SQUEEEEZE!

[Chibinuva]

No way. Clicking and double-tapping the left stick are both too finicky when you're moving at Sonic speeds. My setup's not so desperate for buttons that it needs to risk that kind of crossed-wires problem.

Touche. Oh, I'm thinking you should have light dash as well as homing attack. It's useful for getting past certain areas (preferably when they're optional, like the trail of rings on the wall in Kingdom Valley.)

[Diogenes]

I'm not a big fan of the light dash. It's basically a QTE leading into automation.

[Chaos Walker]

Left Stick: Movement

Right Stick: Camera

A: Jump/Homing Attack/Walljump

X: Brake/Skid-turn

Left Trigger: Run

Right Trigger: Crouch/Roll

[Diogenes]

I am liking alot, though I gotta ask: How does the crouch/ roll work? Is it crouch while still, roll while running?

[Scar]

Yes, exactly.

Increases acceleration and top speed when held. Without holding the button, Sonic's unassisted top speed is only modestly quick, sort of like in the Adventures, which is good for precise platforming. Hold the button and you're set for the faster-paced running portions of the game.

[Diogenes]

No. The boost is instant speed, the run button increases your acceleration. You don't instantly launch forward.

[Scar]

No. The boost is instant speed, the run button increases your acceleration. You don't instantly launch forward.

Hmm... OK fair enough. Which button would it be mapped to?

[Diogenes]

One of the triggers. Easy to hold, doesn't interfere with other actions.

[Chaos Walker]

It sounds silly at first... hold button to run better... but then I realize Mario has been doing this, and for a long time too. I like this idea. I like it alot. So long as the player is eased into the idea of having to do this when the situation calls for sprinting, (espeicaly since it will probably be mandatory during some parts) I think it would really work well. It doesn't clutter up the moveset, but rather solves the speed/ platforming problem intirely without any "oh, but the boost killed my family" business.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[Rusty Spy]

Personally I prefer the use of the boost from Advance 2, which activates when you run at top speed for a few seconds. It's pretty much just like that 'run' button suggested combined with the boost in that it increases your acceleration and top speed, but very significantly, letting you reach very fast speeds almost regardless of terrain. It's essentially the same thing suggested, but it's automatic under certain circumstances and more powerful. It's a more passive ability that gives an extra kick to speed sections and gives Sonic easier control over his speed, as it automatically cancels when you drop below a certain speed.

[Chaos Walker]

Personally I prefer the use of the boost from Advance 2, which activates when you run at top speed for a few seconds. It's pretty much just like that 'run' button suggested combined with the boost in that it increases your acceleration and top speed, but very significantly, letting you reach very fast speeds almost regardless of terrain. It's essentially the same thing suggested, but it's automatic under certain circumstances and more powerful. It's a more passive ability that gives an extra kick to speed sections and gives Sonic easier control over his speed, as it automatically cancels when you drop below a certain speed.

[Rusty Spy]

The problem with this is that you can't use it to create speed sections that arn't pretty much automated anyhow. For example, say Sonic is chased by an avalanche of boulders and he has to run fast to escape them. Assuming you are given time to get up to speed, you now cannot get hit by any boulders, or you will fall back to regular speed, and now it is too late to speed up again as the avalance has caught up with you. Unless the speed is triggered by the player when the situation demands, it requires linear hold-forward sections to display top speed. If not, top speed is only seen by expert players.

Well two things, one the boost is activated quicker if you have more momentum going, such as going downhill, and boost pads automatically activate boost mode. Then there's simply programming the avalanche to slow down a bit if Sonic slows down. They do this all the time.

Also, all speed sections are automated and hold forward fests. That's by their nature.

[Gaming Misfit]

As a fan of all 3 eras I'm satisfied with any play style, but I agree that momentum could use some more notice. With that said, I like the boost feature, but I think it should be a bit more restricted. Unleashed might have taken it too far. Colors handled it better IMO.

[Chaos Warp]

As a fan of all 3 eras I'm satisfied with any play style, but I agree that momentum could use some more notice. With that said, I like the boost feature, but I think it should be a bit more restricted. Unleashed might have taken it too far. Colors handled it better IMO.

I agree with you and this is pretty much my point of view on all the different playstyles.

