Is the tone of Colors really that bad?

[lounge]

Well him being super serious wasn't doing shit for him mate, and he was ridiculed for it. And no a good story needs to be structured well with rich characterization to back it up, it doesn't need drama or suspense to d that, which is the exact same reason MLP: FiM is so damn popular despite its lack of "Drama, and Suspense". And people like it because the series isn't trying to take itself so damn seriously anymore, its like the games we're going out of there way to make Sonic's world look as bleak as possible,

I never said I wanted him to be super serious. Just because their last attempt at bringing in and balancing serious matters failed doesn't mean it's impossible to do. And what's MLP: FiM?

I don't mind the occasional mood whiplash here and there, but I fail to see how making Sonic's world a crapsack one helps Sonic in the slightest.

Nobody's asking for a crapsack. I just want the stories to be interesting again. I don't care that people like that the series isn't trying to take itself seriously. Cause from what I've seen since Unleashed, I don't like it, and it's just favoring a stereotype.

[Nepenthe]

I don't think he ever said that.

And it is, for the most part, true. The only exception I can give is SA2

That statement is irrational because it specifically blames the tone of the story instead of the craftsmanship of the narrative. If SA2 is an exception for you, the entire position falls apart. It also falls apart when we have people here talking shit about Heroes' storytelling.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

Yeah, no.

That's the Mario excuse. There is no reason why a video game story cannot be on a par with Top-notch movies and literature. Striving for excellence in not only gameplay, but story as well is not a bad thing. Using "its a video game, it doesn't need a good story" as an excuse is bullshit. Sure they story itself doesn't need to always be melodramatic, but the quality of the writing, characterisation and dialogue must reach a standard.

"Its a game" simply doesn't cut it. Sonic the Hedgehog, Mario or otherwise.

I wasn't generalizing it that much, I was making a point that because its a video game(Therefore the focus should mostly on the gameplay), that it doesn't have to be the best story ever, Mario games as you said do completely fine despite not having any thing resembling a plot, I admit a decent plot should have everything you described but its never the main focus like it is something like movies.

[Sean]

They are joking around, you nitwit.

The writing isn't inconsistent, you just insist on being too thick-headed to understand it.

Diogenes there's no reason to act like a dick, so it'd be appreciated if you didn't stoop to such uncharacteristically immature flaming.

[Ivo the Egghog]

So?

And dark =/= not good. Wow, the 'all serious Sonic plots we've seen so far are bad, therefore they will always be bad' argument again? What kind of double standard is this?

What the hell? I'm not even implying that. I'm just trying to say I enjoyed Colors as a whole package and I think that's a safe road to stick with. Darkness isn't even a good way to express Sonic, it's just not in his character. Also, Sonic Team is not Pixar nor will they ever have the budget to produce a product of that caliber. I mean, I at least like to keep my expectations realistic for Sonic.

[Kuzu]

I never said I wanted him to be super serious. Just because their last attempt at bringing in and balancing serious matters failed doesn't mean it's impossible to do. And what's MLP: FiM?

Never said it was, but that doesn't mean a story completely focused on nonsense is automatically bad because its lack of serious elements, and I'm referring to My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, in less than a year it became an internet phenomenon, and is critically acclaimed despite the majority of the episodes being Slice of Life stories.

I don't care that people like that the series isn't trying to take itself seriously. Cause from what I've seen since Unleashed, I don't like it, and it's just favoring a stereotype.

And what the hell is wrong with that? You compared Sonic to DBZ and Naruto before, isn't that making Sonic into another stereotype altogether? You hate one stereotype but are completely fine with the other? Double Standard much? I admit the stories should interesting again, but Sonic doesn't need to be held to the same standards as every Anime or Cartoon out there, because at the end of the day Sonic is his own series.

[Exploder]

What the hell? I'm not even implying that. I'm just trying to say I enjoyed Colors as a whole package and I think that's a safe road to stick with. Darkness isn't even a good way to express Sonic, it's just not in his character. Also, Sonic Team is not Pixar nor will they ever have the budget to produce a product of that caliber. I mean, I at least like to keep my expectations realistic for Sonic.

OK, I apologize for that, but I have to object to the bolded part. Even assuming Sonic Team is somehow that poor (I doubt it) how is storytelling influenced by one's budget at all?

Edited October 8, 2011 by Exploder

[Nepenthe]

What the hell? I'm not even implying that. I'm just trying to say I enjoyed Colors as a whole package and I think that's a safe road to stick with. Darkness isn't even a good way to express Sonic, it's just not in his character. Also, Sonic Team is not Pixar nor will they ever have the budget to produce a product of that caliber. I mean, I at least like to keep my expectations realistic for Sonic.

