Sonic's ideal characterization topic

[Diogenes]

Yet, in Colors, Tails is talking about how intelligent he is and how much Sonic needs him in a sarcastic voice, trying to sound like he is needed. He said this as if he almost want to blackmail Sonic: "See how you would succeed without me!"

Come-fucking-on. You can dress your posts up as much as you want but if you're peddling this bullshit it's a waste of your time and mine. I am seriously sick of these posts that rely on an ass-backwards interpretation of a straightforward scene to malign any characterization or writing that they don't like.

[Tara]

Nobody is insulting anybody.

 

If you people take comparisons and examples so seriously like personal attacks, then what's the point in speaking your mind about what do you like or not, without being labeled as hater ?

 

Plus, I think the people that are satisfied with the current direction have met all their demands so far :

 

Simplistic, light-hearted kiddy stories, filled with silly, juvenile humor and 4th wall breaks a go go, taking place in whimsical, silly-kiddy looking ambientations, with barely any other character in it, aside from Sonic, Tails and Eggman, and when the other appears, they're nothing more than funny yet pointless cameos with no substance whatsoever.

 

I think that there are enough people who are getting fed up of this kind of direction now.

I'm not even sure you understood what I was warning against, so why don't you actually look at the post in question. =/

[PandoloFox]

Come-fucking-on. You can dress your posts up as much as you want but if you're peddling this bullshit it's a waste of your time and mine. I am seriously sick of these posts that rely on an ass-backwards interpretation of a straightforward scene to malign any characterization or writing that they don't like.

Hmm ive heard you say this now quite a few times, im quite interested on your views on the characters. If you wouldnt mind i would like to hear your interpretation of the characters in this game. Ofcourse if youve already given a detailed post about it i would like to ask for a link so i can read it

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

And can you blame the person that if game doesn't get their attention in the first place?

Considering a saga that's taken place in the Sonic 06 thread since page 114, yes it is very possible that it is someone's own fault for missing crucial details of a game's story.

Well to me its because he is joking about their stereotypes, he tells the fat one to diet and excersize in way that is just mean. he was not worried, he just made fun of a fat person.

So what, does this make Sonic in the Adventure and Heroes games a prick for cracking physique jokes at Eggman's expense? If not, them this would serve as grade-A hypocrisy

[PandoloFox]

Considering a saga that's taken place in the Sonic 06 thread since page 114, yes it is very possible that it is someone's own fault for missing crucial details of a game's story.

So what, does this make Sonic in the Adventure and Heroes games a prick for cracking physique jokes at Eggman's expense? If not, them this would serve as grade-A hypocrisy

Im not saying that the adventure games are perfect, theres bound to be similar lines there that i would dislike just as much, its just that its so obvious in this game. The D6 are according to me very one dimensional and has no personality beyond that one character trait like the yellow one being fat. With this in mind its like sonic is making fun of them as a whole and not just making fun of an observation he made of a character. It doesnt look like he views them as a threat either so it just comes of as bullying the weak. I have no problem believing that sonic could make such a joke its just that he does it too often.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

We're not taking about what you think of the Adventure games. We're discussing how on earth Sonic smack-talking villains who bring must and try to kill him makes him as bully.

That said, they don't each have only one trait, it's more so that the Deadly Six just each have a respective trait that emphasized more than other fellow traits that appear.

And even still Pandolo, it's shown in Lost World's story that he does view them as threats so the agreement that he's a built by means of not even viewing them add worthy foes is moot to begin with.

[Xenos]

Im not saying that the adventure games are perfect, theres bound to be similar lines there that i would dislike just as much, its just that its so obvious in this game. The D6 are according to me very one dimensional and has no personality beyond that one character trait like the yellow one being fat. With this in mind its like sonic is making fun of them as a whole and not just making fun of an observation he made of a character. It doesnt look like he views them as a threat either so it just comes of as bullying the weak. I have no problem believing that sonic could make such a joke its just that he does it too often.

 

I don't understand this. The Deadly Six are weak and Sonic is a mean bully for mocking their very obvious flaws, yet Sonic has seen firsthand how dangerous they can be at times, particularly when Sonic himself kicked the shell out of Eggman's hand, letting them run amok. This is the same hedgehog who makes light of situations much more dangerous, by the way.

 

His sarcastic tone to Eggman in SA2, "You've turned into a big time villain, Doctor!"

 

In Sonic Heroes, when getting to the Egg Fleet, he refers to it as getting a goddamn party started.

 

Hell, even in '06 when a ship is about to crash with him on it, the first thing he does is say "Too bad, Eggman!"

 

Sonic's portrayal in Lost World isn't anything new in the slightest.

[PandoloFox]

We're not taking about what you think of the Adventure games. We're discussing how on earth Sonic trading villains who bring must and try to kill him makes him as bully.

That said, they don't each have only one trait, it's more so that the Deadly Six just each have a respective trait that emphasized more than other fellow traits that appear.

And even still Pandolo, it's shown in Lost World's story that he does view them as threats so the agreement that he's a built by means of not even viewing them add worthy foes is moot to begin with.

Im sorry for the misunderstanding of your previous post. 

I could perfectly believe that if they showed more than that trait, the trait theyve been given is entirely in the focus and is there so that we can have a few laughs. You might ofcourse view it differently but i find nothing in them that says im more than a stereotype.

There is only one time when i see Sonic actualy taking the situation seriously and that is when tails is captured. He might take the situation seriously now but that isnt because the D6 is a threat in themselves but because Sonic has something to loose.

