Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Gates to Infinity (Nintendo 3DS)

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

It just isn't me that doesn't like the game. I found it fun the first time around, but it really lost the charm after a while. First game, then second, then an enhanced version, and now a 3rd game? Meh, does it add anything new besides 3D graphics?

Funny you should say that.

The Pokemon games are unique in Nintendo's library for being some of the most stagnate games in their entire line-up which is odd, because by all rights it should be a fresh experience with every game. Their are new gyms, new upgrades, new Pokemon, whole new lands to explore and interact with in every main game in the series. Zelda can't say that much; for most every game in the series, the adventure never leaves the land of Hyrule, and the power-ups are mostly the same throughout the series. Kirby's main series can't say much either; it's always "rescue Dreamland" and "fight the same enemies you have since the beginning of time." Why then, do people always consider the Pokemon games to be just rehash after rehash? To answer this question, we'll need to take a bit of a detour. Anyone remember the classic Mega Man games?

Back in the good old NES days, the Mega Man was generally considered to be one of the best around, and Mega Man II is considered by a few to be one of the greatest games ever made (and I, III, and IV weren't all that shabby, either). Nowadays, despite the Classic series spanning now ten games, fans will only usually agree on about five good entries amongst them. How did could that have happened? The games introduced new Robot Masters, new power-ups, new characters, and new upgrades for pretty much its entire run. So, what happened?

After some point in the original run of the games, it became clear that Capcom wasn't making new Mega Man games out of any creative spark or what-have-you. They were pushing out games with the bare-minimum of updates just to keep people buying new Mega Man games until the end of time. They weren't trying to make a great game anymore, they were trying to perfect a formula. All those neat doo-dads were just red herrings. It was the same old Mega Man, same old graphics, same old level gimmicks, same old freaking disappearing blocks. No matter how much the outside of the games changed, the core stayed exactly the same. That old magic was used up. People stopped buying Mega Man.

Pokemon evolved (no pun intended) in a similar way. From Gen. II to Gen IV, Pokemon put out the bare minimum it needed to keep moving games. You liked Gen. I? Well good sir, here's Gen. I with a cool phone and genders for Pokemon. Still like Gen. I? Here's a touch of Gen. I with double battles and some Contests. I may be alone among the pack, but I didn't get into Pokemon because I wanted to battle Gym Leaders or win a bunch of contests. I got into Pokemon because I wanted to have a pet dragon, sail about the earth on a giant turtle, explore these new and interesting lands, and test my prowess against beings possibly older than humanity itself. To be honest, I couldn't care less about how the tournament scene may have changed thanks to a new game. I didn't want a new moveset, I wanted a new adventure. And you know? Up 'till Black and White, I had never really got one.

But why then, should I care a lick about the Mystery Dungeon games? It is in ways more repetitive than the even the main series. On paper, I shouldn't even consider the series worth a moment of my time. You know why I love these games? Because I'm facing monsters older than the stars. I'm traveling through a grand and intriguing world full of grand and intriguing characters. I am no longer merely an owner of a dragon; he is my greatest companion and treasured friend. There is some lovely adventure found in these games. Some sort of magic that the main series is only just getting a breath of.

[The Kid]

According to Serebii, they got rid of the personality test, now the Pokémon that you are is determined by a photo taken of your face through the 3DS front camera.

There goes my Charmander and here comes Chikorita, if they are there anyway.

Well I guess I'm going to get Garbodor, and there is no way to change it.

...

That was an ugly joke btw.

[Autosaver]

But why then, should I care a lick about the Mystery Dungeon games? It is in ways more repetitive than the even the main series. On paper, I shouldn't even consider the series worth a moment of my time. You know why I love these games? Because I'm facing monsters older than the stars. I'm traveling through a grand and intriguing world full of grand and intriguing characters. I am no longer merely an owner of a dragon; he is my greatest companion and treasured friend. There is some lovely adventure found in these games. Some sort of magic that the main series is only just getting a breath of.

Yup! This is one of the reasons I actually like digging into the series. The story and atmosphere is just so awesome that sometimes, quirks with the gameplay can be pushed aside. I love bawling my eyes out at the endings and I love making friends with my companions. It also brings a bunch of nostalgia into my eyes thanks to the one Animated Promo for the dungeon games.

Really, this is probably the #1 reason to play the dungeon games. You may or may not like the rougelike battle system, but I'm sure you'll like the story. It'll suck you in and out from beginning to end. Many games these days have stories that aren't that convincing or just good overall. Dungeon? It WILL convince you to keep playing and it will make you think twice about dropping the game.

[MykonosFan]

What? D= No, no, no. At least with the quiz I could change my answers around so I got the Pokemon I want. This photo thing however...something tells me I'm going to be stuck with something I don't want...