There is more than enough precedent for anthropomorphic animals and strange creatures being taken seriously in comics, film, television shows, and literature for decades upon decades for Sonic to be privy to the same treatment. This "he's a cartoon" bit or "Sonic Team isn't Pixar" are not excuses. If nothing else, it's silly.

[Scar]

Sonic isn't an anime and should never be treated as such.

I would really, really, really hate it if they turned Sonic into a Shounen. Not appropriate for the character.

[Kuzu]

Sonic isn't an anime and should never be treated as such.

I would really, really, really hate it if they turned Sonic into a Shounen. Not appropriate for the character.

I honestly wouldn't be all that mad about it(Despite the abundance of Cliches, ugh) if it still kept the characterization and interactions close to how it is now, while mixing a few more action elements in there.

And for all intents and purpose he already is one.

There is more than enough precedent for anthropomorphic animals and strange creatures being taken seriously in comics, film, television shows, and literature for decades upon decades for Sonic to be privy to the same treatment. This "he's a cartoon" bit or "Sonic Team isn't Pixar" are not excuses. If nothing else, it's silly.

Well sorry to say this, but its kind of true: Sonic, for the most part, is fairly cartoony and wacky series, and while the occasional depth is appreciated here and there, it really shouldn't what the entire series is about, and it that exact reason Shadow and 06 are looked down upon, it was trying to turn the series into something else entirely and failed as a result.

[Soniman]

Sonic isn't an anime and should never be treated as such.

I would really, really, really hate it if they turned Sonic into a Shounen. Not appropriate for the character.

Didnt Sonic X's Sonic do nothing but sleep? I havent seen the anime in a long time, but thats basically all I can remember about Sonic's character.

Shadow and 06 are looked down upon, it was trying to turn the series into something else entirely and failed as a result.

While I agree that its kind of silly to expect incredibly deep, Pixar quality storytelling, I don't think just because Sega royally screwed up trying to have a serious story, that they should just abandon the concept all together. Again, I believe that the Adventure games were able to find a decent middle ground.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Soniman032-

[Scar]

I honestly wouldn't be all that mad about it(Despite the abundance of Cliches, ugh) if it still kept the characterization and interactions close to how it is now, while mixing a few more action elements in there.

And for all intents and purpose he already is one.

No he ain't Shounen. For one, he doesn't have some angsty backstory. He doesn't have any backstory at all. This can be seen as a good thing if utilised well. I'd rather that Sonic didn't really go too far into anime, or more specifically, the shounen direction.

[Exploder]

Well sorry to say this, but its kind of true: Sonic, for the most part, is fairly cartoony and wacky series, and while the occasional depth is appreciated here and there, it really shouldn't what the entire series is about, and it that exact reason Shadow and 06 are looked down upon, it was trying to turn the series into something else entirely and failed as a result.

The reason Shadow and 06's story had literally, absolutely, positively, 100% nothing to do with 'depth'.

You know what, I'm starting to suspect a lot of people seem to confuse 'depth' with 'grim dark' for some strange reason. And that, inversely, 'shallowness' means 'light-hearted', 'light-hearted = good' therefore 'shallowness = good' or something like that.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Exploder

[Ivo the Egghog]

There is more than enough precedent for anthropomorphic animals and strange creatures being taken seriously in comics, film, television shows, and literature for decades upon decades for Sonic to be privy to the same treatment. This "he's a cartoon" bit or "Sonic Team isn't Pixar" are not excuses. If nothing else, it's silly.

Gah, I should have never even said that anthropomorphic animal statement. It's not even the crux of my argument. I'm not trying to be facetious when I ask, but do you honestly think that the Sonic brand has to potential to put out a product of the same quality as a Pixar brand? When you factor in Sonic's tarnished brand name and the fact that no one takes him seriously anymore I just don't see how it's possible. I'm completely honest when I say I think Sonic Team lacks the creative talent to produce anything better than what we saw in Colors and what we will see in Generations. Not to say that it was bad, I've been trying to say I enjoy where the series is at now this entire time. I just think you guys might have your hopes a bit too high is all.

[Kuzu]

No he ain't Shounen. For one, he doesn't have some angsty backstory. He doesn't have any backstory at all. This can be seen as a good thing if utilised well. I'd rather that Sonic didn't really go too far into anime, or more specifically, the shounen direction.

Neither does Goku dude, the guy never angst once about his past.

