either.

 

2) Well there was that one point where Eggman was really fucking close to killing Sonic in Adventure 2, if Sonic didn't saw Shadow using Chaos Control, the guy would be pretty much dead. I don't think that Sonic using Chaos Control was an asspull as somecallmeJohnny thinks, Sonic has already established a connection with the Chaos Energy resonating in the emeralds so when Tails said that he made a fake emerald that has the similar abilities, it was probably enough for Sonic to Chaos Control out of that capsule and saving his ass.

1) So if the game came up with "excuses" for every character to go through all of those levels than that's bad? You would rather that the game just MADE you do the level for no reason whatsoever as a farce to play it again? That's pretty weird... I know I would rather have a reason.

In fact, every sonic game from makes you play over several stages for no reason whatsoever, except for the standard, 'I gotta do this scenario'. I mean just look at Sonic Heroes.

Not just that either:

Sonic Adventure does that

Sonic Adventure 2 does that

Shadow Does that

Sonic Unleashed Does that

Sonic Colors Does that

Sonic Generations does that

and the list goes on

 

I wouldn't say that this is the best occurrence but it certainly isn't the worst either.

 

"Actually when I think about it how the hell did Omega got into the future in the first place to help Shadow fight Mephiles?" (and everything after in that paragraph)

How is that complicated to understand? Rouge goes into the past after being alone while Shadow is still in the future. She then finds and instructs Omega to Assist Shadow and bring him that Chaos Emerald. Since Omega already exists in the future and is in standby mode, he simply wakes up and finds Shadow.

Time travel can get MUCH worse than that though. Just look at the legend of Zelda. Have you SEEN their time travel?

 

2) I love Sonic Adventure 2 so much, but if many parts in Sonic 06 are badly written just for the sake of being "convenient with the plot" than this is terrible too (at least by their standards). People criticize Silver for doing the same thing while they find it completely tolerable in Sonic Adventure 2! WTF

 

 

No.

 

Because if anything the ultimate Lifeform stance is just as eye rolling as meph's character. Shadow was only really ever called that because they built him up and up to be this epic god like character who was unstoppable, and to appeal to the western audience, which is why they dragged on that line for as long as they did.

 

Which is ridiculous regardless as to how you look at it.

 

"OH NO! The giant creature is attacking the city"

 

"Well why don't we call shadow, he's the ultimate lifeform after all?"

Oh wow, just like Sonic. Would ya look at that.

A title is a title, so whatevs.

Sonic is just as overpowered as Shadow. In almost every game nothing can stop him, he barely even gets injured, Anything that should is just a minor annoyance. Roger van der weide has mentioned this and titles him as "Cheap Chuck Norris God". When has Sonic ever been Subdued by ANYTHING OTHER than mephiles? It isn't to say that it was a cheap shot either, I'm quite sure that Mephiles would've overpowered him anyway seeing as how mephiles kept Shadow at bay, Shadow kept Silver at bay, and Silver Wrecked Sonic entirely.

 

 

... You didn't actually read a single word of what I wrote, did you? My point, in response to Speedhog's claim of this game's story being better than Generations just because of Mephiles being "the most dangerous villain", was that Mephiles (and by extension, Solaris) being a dangerous villain doesn't necessarily make him/it a good villain. My comparison of Mephiles/Solaris with the Time Eater is supposed to highlight the fact, while they may both be dangerous villains due to what they can do to Sonic's world if they're not stopped, I find them both to be very boring antagonists precisely because there's nothing else to them but that supposed danger.

 

Note: I don't like Generations' story all that much either because I think its nigh-excuse plot is just as bad as 06's pretentious mess of a plot, so don't read this assuming that I hold it in any particularly strong favor.

 

So if their not "good" villains, mainly because they have the capability to destroy Sonic and such, then people who practically waste their time with fruitless attempts to destory said hedgehogs are better villains, simply because their more organized/understandable?

[pppp]

So if their not "good" villains, mainly because they have the capability to destroy Sonic and such, then people who practically waste their time with fruitless attempts to destory said hedgehogs are better villains, simply because their more organized/understandable?

 

A good villain is a combination of that danger you're talking about PLUS having an interesting character/backstory that gives us insight into why he is evil and why he does the things he does.

 

The reason why prince Zuko from Avatar Last Airbender is a great villain is because we spend time with him and see flashbacks that tell us why he is the way he is, and why catching the Avatar is so important to him.