Anyway, to mix all the elements like Chaos Walker is saying, all we need to do is mix all the different playstyles. If we had rolling and some momentum mechanics from the classics, more open level design from the Adventures (the 1st in particular), and a more limited boost (so rolling would not be redundant) for some Unleashed-style speed, we would have, in my opinion, a perfect mix of all elements.

[Chaos Walker]

Also, all speed sections are automated and hold forward fests. That's by their nature.

You shouldn't have to unecesarly complicate things like that. On one hand you can program the avalanche to slow down. On the other you could just have a button that makes Sonic that fast. Having it be automatic also means it might kick in during the middle of a platforming segment, throwing you somewhere you didn't want to be.... like a hole. I don't want to be punished for having a particularly fluid playthrough. The idea behind a run button(Or Sprint button as I'd rather call it) is that it loosens up Sonic's movement like in Unleashed/Colors/Genearations. This allows developers to make the level design quickly switch between precise platforming and speedy gameplay. To put it simply:It's the easiest fix. We gain platforming, and lose no speed without any random complications.

Edit: The sprint button is pretty much an unlimited boost without the invincibility. It alows you to switch from Sonic Adventure Precesion to the modern breakneck speed.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[Rusty Spy]

You shouldn't have to unecesarly complicate things like that.

How does it complicate things? There'd be pretty much no difference with or without the boost, only speed sections would be faster and more intense without sacrificing control. The boost mode revolves around the same idea of the sprint button only it's automatic and more rewarding for maintaining speed.

Believe me, play Advance 2, it works really well and flows greatly.

Having it be automatic also means it might kick in during the middle of a platforming segment, throwing you somewhere you didn't want to be.... like a hole. I don't want to be punished for having a particularly fluid playthrough.

Impossible, the boost only activates when you're running at max speed without slowing down for a few seconds. If you somehow manage to activate boost mode when platforming, you're probably plummeting into a pit already. If you ever play Advance 2 or 3, this NEVER happens, EVER. Edited September 18, 2011 by Black Spy

[Chaos Walker]

Having it be automatic also means it might kick in during the middle of a platforming segment, throwing you somewhere you didn't want to be.... like a hole. I don't want to be punished for having a particularly fluid playthrough.

Hours after typing it, that does sound like a dumb nitpick. But yes, I've played Sonic advance 3, and the autoboost only kicked in when the level was designed so that you could hold right with reckless abandon.

The problem we are trying to address here is having Sonic switch from tight controls to loose ones whenever the situation demands. Doing this automaticaly is wrenching control from the player and also seperating Sonic into two forms of gameplay like he is now. (which isn't the worst thing in the world) Admitedly yes, the advance boost mechanic would work if you designed the speedy areas to accomodate it, but it would be by far simpler to simply have a button that lets you go from Adventure handling to Unleashed instead of trying to figure out how to make the game work around the advanced variant.

We are trying to do something bold here. We are not trying to translate the classics into 3D anymore. Doing that would only mean taking the adventure formula and working in pinball mechanics. No, we are going a step farther. We are trying to incorporate modern speed sections into classic level design by replacing the old "hold right" areas with interactive speed zones. Why? Blame a picky fanbase (I am guilty of said pickyness).

Edited September 19, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[sayi50]

Well, so far I like your brainstorming and I think I want to add some stuff to it. In other words, I want your tornado to carry my car.

I'm gonna touch an old question here. Does rolling of the ramp counts as a platforming? I say yes and no.

No, because if there is ONLY the ramp after rolling downhill and no other choices, it is automation and thus it's not platforming. It's just adding spice.

Yes, because if there is a splitting path right before the ramp like let's say... There is a path that you can JUMP onto which makes you jump over some platforms to a platform that is to your left or right... With precision I might add. Or there might be a sideway that goes left/right to a more scenery/platforming/slower route.

Now you might ask, does taking a side turn in a racing game makes it platforming? NO!

As I said, you turn right/left eventually but you have to use jumping or homing attacking to get past... More so let me give you a "Modern" example of platforming. Remember the first rail in Green Hill Zone Modern Gameplay? Right before the rails, you hit a red ring to boost you over to a ledge with a spring. My point is, you have to JUMP to reach that red ring. If you don't, you fall to a lower route. Now in Green Hill Zone you fall to a lower route. But in Eggmanland... You simply die.