I was referring more to character archtypes and the actiony tone:

Sonic resembles a lot of headstrong, cocky protagonist usually found in Shonen but good god did Heroes play it straighter than ever, almost every line is about friendship..ugh

Tails is more or less a child prodigy usually found again in Shonen

Knuckles is the hot headed frienemy of the protagonist who we know likes him but never admits

And do I even need to describe Shadow?...and I don't even have to use his game as an example.

I've watched a lot of Shonen and I can without a doubt say Sonic resembles most of them, like you said though he lacks the angsty backstory(And we thank god for that).

[Nepenthe]

Well sorry to say this, but its kind of true: Sonic, for the most part, is fairly cartoony and wacky series, and while the occasional depth is appreciated here and there, it really shouldn't what the entire series is about, and it that exact reason Shadow and 06 are looked down upon, it was trying to turn the series into something else entirely and failed as a result.

I would agree that it's cartoony, but the only time the games ever got significantly wacky was with things like the Riders series and Colors, far later into the series' lifespan. Most of the games before had a more grounded, adventurous tone. Colors is, in many ways, as much an outlier as ShtH is, not games SA1, SA2, or the Storybook series and classics.

Nonetheless, I think you're misconstruing me: I didn't say nor even imply the series should adopt the tone of something like Wolf's Rain and make it default, (in fact, I don't know why calls for adventurous plots automatically mean a person wants some grimdark shit). I'm saying if we were privy to plots that were, at the very least, like Kung Fu Panda, this wouldn't be some betrayal of the franchise. Having a moment where we can take Sonic seriously is not some leap of faith.

Gah, I should have never even said that anthropomorphic animal statement. It's not even the crux of my argument. I'm not trying to be facetious when I ask, but do you honestly think that the Sonic brand has to potential to put out a product of the same quality as a Pixar brand? When you factor in Sonic's tarnished brand name and the fact that no one takes him seriously anymore I just don't see how it's possible. I'm completely honest when I say I think Sonic Team lacks the creative talent to produce anything better than what we saw in Colors and what we will see in Generations. Not to say that it was bad, I've been trying to say I enjoy where the series is at now this entire time. I just think you guys might have your hopes a bit too high is all.

We're not discussing quality. We're discussing tone. And yes, I do think that the Sonic brand- with all of its reaching mythos, varied casts of superpowered characters, expansive locations and alternate universes, and robotic armadas - can do far more interesting things with its narrative than be a bad Looney Tunes cartoon for six hours to eight hours. Yes, I do think that the characters have the potential to invoke empathy from the audience. Yes, I do think that the story can turn serious or have serious moments. These aren't hallmarks of Pixar. They're hallmarks of fiction.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Scar]

Gah, I should have never even said that anthropomorphic animal statement. It's not even the crux of my argument. I'm not trying to be facetious when I ask, but do you honestly think that the Sonic brand has to potential to put out a product of the same quality as a Pixar brand? When you factor in Sonic's tarnished brand name and the fact that no one takes him seriously anymore I just don't see how it's possible. I'm completely honest when I say I think Sonic Team lacks the creative talent to produce anything better than what we saw in Colors and what we will see in Generations. Not to say that it was bad, I've been trying to say I enjoy where the series is at now this entire time. I just think you guys might have your hopes a bit too high is all.

No I don't expect a Pixar-quality story...(yet), but there is no reason for Sonic Team to strive for such a level of quality.

[Ivo the Egghog]

I've watched a lot of Shonen and I can without a doubt say Sonic resembles most of them, like you said though he lacks the angsty backstory(And we thank god for that).

But where Sonic lacks a angsty backstory, Shadow arrives to fill the void. Seriously, I don't even know how anyone can argue that Sonic hasn't been shonen-esque since the Adventure series came out.

[Kuzu]

I would agree that it's cartoony, but the only time the games ever got significantly wacky was with things like the Riders series and Colors, far later into the series' lifespan. Most of the games before had a more grounded, adventurous tone. Colors is, in many ways, as much an outlier as ShtH is, not games SA1, SA2, or the Storybook series and classics.

Never said the series started out wacky, I just said it was fairly wacky,what with all of Eggman's badnik design and whatnot, and even the Adventure games kept that.

Nonetheless, I think you're misconstruing me: I didn't say nor even imply the series should adopt the tone of something like Wolf's Rain and make it default, (in fact, I don't know why calls for adventurous plots automatically mean a person wants some grimdark shit). I'm saying if we were privy to plots that were, at the very least, like Kung Fu Panda, this wouldn't be some betrayal of the franchise. Having a moment where we can take Sonic seriously is not some leap of faith.

And I never said it was, I did say it was appreciated and made things interesting. In terms of plot both ShTH and Colors both kind of suck, but Colors kind has an edge with both characterization and voice acting which is probably why people like it more(I know its the reason I like it more) than anything before it, if all of the games had say the same kind of tone that the storybook games had(While having Colors` sense of self aware humor), then yes there would be harmony, so much harmony.

