SQUEEEEZE!

[Nepenthe]

To me, no. You have to have primary control over the initiation of the jump, its speed, and its height. Rolling has generally left you powerless over these things; press down before an incline and off you go. You can move in the air yes, but you're not actually making the jump yourself. The physics are mostly doing that for you. Honestly, what's the difference between rolling off a ramp specifically designed to throw you onto solid ground and a ramp in Burnout that does the same exact thing?

Edited September 14, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Chaos Walker]

To me, no. You have to have primary control over the initiation of the jump, its speed, and its height. Rolling has generally left you powerless over these things

Ah, but let's not think of this soley in terms of a linear rollercoaster type set up. When things are set up more like a skate park, rolling can truly shine as a real mode of platforming. Platforming shouldn't be described solely as jumping to reach a destination. When Bee Mario flies, has he ceased platforming? Of course not, he is simply using a new method of vertical exploration. In the same way, if the rolling instances are not simply ramps at the bottom of hills then they provide a legitimate platforming experience.

That would be great. While I liked being able to climb/walk on ledges I hated having to do it so slowly. They should do that, along with adding a walljump akin to that of a triangle jump, but allows you to run longer (and possibly indefinitely,) at higher speeds. Here are the controls for a parkour-style Sonic game (for Xbox 360.)

Movement: Left analog stick

Camera Movement: Right analog stick

Jump: tap A button

Homing Attack: jump then press A while locked onto an enemy

Spindash: When dash gauge is full, press X to do a spindash and grind through enemies.

Aerial Spindash: When dash gauge is full, jump and then hold X to do an aerial spindash. Use left analog stick to move Sonic up, down, left, and right while using this (automatic acceleration,) hitting walls to maintain speed and bounce around corners.

Wall Jump: Press A after jumping to jump onto a wall edge and run along it. Use up on the control pad to jump onto the ledge above, down to let go of the ledge, and A again to jump off the wall (onto another if close enough.)

Wall Dash: Do a wall jump, then press X to spindash along a wall.

Bound Jump: After jumping, hold B to do a bound jump. This will increase your height the more you use it.

Spin Kick: While moving backwards, press B to do a spin kick, which makes Sonic do a back flip high into the air.

Wall Bounce: Jump, and then press Y to jump towards and bounce off a wall into the air.

Rail grind: Jump on a rail to grind on it. Hit X to gain speed, and use RB or LB to switch rails.

Whoooah there pardner. Do we need all those buttons? I suppose it's not the worst thing in the world if the gameplay is good, but I really think we can do it all with the analog sticks, and two buttons. Here, let me show you how I would set it up:

Walk/Run:Left analog. Sonic begins walking, and then accelerates to top speed.

Crouch:Press in left analog stick. Pressing crouch while running causes Sonic to begin breaking to a stop.

Camera:Right analog. Pressing in the stick snaps the camera.

Jump:A button.

Homing attack:A in the air. If no enemies are present, Sonic simply performs a small air dash.

Spin attack:While running, holding the X button causes Sonic to start rolling. While rolling he begins to decelarate. At top speeds rolling allows Sonic to drift. Releasing the X button puts Sonic back in running position.

Spindash: While stopped and crouched, tapping the X button revs up a spindash.

Wall Bounce:Press X while Sonic is in the air next to a wall to perform a disguised wall jump

Using the analog stick, a jump button, and an action button, I got all of Sonic's major moves. I don't want to go any farther because I'm not sure what other moves Sonic really needs. To be honest I'm pefectly satisfied with this moveset. The only other thing I could think of is this:

Trick: When the trick icon flashes on the top of the screen, press either of the bumpers or triggers for Sonic to enter a QTE sequence of the A and X buttons to peform parkour moves. The trick button is context sensitive, and has different results depending on where you are prompted to do it. Of course it doesn't only have to be limited to parkour, it may also be for showing off in the middle of a very big jump to get bonus points/rings.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[Diogenes]

Crouch:Press in left analog stick. Pressing crouch while running causes Sonic to begin breaking to a stop.

I really don't like the idea of putting things on the left stick click in a Sonic game. I'm not a big fan of it in slower-paced games either, and it's only going to be worse when you're moving fast.

[Chaos Walker]

I really don't like the idea of putting things on the left stick click in a Sonic game. I'm not a big fan of it in slower-paced games either, and it's only going to be worse when you're moving fast.

I always thought it felt rather intuitive. Pushing the forward means going forward, pushing left means going left, so I logicaly pushing down means going down. I only wish that it was possible to use all six axis, but pushing up is kind of impossible. It's a single button that seves many, many functions, and taking full advantage of it would help things stay simple. Also, i'm using it as a break. You are supposed to stop pushing whatever direction you were going anyhow. Think of pushing down on it to stop as the anit-thesis of pushing forward to run. My original idea was simply pushing the opposite direction to break, but that would mean changing how spindash works.

