Story in Sonic Games-How we want it

[Spin Attaxx]

Granted I wouldn't mind a story where Sonic fights some other villain and then the plot is hijacked by Eggman Ganondorf-style. Would be an ironic twist on the fact he's so used to having that happen to him.

 

Rush Adventure is right up your alley then.

[Jolt_TH]

I'd like some sort of cross between the modern and the classic. The classic stories have a simple, but effective and have a good tone, it's not lighthearted by any means but it isn't overly dark and gloomy (it has a mad scientist capturing animal to put in robots and then creating a space station to take over the world!). The modern stories tend to have some sort of plot twist or tense middle part (the classics didn't really and neither do the most recent additions).

I'd like a cross between s3&k and SA2, story wise, as they are my favourite games and I like the story elements (particualrly the tense twists like Sonics "death" and Eggman stealing the master emerald)

[Generations]

I think the story should be serious, just as long as it doesn't get like Sonic 06...

[Dr. Crusher]

I've actually never been that concerned about the story, at least compared to other priorities.

 

Ideally, I'd go for something between the Genesis games/Colours/Generations and SA1/Unleashed, with a fairly simple enough plot with much interaction inbetween. Overall though, as long as it's not too complicated and there's no specific plot details that irritate me (eg: Metal the Traitor in Heroes, Sonic and the Final Fantasy in 06, etc), then I'm for the most part right enough with whatever happens. (And if it is tish, me and my friend can just poke fun and have a jolly good laugh about it.)

[- Eternal Paradox -]

Ah! This seems like a good place to bring this up.

First of all, watch this:

Watched it? Good.

 

Right, here's one of the main problems with the Sonic Story at the mo'. I think the writers are being brought in too late, and are unable to interact with the rest of the team. Basically, they're currently being used as story robots: Sonic Team come up with a basic plot, then towards the end of production say "Hey, you guys. Write us a story." You say Sonic Colours had wasted potentional? This is WHY.

 

In my opinion, no-matter what the production, the writer should be given piority and access to production of the game as it progress. If not on the same level as the director/producer, they should at least be in regular contact with them. Because while gameplay always takes the top piority, story can also lead to new gameplay opportunities.

 

Example: Writer: I've worked out why Eggman's harvesting Wisps! He's using their power to make a mind control device!

Director: Hey! That's a good idea! Maybe we can have new boss fights with mind controlled characters!

 

Intergrating new boss fights late into production would be partically impossible..

[Scar]

I agree with the above point. However, I find it difficult to imagine a Sonic game, where the writers are an integral part of the game design. The series as built itself upon creating fantastic levels to explore and then creating a story to fit them together. I understand that Story is significant  and it can improve the overall quality of the game when executed well, however, it has never been the focus of the franchise. Its not like say Journey, or Bioshock, or Spec Ops: The Line, or The Walking Dead, where the narrative is an integral part of the gameplay experience.

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't be, its just that expecting direct involvement from the writers during the conceptualisation is a bit much. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't think its going to happen any time soon.

[Kuzu]

I'd rather Sega commission the writers to try and come up with some witty and engaging dialogue rather than trying to fit all of the levels within a narrative purpose. Let's be honest people, the only narrative purpose of levels in Sonic game is simply getting from point A to point B, and that's it. I think a better focus would be less on the story itself, and more on the characters involved in it. Character Development, depth, all that jazz will come naturally, but I think the writers should focus on the character's strength & weaknesses and how it translates to their actions within the story. The problem with Colors & Generations is that, while the dialogue and characterization is good(sorta), the characters tend to do "fuck all" in most of the cutscenes, and most dialogue is pointless exposition about stupid shit instead of an conversation between the characters.

 

When writing for a series like Sonic, I think it's better to try and understand the characters and their personalities, and how to write a proper conversation for them and how to make them act when action is needed rather than talking about the aforementioned exposition. This is the ultimate difference between Colors & Generations for me, and most of the games in the series; Neither game have a lot of action going on, but Colors, when it isn't trying to be funny, manages to make conversations between Sonic & Tails or Eggman & his henchmen so much more interesting because of how natural it sounds.