I don't understand this. The Deadly Six are weak and Sonic is a mean bully for mocking their very obvious flaws, yet Sonic has seen firsthand how dangerous they can be at times, particularly when Sonic himself kicked the shell out of Eggman's hand, letting them run amok. This is the same hedgehog who makes light of situations much more dangerous, by the way.

 

His sarcastic tone to Eggman in SA2, "You've turned into a big time villain, Doctor!"

 

In Sonic Heroes, when getting to the Egg Fleet, he refers to it as getting a goddamn party started.

 

Hell, even in '06 when a ship is about to crash with him on it, the first thing he does is say "Too bad, Eggman!"

 

Sonic's portrayal in Lost World isn't anything new in the slightest.

That is actualy one of the scenes i actualy enjoy as i said i have no problem seeing sonic making a joke like that but he is having small talks with the D6 that are just standing there and doing other things. they dont seem very interested in taking care of sonic and sonic seems like he just wants to get it over with. Normaly Sonic would itch for a fight against his enemies/rivals ( we see this in sa2 when he confronts shadow, in sa1 when he confronts chaos, in heroes when he sees shadow again and so on ) Here he is just too cocky for his own good and seems to relaxed for being in danger.

Yes i liked that part in sa2, sonic got a bit overconfident because he thought he could trick eggman and then boom he gets trapped. villain points for eggman right there.

I dont remember 06 too much im afraid so cant give you my take on it.

No he hasnt changed much ill give you that but he is now boasting that he is awesome, i might be wrong but to me this is something new and i realy dont like when a hero strutts his stuff like he is the king of the world. 

[Xenos]

But that's what makes Sonic...Sonic.

 

He knows he's good at what he does and he isn't afraid to tell you about it, that's what makes him an actually interesting character. And it adds more to it when his friends also aren't afraid to call him out on his overconfidence, particularly Tails, because it shows he isn't that bright-eyed little follower of Sonic's anymore, he's Sonic's actual partner, and he wants to be treated like a real partner too.

 

I agree the way that Sonic and the D6 interacted could have been handled better, them standing around and talking didn't really make for much during the cutscenes, and it emphasized how static the story felt at times.

[PandoloFox]

But that's what makes Sonic...Sonic.

 

He knows he's good at what he does and he isn't afraid to tell you about it, that's what makes him an actually interesting character. And it adds more to it when his friends also aren't afraid to call him out on his overconfidence, particularly Tails, because it shows he isn't that bright-eyed little follower of Sonic's anymore, he's Sonic's actual partner, and he wants to be treated like a real partner too.

 

I agree the way that Sonic and the D6 interacted could have been handled better, them standing around and talking didn't really make for much during the cutscenes, and it emphasized how static the story felt at times.

You have a point and ill admitt that im probably a bit biased, i just wish the enemies could be more intense i guess.

[Diogenes]

Hmm ive heard you say this now quite a few times, im quite interested on your views on the characters. If you wouldnt mind i would like to hear your interpretation of the characters in this game. Ofcourse if youve already given a detailed post about it i would like to ask for a link so i can read it

In short, while I still have some problems with the writing in Colors and SLoW (more the former than the latter, but the latter still has significant issues), I think the characterization is easily better than anything in the decade or so that preceded them.

I like that the writers have made him a bit more of a punk, because in games before he was too soft, too nice, he didn't have that spiky edge that made him stand out. I do think he could stand to be a bit less talk and a little more action, but I feel like that has more to do with how the games are being made now than some flaw on the writers' part.

 

Tails, poor Tails, ends up getting called every name in the book for how he acted in SLoW, but I sympathized with him. People say he's a braggart, but I say he's just become confident in his skills, a natural extension of his development in the Adventures where he started focusing on his own strengths rather than imitating Sonic. And they needed to establish this in SLoW because it's important to his story. People call him a selfish brat, but let's consider two things: one, Tails was entirely correct about both his skills and it being a bad idea to trust Eggman. Tails was perfectly able to operate Eggman's machine on his own, and Eggman was only using Sonic and Tails to get past the Zeti and continue his plans. Two, he's a kid, who feels like he's been betrayed by his best friend; not only is that a natural enough reason to act out a bit, but that's good for storytelling. That's interesting conflict there, that's conflict with more heart and more guts than almost anything the series has done before. People complain about the writers not having memorized all the minutia of the series' history, but they still do more with the characters than any game previous, because they actually get to the heart of the characters and make them act like real people. Anyway, Tails, he's smart, he's optimistic, but he's still a kid.

 

Eggman, is Eggman, just as he's always been. Is he the most intimidating and threatening villain the series has seen? No. Does he have to be? Also no. We're talking about a guy called Eggman. A guy who started his career of villainy by shoving animals into robots. An egotistic, narcissistic, eccentric, short-tempered, hammy manchild, smart enough and driven enough to be dangerous, but still one of his own worst enemies. People say they can't take him seriously if he's the butt of a joke, but I say that they're only letting you take him as seriously as he's meant to be. People try to paint him as some pitch-black villain due to the Death Egg or the Eclipse Cannon or whatever, and ignore that he's also the dude stomping on the "End" in the credits like a child throwing a tantrum.

[PandoloFox]

In short, while I still have some problems with the writing in Colors and SLoW (more the former than the latter, but the latter still has significant issues), I think the characterization is easily better than anything in the decade or so that preceded them.