[Indigo Rush]

From my understanding, in terms of parkour, the only thing that could really work for Sonic is wall jumping, ledge grabbing and possibly wall running, and with the newer 3D games, two of these are already present, although wall-jumping has been exclusively 2D and wall-running has been exclusively 3D, and automated at that. I dunno, I've always thought it'd be a pain in the tush to figure out at what angle and at what velocity and at what kind of wall would be appropriate to initiate these moves in 3D on your own, and how much control you'd have.

It really depends on the kind of pacing you're going for. If you want something slower than what Sonic games actually are, then it'd be much easier to do these kinds of moves without having to stop, but Sonic by his very nature is a runner, so if we want parkour platforming in 3D, we have to make some amendments to the concept.

And... well, Unleashed did just that, although it could be refined somehow. Wall-jumping could be done a little more in 3D, and it'd be nice to see some more wall-running, and I think ledge-grabbing could be useful too. But for the most part, the parkour that people want is already there, just not as emphasized as running. I agree that we could use more platforming, but not too much, ya know?

Edited September 15, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Diogenes]

Also, i'm using it as a break. You are supposed to stop pushing whatever direction you were going anyhow.

But in the heat of the moment, it's easy to mess it up. I really see no benefit from putting it on the stick; using 3 buttons is not excessive, and it prevents any sort of crossed wires like the SA2 bounce/light dash issue.

[Nepenthe]

Ah, but let's not think of this soley in terms of a linear rollercoaster type set up. When things are set up more like a skate park, rolling can truly shine as a real mode of platforming. Platforming shouldn't be described solely as jumping to reach a destination. When Bee Mario flies, has he ceased platforming? Of course not, he is simply using a new method of vertical exploration. In the same way, if the rolling instances are not simply ramps at the bottom of hills then they provide a legitimate platforming experience.

Bee Mario's flight is merely a variation on regular jumping. You have control over both its initiation, its duration, its direction- all of these things. You can even start and stop it during to save energy if you so choose. But when you go down off any sort of ramp in a Sonic game, whether it's a small skateboard-esque half-pipe or something like Hydrocity's spiraling drops, the general idea is to allow gravity and momentum to get you somewhere, not your own platforming prowess. The amount of control you have over this sans the mere initiation of it by moving the character off the ramp and maybe some mid-air movement is minimal, meaning actual gameplay and interaction is negligent and sometimes non-existent for the overwhelming majority of using a ramp. You are pretty powerless during the roll, ergo I don't consider using the roll to be platforming.

Again, I think I ask a poignant question: What is the major difference between rolling off a ramp in a classic Sonic game and driving over a ramp in an arcade racer? Are you actually platforming in an arcade racer when there's an obligatory ramp there, even more so if you can move your car in mid-air to aim for specific areas ala Crash Team Racing? Then comes the issue of automation because there's undoubtedly some automation during a few classic ramping segments. Can platforming be automated in any way? If so, what ways? What are we to infer about future titles assuming automation is allowed?

To me, it's simple. For platforming to even exist, you need a manual jumping mechanic and level design that tests that jumping mechanic through a variation of vertically-oriented design and pitfalls. The mechanic doesn't even have to be the straight classic Mario jump either. You can have a jump that lasts in the air like flight, a jump that only works in contact with specific objects or items, long jumps, double jumps, wall jumps, a mid-air boost, hell, even a swinging mechanic like in Bionic Commando: Anything that allows you to leave the ground of your own volition at any time. On the other hand, rolling is specifically designed primarily for ground contact and thus relies on the ground and the physics- not the player- to allow you to get the most use out of it.

So yeah, rolling is a really fun way to move, but to me it's not a platforming mechanic much less an unorthodox one.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Chibinuva]

I really don't like the idea of putting things on the left stick click in a Sonic game. I'm not a big fan of it in slower-paced games either, and it's only going to be worse when you're moving fast.

Same here. I get the logic behind it, but I don't really like having to push the analog buttons, besides the fact that you left out the trigger, X, Y, and shoulder buttons (possibly for other moves.) Also, for jump maybe instead of just regular jump and bounce jump you could make it more like Secret Rings where you hold to charge up a jump and then release, allowing you to do higher or lower jumps. And for a quick jump, they could use an animation to make him vault over an obstacle just like in parkokur. If they did that, used a different button for crouch (using either the left stick button or tapping then holding the left stick to sprint,) and added some sort of wall jump, that would be awesome. (maybe like the ones used in UnWiished, but in 3-D sections.)

