Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[DabigRG]

 Tails!  Of!  Interest! 

Just now, knuckles20 said:

No I mean Sega Forums before it shut down and revamped itself

Was the revamped name Sega 16?

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

I never said people did that here. But I have experienced it from people on Sega Forums, Game grumps and the infamous IGN video who mock people who like the adventure era games.

I would say your best bet is just say "fuck them" and like what you want to like, but also be open minded as well.

 

Especially since nobody here is (hopefully) insulting you over your preferences.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Budget's not the concern, reception is.

...

So then it was done out of demand of Classic fans, which you’re reinforcing with this statement.

Quote

How your main character sounds is a pretty big deal, and Classic Sonic's never had a canon voice. Instead of risking picking a voice that people wouldn't be happy with they just kept him silent.

Neither did Classic Tails or Eggman, and yet they miraculously got a voice despite that.

Again, I highly doubt they’d have any trouble finding a voice for Classic Sonic. They chose not to no doubt because those same fans have made it clear they would have complained just because Classic Sonic would have a voice regardless—which ironically enough upset those who expected him to have one, rather than be literally the only one without it.

[Shadowlax]

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't keep your preferences, but being open minded is also kind of important?

I feel like everyone who's engaged with sonic has been open minded for quite some time and has been dissapointed. So someone having more pointed demands makes sense

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

If you're so rigid with what you want, then you'll never be satisfied.

I mean I dunno

In  a world where mania exists and is a thing that's real. The pandora's box is open for quite a number of people. Why engage when you saw a whole section of the base literally got that thing they wanted.

Sega has to deal with that now, its why the cries for adventure remakes are so loud now.

[knuckles20]

50 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I would say your best bet is just say "fuck them" and like what you want to like, but also be open minded as well.

 

Especially since nobody here is (hopefully) insulting you over your preferences.

Just because no one here has been a douchebag about it here that doesn’t change that I’ve seen people outside of SSMB acting like obnoxious jerks towards the adventure games and I’m done being open mined to people who want to discard everything I like about Sonic. I was open minded with Unleashed and that’s never happening again when people can’t put out a review of a Sonic game without moaning how 06 ruined their lives.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Just because no one here has been a douchebag about it here that doesn’t change that I’ve seen people outside of SSMB acting like obnoxious jerks towards the adventure games and I’m done being open mined to people who want to discard everything I like about Sonic. I was open minded with Unleashed and that’s never happening again when people can’t put out a review of a Sonic game without moaning how 06 ruined their lives.

Be the better person and keep being open minded in spite of that.

Have a backbone of course, but people being close minded says a lot about them than it does you.

As an added note, don’t stress yourself too much over those who can stop moaning about a decade old game ruining their lives for a few years.

[knuckles20]

15 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Be the better person and keep being open minded in spite of that.

Have a backbone of course, but people being close minded says a lot about them than it does you.

I was open minded in 2008 and yet a decade later I’m still hearing the same crap of 3D was a mistake, Sonic is the only character we can care about, we need to go back to Sonic’s roots even though we were just there 5 minutes ago.

I was willing to give TSR a chance on the possibility it would be on par with the first two Rider games (it was middle of the road for me). I was optimistic about boom where I can care about the plot and characters again until production issues cause what could have been an intriguing subdivision to be discarded on the cutting room floor (Look up Sonic Synergy).  But please explain to me what you consider to be “open minded” because I feel that we have conflicting views on what that means.

[ComeAsYouAre]

27 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Be the better person and keep being open minded in spite of that.

Have a backbone of course, but people being close minded says a lot about them than it does you.

As an added note, don’t stress yourself too much over those who can stop moaning about a decade old game ruining their lives for a few years.

Meh, from what I have seen on other forums a lot of the people he is talking about are literally "Comic Books guy" tier, those kind of people deserve to be mocked and fought back against 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, knuckles20 said:

I was open minded in 2008 and yet a decade later I’m still hearing the same crap of 3D was a mistake, Sonic is the only character we can care about, we need to go back to Sonic’s roots even though we were just there 5 minutes ago.

Try 2004-05, right in the thick of the fire as it all began. That’s how long I’ve been on this forum and exploring the internet as it all began to take fruit (and if you need further vouching, ask our moderator Tornado who’s been around longer).

I know the feeling. I keep at it mainly because every other franchise somehow gets all this right except for Sonic, but that in itself shows me it can be done.

Quote

But please explain to me what you consider to be “open minded” because I feel that we have conflicting views on what that means.

