Is the tone of Colors really that bad?

[Aquaslash]

I maintain that everything about Storybook was awful. I rented, and then pirated them and I still felt ripped off.

I also maintain that 06 and Unleashed were extremely boring. Sonic Rivals 2 and Sonic Free Riders have more interesting dialogue than those games, and all the scenes in both are basically pre ass kicking trash talk.

Sonic Colors had the best characterization for Sonic, Tails, and Eggman since Sonic Adventure 2. Hell it pretty much exceeded those games. All three characters were exactly what they should have been. While this doesn't have much to do with story, Sonic and Tails greatly benefited from having the best voice acting they've had in the games period.

If the game stories go back to being as boring as Unleashed, I guess I'm gonna have to go back to depending on Archie Comics for a decent Sonic narrative. They finally nailed Sonic's character! I'd be really sad to see it go.

[Nepenthe]

Never said the series started out wacky, I just said it was fairly wacky,what with all of Eggman's badnik design and whatnot, and even the Adventure games kept that.

Once again, I'm not accusing you of saying anything you haven't said, so you don't need to be on the defensive like that. I was merely disagreeing. xP

And I never said it was, I did say it was appreciated and made things interesting. In terms of plot both ShTH and Colors both kind of suck, but Colors kind has an edge with both characterization and voice acting which is probably why people like it more(I know its the reason I like it more) than anything before it, if all of the games had say the same kind of tone that the storybook games had(While having Colors` sense of self aware humor), then yes there would be harmony, so much harmony.

Colors having an edge of ShtH in terms of characterization and voice acting means that it merely has better characterization and voice acting. However, neither these are necessarily products of the tone. Heroes has a similar tone as Colors, and both its characterization and voice acting suck.

I'm sorry, I really do respect your opinion, but I just don't think we're gonna see eye to eye on this one. I don't really see what you mean when you say we aren't discussing quality though. Are we not discussing the quality of the tone? Personally, I love the Sonic mythos and pretty much everything about the series. As much as I'd LOVE to see some real creative breakthroughs for the series narrative wise, I just don't think it'll happen any time soon. I think Sonic and the cast of characters created around him are just perfect for the toonish tone of Sonic Colors and I support it. Also, having that toonish tone doesn't mean Sonic can't smash through robotic armadas, explore alternate universes, or react to a serious moment every once in a while.

However, I really do like the bolded statement there. I like the ambition you have for the franchise and honestly wouldn't be upset if you or someone like you had creative input on the series. In fact, I would be overjoyed. But in the here and now, I realistically feel we're getting the best quality product Sonic Team is capable of putting out on the market. I can see they're trying harder and harder with each game. This tone is working right now in my opinion so I say let them roll with it for a bit.

The tangent you and I were personally on wasn't necessarily in reference to the quality of the tone (e.g. whether or not the atmosphere was pulled off well), but rather whether or not certain tones were particularly appropriate to begin with.

I think there's confusion in where I'm coming from, so I'm going to back up and elaborate: Tone/atmosphere is just one quality of the story, the same as characterization, cast, plotting, narrative, and setting are qualities of the story. While all of these elements ideally need to come together in a cohesive experience, it's not a hard rule that they all be similar all the time. In other words, you can have some emotional plot threads and revelations in a story that has an overall lighthearted or silly atmosphere. Western animation in general thrives off this model, and there's no rational film critic in the world who complained about Mufasa dying on the grounds of he's a cartoon lion in a cartoon world and thus death is disallowed because cartoons have to be silly all the time. This is stereotypical thinking that Disney himself shattered immediately in the 30s; I'd say we've moved well past that.

And while I thank you for the compliment, I'm personally not asking for narrative breakthroughs of Pixar caliber. =P It'd be nice if it were done well, but I don't think it's necessary. I'll reiterate, I just don't see why the series' narratives have to be bad Looney Tunes cartoons for six to eight hours, especially if they're going to shoehorn in apocalyptic destruction at the 11th hour anyway. A story like Unleashed, one where it's not inherently as deep as a Pixar toon, but still has a lot of silly stuff going on amidst the overarching problem of Dark Gaia isn't out of the series' hands regardless of the aesthetic of the characters and world.

The fact that such a narrative atmosphere has been decried so much by non-fans is, I think, simply another example of the melodramatic group think that designates everything the series has done since 3D as irredeemably awful, the same destructive and hindering group think that gave rise to "Sonic's shitty friends."