Maybe you could snap an artwork shot of the Pokemon you want?

Well I guess I'm going to get Garbodor, and there is no way to change it.

...

That was an ugly joke btw.

I really want to like this post because it made me laugh, but I don't want to be mean. Also may participate in the main discussion (so many words!!!) but I'm dead tired at the moment. Later!

[Blacklightning]

Why do you continually ignore my points about Pokemon B&W adding a huge level of complexity when dealing with Natures, IVs, EVs, etc?

...and he says this in spite of addressing an argument about exactly that in the very next quote. Outstanding. Let's just skip the victim complex and get straight to that, then:

Seriously, the way you brush off the idea of B&W being complex or casual depending on the way you play is completely ridiculous.

And heeeeeere come the strawmen. Closest I ever came to claiming that was discerning "complexity" that is ultimately pointless to the metagame when there already existed mechanics in the core that accomplished virtually the same purpose. I'll get to that in just a bit when actual counterpoints show up.

You call my arguments retarded, but please try to step into Serebii.net and proudly exclaim that the game is very basic.

...where on earth did you get that from? How exactly did you derive that from "there is lots and lots of dull, monotonous, unrewarding grinding"?

You'll instantly be rebounded with how Pokemon has a much deeper level that many fail to realize. Do you even know what EVs are? IVs? Natures? ...Do you even understand how they impact the game?

So you're saying Pokemon, an RPG, has... stats. Amazing. What's new? More importantly, what makes this any different to the topic at hand? It's not like these things suddenly disappear in MD.

EDIT: Actually, I stand corrected, some of them do. I maintain that among the things missing aren't terribly important, though.

Is it chore? Maybe, but many love the fact that you can find certain pokemon to train your stats up a certain way. People take advantage of this to exploit the Pokemon or build up their team the way they want. I highly doubt it was added for the sake of it, and no one really takes it as a "barrier". You gain these bonus stats without doing specific training, you just want get the exact stats in the places you want. Yes, people actually like EVs because it adds a huge level of complexity to tournaments and championships. Do I train this Pokemon to MAX Atk and counter with Low Def? Do I want to balance out this Pokemon? Should I make this Pokemon a speed based with attacks that kill quickly? Or should I just have high defense so I can last long in battle? Now, how do I use items to make my pokemon better? Do I use this berry to recover HP in battle or should I just stick with the water amulet for bonus ATK pts? Triple battle? Should I use surf to hit all 3 and hurt my own team mates? Is it worth the risk? Should I make all my Pokemon go for the flying Pokemon? Or will the Pokemon fly out of the way before I have time to do so?

Ask yourself how many of these arguments are still interchangable before claiming technical superiority of one over the other. To the best of my knowledge few if any of these things actually vanished between MD and the main series. But for the sake of argument let's address this "barrier" thing.

So you're saying a part of metagame is deciding how you want your stats to round up. Okay I get that. You know how else I could get a PKMN with the stats I want? I could... you know, find a PKMN that already has the stats I want, grinding not withstanding. Rather than encourage the process of catching as many PKMN as possible - the original point of the game, for those who can remember back that far - by simple virtue of the diverse pool of stat and move combinations between the retarded amount of Pokes to choose from, you have to account for perks that influence stats first and either keep wasting time and Pokeballs until you get one with the exact perks you want, or breed them from scratch to get elements that can only be obtained from there (something I'm sure I need not remind starts them at level 5).

This is a hurdle, in that it's something the existing mechanics to the game prior already achieved on its own.

This is a barrier, in that it contradicts the theme of catching as many PKMN as possible when it already served as its own method of "metagame hunting", if I may coin a phrase briefely. And was more streamlined to boot.

All this really does is ensure it just takes more time until you get a team of PKMN that are metagame capable. Time, in a game where "metagame capable" already starts somewhere around the leauge of level 100. What this amounts to is panning, little more. Perks can be kinda neat sometimes though, I'll give you that one.

It just isn't me that doesn't like the game

So you're saying that other people who don't like rougelikes don't like a rougelike? Come on, man. Target audiences.

What if Mystery Dungeon 3D took a completely different route?

You're a Sonic fan, so you should know this better than any of us - it creates divides. Huge, gaping divides in the fandom that takes countless efforts to refill. You imply one thing, give another, and end up satisfying neither side particularly well. It's like taking Command & Conquer and turning it into a board game, if you'll pardon me using another of these silly metaphors.

You know what I want? An adventure game. A PKMN roamer of scope comparable to Zelda with all the moves and type-advantage gameplay of the host series. Would I dare suggest making one at the expense of fans of an existing sub-series? Fuck no. Just make a new one. Why you seem to want things contradictary to rougelike basics at the expense of people who play Mystery Dungeon for a rougelike is puzzling, to say the least.