Understanding information, the idea you might be wrong, and considerate of any new ideas that you can integrate without devaluing your own ideas?

58 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Meh, from what I have seen on other forums a lot of the people he is talking about are literally "Comic Books guy" tier, those kind of people deserve to be mocked and fought back against 

Sounds like it. But my advice would still be the same, because you don’t want overreacting “Comic Books guy” nuisances to add more stress.

[Big Panda]

Secret Rings’ ending, where Sonic wishes for a mountain of handkerchiefs for Shahra, was lovely.

“Just let yourself cry, as much as you need to”.

[Multikaris]

On 10/19/2019 at 5:21 PM, knuckles20 said:

Around the time they announced Mania and Forces. There were trolls who just mocked anyone for preferring the adventure style games. It got so bad I left and joined here. I’m sure other users here were on Sega Forums as well so they can confirm it.

I was there. There were some major critics of the adventure style there.

[Splash the Otter]

On 10/19/2019 at 8:21 PM, knuckles20 said:

Around the time they announced Mania and Forces. There were trolls who just mocked anyone for preferring the adventure style games. It got so bad I left and joined here. I’m sure other users here were on Sega Forums as well so they can confirm it.

Can confirm, the Sega forums were very anti-Adventure. I remember one user in particular named Reichskommissar who hated Sonic Adventure and blamed it for the series' entire downfall.

[Guergy]

8 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

Can confirm, the Sega forums were very anti-Adventure. I remember one user in particular named Reichskommissar who hated Sonic Adventure and blamed it for the series' entire downfall.

Is that so? That is disheartening to hear.

[Kuzu]

https://benignmilitancy.tumblr.com/post/188026755823/benignmilitancy-so-uh-would-anyone-be

 

So I found  this post on why Sega decided to...change Shadow completely. The short version is that his character isn't defined enough unless the plot is specifically tailored around him, and that changing him into what he is now...was their way of giving him a purpose and justified reason for still being around (getting into pissing contests with Sonic)

 

 

I don't...hate that change, but its so very...misguided and basically requires you to ignore everything that's happened to the character in the past. 

[DabigRG]

13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

https://benignmilitancy.tumblr.com/post/188026755823/benignmilitancy-so-uh-would-anyone-be

 

So I found  this post on why Sega decided to...change Shadow completely. The short version is that his character isn't defined enough unless the plot is specifically tailored around him, and that changing him into what he is now...was their way of giving him a purpose and justified reason for still being around (getting into pissing contests with Sonic)

 

 

I don't...hate that change, but its so very...misguided and basically requires you to ignore everything that's happened to the character in the past. 

Since when does he like nothing?

Also, "Apparently it didn’t occur to me that Sperm Donor’s arrival and Westopolis’ destruction was more than mere coincidence."

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sounds like another case of not being very creative—someone basically took the entire phrase of “Shadow has no purpose anymore” too much to heart and rolled over to it rather than proving it wrong.

Shit’s just spiraling into messes left and right.

[Kuzu]

38 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Since when does he like nothing?

Also, "Apparently it didn’t occur to me that Sperm Donor’s arrival and Westopolis’ destruction was more than mere coincidence."

 

That's actually canon lol.

Go on his Sonic Channel profile, and his likes is literally "Nothing".

20 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Sounds like another case of not being very creative—someone basically took the entire phrase of “Shadow has no purpose anymore” too much to heart and rolled over to it rather than proving it wrong.

Shit’s just spiraling into messes left and right.

 

Like...I KIND of get it, since the people who wrote Shadow's initial stories are likely no longer working on the series, so the current writers are likely just going off of secondhand information. Additionally, the direction of the series has simply shifted to where something like stories that centered on Shadow simply would not fit any more. So they're kind of in a precarious position to begin with.

 

But ugh, UGH. It's actual character assassination what they're doing with him, and its so damn disappointing to see. 

[DabigRG]

12 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That's actually canon lol.

Go on his Sonic Channel profile, and his likes is literally "Nothing".

What in the world...?

[Kuzu]

Its probably meant to represent that he's "Super serious and therefore likes nothing, because he's so serious" But yea, its pretty funny otherwise. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Like...I KIND of get it, since the people who wrote Shadow's initial stories are likely no longer working on the series, so the current writers are likely just going off of secondhand information. Additionally, the direction of the series has simply shifted to where something like stories that centered on Shadow simply would not fit any more. So they're kind of in a precarious position to begin with.

