Final Fantasy XIII Lightning Saga

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

The requiem of the Goddess was just a joke. Seriously. You get NOTHING for doing it. And it makes no sense. You level up by dying?! Seriously, WTF square?

Well, that's the only way we can beat Caius. It will be practically impossible to beat him if we don't level up somehow. But yeah, the DLC was disappointing it was just 2 (or 3?) boss battles against Caius.

[KHCast]

Well, that's the only way we can beat Caius. It will be practically impossible to beat him if we don't level up somehow. But yeah, the DLC was disappointing it was just 2 (or 3?) boss battles against Caius.

Well they could have made it so you play as Lightning outside of 3 boss battles. Fight monsters to level up. or set her up at a set level, where you have a chance to fight Caius. Anything would have been better than having to level up by Dying.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Anything would have been better than having to level up by Dying.

I don't own this DLC and I'll have to either be heavilly sedated before I do own it or be given it for free and held at gunpoint to play it.

But what do you mean by level up by dying? That in order to level up you have to lose a battle?

[KHCast]

I don't own this DLC and I'll have to either be heavilly sedated before I do own it or be given it for free and held at gunpoint to play it.

But what do you mean by level up by dying? That in order to level up you have to lose a battle?

Yep. That is exactly how you get stronger. You fight Caius the first time, and you'll die. Then you'll level up. You have to get to like level 6 if you want to stand a chance against him.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

You made the assumption that because one is a member of a said fandom... they must like all the games... otherwise why generalise the entire website because it's a FF13 website as you said.

But that is a FFXIII fansite. If that was a general FF site like SSMB being a general Sonic site, then yes I understand. But you shouldn't be hanging around discussing a game series that you hate so much. If there is a Sonic 4 forum based around Sonic 4 (and you strongly dislike Sonic 4) would you join it?

Come up with a decent counter argument to the complaints then we'll talk about if theres any point in reasoning. Actually... I'll just give you the one for now number 8 on my last list of complaints about the game... that being Cocoon's collapse didn't really seem to do anything.

That I won't answer. Why? Because the story isn't the reason why I like the game. Unless you love to read, read, read there is no way you can fully understand what's going on. And I admit, the story from both games are bad. Again, the story isn't why I like the game.

Well they could have made it so you play as Lightning outside of 3 boss battles. Fight monsters to level up. or set her up at a set level, where you have a chance to fight Caius. Anything would have been better than having to level up by Dying.

Yeah, that's what they should have done actually. That would give us more freedom. I'll actually love the DLC more if I was able to finally control Lightning in the XIII-2 world instead of Noel or Serah. What a shame.

[Badnik Mechanic]

That sounds absolutely stupid.

A few pages back I commented on how the bosses gave you no reward for victory, so theres no sense of encouragement to continue. In the DLC you are rewarded by failing? Erm... Could I just not keep getting killed at the first enemy then be supremely powered for the whole game?

That I won't answer. Why? Because the story isn't the reason why I like the game. Unless you love to read, read, read there is no way you can fully understand what's going on. And I admit, the story from both games are bad. Again, the story isn't why I like the game

The assumption here...? I don't love to read... charming.

I asked you if it made any sense that the falling of cocoon does no damage even though the whole game up until that point says it's going to destroy mankind makes any sense... not to guess my reading habits.

[Chooch]

Regardless of my issues with the Final Fantasy XIII games, I'll admit I still really like Sazh.

He's just a genuinely likeable character in my eyes. Gotta love Chocofro. Simply the best.

[T-Min]

That I won't answer. Why? Because the story isn't the reason why I like the game. Unless you love to read, read, read there is no way you can fully understand what's going on. And I admit, the story from both games are bad. Again, the story isn't why I like the game.

what what what what what what what WHAT.

The storyline is pretty much half the game. Heck, that basically applies to almost any JRPG. Actually, the original XIII was basically built entirely around the storyline, to the point that (battle system aside) there's pretty much nothing else to it. I mean, is the battle system really the only reason why you love these games so much? I'm even a fan of the original XIII myself and I don't understand why you like it so much, let alone XIII-2.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

The assumption here...? I don't love to read... charming.

I asked you if it made any sense that the falling of cocoon does no damage even though the whole game up until that point says it's going to destroy mankind makes any sense... not to guess my reading habits.