The animation sucks compared to the main series.

Oh really? Compared to two cardboard cutouts throwing special effects at each other? Black and White only just introduced a fucking idle animation as standard, for crying out loud. You sure you're not fanboying over this, just a tad.

If innovating the series to reach a broader audience is "butchering" the series, then OK. Hopefully the 3D version makes the AI turn into something that doesn't make me cry?

Protip: gummis. Edited September 16, 2012 by The Cheese

[Autosaver]

...and he says this in spite of addressing an argument about exactly that in the very next quote. Outstanding. Let's just skip the victim complex and get straight to that, then:

I reply on a paragraph by paragraph basis. If you say something later, it may be too late.

And heeeeeere come the strawmen. Closest I ever came to claiming that was discerning "complexity" that is ultimately pointless to the metagame when there already existed mechanics in the core that accomplished virtually the same purpose. I'll get to that in just a bit when actual counterpoints show up.

What? Sure the overall mechanics existed, but there are endless possibilties you can achieve when you look online or research yourself on how to take advantage of these hidden modifiers most people don't know about. I highly doubt more than 10% of the Pokemon population actually know what EVs are. These stats aren't pointless, and they are extremely important in tournaments and battling. Which is you know, a major point of the Pokemon series. Please don't try to tell me that they don't matter, because I guarantee you would you get your butt whooped instantly by someone who did take advantage of the hidden mechanics.

...where on earth did you get that from? How exactly did you derive that from "there is lots and lots of dull, monotonous, unrewarding grinding"?

You say the EVs/IVs are pointless and they're unrewarding, and that they don't add to the game's mechanics. This is completely false on every level and many people would disagree with you. How is it unrewarding when you took your own time to make the ultimate Pokemon team? It is definitely rewarding and achieving wins battle after battle feels so good and you earned it. I guess you could say that it is stupid, but it opens an entire new realm to competitive players. No, this is not a bad thing.

So you're saying Pokemon, an RPG, has... stats. Amazing. What's new? More importantly, what makes this any different to the topic at hand? It's not like these things suddenly disappear in MD.

EVs, IVs, and natures DEFINITELY disappear in MD. Again, you're completely taking out the fact that the IVs/EVs/Natures radically change the game up. Oh, I also forgot about Special/Physicals which I don't think exist in Mystery Dungeon. According to Bulbapedia,Natures and IVs/EVs were replaced with boring "base stats". It is understandable in Mystery Dungeon because you can't attack specific Pokemon like in the main games, but this still doesn't mean that the complex stat system should be excused.

So you're saying a part of metagame is deciding how you want your stats to round up. Okay I get that. You know how else I could get a PKMN with the stats I want? I could... you know, find a PKMN that already has the stats I want, grinding not withstanding.

It is the metagame for players who want a more complex taste of Pokemon. You can go with catching your Pokemon, or training them on certain monsters to increase your stats. What seems more rewarding? "Oh! I caught a level 70 in the wild!" or "I trained my Mudkip all the way from Level 5 to Level 100 using EV stats to maximize my potential!". As you said, this can be quite rewarding in the long run.

Um, you do realize that Pokemon is far more than trying to catch every one? Seriously, once we reached over 600 Pokemon it just seemed more like a "AH HELL NO" with a bigger focus on the battle system. There is a reason why Nintendo routinely hosts events and put a lot of effort into the wifi battle system. There is also the battle frontier and battle subway which further increase the importance of battling.

"To catch them is my real test.. TO TRAIN THEM IS MY CAUSE"

Geez, a lot of emphasis on training them. Right? Yeah, it is the TV show but it still is relevant. Not saying catching them all isn't a goal, but it isn't the only goal.

So you're saying that other people who don't like rougelikes don't like a rougelike? Come on, man. Target audiences.

There is a reason why people don't like rougelike games, and people that do often complain that Mystery Dungeon is very casual. You often hear "You should play Shiren the Wanderer instead" due to the fact that it does the formula better? I guess it has to do with the difficulty.

You're a Sonic fan, so you should know this better than any of us - it creates divides. Huge, gaping divides in the fandom that takes countless efforts to refill. You imply one thing, give another, and end up satisfying neither side particularly well.

You know what else Sonic has done with changing the formula? Changing it for the worse. Mystery Dungeon is often regarded as an average game and changing it would only be for the better. I mean, it doesn't even have to change drastically. Why are the areas so barren and ugly? Can't something be done to make them look more appealing?

Would I dare suggest making one at the expense of fans of an existing sub-series? Fuck no. Just make a new one. Why you seem to want things contradictary to rougelike basics at the expense of people who play Mystery Dungeon for a rougelike is puzzling, to say the least.