[Chaos Walker]

But in the heat of the moment, it's easy to mess it up. I really see no benefit from putting it on the stick; using 3 buttons is not excessive, and it prevents any sort of crossed wires like the SA2 bounce/light dash issue.

[Nepenthe]

The ramp in Sonic is for getting to somewhere you couldn't have by other means. We are simply running on different defenitions of patforming. I would even consider Link using his grappling hook to cross a gap a platforming maneuver.

[Chaos Walker]

Also, I considered a grappling hook a viable platforming mechanic because it's mechanic you have primary control of, not the physics and landscape.

[Nepenthe]

I should've explained better: A grappling hook is basically a variation of the basic jumping mechanic which allows you to leave the ground primarily on your own volition. Rolling in all of its variations isn't jumping in any way, shape, or form, yet jumping is what you need for platforming to exist. All rolling allows you to do is cover ground in a unique way and gain another defense, but the fact that the ground itself may throw you somewhere while rolling doesn't mean rolling itself suddenly counts as a jump, otherwise you would logically have to admit that ramps in racing games are jumping mechanics too.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Diogenes]

otherwise you would logically have to admit that ramps in racing games are jumping mechanics too.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Diogenes

[Nepenthe]

Even if ramps were a significant part of some hypothetical racing experience, you'd still be hardpressed to call it a platformer because ramps alone and the ability to just run off them do not make a platforming experience. Also, Auto Jumping is certainly a jumping mechanic, but my above questions about automation's place in platform obstacles and maneuvers return, so I'd say no on a technical basis. Regardless, I thought the 3D Zelda games were considered action-adventure dungeon crawlers anyway. =/

But to dredge up old S4 arguments for fun, I imagine there's still significant opposition to calling an ascending series of enemies a platforming obstacle and subsequently denial of Homing Attack's status as a platforming maneuver. But if one considers the Auto Jump a true platforming mechanic, why not the Homing Attack too?

[Chaos Walker]

Let's put this to rest. Nobody means for Sonic to never jump again. Rolling is simply a mechanic that is meant to augment the platforming experience. No Sonic game put ramps in front of every hole in the ground.

[Chibinuva]

That's true. The problem is that it has to be in that "click" zone. If you could press down the stick from any position, it would be much more effective.

If things can be simpler, they should be. It took all of ten minutes for my little sisters to figure out Sonic Adventure. They couldn't handle the first level of Sonic Colors. If more buttons are absolutely necesary, then fine. If I have to use more, I would keep it to two face buttons, and the bumpers or triggers. Your fingers are always there, and so using them is intuitive.

There is ONE way that having extra moves on the other buttons isn't overwhelming, and that's by intoducing them later on. Either not requiring certain moves in the early levels, or adding them in as upgrades/gained abilities.

The classics did it fine. Tapping the button was a small jump. Holding it was a long one. It does the same thing, but more responsive in a tight situation.

1. I do think maybe some of the abilities should be earned, and that there should be simple controls, i just don't want the joystick buttons to be used (unless they add a sprint mechanic, but that could be either double-tapping the left stick, or moving it while clicking the button.) You could easily just switch those buttons to the trigger buttons, which is what I would suggest.

2. Yes, but I prefer the Secret Rings version because you can jump higher, and because you could do a backflip. If they make it closer to the classics physics-wise, but with a backflip, then I'd be fine. (it would need to be somewhat different anyways, given that Secret Rings played a lot like a car, with automatic acceleration and only breaking/reverse and left and right control.)

Also, why I'm on the subject, who would like to see a Kinect Sonic game (and I mean an actual one not another riders, as much fun as those were.) Also, a game in first-person view would be, interesting to say the least, particularly using spindash or going through loops. (though they'd probably just use the boost.)

[Chaos Walker]

The secret rings version was used also used as a break, something that was necesary for such a fast paced game. ... We probably could use a break move, but I'd rather it wasn't incorporated into the jump. Is there another move we could incorporate the break into? My first thought was spindash, but then using the break would only mean being flung the second you let go of it.

And a backflip with classic jump is as simple as pressing the jump button while he's breaking.

I wonder if a duck button is even worth including... it made sense on a D-pad or analog stick, but giving it it's own button seems rediculous.

[Diogenes]

Is there another move we could incorporate the break into?

Skid-turn. Ditch the drift, make it so Sonic can take those kinds of turns without it, use the skid-turn for really tight turns. Hold the button to go into a skid, at which point you can change the direction you're facing. Hold forward and release the button to dash off with some of your speed (less the longer you hold the skid). Or, don't hold forward and just skid to slow down/stop.

I wonder if a duck button is even worth including... it made sense on a D-pad or analog stick, but giving it it's own button seems rediculous.

Why? Plenty of games have 'em. 3D Mario just isn't the same without the long jump...