 

But ugh, UGH. It's actual character assassination what they're doing with him, and its so damn disappointing to see. 

Starting to think that the restrictions they gave Ian on writing Shadow might actually be because they don’t want his version overshadowing theirs as the preferred direction.

[Kuzu]

10 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Starting to think that the restrictions they gave Ian on writing Shadow might actually be because they don’t want his version overshadowing theirs as the preferred direction.

I'm starting to think Flynn has a similar problem actually. His version of Shadow has always been much more...vulnerable, compared to say, Sonic or Knuckles.

He makes a lot more mistakes and doesn't seem as powerful as he was generally portrayed as in the games.

Which isn't really an inherent problem, but Flynn has a tendency to sideline Shadow in a given plot if he's not its main focus or downplay his abilities somewhat to give a sense of struggle.

The Boom writers have said that they limited Shadow's appearances because they didn't want to ruin the character.

 

That post I mentioned before also mentioned how he's a very context sensitive character; Shadow's character is really hard to work around if the story isn't centered on him in some way, because he's canonically one of the most powerful characters in the setting and the main character's equal. He's not really a character that works in a secondary role...unless you change his entire personality and demeanor, which is where we are now. 

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I'm starting to think Flynn has a similar problem actually. His version of Shadow has always been much more...vulnerable, compared to say, Sonic or Knuckles.

He makes a lot more mistakes and doesn't seem as powerful as he was generally portrayed as in the games.

Which isn't really an inherent problem, but Flynn has a tendency to sideline Shadow in a given plot if he's not its main focus or downplay his abilities somewhat to give a sense of struggle.

The Boom writers have said that they limited Shadow's appearances because they didn't want to ruin the character.

To be fair, that was almost a necessary weasel considering how overpowered and unflappable he and to a lesser extent Blaze are. 

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

 

 

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I'm starting to think Flynn has a similar problem actually. His version of Shadow has always been much more...vulnerable, compared to say, Sonic or Knuckles.

Are you suggesting that flynn doesn't want his version of shadow to be over shadowed? Trying to understand what you mean

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

He makes a lot more mistakes and doesn't seem as powerful as he was generally portrayed as in the games.

I feel like that's more reflective of pre-boot shadow. Reboot shadow seemed to be the first time he had to allign him up to game shadow and he's a pretty strong dude. So he focused his insecurities around himself, which at least IMO is a much more interesting take.

 

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

The Boom writers have said that they limited Shadow's appearances because they didn't want to ruin the character.

Makes sense, that show was supposed to accompany games. With at least a more "action focused " tone that would make the characters look better in contrast to the jokier tone of the show.  And with those games failing you are left with the comedy show, which requires someone to be the butt of the joke. And shadow essentially having no defined personality in boom, it would make him look really bad. So I guess they kept him to episodes where he wasn't the main plot point. So you didn't have to think about why he was there too hard. He was a narrative vessel rather than a character

 

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

 

That post I mentioned before also mentioned how he's a very context sensitive character; Shadow's character is really hard to work around if the story isn't centered on him in some way, because he's canonically one of the most powerful characters in the setting and the main character's equal. He's not really a character that works in a secondary role...unless you change his entire personality and demeanor, which is where we are now. 

I mean, he's still not working

[Shadowlax]

7 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Sounds like another case of not being very creative—someone basically took the entire phrase of “Shadow has no purpose anymore” too much to heart and rolled over to it rather than proving it wrong.

Shit’s just spiraling into messes left and right.

Yeah

" We can't figure out what to do with this character"

"Write stories with him in them. People like him a lot "

" No, tho we will change his whole character"

"Then people might not like him anymore"

"NOPE , too late already did it. And now to not listen to any criticism of my decisions whatsoever until everything is burned to the ground so hard we either have to get rid of it or do everything over. The Sega Sonic way "

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

https://benignmilitancy.tumblr.com/post/188026755823/benignmilitancy-so-uh-would-anyone-be

 

So I found  this post on why Sega decided to...change Shadow completely. The short version is that his character isn't defined enough unless the plot is specifically tailored around him, and that changing him into what he is now...was their way of giving him a purpose and justified reason for still being around (getting into pissing contests with Sonic)

 

 

I don't...hate that change, but its so very...misguided and basically requires you to ignore everything that's happened to the character in the past. 