I am not guessing your reading habits. I'm just saying to fully understand the whole story, you have to read instead of just watching the cutscenes. While I did read some of the encyclopedia, I didn't read it all so I don't fully understand what's going on.

But to be clear, no, I don't think it makes sense. But this is a Final Fantasy game after all. Real humans don't have swinging swords with magic.

[Badnik Mechanic]

But to be clear, no, I don't think it makes sense. But this is a Final Fantasy game after all. Real humans don't have swinging swords with magic.

Are you deliberately missing the point?

The game says all the way through it, and this is even in the primers... Cocoon will fall and destroy mankind...

Then at the end of the game... cocoon falls and doesn't do any damage to the one city thats near it.

It has nothing to do with real life and the fantasy of the game... because in the fantasy of the game, we are constantly told, and even see/play through the scenes of devastation which the falling of cocoon causes... then when it does fall, it doesn't do a thing. It has nothing to do with real life, because these events were said and shown to have happened in the game. But nothing happens.

Game: Cocoon is going to fall and destroy everything! Nothing will grow in the soil, the rivers and seas will be dry.

Player: That sounds terrible.

Game: Welcome to 700AF, cocoon has fallen, the seas are dry, the cities are destroyed, there is nothing... nothing... nothing but death.

Player: This is terrible! The sky is all red and dark and theres images of people dying all around me!

Game: Behold! Cocoon is falling! It's the end of all life it's... .. ...

Player: ...kicked up a bit of dust and thats it... even though you've shown the entire world more or less destroyed?

[pppp]

But to be clear, no, I don't think it makes sense. But this is a Final Fantasy game after all. Real humans don't have swinging swords with magic.

Did you just say that? Let me tell you how fantasy storytelling works: You create a world with its own logic and rules. It can be anything from flying mages to multiple realities. However you have to make the logic and rules be consistent. Cocoon falls and doesn't kill anyone, therefore the game just contradicted the logic of its own world. Let's look at Miyazaki's movies. He creates a fantastical world unlike our own but it's easy to believe in this world because the rules he sets are consistent. He never contradicts major plot points. It's like if i made a story where animals can talk but then we find an animal that for some unexplained reason can't talk.

Basically you can create a fantasy story with all the unrealistic stuff you want. You just need to create a certain logic and rules about how it all works, explain it to the audience clearly and stay consistent with it. If you do that your fantasy story becomes believable.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Are you deliberately missing the point?

The game says all the way through it, and this is even in the primers... Cocoon will fall and destroy mankind...

Then at the end of the game... cocoon falls and doesn't do any damage to the one city thats near it.

It has nothing to do with real life and the fantasy of the game... because in the fantasy of the game, we are constantly told, and even see/play through the scenes of devastation which the falling of cocoon causes... then when it does fall, it doesn't do a thing. It has nothing to do with real life, because these events were said and shown to have happened in the game. But nothing happens.

Game: Cocoon is going to fall and destroy everything! Nothing will grow in the soil, the rivers and seas will be dry.

Player: That sounds terrible.

Game: Welcome to 700AF, cocoon has fallen, the seas are dry, the cities are destroyed, there is nothing... nothing... nothing but death.

Player: This is terrible! The sky is all red and dark and theres images of people dying all around me!

Game: Behold! Cocoon is falling! It's the end of all life it's... .. ...

Player: ...kicked up a bit of dust and thats it... even though you've shown the entire world more or less destroyed?

I guess you have been missing the key parts.

First of all, I can't even remember what "town" is very close to Cocoon that Cocoon can actually destroy. I don't even think there is a town near it. Cocoon just floats above Gran Pulse.

Cocoon was falling and the people in it will die because of the fall. That's when Hope had an idea to create a new Cocoon (Bhunivelze) that will save mankind as people can move there once Cocoon is about to fall. So yeah, once Cocoon fell, Bhunivelze was risen with everyone in there. Mankind saved.

[Badnik Mechanic]

I guess you have been missing the key parts.