Edited October 8, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Ivo the Egghog]

Once again, I'm not accusing you of saying anything you haven't said, so you don't need to be on the defensive like that. I was merely disagreeing. xP

Colors having an edge of ShtH in terms of characterization and voice acting means that it merely has better characterization and voice acting. However, neither these are necessarily products of the tone. Heroes has a similar tone as Colors, and both its characterization and voice acting suck.

The tangent you and I were personally on wasn't necessarily in reference to the quality of the tone (e.g. whether or not the atmosphere was pulled off well), but rather whether or not certain tones were particularly appropriate to begin with.

I think there's confusion in where I'm coming from, so I'm going to back up and elaborate: Tone/atmosphere is just one quality of the story, the same as characterization, cast, plotting, narrative, and setting are qualities of the story. While all of these elements ideally need to come together in a cohesive experience, it's not a hard rule that they all be similar all the time. In other words, you can have some emotional plot threads and revelations in a story that has an overall lighthearted or silly atmosphere. Western animation in general thrives off this model, and there's no rational film critic in the world who complained about Mufasa dying on the grounds of he's a cartoon lion in a cartoon world and thus death is disallowed because cartoons have to be silly all the time. This is stereotypical thinking that Disney himself shattered immediately in the 30s; I'd say we've moved well past that.

And while I thank you for the compliment, I'm personally not asking for narrative breakthroughs of Pixar caliber. =P It'd be nice if it were done well, but I don't think it's necessary. I'll reiterate, I just don't see why the series' narratives have to be bad Looney Tunes cartoons for six to eight hours, especially if they're going to shoehorn in apocalyptic destruction at the 11th hour anyway. A story like Unleashed, one where it's not inherently as deep as a Pixar toon, but still has a lot of silly stuff going on amidst the overarching problem of Dark Gaia isn't out of the series' hands regardless of the aesthetic of the characters and world.

The fact that such a narrative atmosphere has been decried so much by non-fans is, I think, simply another example of the melodramatic group think that designates everything the series has done since 3D as irredeemably awful, the same destructive and hindering group think that gave rise to "Sonic's shitty friends."

Alright, I gotcha now. I totally wasn't on the same page. I can see why some of my earlier comments may have been frustrating.

[Nepenthe]

=P No problem at all. I think I'm a bit notorious for not saying what I absolutely mean the first time.

[Unknownlight]

Can I ask something? What exactly does everyone like about Unleashed's story? I found the whole game (plot-wise) terribly bland, with the sole exception being the opening sequence.

[lounge]

that doesn't mean a story completely focused on nonsense is automatically bad because its lack of serious elements, and I'm referring to My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic

Oh you mean those annoying sigs everyone has. Just out of curiosity I looked up some videos and I'm not really sure what you mean by critically acclaimed. After 5 minutes I never cared to see another episode. I enjoy a good cartoon, but I don't get why you're listing this show as your source for a good story with any lack of serious elements. I felt embarrassed just watching it. How is this show different from any other cartoon for children? Unless you can show me a specific episode that's actually interesting to sit thru.

You compared Sonic to DBZ and Naruto before, isn't that making Sonic into another stereotype altogether? You hate one stereotype but are completely fine with the other? Double Standard much? I admit the stories should interesting again, but Sonic doesn't need to be held to the same standards as every Anime or Cartoon out there, because at the end of the day Sonic is his own series.

I wasn't comparing sonic to anime. I was saying how a good anime (maybe I should've said good show/movie in general) has all these elements and balances them well.

Can I ask something? What exactly does everyone like about Unleashed's story? I found the whole game (plot-wise) terribly bland, with the sole exception being the opening sequence.

That's exactly something I'd like to know.

[Soniman]

Can I ask something? What exactly does everyone like about Unleashed's story? I found the whole game (plot-wise) terribly bland, with the sole exception being the opening sequence.

This is true, its not until the game reaches Adabat that the plot finally picks up and becomes interestnig. Beforehand its mostly just find continent, fight boss, restore chaos emerald, repeat 5x.

[Marcello]

No he ain't Shounen. For one, he doesn't have some angsty backstory. He doesn't have any backstory at all. This can be seen as a good thing if utilised well. I'd rather that Sonic didn't really go too far into anime, or more specifically, the shounen direction.

You have no idea in hell what Shonen is, do you?