 

Mephiles is dangerous yeah, but why does he even bother doing all of this convoluted mess of a plan with Silver while he could just kill Sonic himself all along?

 

Also, what is his motivation for destroying the space time continum? He doesn't want to rule the world, he doesn't want revenge on anything, he just wants to fuck up everything for absolutely no reason. For a villain you suggest is good, this is seriously lazy characterization. A villain needs more of a motivation then "Oh, he's evil and very dangerous!". You can't just tell me he's evil and use that as your only excuse.

[DBZHedgy]

 

A good villain is a combination of that danger you're talking about PLUS having an interesting character/backstory that gives us insight into why he is evil and why he does the things he does.

 

The reason why prince Zuko from Avatar Last Airbender is a great villain is because we spend time with him and see flashbacks that tell us why he is the way he is, and why catching the Avatar is so important to him.

 

Mephiles is dangerous yeah, but why does he even bother doing all of this convoluted mess of a plan with Silver while he could just kill Sonic himself all along?

 

Also, what is his motivation for destroying the space time continum? He doesn't want to rule the world, he doesn't want revenge on anything, he just wants to fuck up everything for absolutely no reason. For a villain you suggest is good, this is seriously lazy characterization. A villain needs more of a motivation then "Oh, he's evil and very dangerous!". You can't just tell me he's evil and use that as your only excuse.

If that's the case then No Sonic Villains are actually very good, except Merlina from Sonic and the Black Knight.

She's the only one who has reason for wanting to do all of this mess, or rather the best explanation for it.

 

Haven't you ever heard the quote "Some men just want to see the world burn". Here are some representations of said villains:

Medusa: Soul Eater

Omega Shenron: Dragon Ball GT

Ansem: Kingdom Hearts

Tsunenaga Tamaki: Deadman Wonderland

Majora's Mask: Legend of Zelda

The Joker: Batman

Tabuu: Smash Bros. Brawl

 

and the list goes on...

Furthermore, these characters aren't regarded as 'bad' villains by several people on several standards. Many of them just want destruction and overall chaos, for revenge or an unknown reason or just to do it in general. I fail to see why Mephiles is persecuted while these are not.

 

[Salamander]

The thing I don't understand about Mephiles is why they set up all these parallels between him and Shadow in the first place.  His true form looks like Shadow made of crystals.  He makes himself into a Shadow doppelganger for no reason that I can remember.  He poses as Shadow's shadow during a boss fight.  But there's barely any more connection between him and Shadow than there is for any other character.  Looking around, I gather that this is related to his powers in-universe, that he can absorb somebody's powers and appearance through their shadow, but that's a red herring - that power doesn't really make sense on its own or for him to have, and it's clearly just been contrived so that he will become a Shadow doppelganger.

 

I guess you could just say that he's the villain of Shadow's storyline (in the same way that Eggman is for Sonic's and Iblis for Silver's), but those connections imply something personal (it's not like Eggman looks like Sonic or Silver like Iblis).  Why did the designers and writers style Mephiles this way?  To continue the clone motif associated with Shadow?  To create a personal rival for him?  To me it just seems like that classic anime plot device of creating artificial mystery by having two characters look identical for no good reason (...which they kind of did with Shadow originally, at that, since there's no reason for him to look like Sonic either).  And that just adds to my impression of Mephiles as a shallow character - no, not as a character, but as a walking plot device.  His every action seems wholly dedicated to moving along a plot that makes no sense and has no reason to happen the way it does.

[pppp]

 

 

If that's the case then No Sonic Villains are actually very good, except Merlina from Sonic and the Black Knight.

She's the only one who has reason for wanting to do all of this mess, or rather the best explanation for it.

 

Haven't you ever heard the quote "Some men just want to see the world burn". Here are some representations of said villains:

Medusa: Soul Eater

Omega Shenron: Dragon Ball GT

Ansem: Kingdom Hearts

Tsunenaga Tamaki: Deadman Wonderland

Majora's Mask: Legend of Zelda

The Joker: Batman

Tabuu: Smash Bros. Brawl

 

 

 

Exactly, Merlina is by far the best villain in the series(the serious ones anyway).