Oh no I'm pretty sure I'm right on the money... but here... this would be the ending of the game in video format... I've marked the most interesting bits for you to enjoy... I like the parts where you can see just how close the city is to cocoon yet it doesn't suffer any damage at all because of the collapse.

promise you I'm not making this up! Look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyN4_KcnGX0

At 9:40 you see where arcadia is in relation to Hopes arc and in turn cocoon. Then cocoon starts to fall...

The first impact with the ground is at 10:34. Then at 10:37 the shockwave hits hopes arc and in turn arcadia, we actually see this in the video.

Then as arc rises, theres an almost 360 view of it and the landscape... theres no sign of the dustcloud... so it's not going to reach arcadia.

Then assuming this is real time which I'm not sure it is as theres an obvious cut as the arc is pulling away from it's docking station, we see the Academy building... still standing at 11:33... this is a whole 60 seconds after initial impact.

Then at 11:48 we see the entire city of arcadia... completely untouched by any debree or even any signs of damage, despite the fact at 10:37 it got hit by the shockwave from cocoon's impact.

Then from 11:48 all the way to 16:59 we can constantly get looks at arcadia and the environment around it... which looks perfectly fine.

Then at 17:00 we actually see the first sign of damage caused to the land and then arcadia (which ironically is still looking pretty good up until the chaos hits it) which is not caused by cocoon... it's caused by the escaping chaos who were unleashed because of all the people who died that were safelty on Hopes arc... ... .. .. . wait... plothole...

So for nearly 6min... arcadia is perfectly fine... yet this was supposed to be the end of mankind!? But because everyone was safe and nobody died except for Serah... the chaos was unleashed anyway... even though the game tells you it has to be a mass killing extinction event?

Cocoon was falling and the people in it will die because of the fall. That's when Hope had an idea to create a new Cocoon (Bhunivelze) that will save mankind as people can move there once Cocoon is about to fall. So yeah, once Cocoon fell, Bhunivelze was risen with everyone in there. Mankind saved.

Yes I know... so how is it the chaos was still released? When the people of cocoon and pulse are on Hopes arc?

[Teoskaven]

Actually... I'll just give you the one for now number 8 on my last list of complaints about the game... that being Cocoon's collapse didn't really seem to do anything.

I think i can answer about it: you see, your interpretation is that it's the phisical fall of Cocoon that will destroy the world, am i correct? Problem is, it's not like this: it's the madness generated from it. In various points of the game, it's explained that after the fall of Cocoon, a series of misunderstanding and fear will bring a civil war. And that is what will destroy Gran Pulse. Cocoon itself is seen as a symbol; that's why Hope wants to build Bunhivelze (or whatever is it's name), to keep this symbol. And if Caius wanted to stopped him, he could have simply smashed the first Cocoon before it's fallen date, but instead, he wants to crush both Cocoon and Bunhivelze. He want to crush the symbol, not the world directly.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Teoskaven

[Badnik Mechanic]

I think i can answer about it: you see, your interpretation is that it's the phisical fall of Cocoon that will destroy the world, am i correct? Problem is, it's not like this: it's the madness generated from it. In various points of the game, it's explained that after the fall of Cocoon, a series of misunderstanding and fear will bring a civil war. And that is what will destroy Gran Pulse. Cocoon itself is seen as a symbol; that's why Hope wants to build Bunhivelze (or whatever is it's name), to keep this symbol. And if Caius wanted to stopped him, he could have simply smashed the first Cocoon before it's fallen date, but instead, he wants to crush both Cocoon and Bunhivelze. He want to crush the symbol, not the world directly.

But even if that was the explanation, it still doesn't explain what happened at the end of the game, the city of arcadia is completely abandoned, and they've known about the collapse for what about 480ish years?

The 'chaos' is released almost instantly but everybody is on the arc. And we're told that this can only happen if a lot of people die at once, as the gates need to be opened a long way, which can also let the chaos come out.

Also, don't we actually see this civil war in one of the paradox endings? It's if you defeat the fully powered atlus, you're transported to the future literally moments before cocoon will fall, they mention the civil war there and that it was stared because people couldn't decide between attempting to resurrect the fal'ci and going human tech road. Theres a line about how the giant war machines were the tipping point, which is why Serah says 'we'll destroy the machines and save cocoon' or something like that.