[Chaos Walker]

Skid-turn. Ditch the drift, make it so Sonic can take those kinds of turns without it, use the skid-turn for really tight turns. Hold the button to go into a skid, at which point you can change the direction you're facing. Hold forward and release the button to dash off with some of your speed (less the longer you hold the skid). Or, don't hold forward and just skid to slow down/stop.

You mean turn the slide into a combination of a break and a drift move? I approve. Though come to think of it... why not take it a step farther? Let's turn the skid/break into a spindash rev. I think that would really fit here, and would kill two birds with one stone.

Why? Plenty of games have 'em. 3D Mario just isn't the same without the long jump...

The last Mario game I played was Super Mario Galazy 2, and it bored me before I could finish it because I realized it was Super Mario Galaxy+Yoshi. Could you give me a refresher on Mario's moveset?

Edited September 17, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[Diogenes]

You mean turn the slide into a combination of a break and a drift move? I approve. Though come to think of it... why not take it a step farther? Let's turn the skid/break into a spindash rev. I think that would really fit here, and would kill two birds with one stone.

[Chaos Walker]

Hrm... perhaps the thing to do is get down a list of abilities that Sonic needs to use, and then figure out which ones work together as one move.

Jump+Homing attack is one example of two moves that are mapped to one button. The other move is active in a different context, but is related to the first so it feels natural.

Right now we are looking at: Drifting, crouching, sliding (though it now reminds me of the function SA2 somersault), rolling, wall jumping, and spindash. Any other moves that Sonic absolutely needs?

[Chibinuva]

Hrm... perhaps the thing to do is get down a list of abilities that Sonic needs to use, and then figure out which ones work together as one move.

Jump+Homing attack is one example of two moves that are mapped to one button. The other move is active in a different context, but is related to the first so it feels natural.

Right now we are looking at: Drifting, crouching, sliding (though it now reminds me of the function SA2 somersault), rolling, wall jumping, and spindash. Any other moves that Sonic absolutely needs?

Check, check and check. If you already have spindash, it makes boost pretty much redundant, so that won't be needed. I just really want him to have some sort of backflip attack (like attacking while walking backwards in Black Knight or jumping while walking backwards in Secret Rings.) If they added that (especially if you could backflip into enemies and bounce upwards off of them to gain extra height,) then that's pretty much it. But that's more of a personal want than a necessity. Oh, and they need Sonic's most powerful move, Super Sonic. As for super sonic's moves, he'd most likely fly (assuming the boss takes place in space or something of the like and that super sonic is required and only used in the final boss,) and have boost instead of spindash. Perhaps (if used throughout levels like S4 or Colours,) he could have some sort of flight, preferably a double-jump or something like Knuckle's gliding. What moves would be used for Super Sonic though?

[Diogenes]

I think sliding can be safely ditched; sliding under things has never been particularly compelling gameplay, and if for some reason we really want it, it can be added to the roll.

The way I'd do it:

Jump/Homing Attack/Walljump

Crouch/Roll (with spindash as either hold crouch or crouch+jump)

Brake/Skid-turn

Run

Camera controls(?)

In terms of button layout (using a 360 controller):

Left Stick: Movement

Right Stick: Camera

A: Jump/Homing Attack/Walljump

X: Brake/Skid-turn

Left Trigger: Run

Right Trigger: Crouch/Roll

That leaves the two bumpers and two face buttons for anything else we might need. We could probably dedicate a button to transforming into Super Sonic (Y would probably be my choice). Maybe use the bumpers to set the camera behind the player...or maybe put that on the right stick click.

[Chibinuva]

I think sliding can be safely ditched; sliding under things has never been particularly compelling gameplay, and if for some reason we really want it, it can be added to the roll.

The way I'd do it:

Jump/Homing Attack/Walljump

Crouch/Roll (with spindash as either hold crouch or crouch+jump)

Brake/Skid-turn

Run

Camera controls(?)

In terms of button layout (using a 360 controller):

Left Stick: Movement

Right Stick: Camera

A: Jump/Homing Attack/Walljump

X: Brake/Skid-turn

Left Trigger: Run

Right Trigger: Crouch/Roll

That leaves the two bumpers and two face buttons for anything else we might need. We could probably dedicate a button to transforming into Super Sonic (Y would probably be my choice). Maybe use the bumpers to set the camera behind the player...or maybe put that on the right stick click.

That could work. Also, if you put run as either left stick click (while moving it,) or double-tap (like sprinting normally is,) it frees up the left trigger (which could then be used to center the camera.)

[Diogenes]

No way. Clicking and double-tapping the left stick are both too finicky when you're moving at Sonic speeds. My setup's not so desperate for buttons that it needs to risk that kind of crossed-wires problem.