 

As for the "wanna see the world burn" archetype, those villains are only interesting when the story makes one of its main draws the mystery of who he is, which is why the Joker in the Dark Knight is interesting. Also, the Joker's insanity and lack of reasoning worked in the Dark Knight because Nolan went for a Yin Yang dynamic between the 2. Batman uses logic and deductive reasoning to figure things out and has a strict code where he never stoops to the lows of the criminals. The Joker however is the exact opposite: He believes there is no point in trying to make the world a better place cause "when the chips are down, these civilised people will eat each other". Everyone is only as good as the world allows them to be. Also, Joker is absolutely random and chaotic, having basically no plan and going with the flow, which is the exact opposite of Batman's MO.

 

What makes this especially interesting to think about is how both opinions can be taken as either wrong or right. Some people think Batman refusing to kill people is stupid, as if a criminal won't stop being one he should die. Some people believe the Joker is right, even if they still find the things he says barbaric. Batman represents good and reason and the Joker represents evil and anarchy.

 

The "wanna see the world burn" archetype is only interesting if the story makes the lack of background a necessity of the story. Otherwise, they're just lazily written villains, like all those examples of villains, except for Joker and Ansem.

 

I'm guessing by Ansem you mean Xehanort and all his various forms in all the games. In Birth by Sleep and KH3D we learn where he comes from and how he became the insane obsessive man he is, so there's a background, therefore he is irrelevant to this discussion.

[Gabz Girl]

I knew from the day Mephiles was first revealed as the villain of Sonic 06, that he was a lame villain. Oh sure he looks badass but...he just looks like a crystallised version of Shadow. Everyone back then was gushing about how awesome he looked and all I could think was "Really? Yet another hedgehog? And a Shadow recolour at that?" Which brings me this...

 

The thing I don't understand about Mephiles is why they set up all these parallels between him and Shadow in the first place.  His true form looks like Shadow made of crystals.  He makes himself into a Shadow doppelganger for no reason that I can remember.  He poses as Shadow's shadow during a boss fight.  But there's barely any more connection between him and Shadow than there is for any other character.  Looking around, I gather that this is related to his powers in-universe, that he can absorb somebody's powers and appearance through their shadow, but that's a red herring - that power doesn't really make sense on its own or for him to have, and it's clearly just been contrived so that he will become a Shadow doppelganger.

 

I guess you could just say that he's the villain of Shadow's storyline (in the same way that Eggman is for Sonic's and Iblis for Silver's), but those connections imply something personal (it's not like Eggman looks like Sonic or Silver like Iblis).  Why did the designers and writers style Mephiles this way?  To continue the clone motif associated with Shadow?  To create a personal rival for him?  To me it just seems like that classic anime plot device of creating artificial mystery by having two characters look identical for no good reason (...which they kind of did with Shadow originally, at that, since there's no reason for him to look like Sonic either).  And that just adds to my impression of Mephiles as a shallow character - no, not as a character, but as a walking plot device.  His every action seems wholly dedicated to moving along a plot that makes no sense and has no reason to happen the way it does.

 

As far as I know they never explain in game why he looks like Shadow. If his true form is very similar to Shadow, why is that? Do they share DNA? Do they have some sort of relation to eachother?

 

I think they did it cos they couldn't think of an original design, so decided to copy the most "badass" hedgehog's design instead. 8I

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Part of the reason Mephiles came out as such a poor villain is the combination of the story and it's plotholes, coupled with his lack of an actual reputation from any previous games. 

 

With a villain like Eggman,  you've got the preceding games to help fill in the blanks about his ego and why he hasn't just snuffed Sonic out lickety split. Hell,  Adventure 1's story hosts the notion that the Doctor leaves Sonic alive to help further his own goals at the time. 

 

Now with other one timers like say,  Erazor Djinn or Merlina,  the story actually avoids splurging with plotholes and actually gives them legit plans,  motives and methods that don't practically force us to fill in the blanks with "this guy/gal is an idiot" and instead makes them legit foes. 

 

Mephiles had neither of those luxuries and thus his reputation pays the price for such. 

[Blacklightning]

As far as I know they never explain in game why he looks like Shadow. If his true form is very similar to Shadow, why is that? Do they share DNA? Do they have some sort of relation to eachother?

Narrative wise, I imagine it was because Mephiles didn't actually have a physical form prior (we learn this much in Shadow/Silver's Aquatic Base stage) and could only imitate another's if he didn't want to be some generic black goop. That Shadow and Rouge were the only ones around when he needed one was practically a coincidence, and I'm sure he'd seen enough ten years prior to know that Shadow was the more appealing option.