I like that the writers have made him a bit more of a punk, because in games before he was too soft, too nice, he didn't have that spiky edge that made him stand out. I do think he could stand to be a bit less talk and a little more action, but I feel like that has more to do with how the games are being made now than some flaw on the writers' part.

 

Tails, poor Tails, ends up getting called every name in the book for how he acted in SLoW, but I sympathized with him. People say he's a braggart, but I say he's just become confident in his skills, a natural extension of his development in the Adventures where he started focusing on his own strengths rather than imitating Sonic. And they needed to establish this in SLoW because it's important to his story. People call him a selfish brat, but let's consider two things: one, Tails was entirely correct about both his skills and it being a bad idea to trust Eggman. Tails was perfectly able to operate Eggman's machine on his own, and Eggman was only using Sonic and Tails to get past the Zeti and continue his plans. Two, he's a kid, who feels like he's been betrayed by his best friend; not only is that a natural enough reason to act out a bit, but that's good for storytelling. That's interesting conflict there, that's conflict with more heart and more guts than almost anything the series has done before. People complain about the writers not having memorized all the minutia of the series' history, but they still do more with the characters than any game previous, because they actually get to the heart of the characters and make them act like real people. Anyway, Tails, he's smart, he's optimistic, but he's still a kid.

 

Eggman, is Eggman, just as he's always been. Is he the most intimidating and threatening villain the series has seen? No. Does he have to be? Also no. We're talking about a guy called Eggman. A guy who started his career of villainy by shoving animals into robots. An egotistic, narcissistic, eccentric, short-tempered, hammy manchild, smart enough and driven enough to be dangerous, but still one of his own worst enemies. People say they can't take him seriously if he's the butt of a joke, but I say that they're only letting you take him as seriously as he's meant to be. People try to paint him as some pitch-black villain due to the Death Egg or the Eclipse Cannon or whatever, and ignore that he's also the dude stomping on the "End" in the credits like a child throwing a tantrum.

Thanks for your reply, its definately an interesting take on it and i can agree to that compared to the games weve had for awhile this game actualy is trying to portray weak moments in our heroes which is always a welcomed addition.

The biggest problem i have with tails in Slw is that he never acknowledges sonics worries, guilt and reasons for wanting to team up with eggman. He never apologizes for being a bit too harsch on sonic either and just proceeds to say yeah i was right like if that would make his previous behaviour okay. I have no problem with tails starting to recognizing his own abilities but when it goes so far that he cant even sympathise with others i get annoyed since that is not a developement in character but rather a regression.

Ah yes eggman in sonic 1 did stomp on the end sign at the credits wich i thought was understandable since this is his first encounter with sonic. He getting pissed of for being defeated by a blue hedgehog was natural to me, this was also after he was defeated and not while he was being a threat. Eggman can certainly have comedic moments but i would like him to be a lttle bit more effective so that he can earn being a bit goofy. seeing someone that is powerful and a force to be reconed with be a bit goofy is funny, seeing a person that utterly fails and isnt respected be goofy gets me annoyed.

well thats just my take on it

[danidado]

Post-Colors Sonic is just a mere flanderization, a husk of his former awesome self.

[Dracold]

...

 

I like that the writers have made him a bit more of a punk, because in games before he was too soft, too nice, he didn't have that spiky edge that made him stand out. I do think he could stand to be a bit less talk and a little more action, but I feel like that has more to do with how the games are being made now than some flaw on the writers' part.

 

Tails, poor Tails, ends up getting called every name in the book for how he acted in SLoW, but I sympathized with him. People say he's a braggart, but I say he's just become confident in his skills, a natural extension of his development in the Adventures where he started focusing on his own strengths rather than imitating Sonic. And they needed to establish this in SLoW because it's important to his story. People call him a selfish brat, but let's consider two things: one, Tails was entirely correct about both his skills and it being a bad idea to trust Eggman. Tails was perfectly able to operate Eggman's machine on his own, and Eggman was only using Sonic and Tails to get past the Zeti and continue his plans. Two, he's a kid, who feels like he's been betrayed by his best friend; not only is that a natural enough reason to act out a bit, but that's good for storytelling. That's interesting conflict there, that's conflict with more heart and more guts than almost anything the series has done before. People complain about the writers not having memorized all the minutia of the series' history, but they still do more with the characters than any game previous, because they actually get to the heart of the characters and make them act like real people. Anyway, Tails, he's smart, he's optimistic, but he's still a kid.

 

Eggman, is Eggman, just as he's always been. Is he the most intimidating and threatening villain the series has seen? No. Does he have to be? Also no. We're talking about a guy called Eggman. A guy who started his career of villainy by shoving animals into robots. An egotistic, narcissistic, eccentric, short-tempered, hammy manchild, smart enough and driven enough to be dangerous, but still one of his own worst enemies. People say they can't take him seriously if he's the butt of a joke, but I say that they're only letting you take him as seriously as he's meant to be. People try to paint him as some pitch-black villain due to the Death Egg or the Eclipse Cannon or whatever, and ignore that he's also the dude stomping on the "End" in the credits like a child throwing a tantrum.