Wait a minute! Most people in this thread have talked about the story, and NOT the gameplay. Even look above, just look at the love toward the well crafted atmosphere the game brought. I highly doubt many would miss the rougelike gameplay and I'm sure if a superior, more fun genre was put in place, no one would care. I bet the game would be in even MORE hands due to the huge quality jump and genre take. The fact that the next game would be completely different would bring in more people that disregarded the older ones waiting for something new. The "Rougelike" formula is far from perfect, so again, it probably wouldn't be missed. Sonic on the other hand had a perfect formula which was replaced with a crappy formula.

Oh really? Compared to two cardboard cutouts throwing special effects at each other? Black and White only just introduced a fucking idle animation as standard, for crying out loud. You sure you're not fanboying over this, just a tad.

Actually, many of the Pokemon attacks look nice. While I agree some look lame, but there are quite a few of awesomely animated ones. At least, they look better than the animations in Mystery Dungeon. And so what if it introduced an idle animation? At least the sprites look decent. :/

Protip: gummis.

You think feeding my Pokemon the eqivalent of a Big Mac will fix some buggy game mechanics? Ok.

Edit: Holy Shit, I think this is the first time I've debated for pages. This was actually really fun and awesome arguing points with you. I can't guarantee I'll continue tomorrow, as I got a ton of homework to do. But feel free to respond, get that last point out. :3

<3

Edited September 16, 2012 by Autosaver

[Blacklightning]

What? Sure the overall mechanics existed, but there are endless possibilties you can achieve when you look online or research yourself on how to take advantage of these hidden modifiers most people don't know about. I highly doubt more than 10% of the Pokemon population actually know what EVs are. These stats aren't pointless, and they are extremely important in tournaments and battling. Which is you know, a major point of the Pokemon series. Please don't try to tell me that they don't matter, because I guarantee you would you get your butt whooped instantly by someone who did take advantage of the hidden mechanics.

Once again with the strawmen. Did you really think that by "complexity" I meant a bunch of stats that virtually every RPG has?

You say the EVs/IVs are pointless and they're unrewarding, and that they don't add to the game's mechanics. This is completely false on every level and many people would disagree with you. How is it unrewarding when you took your own time to make the ultimate Pokemon team? It is definitely rewarding and achieving wins battle after battle feels so good and you earned it. I guess you could say that it is stupid, but it opens an entire new realm to competitive players. No, this is not a bad thing.

It is when it's done in such a way that it pans the entire process out for as long as humanly possible. But of course that's still not referring to the stats themselves so much as the ludicrously obtuse means of getting the ones you're aiming for, which can - and probably should - simply amount to just looking for a Pokemon with your favourite kinds of stat and working from there.

EVs, IVs, and natures DEFINITELY disappear in MD.

I guess my edit didn't get in fast enough. Oh well. For what it's worth they're mostly stats that aren't important to the game anyway but at least there's finally some context to this point of comparison.

It is the metagame for players who want a more complex taste of Pokemon. You can go with catching your Pokemon, or training them on certain monsters to increase your stats. What seems more rewarding? "Oh! I caught a level 70 in the wild!" or "I trained my Mudkip all the way from Level 5 to Level 100 using EV stats to maximize my potential!". As you said, this can be quite rewarding in the long run.

What? No I didn't. Your capacity to completely fabricate arguments I never hinted at continues to astound me. As for this argument, I should probably point out that trying to speak for everyone, including people who've gotten that far and felt like they'd wasted hundreds of hours of their life on and off, under some kind of source-less blanket term is most unwise. Going by that strain of discussion I could just as easily claim that anyone who plays the game explicitly for the metagame value just hacks the game for lvl100s and bonus traits and goes straight online with them. Am I right? Who knows?

Um, you do realize that Pokemon is far more than trying to catch every one?

It's the very root of the concept that Pokemon is built on. I don't expect it to be the absolute focus of the game but you damn well better bet it should be a key focal point, or at the very, very least something the other mechanics of the game can actually benefit from.

"To catch them is my real test.. TO TRAIN THEM IS MY CAUSE"

Oh come on, if you're going to be that pedantic I might as well point out the ratio of "catching" to "training" is about 5 to 1, and the former gets the penultimate emphasis at the end. This is kind of grasping at straws isn't it?

There is a reason why people don't like rougelike games

Should I find it funny that you keep saying this and completely fail to attach a supporting argument every single time?

You know what else Sonic has done with changing the formula? Changing it for the worse.

That's kind of a byproduct of completely changing a franchise from its repertoire, so uh... thanks for making my argument for me?