Even then, when Hope is told about cocoons fall, he starts his plan back in... oh heck.... 10AF? The academy has been built and in one timeline Hope makes a prototype fal-cie as a power source for his plans which turns evil as we see. However, because of Serah and Noels message to the past, hope changes his mind and goes for a human only approach.

Now since then, the academy could be argued as being the 'new fal'ci' in a strange way, in that they control the population, they're been around for hundreds of years and everyone is working towards Hopes plan, everybody seems to know eventually they'll have to leave Pulse because cocoon will fall... yet even in 400AF, theres no sign of people against this plan. Because they've had nearly 400 years to prepare for it. Heck in 400AF, Hope that girl and the random people he brings with him are arguably the only people who would have had any physical connection to cocoon anyway.

[Autosaver]

I can tell that HogFather's GOTY will be "Final Fantasy XIII-2".

[turbojet]

I think i can answer about it: you see, your interpretation is that it's the phisical fall of Cocoon that will destroy the world, am i correct? Problem is, it's not like this: it's the madness generated from it. In various points of the game, it's explained that after the fall of Cocoon, a series of misunderstanding and fear will bring a civil war. And that is what will destroy Gran Pulse. Cocoon itself is seen as a symbol; that's why Hope wants to build Bunhivelze (or whatever is it's name), to keep this symbol. And if Caius wanted to stopped him, he could have simply smashed the first Cocoon before it's fallen date, but instead, he wants to crush both Cocoon and Bunhivelze. He want to crush the symbol, not the world directly.

That has got to be the most overly convoluted plot point that I've ever seen.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Then at 11:48 we see the entire city of arcadia... completely untouched by any debree or even any signs of damage, despite the fact at 10:37 it got hit by the shockwave from cocoon's impact.

Then from 11:48 all the way to 16:59 we can constantly get looks at arcadia and the environment around it... which looks perfectly fine.

But I can't see Arcadia anywhere when Cocoon fell. All I saw was Bhunivelze. Arcadia looks like it was far away to not get affected from the impact.

However what confuses me though, is that the dustclouds magically disappeared when Bhunivelze was on its way up.

Yes I know... so how is it the chaos was still released? When the people of cocoon and pulse are on Hopes arc?

I don't know. I have no clue. It surprised me and I think this question should be answered in Lightning Returns.

[Teoskaven]

But even if that was the explanation, it still doesn't explain what happened at the end of the game, the city of arcadia is completely abandoned, and they've known about the collapse for what about 480ish years?

The 'chaos' is released almost instantly but everybody is on the arc. And we're told that this can only happen if a lot of people die at once, as the gates need to be opened a long way, which can also let the chaos come out.

Also, don't we actually see this civil war in one of the paradox endings? It's if you defeat the fully powered atlus, you're transported to the future literally moments before cocoon will fall, they mention the civil war there and that it was stared because people couldn't decide between attempting to resurrect the fal'ci and going human tech road. Theres a line about how the giant war machines were the tipping point, which is why Serah says 'we'll destroy the machines and save cocoon' or something like that.

Even then, when Hope is told about cocoons fall, he starts his plan back in... oh heck.... 10AF? The academy has been built and in one timeline Hope makes a prototype fal-cie as a power source for his plans which turns evil as we see. However, because of Serah and Noels message to the past, hope changes his mind and goes for a human only approach.

Now since then, the academy could be argued as being the 'new fal'ci' in a strange way, in that they control the population, they're been around for hundreds of years and everyone is working towards Hopes plan, everybody seems to know eventually they'll have to leave Pulse because cocoon will fall... yet even in 400AF, theres no sign of people against this plan. Because they've had nearly 400 years to prepare for it. Heck in 400AF, Hope that girl and the random people he brings with him are arguably the only people who would have had any physical connection to cocoon anyway.

Actually, Academya is populated in 500 AF; it's the effects of the chaos that made the tetris floor who distorted reality. And by the way, the ark is actually a mini-McGuffin since all Hope wants is its technology for making Bunihivelze float.

Also, it's showed that Caius can open gates very easily, that he has control over the chaos and he has a lot of it inside him thanks to the death of Etro. The mass-releasing at the end is made by changing the past with the death of the heart of chaos, wich removes permanently Etro and Caius from the equation of the timeline, causing in fact a giant paradox.