 

More than the writers are to blame. That's for sure. But Sonic is hardly more edgy in the action sense. He is just sarcastic and keeps laughing at people for being stupid. He was never so slow and boring before. And the games are being less and less sold with each installment. Also, Sonic should be much nicer to his friends. Picking on Eggman could work (but the issue here is with Eggman), but being completely detached from everyone around him is just bad. He never even talked to any of his friends as of lately. He only talked to Eggman and Tails. And to Amy through the device. But that was hardly any kind of speech that would present us how the new writers made the characters "more awesome than ever before". From his speech with Amy, we can pretty much feel that it is just empty as anything that was presented before. This time, they clearly focused on Sonic and Tails relationship... well, for three games straight already. And they really didn't improve anything.

 

You must be one of the very few who could sympathize with Tails. I do sympathize with him. But all for the opposite reasons. The creature sharing Tails' form in SLW is not Tails at all. And we know it for sure that it is the case, since the writer made this statement:

"I am not familiar with this Adventure you are talking about..."

Here, he confessed that he knew nothing about Sonic Adventures. So Any defense of that "Tails" behavior how he got confidence is just false. It was no "character development", he wrote him the way he wrote him because he though he was supposed to be like that. There was no context to it. Definitely no continuity and definitely no intention of making any character ark and development.

The part about "become confident in his skills" is just nonsensical. We can see that in SLW, the opposite has happened. People who are confident in their skills don't get offended because of unspoken statements. It was clear that Pontac wrote that scene with Tails, Sonic and Eggman as misunderstanding. Tails suddenly verbally attacked Sonic for believing Eggman more than Tails. Sonic never said anything like that in the first place. And even if Eggman knew his OWN systems and machines more than Tails (which is only logical) it wouldn't have to mean that he was smarter than Tails. Since Tails went on rampage over this insignificant issue (Eggman wanting to correct his own mistake), he is shown as insecure instead of confident.

The idea of Tails being entirely correct is incredibly forced here. Not only the events don't feel logical or natural, Tails didn't trust Eggman because he thought that he was too stupid to be able to undo the catastrophe, not because he thought that Eggman would betray them. Tails never even hinted that bad motives or betrayal were in the equation. The entire thing was about Tails being superior to Eggman in every way. And the script made him entirely correct. That is not even a good thing. Now imagine the most annoying character you can and make him do stuff you resent the most. If in the end it shows, that despite you not feeling any positive relation to that character, all the character did was still validated by the story... you will hardly feel any better about him. Normally, people don't like when the script of the story validates the behavior of jerks.

The writers don't know the heart of the characters. They never did. Nor they ever cared. They did their own thing with them. There is only this illusion that the characters did more than before, because they kept standing there and talking. Never before they were so talkative. But people give it more credit, even despite the plot was naked and hollow. Just because they were talking. The characters were there just to straightly state whatever crossed the writers minds. No subtlety there at all. Every point the writers wanted to make had to be explicitly stated by some of the characters. I feel it would be much better for this kind of plot to not have this talking there and have the characters empty like they were in the last decade. Because like that, we could at least imagine them being like their former selves. Now they just talk "like real people". But they talk like real people in the office in their boring jobs, complaining about their superiors and laughing at other people's stupidity. They don't talk like superpowered anthro hedgehogs on a crazy insane adventure. Tails didn't even talk like "a real kid". Kids are mostly never got right in storytelling, as they always act like small adults. And that was the way Tails was acting. He wasn't acting like a kid, but like a childish adult. Nothing in his behavior implied anything about "kid". He acted just like an adult, who felt being underestimated. He acted like Anakin in Starwars II and III. While being kid in most cases makes you much more humble. Only spoiled kids think that they are always right. And Tails would never be likable if he was portrayed as a spoiled kid. Nor does it make sense to "evolve" his character into a spoiled kid.

 

Eggman doesn't threaten anyone with anything. Him acting childish makes sense sometimes. But he is never being presented as a threat anymore. He never accomplishes anything. He does no longer even have any plan at all. Not ever since Unleashed. In Unleashed, he kind of had a plan, but after the intro cutscene, he just sat in his base and waited for Sonic to trash it. In Colors, he had a plan but his plan began to fail even without Sonic coming in there. Sonic was there just to laugh at Eggmans incompetence. How does it make sense he was even able to build that huge thing? He built that only because it happened off screen. On screen, he would keep tripping over banana peels and his robots would keep laughing at him for a comedic effect. He would never achieve anything. In SLW, he didn't even have a plot. He already had an untimate Deus Ex Machina machine that he built from scratch and was more powerful than Death Egg, ARK and Unleashed cannon combine. Yet, he didn't have any plans with that. He only kept capturing animals for nothing. This doesn't make for a villain. This is just straight a comic relief. My problem with Sonic is that he doesn't take Eggman seriously anymore. But looking at Eggman now, it's obvious why he doesn't. It would be stupid if he did. Eggman is his own worse enemy. He doesn't even need Sonic, a superfast and superpowered hedgehog, to thwart his plans. Eggman could have his plans spoiled by Donald McDuck. There is no sense of accomplishment for Sonic to beat a character insignificant like that.

Eggman was amusing because he was a real threat and once he failed, he might have acted stupid and childish. But if he acts like that constantly to the point of this behavior standing in his way to actually work in the story - he is meaningless. He no longer has any leading role and he is there just to act like a clown. He should be the top dog. The BOSS. He should be the one deciding where the plot goes. He should keep his pressure on Sonic and manipulate the events. Now, he is only swayed with the script. It's to a lesser extent so in Generations and Colors... however, in Generations, he is barely there, he just pop out in the end. And in Colors, it still feels like he has barely any control over what he's trying to do.