Mystery Dungeon is often regarded as an average game and changing it would only be for the better. I mean, it doesn't even have to change drastically. Why are the areas so barren and ugly? Can't something be done to make them look more appealing?

Sure they can. There's just no need to go into a Genre Roulette to do that. Well okay, it's not really a roulette insofar as there's still one genre, but you get the idea.

Wait a minute! Most people in this thread have talked about the story, and NOT the gameplay. Even look above, just look at the love toward the well crafted atmosphere the game brought. I highly doubt many would miss the rougelike gameplay and I'm sure if a superior, more fun genre was put in place, no one would care.

Listen to you. You're comparing genres as if they actually have objective advantages over each other. That's fucking absurd, shameful, elitist bullshit of the highest calibre. You don't label entire genres as shit because your opinion tells you to, you just accept that they're not for you and move on. This is petty, 6th grade stupidity that I thought we had all gotten over by now.

...uh, where was I? Oh right, the story. Well, no shit the story's going to get the most attention! I think you'll want to note that you're actually the only one here who's gone out of their way to claim the game's terribly bad otherwise. What you're doing here is taking an opportunity to put words into other people's mouths simply on account that there weren't words there on the subject yet, which is... y'know, yet another fallacy on your part. If anyone would like to prove me wrong though, feel free to speak up. Don't worry, I won't bite.

After I finished writing this bit and went back to check, it turned out that you're

Edit: Holy Shit, I think this is the first time I've debated for pages. This was actually really fun and awesome arguing points with you. I can't guarantee I'll continue tomorrow, as I got a ton of homework to do. But feel free to respond, get that last point out. :3

Normally I'd feel a bit guilty about kicking a guy while they're down, but since you insist... =P

We should probably agree to disagree at this point, as I think we just clogged this thread with enough tl;dr to form a hardback novel and give someone a serious spinal injury by dropping it on them.

[Thigolf]

Things I didn't like about the Dungeon series

- The game moves too slow at normal speed, and at fast speed - your AI becomes retarded and gets "stuck"

- When Pokemon AI becomes retarded in a battle, you get stuck and move at a slow pace. Yay!

- When you DO want to strategize with attacks, it is very hard to move your party members to the front of the line, and when they do get to the front, you can't be certain they will use X move.

I never had the problem with a stuck AI, my partner always followed me (unless he got confused, but then I followed him around so he couldn't get too far away, so everything was fine. Okay, when I picked a water pokemon as a partner and he was walking over to water and I couldn't follow him, yeah, that sucked, but it happened to me like twice, so I think it's tolerable.

Also, you know you can tell your partner which move to use, right?

Edited September 16, 2012 by Thigolf

[Autosaver]

Actually, one last thing before we close up the discussion.

I'm not so sure that I ever said the game was bad, I did say it was "average". Which is far from the realm of bad. I'll PM you some tidbits though since I think you missed a couple of points.

And yes, I'm going to agree to disagree in this thread. But to be fair, we actually DID bring life to it due to the fact barely anything was revealed about the game. This thread could have flown to floor 3 (HA HA...*slammed) if we didn't bother posting.

Edit: Well, I pm'd my response to "TheCheese" but he left the conversation. I'm not sure why he did, because I think it would have been nice if you at least said that you read what I wrote but you didn't feel like arguing anymore and what was done was done (aka move on). So I'm posting it here because spending time to write something up and have it completely ignored feels weird.

Once again with the strawmen. Did you really think that by "complexity" I meant a bunch of stats that virtually every RPG has?

EVs and IVs/Natures are not in any other RPG from what I know. Most use the system of using items and leveling normally to do a pre-determined stat increase.

It is when it's done in such a way that it pans the entire process out for as long as humanly possible. But of course that's still not referring to the stats themselves so much as the ludicrously obtuse means of getting the ones you're aiming for, which can - and probably should - simply amount to just looking for a Pokemon with your favourite kinds of stat and working from there.

The problem here is that you can't really find a Pokemon with your favorite kind of stats. It just isn't going to work since it'll be nearly impossible to get the exact stats matched up. If you start from the beginning, you can get your exact match up fairly easy. While people do just use Pokemon they catch, it may not give them the best edge in battle. Also, EV training really doesn't take that long. There are several items you can buy that can double the rate at which you gain EVs. You can also equip EXP Shares which carry over EVs. Sure it could take a day, but once you're set you're done. You now have a team that can be used to play hundreds and hundreds of hours.

The thing with EVs is that these changes aren't small. It is very important to use them as they have a HUGE factor in whether you're going to win or not.

I guess my edit didn't get in fast enough. Oh well. For what it's worth they're mostly stats that aren't important to the game anyway but at least there's finally some context to this point of comparison.