 

I would say I hate it, not just because of shadow. If this is the case, it shows how little they think of their franchise as a whole

" Oh hey some of our characters out of context are kind of weird so what do we do "

Make products that define them more, build a world build the characters show people why they have value and why people valued them in the first place. Its very clear the friend removal didn't ever help, so why not use this opportunity to actually show folks why they have value? It seems like a very unimaginative take and makes me feel like to use the analogy in that tumblr post. That that they aren't even attempting to drive the car, they just put it in neutral and is letting the force of the universe take them where they may

 

I like this part of the post in particular

Quote

it doesn’t actually solve the problem of Shadow’s lack of distinctive personality. Being in a story just to serve as the “fight me” guy seems rather arbitrary at this point, as it provides little insight into his character. We’ve known since SA2 that he’ll try to get a leg up over Sonic. Without further follow-up to elucidate on that concept—why is he so competitive? idk, he just is—it won’t be a particularly groundbreaking trait to explore.

Though I feel like the problem with this post , some of your posts , and some of the people in the comic focused threads even when not about shadow is this " Explore" the implication with that phrase suggests that sega will allow them to go any further than a surface level take with these characters. And I dunno if that's the case anymore. Any type of depth of any characters in the book can now be recontextualized as working within limited perimeters rather than exploration of what could be. Not " Oh this is interesting " but " Oh that makes sense, i guess" , obviously some characters have it harder than others. Shadow's a popular guy, they might want his character to specifically be a way because they think its a way to " retain popularity ". But even then i still fear for characters like amy who outside of spouting exposition for forces a thing I hate that she has been relegated to, doesn't really get to be a character much

To end this though

Quote

I don't...hate that change, but its so very...misguided and basically requires you to ignore everything that's happened to the character in the past. 

I feel the opposite. I hate the change, I just don't hate the idea they want you you to ignore everything. I was born in the fire and flames of dumb super hero books, so ... i'm less upset they want that and more upset they just wont...reboot. They kind of want that with a lot of sonic stuff, just make a new sonic brand. My primary issue is that these characters are supposed to be the same, and they are trying to use that to mine nostalgia but it isn't working. If you have new ideas for characters that are contradictory to old ones, they just reboot the shit , start a new brand I dunno. You wanna change shadow cool , i'm expecting it but do it in a way it can stand on its own and not look like a pale imitation of what he once was. So that way, if you fail you can blame the interpretation rather than the character itself, which is what is happening now.

 

If you wanna get dirty we could have an entire conversation about what is happening to show being representative of a lot of issues with sonic itself. And shadow always has kind of been a character who you can't point to and say " Well that's yer problem " . He's a good bullshit detector

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I'm starting to think Flynn has a similar problem actually. His version of Shadow has always been much more...vulnerable, compared to say, Sonic or Knuckles.

He makes a lot more mistakes and doesn't seem as powerful as he was generally portrayed as in the games.

Which isn't really an inherent problem, but Flynn has a tendency to sideline Shadow in a given plot if he's not its main focus or downplay his abilities somewhat to give a sense of struggle.

The Boom writers have said that they limited Shadow's appearances because they didn't want to ruin the character.

If you ask me, Ian’s actually one of the few official writers who understands how to write the character.

His best takes were his time in Archie. He may have a tendency to sideline him like how he had Shadow play second fiddle to Knuckles in Shattered, but it was still the same pragmatic and reasonable, albeit stubborn Shadow I came to enjoy.

IDW tends to amplify his stubbornness—which I know is weird given how Archie!Shadow got into a fist fight with Knuckles over the Master Emerald’s safety, but despite that there was this sense that Shadow knew better and wasn’t so arrogant not to take advice from someone over something when in a serious situation.

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

 

That post I mentioned before also mentioned how he's a very context sensitive character; Shadow's character is really hard to work around if the story isn't centered on him in some way, because he's canonically one of the most powerful characters in the setting and the main character's equal. He's not really a character that works in a secondary role...unless you change his entire personality and demeanor, which is where we are now. 

Okay, as much as I can understand how difficult writing is, I need to be blunt about this one—no, he’s not.

Shadow is as versatile as Sonic the Hedgehog, if not any character. His entire personality and demeanor doesn’t need to be changed for him to be in a secondary role—it’s a simple matter of just keeping his secondary position in mind!

Like, if you wanted to focus more on Rouge in a story and Shadow’s a secondary character, just keep the focus on Rouge! It’s not like he can be in a less intense role than it is people only associating him with said major roles.

People are inherently restricting him—not that his personality and demeanor should be disregarded or changed, but he’d be more flexible as his usual self if people weren’t so rigid about the character.