[DBZHedgy]

Tails, poor Tails, ends up getting called every name in the book for how he acted in SLoW, but I sympathized with him. People say he's a braggart, but I say he's just become confident in his skills, a natural extension of his development in the Adventures where he started focusing on his own strengths rather than imitating Sonic. And they needed to establish this in SLoW because it's important to his story. People call him a selfish brat, but let's consider two things: one, Tails was entirely correct about both his skills and it being a bad idea to trust Eggman. Tails was perfectly able to operate Eggman's machine on his own, and Eggman was only using Sonic and Tails to get past the Zeti and continue his plans. Two, he's a kid, who feels like he's been betrayed by his best friend; not only is that a natural enough reason to act out a bit, but that's good for storytelling. That's interesting conflict there, that's conflict with more heart and more guts than almost anything the series has done before. People complain about the writers not having memorized all the minutia of the series' history, but they still do more with the characters than any game previous, because they actually get to the heart of the characters and make them act like real people. Anyway, Tails, he's smart, he's optimistic, but he's still a kid.

Why should he be confident in his skills if he knows, Sonic knows, Eggman knows, and practically every acknowledgable character in the series knows that he's a technical whiz at pretty much everything?

He was the very stronghold of their success in Sonic Riders! And Several other entries as well. THAT is not

ONLY self-centered people in that position would act like that. Countless times Sonic has relied on Tails to do several things, and if not for him, Sonic could/would be DEAD or worse! That certainly is not minute, that happens in every Sonic game that feature Sonic and Tails working together.

 

It isn't to say that Sonic was brushing him off and being ungrateful in the beginning, because he wasn't at all, he was only asking if the Plane was fixed. That's it. He didn't make a snide remark about how he's taken a shorter time to fix it before with more damages, or being impatient and tapping his foot or whatever. 

 

What recognition would Tails need to search for if ALWAYS had it? Except for Colors, but he really was useless in that game.

 

 

Eggman, is Eggman, just as he's always been. Is he the most intimidating and threatening villain the series has seen? No. Does he have to be? Also no. We're talking about a guy called Eggman. A guy who started his career of villainy by shoving animals into robots. An egotistic, narcissistic, eccentric, short-tempered, hammy manchild, smart enough and driven enough to be dangerous, but still one of his own worst enemies. People say they can't take him seriously if he's the butt of a joke, but I say that they're only letting you take him as seriously as he's meant to be. People try to paint him as some pitch-black villain due to the Death Egg or the Eclipse Cannon or whatever, and ignore that he's also the dude stomping on the "End" in the credits like a child throwing a tantrum.

Just because someone is capable of making mistakes and acting childish, it does not mean that they cannot be taken seriously. If a CLOWN had a gun pointed to someone I loved very deeply, I would indeed take him seriously! Being egotistical, Narcissistic, and short-tempered does not excuse Eggman for his mean spirited Nature in the past. 

Building theme parks in search of Global Conquest is something that should be taken seriously regardless of it's appearance.

 

If Eggman was written as some REALLY low level villain who can barely do a thing right and never comes close to his goal, then Yes, he is worth being the butt of the joke. But Eggman is a VERY REAL THREAT regardless of his nature.

[Tani Coyote]

Post-Colors Sonic is just a mere flanderization, a husk of his former awesome self.

Hello! Would you please expand this post a little bit to elaborate? It doesn't really add much to the topic due to its short length and lack of explanation.

[danidado]

Hello! Would you please expand this post a little bit to elaborate? It doesn't really add much to the topic due to its short length and lack of explanation.

 

I'm very glad that you asked that ! 

 

Sorry if I haven't responded earlier.

 

At any rate...Why Post-Colors Sonic is a flanderized husk of his former self ?

 

Let's take in account these incarnations of Sonic : Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes and '06 (both partially), Secret Rings, Unleashed and Black Knight.

 

In all these games, Sonic was well rounded character : he loved adventures, he loved challenges, he fought for justice, freedom, and even for fun. He never underestimated his enemies nor his friends. He joked around threats, yes, but always treating them as a new challenge to overcome,NOT as ridiculous clowns to troll and consatntly joke about. He also knew when to take things seriously (again, SA2, Unleashed, Secret Rings and Black Knight). He was cocky, but always in a balanced way, because he followed the philosophy of "Show, don't tell". His self remarks were always told in a playful, natural manner. He also had intuition and could come up with simple, improvised yet effective plans (see the end of Hero Story in SA2, and the end of Secret Rings). When he had something in mind and/or something to do (find and stop Shadow, save Elise, stop Eggman, doing on whatever task), he was determinated in doing it at every cost. He also knew he could rely on his friends' help, and was always there to boost them with positivity, were they the original bunch (Tails, Knuckles, Amy), or "special guests" (Elise, Shahra, Chip, Merlina). Sonic was also capable of deep feelings, he was easily-forgiving and always giving inspiration to them. All of this, playing by his own rules (much like the song(s) "It doesn't matter" said, which both also give a portrait of Sonic with their lyrics).

 

Sonic was truly a Chaotic Good character. Until Colors.

 

From Colors and on (Boom included, even though it's a different universe) Sonic is Chaotic....Neutral ???