Sites like Serebii and Bulbapedia both put EVs under "VERY IMPORTANT" on the game mechanics scale. The fact that your team can win or lose just based on the matter of what the Nature your pokemon is based on or the way you trained your Pokemon is huge.

What? No I didn't. Your capacity to completely fabricate arguments I never hinted at continues to astound me. As for this argument, I should probably point out that trying to speak for everyone, including people who've gotten that far and felt like they'd wasted hundreds of hours of their life on and off, under some kind of source-less blanket term is most unwise. Going by that strain of discussion I could just as easily claim that anyone who plays the game explicitly for the metagame value just hacks the game for lvl100s and bonus traits and goes straight online with them. Am I right? Who knows?

You said perks could be nice, which is why I replaced "Nice" with rewarding. It seems like you agreed that getting all these values to the best spots is nice. If I ever "fabricate" arguments, it is either I'm not getting your point or that I'm confused.

You didn't waste your time by playing Pokemon the way most people play it. You still can catch Pokemon, and you can still battle trainers. The problem arises is that if you ever stepped into a tournament, you would get your butt whooped in a matter of a seconds. There is a lot of strategy involved with getting EVs. No, this isn't the only metagame but it is a big part of it. People don't hack for level 100s since that usually gets you banned, but people DO try to get those bonus traits and go straight online with them. It opens a whole new league when it is less "Strategy through moves!" and more "Strategy through moves, EVs, Natures, IVs, etc!". Was that huge increase in DEF and decrease in Speed going to pay off in battle? What if you now singled beat every trainer out there by being an unstoppable force? This is something that many people are proud of.

It's the very root of the concept that Pokemon is built on. I don't expect it to be the absolute focus of the game but you damn well better bet it should be a key focal point, or at the very, very least something the other mechanics of the game can actually benefit from.

Funny, because many of the Pokemon games dropped the "CATCH'EM ALL" phrase from their boxes. Sure catching plays a role, but not all trainers go for that. Pokemon is a game where you can do anything you want. Yes, that means you can solely battle instead of catching. I honestly doubt many people have caught every Pokemon. Why do Pokemon games have you go through tough trainers? Why do the game try to make you get into the Hall of Fame? Because they matter, and the mechanics are going to be based on battling. Sure catching is the overall goal, but battling is what makes the game. Not everything has to be focused on catching.

Oh come on, if you're going to be that pedantic I might as well point out the ratio of "catching" to "training" is about 5 to 1, and the former gets the penultimate emphasis at the end. This is kind of grasping at straws isn't it?

BTW I did that for some chuckles, Ha ha! Well, the overall point was really - Ash hasn't even tried catching them all. He only goes toward battling and becoming a master. You want to become a Pokemon Master, right?

Should I find it funny that you keep saying this and completely fail to attach a supporting argument every single time?

Here is when I call you out.

I HAVE brought up supporting arguments, and many reviewers bring up these SAME EXACT problems.

The problem with rougelike games is that they all boil down to the same thing every single time. The randomzied dungeons doesn't mean good dungeons, and many of your Pokemon can get stuck to the intense linearity these games make. The AI seems to be completely retarded (Might be specific to MD?) and a majority of the items don't do anything useful (yay!). Also, Mystery Dungeon is "too easy" for a Rougelike game which makes the intense freight (other users brought it up in other games!) gone. Roguelike games use an archaic system that many modern gamers would be completely off'd by. I'm not saying that everyone hates it, but it becomes painful to people that play "Upgraded" genres that started off from the rougelike genre. I know these genres become completely different, but they at least innovative and become enjoyable.

Sure they can. There's just no need to go into a Genre Roulette to do that. Well okay, it's not really a roulette insofar as there's still one genre, but you get the idea.

Actually, that was my point. If they're NOT going to change the genre, at least try to maximize what you have?

Listen to you. You're comparing genres as if they actually have objective advantages over each other. That's fucking absurd, shameful, elitist bullshit of the highest calibre. You don't label entire genres as shit because your opinion tells you to, you just accept that they're not for you and move on. This is petty, 6th grade stupidity that I thought we had all gotten over by now.

Games like TorchLight no longer struggle with problems such as "this dungeon is boring!" and "this dungeon is really ugly!", I haven't really seen a nice looking rougelike game and I haven't seen a rougelike game that completely changed the system. No, rougelike games aren't "shit", and I never said they were. They're average, and something that I wouldn't want to play over and over compared to other genres. Do you honestly think I'm the only one that finds these problems? Because they're brought up every, single, time, during a review. There is a reason why Shiren The Wanderer didn't score incredibly high either. Rougelike games have existed for over 20 years, and they weren't highly praised back then either. The replayability also becomes stiff when you realize that you're just doing the exact same thing over again, and I even ended up just selling Rescue Team Blue when my brother accidentally deleted my save. Speaking of saves, these types of games usually have poor save systems. I have to go and I can't save? ...!!!!