You might say that this is just a PIECE of platforming, but with the speed Sonic has in Generations it's impossible to keep your reflexes ready for platforming any more.

Now for the car that I want your tornado to carry.

Since you guys are eliminating the boost... Well your "sprinting/running" will not be as fast as boost. You can easily impletement that kind of platforming segments but a little longer...

Here is an example for your moveset:

Sonic is running through Green Hill or Straight Line Zone for all I care.

He comes to a path that has 3 splits.

1. Bottom side with easy normal jumping no pits and all very straight

2. Left side with the first platform being on the ground but higher than the bottom side.

3. Right side that only can be reached by spindash jumping to get enough speed for it.

Now here are the ways to get past

1. Sonic normally falls down and jump on the platforms to climb his way up

2. Sonic jumps on the first platform and tries to make his way through other platforms. Falling down means death since the other ones are over bottomless pits. More expertish route with more emphasis on points and items since getting an S-rank should not be based on speed but speed and points like SA2

3. Sonic stops, moves the camera to the right platform, moves himself a little bit to center himself and the camera. Starts spindash revving. Let's go, immediately jumps and holds jump. Perhaps you can make it so he HAS to Jump Dash too. And then he takes a much more sceneric or show off path with a 1UP and 50 rings or so. Perhaps a Special Ring for Special Stages.

Or you can make the 3rd path so you have to speed jump... Like you spin dash jump to the first platform, after that you have to jump without slowing down to make it to the next and so on. That way you can keep the "Sonical"/"Sonicy" speed and keep the platforming.

Oh and about the Special Stages. I always wanted to see them as this.

Sonic gets an Emerald but the Emerald doesn't see him as his "Master" so refuses to give him his power. Sonic has to go into the Emerald's "Special Stage" to "conquer" the emerald which means getting an "Emerald" INSIDE an "Emerald" like reaching it's core so he becomes the Emerald's "Master". In fact I'm planning to use this in the fan game I'm making.

Each Emerald's Special Stage would be different... Like the Blue Chaos Emerald requests you to race against an "impending wall of doom" and get to the Emerald inside the Special Stage before the wall of doom gets you. Or the yellow one wants you to get a LOT of rings that are placed in horribly, HORRIBLY painful places.

*Looks at the posts he made*

I made 3 posts today and I'm supposed to be a lurker... Damn you Sonic fanbase you even started affect ME!

*shrugs and goes back to whatever he was doing before*

Edit: You have no idea how many typos I fix'd... And I think there are still more. Damn you being sleepy!

Edited September 19, 2011 by sayi50

[Chaos Walker]

Our tornado has room for more cars than our minds can even begin to comprehend.... whatever that means.

I agree that a ramp at the bottom of a hill that you are forced to use is NOT platforming. On the other hand, if you see if a high platform off to the side with a power up that you can't normaly reach, using a spindash on it is definetly platforming. In the same way though, having hold right/forward areas is not really speedy gameplay, hence why I am pushing for the sprint button.

Sonic is running through Green Hill or Straight Line Zone for all I care.

He comes to a path that has 3 splits.

1. Bottom side with easy normal jumping no pits and all very straight

2. Left side with the first platform being on the ground but higher than the bottom side.

3. Right side that only can be reached by spindash jumping to get enough speed for it.

Now here are the ways to get past

1. Sonic normally falls down and jump on the platforms to climb his way up

2. Sonic jumps on the first platform and tries to make his way through other platforms. Falling down means death since the other ones are over bottomless pits. More expertish route with more emphasis on points and items since getting an S-rank should not be based on speed but speed and points like SA2

3. Sonic stops, moves the camera to the right platform, moves himself a little bit to center himself and the camera. Starts spindash revving. Let's go, immediately jumps and holds jump. Perhaps you can make it so he HAS to Jump Dash too. And then he takes a much more sceneric or show off path with a 1UP and 50 rings or so. Perhaps a Special Ring for Special Stages.

Though... could you explain exactly how that setup incorporates using, or not using a sprint button?

[sayi50]

Basically you don't have to hold the run/sprint button for path 1

You must NOT hold the run/sprint button for path 2 or you'll probably miss your precision jump

You MUST hold the run/sprint button for path 3 since the distance between the platforms are wide and you need some "speed" to cover it up. Thus you manage to satisfy everyone.