 

Anyway, he doesn't care about adventures anymore (he never talked about going on an adventure in none of the Post Colors games), he doesn't even treat anything like challenges. Everything for Pontaff/Roger's Sonic is a joke to underplay for teh lulz, everything revolves around him. All he does is boasting, boasting, boasting and MORE boasting about  how "awesome and cool" he is (and he's not). He doesn't even fight for adventure, fun, freedom and justice. He just love to troll Eggman 24/7, and the fact that Eggman is now a pathetic joke, doesn't help. He doesn't treat his "friends" properly, if he still have any friends, besides Tails being his boot-licker more than his friend. In Generations, this is blatant : he never talks to any of them, he doesn't even mention them, he pushes Amy away like whatever. All he cares in Generations, is that goddamn stupid chili dog he received from Tails. In Lost World, he just whine about Tails' kidnapping, and NEVER takes action. And don't even make me started on Boom, at least, what I've seen so far. He's basically Pontaff x100, and the way he treats his team mates is revolting (even though there's that small cutscene where he jokes around with Knuckles, but predictably, everything will be probably underplayed once more for the sake of lulz on how Boom/Roger's Sonic is "funny" and "wae pust cuhl")

 

Plus, Roger Craig Smith give him this "Whatever. I don't give a shit" tone of voice in front of danger...Scratch that, in front of EVERYTHING.  

 

So, he's nothing but a self-righteous, trollish, uncaring, insensitive, superficial, reckless, idiotic, simple-minded, uneffective, selfish, whiny, immature, obnoxious, matter-of-factly, incompetent, dudebro-ish attention whore and bully.

 

Even his AoStH incarnation knew when to get serious and how to treat his friends properly. Hell, he even gave lessons of life in "Sonic Sez"

 

Now Sonic is DEVOID of any good trait he had. And Roger is demonstrating how unfit he is as his voice actor. What's the point of "sounding older" when your character behaves like a despicable self-indulging spoiled brat ? He's more like a reflection of himself : a stoned, bored and overly-sarcastic 30 year old slacker trying hard to be "wee pasht cuhl" and "young" with this stupid, brainless dudebro behaviour of "Good one, buddy" "'Sup, Yacker" "Lol MCNOSEHAIR" and brofists, when in reality, he's just obnoxious, despicable, and overly self-indulging with his putrid and tasteless sense of humor.

 

Regarding Tails and Eggman, I think Dracold and DBZHedgy already spoke on my behalf.

[Nepenthe]

And Roger is demonstrating how unfit he is as his voice actor. What's the point of "sounding older" when your character behaves like a despicable self-indulging spoiled brat ? He's more like a reflection of himself : a stoned, bored and overly-sarcastic 30 year old slacker trying hard to be "wee pasht cuhl" and "young" with this stupid, brainless dudebro behaviour of "Good one, buddy" "'Sup, Yacker" "Lol MCNOSEHAIR" and brofists, when in reality, he's just obnoxious, despicable, and overly self-indulging with his putrid and tasteless sense of humor.

 

I don't think I've read a single cogent rant from you that was actually devoid of personal insults or implications of some sort towards someone, and this bit is further worsened by lack of displayed knowledge about how the voice acting industry works (you can't achieve what Roger's done by being a stoned slacker.) It also perfectly encapsulates the kind of tone and behavior we're actually trying to get rid of. Well, that and this--

 

he's nothing but a self-righteous, trollish, uncaring, insensitive, superficial, reckless, idiotic, simple-minded, uneffective, selfish, whiny, immature, obnoxious, matter-of-factly, incompetent, dudebro-ish attention whore and bully.

 

 

-- because, simply put, this kind of overbearing, excessive, and outright ignorant language fucks up discussion by shitting on politeness and the benefit of the doubt. And in all of the times staff have said something to others about statements that were either directed towards a member or being made in general in this topic, it seems you never got what we were saying. It's really only by the grace of God that the nicer staff members have been the ones to talk to you at this point, as well as the fact that you managed to avoid being personal towards any actual members in this post, otherwise I would have striked you for this continuous behavior on the spot.

 

I'm not telling you you have to like anything you actively dislike. I'm telling you you have to be mindful of at least the bare minimum standards of engaging in a conversation we have here on this forum if you plan to last here long. Tone down the incessant negativity and flaming. This is your last personal warning.

[Vertekins]

Now Sonic is DEVOID of any good trait he had. And Roger is demonstrating how unfit he is as his voice actor. What's the point of "sounding older" when your character behaves like a despicable self-indulging spoiled brat ? He's more like a reflection of himself : a stoned, bored and overly-sarcastic 30 year old slacker trying hard to be "wee pasht cuhl" and "young" with this stupid, brainless dudebro behaviour of "Good one, buddy" "'Sup, Yacker" "Lol MCNOSEHAIR" and brofists, when in reality, he's just obnoxious, despicable, and overly self-indulging with his putrid and tasteless sense of humor.

 

Now hold on a sec, this isn't Roger's fault.

 

Roger can only portray the character the way his director...directs him to and it's the inherent tone of the lines that largely dictates the direction he takes Sonic's voice. Whilst voice is undoubtedly an important factor in how a character comes-off, it's the script and direction that is the predominant factor in it all.

 

Roger's a very talented VA. He has considerable range and proved he can be an awesome Sonic in Lost World with the range of emotional states he was given to work with in that game as well as the higher quality script. Before that, what afflicted his performance was questionable direction and poor script that flanderized the character and that isn't his fault in the slightest.

[nintega137]

The day many of Archie Sonic's traits weasel their way into Game Sonic's characterization is the day I'll likely lose my appreciation for the character and consign it to having been seriously badly affected. Especially given that such a number of Archie Sonic's traits are downright contradictory to the game one.