 

 

So yeah, more engaging dialogue between characters and appropriate action by them and no more pointless exposition and standing around for 3 minutes, kthx.

[Diogenes]

I'd rather Sega commission the writers to try and come up with some witty and engaging dialogue rather than trying to fit all of the levels within a narrative purpose. Let's be honest people, the only narrative purpose of levels in Sonic game is simply getting from point A to point B, and that's it.

I don't think we should have to choose, really.

I think it's important to give Sonic (and whoever else is involved) a good reason to go from A to B. Looking at the Adventures, you're generally kept moving and given decent reason to go to the next level. Sonic's levels in SA start with rescuing Tails after his plane crashes, then goes into an emerald hunt once Eggman blathers on about his plan, then Sonic and Tails are separated, Sonic runs into Amy, and he spends a few levels running after her, then she gets captured, so he chases the Egg Carrier, meets up with Tails, they run through the Carrier...etc etc. There are reasons for you to go to a place, the character has a goal they are working towards that is not just "there is a level, so play it".

Compared to the last few games, you could be generous and say they have a relaxed pace, but it's probably more accurate to say nothing really happens. There's a void in the center of the game where nothing of any real consequence happens, where the levels are just sort of obligatory rather than justified. They all fit into the long-term goal of the game, but without any immediacy they aren't really compelling. Without a solid center, what story they have hangs limply off the ends. The series needs action and danger and excitement, and no amount of well-written chatter is a substitute for that, I think.

[Kuzu]

I don't think we should have to choose, really.

I think it's important to give Sonic (and whoever else is involved) a good reason to go from A to B. Looking at the Adventures, you're generally kept moving and given decent reason to go to the next level. Sonic's levels in SA start with rescuing Tails after his plane crashes, then goes into an emerald hunt once Eggman blathers on about his plan, then Sonic and Tails are separated, Sonic runs into Amy, and he spends a few levels running after her, then she gets captured, so he chases the Egg Carrier, meets up with Tails, they run through the Carrier...etc etc. There are reasons for you to go to a place, the character has a goal they are working towards that is not just "there is a level, so play it".

Compared to the last few games, you could be generous and say they have a relaxed pace, but it's probably more accurate to say nothing really happens. There's a void in the center of the game where nothing of any real consequence happens, where the levels are just sort of obligatory rather than justified. They all fit into the long-term goal of the game, but without any immediacy they aren't really compelling. Without a solid center, what story they have hangs limply off the ends. The series needs action and danger and excitement, and no amount of well-written chatter is a substitute for that, I think.

 

 

Well in case you didn't read the rest of my post, I did say the characters need to act more too. I was just basically stating Sega don't need to come up with a ridiculously contrived reason for a character to go through a level.

[Diogenes]

If it's "ridiculously contrived", they're doing it wrong. Like I said, in the Adventures there's a pretty straightforward reason for each level.

[Kuzu]

I never said there wasn't, just making a statement.

[Salamander]

I think coming up with decent reasons to go from A to B would be significantly harder if you had to shoehorn it into a series of completely arbitrarily-themed levels which you had no control over the design of. At the very least work with the writers in the early stages of the game's concept to make sure they actually have something to work with. As it stands, probably quite a few of the recent games would survive if you just stripped out all the cutscenes and put the story in the manual. Sadly, I suspect that's exactly what Sonic Team wants - a game you can zip through whilst skipping every cutscene.

[Jolt_TH]

Problem is the writers don't actually do the storyline, they just write the dialog during the game, I'm pretty sure Somic Team write the general plot and tell the writers "X happens after Y and then Z happens"

[Anti Alias]

the scenario writers are not the scriptwriters for the game.

the scenario writers (from Japan) probably write the plot, scriptwriters (Mad World guys) then add the dialogue.

doesn't work too well IMO.

[Salamander]

Whatever the arrangement, a collaboration between Japanese-speaking developers and English-speaking writers is always going to have problems. But it sounds as if the scenario writers have no excuse, unless their excuse too is only doing what they were told, which is likely. Either way, the present story-light Sonic games are surely the result of quite an authoritative influence in Sonic Team. I'm sure the people involved could at least make an attempt at a good plot if they were asked, and we would respect that, but someone doesn't want them to - whether that's Iizuka or the people in charge of audience surveys.