 

That being said, it doesn't stop it from being both an utterly asinine character trait and a stale, boring plot point. At the very, very least he could've switched forms every now and then to fuck with everyone's heads while he was at it.

[DBZHedgy]

The thing I don't understand about Mephiles is why they set up all these parallels between him and Shadow in the first place.  His true form looks like Shadow made of crystals.  He makes himself into a Shadow doppelganger for no reason that I can remember.  He poses as Shadow's shadow during a boss fight.  But there's barely any more connection between him and Shadow than there is for any other character.  Looking around, I gather that this is related to his powers in-universe, that he can absorb somebody's powers and appearance through their shadow, but that's a red herring - that power doesn't really make sense on its own or for him to have, and it's clearly just been contrived so that he will become a Shadow doppelganger.

 

I guess you could just say that he's the villain of Shadow's storyline (in the same way that Eggman is for Sonic's and Iblis for Silver's), but those connections imply something personal (it's not like Eggman looks like Sonic or Silver like Iblis).  Why did the designers and writers style Mephiles this way?  To continue the clone motif associated with Shadow?  To create a personal rival for him?  To me it just seems like that classic anime plot device of creating artificial mystery by having two characters look identical for no good reason (...which they kind of did with Shadow originally, at that, since there's no reason for him to look like Sonic either).  And that just adds to my impression of Mephiles as a shallow character - no, not as a character, but as a walking plot device.  His every action seems wholly dedicated to moving along a plot that makes no sense and has no reason to happen the way it does.

I think it's a nod to Sonic Adventure 2. It sure does feel like it. Mephiles is almost quite literally a fake shadow, and in adventure 2, Sonic always referred to him as 'faker'. 

 

Either way, it seems as though, as said earlier, Mephiles was made for the sole reason of extending shadow's character, or for allowing the character to be revealed even more. 

 

On the connection standpoint, I don't really think there is a solid standpoint. His role is the same as black doom's at this point, get Shadow on his side, and if that doesn't work, trash everything including him.

 

 

As far as I know they never explain in game why he looks like Shadow. If his true form is very similar to Shadow, why is that? Do they share DNA? Do they have some sort of relation to eachother?

 

I think they did it cos they couldn't think of an original design, so decided to copy the most "badass" hedgehog's design instead. 8I

Mephiles was just a black shadow until he absorbed Shadow's shadow. So yes, they did explain it in game.

And his true form is an extension apon the look he took from shadow.

 

 

Exactly, Merlina is by far the best villain in the series(the serious ones anyway).

 

As for the "wanna see the world burn" archetype, those villains are only interesting when the story makes one of its main draws the mystery of who he is, which is why the Joker in the Dark Knight is interesting. Also, the Joker's insanity and lack of reasoning worked in the Dark Knight because Nolan went for a Yin Yang dynamic between the 2. Batman uses logic and deductive reasoning to figure things out and has a strict code where he never stoops to the lows of the criminals. The Joker however is the exact opposite: He believes there is no point in trying to make the world a better place cause "when the chips are down, these civilised people will eat each other". Everyone is only as good as the world allows them to be. Also, Joker is absolutely random and chaotic, having basically no plan and going with the flow, which is the exact opposite of Batman's MO.

 

What makes this especially interesting to think about is how both opinions can be taken as either wrong or right. Some people think Batman refusing to kill people is stupid, as if a criminal won't stop being one he should die. Some people believe the Joker is right, even if they still find the things he says barbaric. Batman represents good and reason and the Joker represents evil and anarchy.

 

The "wanna see the world burn" archetype is only interesting if the story makes the lack of background a necessity of the story. Otherwise, they're just lazily written villains, like all those examples of villains, except for Joker and Ansem.

 

I'm guessing by Ansem you mean Xehanort and all his various forms in all the games. In Birth by Sleep and KH3D we learn where he comes from and how he became the insane obsessive man he is, so there's a background, therefore he is irrelevant to this discussion.

In this case then, I agree with you. However, In Ansem's case, I was referring to his pivotal appearance in Kingdom Hearts exclusively. In this scenario, all he really wants to do is drown everything in darkness as far as the audience knew before Birth by Sleep and Dream Drop Distance were released. How does he fair as a good villain without the further explanation of BBS and DDD?

[Indigo Rush]

That being said, it doesn't stop it from being both an utterly asinine character trait and a stale, boring plot point. At the very, very least he could've switched forms every now and then to fuck with everyone's heads while he was at it.