 

A big issue with Archie Sonic is that he’s needlessly subordinate to Sally and his romance with her morphs the very basis of his character into something that it isn’t to facilitate it.

 

Yes, Sonic isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

Yes. He’s impulsive and such.

 

But you know what? Despite that, he’s still a resourceful guy who the comic writer’s have never assigned credibility to regarding his intelligence because surprise surprise, Sally has to point at something and tell him to attack it to make their dynamic look good and to make herself look relevant.

 

That isn’t giving Sonic’s character the credibility it deserves. It degenerates him from impulsive yet quick-thinking guy who does what he wants without regard to anyone’s dictations and yet who can save his own ass since he is quick-thinking and naturally resourceful into an obedient yes-man who has that impulsiveness undermined and therefore a fault of his character largely ignored to elevate the role of this Mary Sue.

 

This isn’t a more interesting Sonic than the game’s version to me for that reason alone.

 

There are many more examples of why Archie Sonic is a notably bad iteration of the character as far as I'm concerned such as his support for the Acorns when they’re a bunch of corrupt monarchs adverse to the real views of the citizens when in reality Sonic is a guy who stands up for what’s right and opposes institutions who are adverse to the views of the people in the interest of personal power or one-sided views i.e The Eggman Empire, Merlina.

 

And I certain as hell never want to see utter BS like this, don't want to see game Sonic ever doing this, nor ever be inclined to doing so in the first place;

 

WHY IS HE BEATING UP TAILS?! No seriously I don't really read archie, comics. I know a little about them, but could someone explain this too me please?

[Vertekins]

WHY IS HE BEATING UP TAILS?! No seriously I don't really read archie, comics. I know a little about them, but could someone explain this too me please?

 

Tails' father managed to rally an angry mob against the Acorns because he (And them evidently) were sick and tired of their failings. Daddy is promptly imprisoned. Tails sides with his father, is upset about his incarceration and is angered when Sonic jerkishly makes disparaging remarks about him despite him having only recently been reunited with his previously long-lost parents.

 

Tails decides to break his father out of prison himself in the middle of the night. Sonic is enlightened to this by NICOLE and makes his way to the prison himself before she can say who the perpetrator of the break-out is. When Sonic states that what dad is doing is treason and such and that Amadeus has to stay behind bars, he discounts Tails' mom's question about whether or not Tails would hold it against him because...well, I'll let Sonic say it;

 

 

Tails attacks him from behind and tells him to get over himself (Don't blame the fox kid personally). This leads to an even greater deepening of the tension and Sonic tells him to cut it out angrily. Tails refuses to, stating that he's had it coming for a long time. And that's what leads to Sonic assuring him that he'll give him a pounding.

[nintega137]

Wow............... Ok this is going just off of that one scene alone, but that kinda makes sonic sound like a complete insensitive jerk.  

[Ash Cloud]

Now hold on a sec, this isn't Roger's fault.

 

Roger can only portray the character the way his director...directs him to and it's the inherent tone of the lines that largely dictates the direction he takes Sonic's voice. Whilst voice is undoubtedly an important factor in how a character comes-off, it's the script and direction that is the predominant factor in it all.

 

Roger's a very talented VA. He has considerable range and proved he can be an awesome Sonic in Lost World with the range of emotional states he was given to work with in that game as well as the higher quality script. Before that, what afflicted his performance was questionable direction and poor script that flanderized the character and that isn't his fault in the slightest.

While I do agree that Roger should not take the blame for the dialogue (that falls entirely to the writers), I can not agree with your statements.

- "Roger can only portray the way his director...directs him to and it's the inherent tone of the lines that largely dictates the direction he takes Sonic's voice."

That is not true. The voice actors have control over how they portray the characters, the directors only guide them and tell them which direction to go in based on the character's personality. I recall watching a video on Youtube about the VA's from Sonic X. Dan Green, Knuckles voice actor, said that he wanted to portray Knuckles in a way that was similar to how Scott Dreier voiced him in Sonic Adventure 2 and Heroes. He even went and asked Dreier for advice on what kind of tone he should give Knuckles. If only I could find that video.

- "Roger's a very talented VA", is completely opinion. You believe he has a "considerable range", but I don't at all. I honestly don't care for the voice he gives Sonic, and to me, he has the same Sophomore-in-College, athelete/jock voice no matter what emotion Sonic expresses. 

Now, to danidado's defense he did say: "Plus, Roger Craig Smith give him this "Whatever. I don't give a shit" tone of voice in front of danger...Scratch that, in front of EVERYTHING."

In the case of Roger's tone of voice, danidado has a right to criticize him.

[TheMessiah999]

Tails' father managed to rally an angry mob against the Acorns because he (And them evidently) were sick and tired of their failings. Daddy is promptly imprisoned. Tails sides with his father, is upset about his incarceration and is angered when Sonic jerkishly makes disparaging remarks about him despite him having only recently been reunited with his previously long-lost parents.

 

Tails decides to break his father out of prison himself in the middle of the night. Sonic is enlightened to this by NICOLE and makes his way to the prison himself before she can say who the perpetrator of the break-out is. When Sonic states that what dad is doing is treason and such and that Amadeus has to stay behind bars, he discounts Tails' mom's question about whether or not Tails would hold it against him because...well, I'll let Sonic say it;

 

 

Tails attacks him from behind and tells him to get over himself (Don't blame the fox kid personally). This leads to an even greater deepening of the tension and Sonic tells him to cut it out angrily. Tails refuses to, stating that he's had it coming for a long time. And that's what leads to Sonic assuring him that he'll give him a pounding.