The Titan war and the war between men and machines seen in the Paradox Endings are just alternatives at the main civil war after the fall of Cocoon, They're just different.

And it seems that people are following Hope really for no reason, i agree on that. It doesn't make any sense the absence of oppositors.

Mind you, i don't want to try to defend the game (it was funny to me, but the radical plot changes and the ending were too bitter), but deeply inside, there is some sense. Very deeply.

That has got to be the most overly convoluted plot point that I've ever seen.

Still has more sense than "Cocoon falls, everyone dies", lol

[Badnik Mechanic]

I can tell that HogFather's GOTY will be "Final Fantasy XIII-2".

The thing is... and I know everything I've said so far will make you think I'm lying, I was going to save some of this for another update but...

There is stuff I do actually like... and in some cases I like it a lot.

Remember when I said, I hate the battle theme, it's too sad? Well it is. But... there is one place in the game where it fits really well... well... two.

Shortly after I wrote that, I entered the tower level and learnt about what happened to Hope in one version of history... now the battles that occur, Hope and his friends being killed, the battle then starts, the camera is moving from side to side (it hasn't done this at all until this point), 'the last hunters' begins to play and... it really makes you feel bad for Hope... that little annoying git... for a moment I felt sorry for... the music fitted the moment perfectly, especially with the camera moving the way it did, made you feel uneasy.

I really wish, that the main battle theme for the game was the music that plays when you fight in 'a dying world' I really thought that was a much better battle theme, it's not as good as the other games, but it's so much better'

That said though... the general theme for a dying world is shit. "Lets play these 2... no 3 keys on the piano in a 5 second loop".

Final boss fight? Couldn't stand that music, slapped on FF9's battle theme.

I also think that there is a really good idea behind the changing the time/future, but it's just done so badly in this game. It's too restrictive and you can't see how you affect things until after you complete a zone, then enter an alternative time.

The problem is, what good ideas that are here, they're done so badly. I don't think a lot of the music fits various moments and belongs in other areas. Not saying 'the last hunters' is bad... but as the main battle theme? Erm... not as good as some other tracks in the game. The... heavy metal style boss music is... really not that great.

Caius' plan sounds quite epic when you think about it, 'cause cocoon to fall... and make it crash into Pulse and Hopes arc... but we learn about it too late on in the game, it would be cool if we heard about it early on, then the game is trying to fix the time line as well as hunting him down as well as he hunting us.

Think about it, the last hunters, are hunting the prey who is hunting them or something like that. Not to mention if you learn about Ciaus' plan early on, it gives a sense of futility too, that even though you're changing things, time is eventually going to cause the events to happen. I think when you discover Hope made a good future in Arcadia 400AF, you get the feeling you know humanity is gonna be alright, you just have to find Caius and help out hope. I think it would have added more tension to the story had there been a sense that you knew the Caius was going to destroy the arc at launch early on. Hope and the others have no choice but to continue working, and they in turn must put their faith in you the player to find and stop Caius.

[Conando]

If I'm recalling correctly, the major factor in the world being razed was actually the war following Cocoon's collapse, the time period Atlas came from. It's easy to lose that plot point in the convoluted mess of a story, though.

[pppp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-DUeph8lFc

Well Serah yes, i did think that.

[buba]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-DUeph8lFc

Well Serah yes, i did think that.

Hope is staring at Serah's breasts all the time.

[pppp]

Wow. And i thought this game was stupid. It's not. It's fucking stupid.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Wow. And i thought this game was stupid. It's not. It's fucking stupid.

*typing on iPod so keeping this short.

So when you enter this area the first time objective = destroy all flan!

In this timeline however the fan have started to form schools, and I say that as in teacher educating... Not school as in fish. Your mission? Find the lost flan students... That's right, you go out to find the flan, not kill them.

When you finish the flan kids start to misbehave so you then calm them down... ... By fighting them.

The fight ends and you get... The above cut scene.

... ... ... Ok the idea of thr monsters evolving to a sense of intelligence other than just RAWR BIGGER MONSTER! Is pretty cool and presents an opportunity to make fights or a side story in which thr monsters use cunning to battle you. But... Really? This was the best they could do with that idea? Even Noel comments how he thinks this idea is stupid. The characters themselves are even criticising the game!