What you're doing here is taking an opportunity to put words into other people's mouths simply on account that there weren't words there on the subject yet, which is... y'know, yet another fallacy on your part.

I'm not putting words in other people's mouths, and I know that people have disagreed with me. I just find it surprising that for the 4th game, people still think these games are a blast. It is far from awesome and it still is average in my book. Don't be surprised when the game is ridiculed when it is released with the same exact reasonings used in the past 10 years. They're not going to go away until they become changed.

I also find it stupid that ChunSoft is releasing two versions like the main series games. There is little point here, since even the story is essentially the same. It wasn't smart in the originals either.

TL;DR - Some parts of my responses were a joke, which were taken literally. Some part that TheCheese brought up give me the indication he has no idea what he is talking about. Also, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon was directed toward Pokemon fans, not just "Rogue-like" genre fans. It is incredibly stupid reasoning to compare it to not liking racers so I had to call him out on that. I also had to point out TheCheese doesn't give EVs enough credit and bringing up irrelevant points. Finally, I brought up several issues with the genre yet TheCheese keeps writing I haven't brought up a single one. Is he not reading?

Really, I didn't have to post this here if you simply said "I read it but I don't care for arguing" but I'd rather get my points out then you get YOURS and completely disregard mine. Do you not have an audience which is why you didn't care to respond? I also find your arguing skills quite low on the charts with the amount of insults you've thrown out there. I even found some of your older arguments and my god, this isn't the first time you've done this.

Funny enough, the argument managed to sway away from roguelike game complaining to arguing about Pokemon. X is bad does not mean Y is NOT bad.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Autosaver

[Cola]

Me have question?

Anyway, aren't caves SUPPOSED to look ugly and barren? I mean, they're... well, rocks. The majority of the game takes place in caves, right? I just don't see a problem with that. And the areas outside don't seem ugly or barren, either. I mean, it's basically a bustling town and caves.

Just throwing it out there.

[Autosaver]

Anyway, aren't caves SUPPOSED to look ugly and barren? I mean, they're... well, rocks. The majority of the game takes place in caves, right? I just don't see a problem with that. And the areas outside don't seem ugly or barren, either. I mean, it's basically a bustling town and caves.

That is an awful excuse for a game to look ugly. Caves have been in games before and they have consisted more of the same ugly grey palette.

Yes, the outside areas do look nice. But you just said the majority takes place inside, so... yeah. I guess this is another limitation of the whole rougelike genre due to the fact that the areas are limited, but I'm sure they could make them look better. Shinra 3D had some pretty good looking (and unique!) environments. Why not use your imagination to step outside the boundry? It is Pokemon, it doesn't have to look realistic. How about floating mist, sparkling crystals, magma flowing, steam, floating islands, more outside environments, colorized caves, futuristic dungeons, power grid themed, flowers, tropical, underwater, luxury castle, night themed, snow, etc.

These are just ideas. I like how Pokemon Mystery Dungeon 3D actually tried something new. Instead of going with the excuse "its a cave!", they actually did something. Now, what if they went even further? The possibilities are endless when it comes to your imagination.

[Cola]

That is an awful excuse for a game to look ugly. Caves have been in games before and they have consisted more of the same ugly grey palette.

Yes, the outside areas do look nice. But you just said the majority takes place inside, so... yeah. I guess this is another limitation of the whole rougelike genre due to the fact that the areas are limited, but I'm sure they could make them look better. Shinra 3D had some pretty good looking (and unique!) environments. Why not use your imagination to step outside the boundry? It is Pokemon, it doesn't have to look realistic. How about floating mist, sparkling crystals, magma flowing, steam, floating islands, more outside environments, colorized caves, futuristic dungeons, power grid themed, flowers, tropical, underwater, luxury castle, night themed, snow, etc.

These are just ideas. I like how Pokemon Mystery Dungeon 3D actually tried something new. Instead of going with the excuse "its a cave!", they actually did something. Now, what if they went even further? The possibilities are endless when it comes to your imagination.

I'm not saying it's an excuse, and I'd love for them to try new things. Hell - they probably are, but we don't know it yet.I'm just saying that caves are pretty ugly and barren by default, so...