That's nice but did you read the comic afterwards? Do you really think Sonic wanted to fight Tails? Throughout the whole comic series Tails knew little about his parent's and grew up with Sonic and his friends. Now i know little about Archie however i don't think it deserves hate. Espically since in this same comic and afterwards Sonic and Tails made up afterwards according to my research....The whole fight was because Tails was in love with Finoa before...Sonic apologized and understood his feelings anyway.

 

However that doesn't matter anyway.

I'm very glad that you asked that ! 

 

Sorry if I haven't responded earlier.

 

At any rate...Why Post-Colors Sonic is a flanderized husk of his former self ?

 

Let's take in account these incarnations of Sonic : Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes and '06 (both partially), Secret Rings, Unleashed and Black Knight.

 

In all these games, Sonic was well rounded character : he loved adventures, he loved challenges, he fought for justice, freedom, and even for fun. He never underestimated his enemies nor his friends. He joked around threats, yes, but always treating them as a new challenge to overcome,NOT as ridiculous clowns to troll and consatntly joke about. He also knew when to take things seriously (again, SA2, Unleashed, Secret Rings and Black Knight). He was cocky, but always in a balanced way, because he followed the philosophy of "Show, don't tell". His self remarks were always told in a playful, natural manner. He also had intuition and could come up with simple, improvised yet effective plans (see the end of Hero Story in SA2, and the end of Secret Rings). When he had something in mind and/or something to do (find and stop Shadow, save Elise, stop Eggman, doing on whatever task), he was determinated in doing it at every cost. He also knew he could rely on his friends' help, and was always there to boost them with positivity, were they the original bunch (Tails, Knuckles, Amy), or "special guests" (Elise, Shahra, Chip, Merlina). Sonic was also capable of deep feelings, he was easily-forgiving and always giving inspiration to them. All of this, playing by his own rules (much like the song(s) "It doesn't matter" said, which both also give a portrait of Sonic with their lyrics).

 

Sonic was truly a Chaotic Good character. Until Colors.

 

From Colors and on (Boom included, even though it's a different universe) Sonic is Chaotic....Neutral ???

 

Anyway, he doesn't care about adventures anymore (he never talked about going on an adventure in none of the Post Colors games), he doesn't even treat anything like challenges. Everything for Pontaff/Roger's Sonic is a joke to underplay for teh lulz, everything revolves around him. All he does is boasting, boasting, boasting and MORE boasting about  how "awesome and cool" he is (and he's not). He doesn't even fight for adventure, fun, freedom and justice. He just love to troll Eggman 24/7, and the fact that Eggman is now a pathetic joke, doesn't help. He doesn't treat his "friends" properly, if he still have any friends, besides Tails being his boot-licker more than his friend. In Generations, this is blatant : he never talks to any of them, he doesn't even mention them, he pushes Amy away like whatever. All he cares in Generations, is that goddamn stupid chili dog he received from Tails. In Lost World, he just whine about Tails' kidnapping, and NEVER takes action. And don't even make me started on Boom, at least, what I've seen so far. He's basically Pontaff x100, and the way he treats his team mates is revolting (even though there's that small cutscene where he jokes around with Knuckles, but predictably, everything will be probably underplayed once more for the sake of lulz on how Boom/Roger's Sonic is "funny" and "wae pust cuhl")

 

Plus, Roger Craig Smith give him this "Whatever. I don't give a shit" tone of voice in front of danger...Scratch that, in front of EVERYTHING.  

 

So, he's nothing but a self-righteous, trollish, uncaring, insensitive, superficial, reckless, idiotic, simple-minded, uneffective, selfish, whiny, immature, obnoxious, matter-of-factly, incompetent, dudebro-ish attention whore and bully.

 

Even his AoStH incarnation knew when to get serious and how to treat his friends properly. Hell, he even gave lessons of life in "Sonic Sez"

 

Now Sonic is DEVOID of any good trait he had. And Roger is demonstrating how unfit he is as his voice actor. What's the point of "sounding older" when your character behaves like a despicable self-indulging spoiled brat ? He's more like a reflection of himself : a stoned, bored and overly-sarcastic 30 year old slacker trying hard to be "wee pasht cuhl" and "young" with this stupid, brainless dudebro behaviour of "Good one, buddy" "'Sup, Yacker" "Lol MCNOSEHAIR" and brofists, when in reality, he's just obnoxious, despicable, and overly self-indulging with his putrid and tasteless sense of humor.

 

Regarding Tails and Eggman, I think Dracold and DBZHedgy already spoke on my behalf.

Very good post.... Smh indeed Sonic just trolls and never has any fun with his adventures...Back then he was so much better. Sonic would NEVER call himself slow.

[E-122-Psi]

It should maybe be noted Sonic doesn't really fight Tails (last panels of Part Ones tend to be deceitful in buildup like that). Part Two was more or less him just trying to avoid or restrain a feral Tails beating the smack out of him, making only one spin attack when the latter pins him to a wall to try give him a curbstomp.

 

I did not like that story however, Archie Sonic just really comes off the wrong way to me, he has all the self righteousness and obnoxiousness people complain about Pontac's Sonic but upped to eleven, and replacing the comedic setup with angst and melodrama. One could consider it worse since Sonic's arrogance in Archie has serious long lasting consequences on people, and he usually learns from it as successfully.