 

 

That should have been what happened.

 

That really should have been what happened.

 

Had those writers any semblance of competence, they would have gone that route with a villain that's a bloody shapeshifter.

 

Gah this just makes me hate the game even more. 

[Kuzu]

We're still talking about how much of a shit villain Mephiles was? I thought we established this already.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 

That should have been what happened.

 

That really should have been what happened.

 

Had those writers any semblance of competence, they would have gone that route with a villain that's a bloody shapeshifter.

 

Gah this just makes me hate the game even more. 

 

It's funny, because that might have actually made much of the plot work, and Mephiles might have earned the credibility of being an effective character.

 

His shapeshifting ties with his insanity; he changes all the time because, just like his mind is unstable, his form has no default shape. And because of his instability he wants to destroy existence, his craving of destruction, and almost succeeding at it. It's the exactly the kind of omnicidal motive that made Kefka Palazzo of FFVI such a memorable villain rivaling that of Sephiroth.

 

Of course, that still leaves the problem of making Sonic and Eggman completely uninvolved in the real threat. But that can be easily fixed - and by that I mean re-write the whole damn narrative from scratch.

[DBZHedgy]

Part of the reason Mephiles came out as such a poor villain is the combination of the story and it's plotholes, coupled with his lack of an actual reputation from any previous games. 

 

With a villain like Eggman,  you've got the last games to help fill in the blanks about his ego and why he hasn't just snuffed Sonic out lickety split. Hell,  Adventure 1's story hosts the notion that the Doctor leaves Sonic alive to help further his own goals at the time. 

 

Now with other one timers like say,  Erazor Djinn or Merlina,  the story actually avoids splurging with plotholes and actually gives them legit plans,  motives and methods that don't practically force us to fill in the blanks with "this guy/gal is an idiot" and instead makes them legit foes. 

 

Mephiles had neither of those luxuries and thus his reputation pays the price for such. 

Again with the aforementioned plotholes without the mention of said plotholes...

 

Eggman wasn't very egotistic or cocky in general at all before Colors. In Adventure he kept sonic alive SOLELY so that Sonic could collect the chaos emeralds for him, he attacked whenever he could in hopes to either defeat Sonic or get the chaos emeralds, not to gloat or shove it in his face at all. He only did this when the circumstances played in his favor. He never did anything at all JUST so he could gloat, ESPECIALLY keeping Sonic alive. Eggman tried to kill Sonic EVERY CHANCE HE GOT. That's not egotistic at all.

 

Erazor Djinn is just as generic as mephiles. He uses people to get what he wants, and he erases everything from the world they reside in. How exactly is that any different from mephiles' character? 

 

Merlina was awesome, nuff' said

 

Mephiles is only fated to be seen as a bad villain or character in general because of the overall standpoint of the game itself. Look at the general similarities between so many other 'good' villains, yet he's still classified as bad. Look at Silver, many people hate him simply because he was in Sonic 06 itself. The guy acts exactly like knuckles in Sonic 3, and he gets flack for it just because he's in a game people don't like. 

 

Either way, Mephiles isn't the best villain ever, but he isn't the worst either. The Destroy everything standpoint is very viable from several inferences, yet the confusion that the plot gives off to many people generally give them motive to hate it. Nothing that needs to be explained has to be explained about mephiles. What more could he say but the every so frequent "I'm a god, you couldn't understand it anyway", wouldn't it make more sense for an unfathomable being to NOT make sense since he's of higher essence then mere mortals? 

 

That being said, it doesn't stop it from being both an utterly asinine character trait and a stale, boring plot point. At the very, very least he could've switched forms every now and then to fuck with everyone's heads while he was at it.

Who's to say that he had this luxury to begin with? And what edge would that provide even if he could? Like someone would trust a black shadow more than a mono-colorized hedgehog? I would find the mono-colorized hedgehog more trusting, I don't know about you.

 

That should have been what happened.

 

That really should have been what happened.

 

Had those writers any semblance of competence, they would have gone that route with a villain that's a bloody shapeshifter.

 

Gah this just makes me hate the game even more. 

You can't be serious...

You really can't be serious...

 

How would that AT ALL make anything in the story any LESS complicated if he could do so? 

 

Also, I'd like to point out AGAIN, that one of the writers for this game wrote Sonic Adventure 2's plot, therefore they MUST have some shred of competence.