[Nepenthe]

Plot-wise, Unleashed does get very bland in the middle when it devolves into temple restoration without revisiting the game's main themes or having a lot of character interaction in the process. But the overall atmosphere of the game is cool. The buddy-buddy road trip aspect of the story along with the ever-looming presence of Dark Gaia allows it to juggle lightheartedness and seriousness without skewing too far in one direction, and in that way it feels Disney-ish. There's also a ton of world-building in the game too if you're willing to interact with the NPCs, and if you gain enjoyment from exploring and messing about in the hub worlds, it brings home Chip's little monologue. And the beginning and climax are also ace.

[Aquaslash]

Oh you mean those annoying sigs everyone has. Just out of curiosity I looked up some videos and I'm not really sure what you mean by critically acclaimed. After 5 minutes I never cared to see another episode. I enjoy a good cartoon, but I don't get why you're listing this show as your source for a good story with any lack of serious elements. I felt embarrassed just watching it. How is this show different from any other cartoon for children? Unless you can show me a specific episode that's actually interesting to sit thru.

The show had me from the first episode. Really any episode except the Gala episode is good to jump in. You need to see the rest of the episodes before getting into the Gala episode though.

Of course, this also requires the patience to sit through and watch the whole thing. I think it's a great standard for Sonic to strive to though

[Dark Qiviut]

Can I ask something? What exactly does everyone like about Unleashed's story? I found the whole game (plot-wise) terribly bland, with the sole exception being the opening sequence.

I love Unleashed's story due to these factors.

1. The GOOD characterization throughout. Each situation in the story actually fit the characters. The only exception is Chip's "hungry-or-I'd-rather-be-dead" speech. The brotherly relationship between Sonic and Chip fit and felt like it belonged, something that can't be said with the Sonic and Tails's communication and their Westernized characterizations especially in SCWii. The bantering between Eggman and Orbot ("Ergo") was hilarious and brought excellent character development for both. Orbot's sarcastic personality and Eggman's ego clash and create excellent conversations that fit, flowed, and was IN CHARACTER.

The TWO cases where Colors Wii's characterization trumped Unleashed's are the PA announcements and whenever the bad guys talked during the cutscenes. They were absolutely hilarious, and the PA announcements are by far some of the BEST writing in the series.

2. The humor. Cheesy humor isn't bad as long as they aren't overly used, out of character, and/or used as a crutch to keep the story cheery. The cheesiness wasn't excessive and, in many cases, are so subtle that they go by unnoticed. And the humor in Unleashed was actually INTELLIGENT. SCWi's humor choices and writing of the protagonists itself were sometimes so awkwardly forced that I laughed at the situation rather than laughed with it. Unleashed's humor whenever they came up had me laughing with the scene, such as the ice cream man with Chip and Professor Pickle's ranting at Eggman's horrible sandwich-making while captured. Unleashed didn't use humor as a crutch to keep the story cheery. Instead, the game uses the environment and casual conversations with the NPCs to reveal the humor.

3. The tones came when appropriate. SCWii actually did a decent job at this by making Eggman humorously evil, and the slice-of-life portrayal was rather cool. The problem with what SCWii here was how the urgent sequences tended to become dumbed down or immediately altered to keep it all lighthearted. Unleashed didn't do that by letting situations transition themselves, such as Eggman's conversations and getting hit by a rock thrown at him. And when shit hit the fan, it did.

Compared to Colors Wii, the writers in SU took advantage of the situations for the most part. That's why I consider Unleashed's story to be way better than SCWii.

Just out of curiosity I looked up some videos and I'm not really sure what you mean by critically acclaimed. After 5 minutes I never cared to see another episode. I enjoy a good cartoon, but I don't get why you're listing this show as your source for a good story with any lack of serious elements. I felt embarrassed just watching it. How is this show different from any other cartoon for children? Unless you can show me a specific episode that's actually interesting to sit thru.

My Little Pony shows how you can write a great story while keeping the tone cheery. The writing is witty and doesn't stereotype its audience. And by GOD, the characterization and character development are constantly excellent. They show how you can write a great story yet keep the tone lighthearted. If you ask me, ST's new writers can use MLP:FIM's writing as inspiration for their storybuilding. Edited October 8, 2011 by Dark Qiviut

[sonfan1984]

Most of Unleashed 'intelligent' humor came from Chip doing some really stupid shit in the background.

Also, how is Sonic and Chip brotherly relationship in Unleashed felt more natural then Sonic and Tails in Colors? Sonic and Tails are best friends and they've know each other for a long time while Sonic only met Chip and he tagged along cause Sonic promise Chip that he would get his memory back. Sorry, I don't get the same type of brotherly vibe from Sonic and Chip like I do with Sonic and Tails, the two shouldn't be compared.