[Ivo the Egghog]

We're not discussing quality. We're discussing tone. And yes, I do think that the Sonic brand- with all of its reaching mythos, varied casts of superpowered characters, expansive locations and alternate universes, and robotic armadas - can do far more interesting things with its narrative than be a bad Looney Tunes cartoon for six hours to eight hours. Yes, I do think that the characters have the potential to invoke empathy from the audience. Yes, I do think that the story can turn serious or have serious moments. These aren't hallmarks of Pixar. They're hallmarks of fiction.

I'm sorry, I really do respect your opinion, but I just don't think we're gonna see eye to eye on this one. I don't really see what you mean when you say we aren't discussing quality though. Are we not discussing the quality of the tone? Personally, I love the Sonic mythos and pretty much everything about the series. As much as I'd LOVE to see some real creative breakthroughs for the series narrative wise, I just don't think it'll happen any time soon. I think Sonic and the cast of characters created around him are just perfect for the toonish tone of Sonic Colors and I support it. Also, having that toonish tone doesn't mean Sonic can't smash through robotic armadas, explore alternate universes, or react to a serious moment every once in a while.

However, I really do like the bolded statement there. I like the ambition you have for the franchise and honestly wouldn't be upset if you or someone like you had creative input on the series. In fact, I would be overjoyed. But in the here and now, I realistically feel we're getting the best quality product Sonic Team is capable of putting out on the market. I can see they're trying harder and harder with each game. This tone is working right now in my opinion so I say let them roll with it for a bit.

[Kuzu]

I'm sorry, I really do respect your opinion, but I just don't think we're gonna see eye to eye on this one. I don't really see what you mean when you say we aren't discussing quality though. Are we not discussing the quality of the tone? Personally, I love the Sonic mythos and pretty much everything about the series. As much as I'd LOVE to see some real creative breakthroughs for the series narrative wise, I just don't think it'll happen any time soon. I think Sonic and the cast of characters created around him are just perfect for the toonish tone of Sonic Colors and I support it. Also, having that toonish tone doesn't mean Sonic can't smash through robotic armadas, explore alternate universes, or react to a serious moment every once in a while.

I think what she means is, just because the tone is wackier than before doesn't mean we can't have a decent story about the characters without the presence of mood whiplash.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Shadic93

[Aquaslash]

I wouldn't just brush the jokes off like that, while some were cringe worthy, many of them also were quite funny.

"How about we make like Eggman's Hairline and recede?"

"Oh, really? Well good job on building a translator that helped us talk to the aliens, so we weren't running around the park looking like idiots. Oh, wait! That was me."

"Please don't lick the rides, people have been sitting on them, with their BUTTS!..."

"Critical System Failure, Critical System Failure, all passengers evacuate, the park is in need of severe reconstruction. This is all your fault."

"Well, Sonic. I've seen you doing a lot of things, but never talking to a pile of junk."

(I probably got some of those wrong, as I did them from memory.) Even though these jokes might not be that great to you, I actually liked a few of these scenes.

And that is why I love this game. Some pure gold in there.

let's be honest who chuckled at: "Let's you and me make like Eggman's hairline and recede"?

That was the best line in the game! I can't remember the last time a Sonic game was legitimately funny.

[Ivo the Egghog]

I think what she means is, just because the tone is wackier than before doesn't mean we can't have a decent story about the characters.

Oh, well shit. I'm all for that. But I don't think really think that's impossible with what Colors brought to the table. Colors focuses on Sonic, Eggman, and Tails. We know their story. I mean, we've been following their adventures for 20 years now. They can definitely implement more elements into the story while maintaining a "wacky" tone between the characters.

[Kuzu]

And that is why I love this game. Some pure gold in there.

That was the best line in the game! I can't remember the last time a Sonic game was legitimately funny.

I'd say the storybook games are also pretty chuckleworthy, but yeah aside from the occasional comment here and there the games largely lacked a sense of humor.

Oh, well shit. I'm all for that. But I don't think really think that's impossible with what Colors brought to the table. Colors focuses on Sonic, Eggman, and Tails. We know their story. I mean, we've been following their adventures for 20 years now. They can definitely implement more elements into the story while maintaining a "wacky" tone between the characters.

Eeyup.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Shadic93

[Soniman]

I think what she means is, just because the tone is wackier than before doesn't mean we can't have a decent story about the characters without the presence of mood whiplash.

I know its opinion and all, but who says people don't that Colors has a decent enough plot with some enjoyable moments?