But the thing is... A corporation like SEGA probably can't do this, because the level desingers have to think like this FOR EVERY LEVEL without making it feel repeated and they have to manage a deadline too... Fan game makers on the other hand...........

I edited my first post a lot, so you might want to take another quick skip through it... Though all I want to say it this quote for 3rd path

Or you can make the 3rd path so you have to speed jump... Like you spin dash jump to the first platform, after that you have to jump without slowing down to make it to the next and so on. That way you can keep the "Sonical"/"Sonicy" speed and keep the platforming.

Edited September 19, 2011 by sayi50

[Soniman]

I certainly won't deny that it's short. And yes, it's simple, but isn't platforming at its heart incredibly simple? I mean what kind of complex platforming are you looking for in a Sonic game? And on that note, what inherently makes certain platforming to be "Sonicy?" Because I can think of several several several examples from the beloved Genesis games of very simple platforming, lots of which even have Sonic not using momentum or speed at all, but simply jumping from a platform to the next.

This, its like Sonic hasa to be in a ball and let momentum be his guide constantly in order for it to be "Sonic" platforming, which isnt the case.

[Chaos Walker]

Basically you don't have to hold the run/sprint button for path 1

You must NOT hold the run/sprint button for path 2 or you'll probably miss your precision jump

You MUST hold the run/sprint button for path 3 since the distance between the platforms are wide and you need some "speed" to cover it up. Thus you manage to satisfy everyone.

But the thing is... A corporation like SEGA probably can't do this, because the level desingers have to think like this FOR EVERY LEVEL without making it feel repeated and they have to manage a deadline too... Fan game makers on the other hand...........

I edited my first post a lot, so you might want to take another quick skip through it... Though all I want to say it this quote for 3rd path

Edited September 19, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[sayi50]

Well it would be taxing on the level desinger and not taxing at all at the same time... See, it's like this:

Each level is build off from a template like this

There is a main path

There is one or two long slow/precision side path which begins at the middle of the map and joins to the main path around the end of it.

There is few short high speed platforming paths scattered everywhere

If you base all of your maps around this and manage to use it sparingly, your 7 levels. Or Zones should not be that different from each other. As for the 2 acts of each zone, just reverse the balance of the systems. Like if you used precision platforming more at the first act, make it so that there is more high speed ones or almost no side paths at all at act 2... For the next zone make the WHOLE zone precision platforming. And for the third make it ALL based on High Speed platforming. The possiblities are endless. Plus since every zone has few special gimmicks to them. They really don't look like replicas that much if you utilize said gimmicks at the right time.

Hell for the epicness of it. Go with a zone that has NO main path, you have to choose either the precise platforming or speed one. That would work for a Eggman base level since it's the last and most of the time the hardest map. Being a little cruel is nice.

The problem is getting map feedback. It's easy to change a map or two compared to whole physics of a game. As I said, this is hard for a corporation but not that much of a problem for fan games since they can release demos just because they changed the title screen and shit.

And I know this will be taking it overboard but take a look at it like this...

Let's say you are a level desinger at Sonic Team right? So you basically know that you are gonna make a Sonic level even though if the new game hasn't even decided yet. So logically thinking you would have some ideas around your head anyway, since you've been making Sonic levels and know how it flows basically.

Edited September 19, 2011 by sayi50

[Chaos Walker]

Well... this topic is pretty much over unless someone wants to argue that the boost is absolutely necesary, or that a sprint button is no good (even though it's something that has been in use in other games for a long time).

[Rusty Spy]

The problem we are trying to address here is having Sonic switch from tight controls to loose ones whenever the situation demands.

Thing is though, the situations where Sonic would need looser controls are on speed sections, which makes the boost mode more convenient.

Doing this automaticaly is wrenching control from the player

No it really isn't, the boost mode isn't anything that players don't have complete control over.

and also seperating Sonic into two forms of gameplay like he is now.

That is just completely untrue, as it doesn't change the gameplay in any way. That's almost exactly like saying speed sections separate Sonic into two forms of gameplay.

Again, the boost mode is very much like a sprint button, but here's a bombshell that highlights a big difference between them;

With the boost mode being automatic, and thus only viable in speed sections, most other areas where you'd want to pick up speed would require you to utilize the spindash and rolling!