Edited October 9, 2011 by sonfan1984

[Neon]

Most of Unleashed 'intelligent' humor came from Chip doing some really stupid shit in the background.

And it was far funnier than anything we saw in Colours.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Neon

[sonfan1984]

And it was far funnier than anything we saw in Colours.

Maybe to you. Eggman's lines alone is far better then anything Chip did in Unleashed. Atleast they're written better and I actually got a good laugh out of them.

Oh yeah, can't forget about Orbot and Cubot. Hell all the cutscenes that involves Eggman, Orbot and Cubot are pretty funny.

Edited October 9, 2011 by sonfan1984

[Neon]

Maybe to you. Eggman's lines alone is better then anything Chip did in Unleashed.

Nah, I prefer Chip.

[sonfan1984]

Nah, I prefer Chip.

And I perfer Eggman and his PA announements.

[Soniman]

The GOOD characterization throughout.

Not to me, Unleashed's characterization on the whole felt pretty bland to me, besides Eggman, Orbot, and maybe Chip, the other characters don't do or say anything very memorable at all.

And it was far funnier than anything we saw in Colours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lde7v5sWQZk&feature=related

HAHAHAHAHAHA,yeahfuckno.

Yeaha, your opinions and all that jazz, but every time I see that, I felt the need to shut off the game.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Soniman032-

[lounge]

My Little Pony shows how you can write a great story while keeping the tone cheery. The writing is witty and doesn't stereotype its audience. And by GOD, the characterization and character development are constantly excellent. They show how you can write a great story yet keep the tone lighthearted. If you ask me, ST's new writers can use MLP:FIM's writing as inspiration for their storybuilding.

Apparently looking at the comments on Youtube, a bunch of 20 yr old guys like watching this show. Is it because this is a meme that this became popular? I just watched episode 1, and I still don't see the appeal. It's very boring. I wasn't even laughing. Is it because of those big pony eyes? People keep saying there's witty humor for older audiences, I haven't seen any clever writing so far.

I still stand by what I said about suspense, drama and humor being what's needed for a good story and tone.

.

[Neon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lde7v5sWQZk&feature=related

HAHAHAHAHAHA,yeahfuckno.

I could counter that with the many unfunny, forced joke in Colours.

Although I do have a fond liking for Orbot and Cubot cutscenes. As well as Eggman's PA announcements.

[Kuzu]

Not to me, Unleashed's characterization on the whole felt pretty bland to me, besides Eggman, Orbot, and maybe Chip, the other characters don't do or say anything very memorable at all.

Yeah I have to agree with this both Sonic & Tails felt very meh in Unleashed.

And everybody, I see where this is going, I did say I will report if there's bitching.

[batson]

First of all, i dont think the Sonic stories should primarliy be comedies, which is what Colors felt like. The Sonic series was never meant to be a comedy series. Dramatic (but not overtly dramatic) adventure stories with comedy in them, that's what fit this series, not comedy stories with some grains of dramatic adventures.

In Colors, it felt like almost everything the characters said and did was something they did only because the writers needed them to do it in order for it all to lead into a joke. So the characters often seemed like mere vehicles for jokes rather than believable people with believable inner lives. Not that earlier Sonic games managed to make their characters sound and behave all that believable/relatable either, but that was due to other faults entirely...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lde7v5sWQZk&feature=related

HAHAHAHAHAHA,yeahfuckno.

Yeaha, your opinions and all that jazz, but every time I see that, I felt the need to shut off the game.

Wait...are we playing Cutscene Poker? I have a good hand!

I'll see you yours and raise you this cutscene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voYb8-PcIS4

Edited October 9, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[sonfan1984]

Wait...are we playing Cutscene Poker? I have a good hand!

I'll see you yours and raise you this cutscene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voYb8-PcIS4

I think a lot of us can agree that joke is pretty terrible.

[Nepenthe]

The cockiness makes up for the extended metaphor. That's one of my favorite scenes.

[Soniman]

The cockiness makes up for the extended metaphor. That's one of my favorite scenes.

Hope you're hungry!

One my favorite quotes from that game.

The diffrence between Colors bad jokes and Chips bad jokes is that Colors' I can brush off and move on. But Chip has this ability to leave a nasty taste in my mouth everytime I see him do stupid shit like that.