[Blacklightning]

It's a stylistic thing. Skyrim style caves look good in their own right, don't get me wrong, but in a tile-based game like this it'd just come off as a lot of unnecessary visual noise. The best you could really do about it is make an occasional stalagmite to take up a floor tile or - seeing as this is a 3D title - to add onto the outside of the dungeon walls. Of course, if I were to make up a half-assed excuse of my own I'd simply point to the main gimmick of the dungeons themselves - they transform in layout every individual time the player enters one. Doesn't leave a whole lot of time for natural rock formations to form, hmm? =P

Besides, the soundtrack alone already made the atmosphere really, really thick, which is something I'd consider quite a massive feat for a series that previously to this looked like a 15-year-old JRPG.

[Autosaver]

TheCheese, you didn't respond to my pm.

Oh, random formations doesn't mean random designs can't be done. Many games often have "set pieces" that are just shuffled around. This is even true in the forest level of 3D, there are several nice visible things. It can be done.

Besides, the soundtrack alone already made the atmosphere really, really thick, which is something I'd consider quite a massive feat for a series that previously to this looked like a 15-year-old JRPG.

Weren't a ton of soundtracks on the other side of quality? O.o

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Well, we could argue game mechanics till the cows come home, but if it's alright with both parties, I'd like to propose a question to the lot of you.

Who was your favorite character from Red/Blue Rescue and Time/Darkness?

Edited September 17, 2012 by Soma

[Cola]

It was me

I am best character

[Blacklightning]

Serious answer? Wigglytuff. Motherfuckin' Wigglytuff.

Can you imagine a guy who's naive to the point of ridiculousness and distracted to the point of falling asleep with his eyes open, yet not only runs the whole guild and somehow does a good job of it, but can even come off as a closet badass in the process? Personally, character analysis has never really been one of my strongest points, but it doesn't take a lot to find something particularly endearing about his enthusiasm, corny and overdone though it may be.

I also maintain that the Perfect Apple scene is one of the funniest in the whole series, just by virtue of how over the top Wiggly's spontaneous tantrum gets before Team Skull walks in. Seriously, it looked as though the room was literally going to fuckin' blow up if it waited any longer.

[Blue Wisp]

Well, we could argue game mechanics till the cows come home, but if it's alright with both parties, I'd like to propose a question to the lot of you.

Who was your favorite character from Red/Blue Rescue and Time/Darkness?

Playable or not?

There's probably someone else that is my favourite-est. But I didn't really play any of the Mystery Dungeon games yet so my only source of information is the stuff that a certain someone (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) told me.

Don't get me wrong, Palkia is my personal favourite from the Creation Trio. But the idea of Dialga losing control of time and going nuts just sounds awesome for me. And I dig the orange details that he got.

From Blue and Red Rescue Team, I'd say Psyduck, Cubone and (non-playable?) Gardevoir and Butterfree are my favourite. Hm... Maybe there's more but I can't think of anyone else.

EDIT:

<3

Edited September 17, 2012 by Blue Baron Wisp

[Sonic the Hedgehog in 3D]

Oh man, the trailer looks great and I can't wait to get my hands on this.

Also I really can't decide on my favourite character, all of them are well written and have great personalities, imo.

Should finish playing Red and Sky and Replaying Blue and Time

so my only source of information is the stuff that a certain someone (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) told me.

What? No I don't know who I am >:U

owait

Edited September 17, 2012 by Rawrdom

[Blue Wisp]

What? No I don't know who I am >:U

owait

You turned into a depressed black hedgehog with red details? I didn't get that memo. D:

[Autosaver]

I added more onto my post back a page, because when I did PM to counter some points I never got a reply (Come on TheCheese, didn't you find it dickish to just "leave" the conversation without just saying that you didn't want to bother anymore? Seriously...? Though, I applaud you that you didn't leave an insult instead Ha ha!)

And to give this post some spice and sound less like whining, here are some screens!

They actually look quite nice. There are a ton more below.

http://www.4gamer.ne...74/20120915004/

Edited September 17, 2012 by Autosaver

[Sonic the Hedgehog in 3D]

oh my

it's beautiful ;3;

What's up with the toilet roll and eggs in the article though? :U

You turned into a depressed black hedgehog with red details? I didn't get that memo. D:

THIS IS WHO I AM

[#EndyGate]

I'm loving how the dungeons here have a much more natural layouts than those of the previous games, so instead of having a bunch of block rooms filling each floor, they seem to have less of a geometric influence in the shape of each room

oh my

it's beautiful ;3;

What's up with the toilet roll and eggs in the article though? :U

Things you can take pictures of to activate the AR features

Edited September 17, 2012 by The Marvelous Cero

[Blue Wisp]

Why would Pokémon have Toilet Rolls. I DON'T GET THAT LOGIC.

But shit this looks wonderful.

EDIT:

THIS IS WHO I AM

A depressed black hedgehog-dinosaur hybrid? OKAY SURE.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Blue Baron Wisp

[Cola]

Screens look nice, this is making up for the lack of Pokemon you can become.