[Anti Alias]

Sonic has the potential for a great story, but for that, the character would have to change, is it even possible?

 

we should think about what could make a great story in a sonic game, except that the characters can't change at all.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Anti Alias

[Diogenes]

we should think about what could make a great story in a sonic game, except that the characters can't change at all.

Good stories pretty much require good characters. And Sonic characters? Not so good. You're not going to get far if you can't change the characters.

[Anti Alias]

Good stories pretty much require good characters. And Sonic characters? Not so good. You're not going to get far if you can't change the characters.

but isn't Sonic (the saga) a "hero journey?"

 

I mean, the point of the hero journey is that the hero changes as he overcomes his obstacles, Sonic until now didn't learn shit!

 

how does that even works?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

but isn't Sonic (the saga) a "hero journey?"

 

I mean, the point of the hero journey is that the hero changes as he overcomes his obstacles, Sonic until now didn't learn shit!

 

how does that even works?

He learned that being a God Mode Sue is a good thing and that idiotic fans will always expect him to be this because having any character development in this series is a sin unless it marginalizes the other cast members.

 

...Not us btw, I mean others.

Edited March 6, 2013 by 743-E.D. Missile

[Emmett L. Brown]

I'm not liking this assertation that an emotionally well-adjusted characters can't have great stories. Think of Superman. He's basically the ultimate invincible always-wins hero type, and the fact that he stays true to his own ideals and holds on to his own personality traits through adversity is a defining characteristic. But the way you write a great Superman story is by taking his ideals and personality and putting it to the test. You tempt him to take the easy way out; to set aside his self-imposed restraints for the short term gain, and what you get when he stands up to all that and refuses to compromise himself is a fantastic Superman story.

 

Sonic can accomplish the same. The whole story of Sonic and the Black Knight is Sonic being constantly asked to conform to rules of obedience and honour that are second-nature to the innhabitants of the world, and Sonic time and time again refusing to do anything but what he personally believes is right. Character development isn't just about changing; it's also about testing the strength of a characters ideals, and showing how far they're willing to go to stay true to themselves.

[Anti Alias]

While Sonic and the Black Knight is good for the series standard, let's face it.

 

it's not great by any means.

 

we all know that Sonic has a ridiculously gary-stuey will, he doesn't gives up, never.

 

the problem with knowing this is that is boring.

 

Sonic has some potential for change, doesn't need to be a full blown change, but he would have flaws that he would have to learn about and overcome in order to achive a goal.

 

for example, I could say Sonic is reckless, overconfident, distant in his relationships (or rather, he is afraid of getting too personal), and is told that he can be quite selfish about his freedom.

 

what if we put what is important to Sonic vs what is important to Sonic?

 

what if we put his relationships vs his freedom? the love for his friends vs his lack of fear of danger? make his overconfidence kick his ass when he has the life of others at his hands?

 

I want to see these things bite his ass.

 

there IS potential for conflict within Sonic's character, the problem is that SEGA has set a tone so lacking in emotional appeal that anything that isn't "cocky Sonic kicks ass" starts to be out of the tone of their plots.

[Pawn]

Sonic can accomplish the same. The whole story of Sonic and the Black Knight is Sonic being constantly asked to conform to rules of obedience and honour that are second-nature to the innhabitants of the world, and Sonic time and time again refusing to do anything but what he personally believes is right. Character development isn't just about changing; it's also about testing the strength of a characters ideals, and showing how far they're willing to go to stay true to themselves.

 

That didn't test the strength of his ideals though, as there was no struggle to hold onto them. It simply showed what they were.

[Soniman]

Im really getting tired of any iteration of the term "sue" being applied to Sonic's character.

 

I think people are forgetting that despite the want for better storytelling, this is a VIDEO GAME first and foremost, Sonic is the HERO, the protagonist of said video game that's being controlled by the player, and by that nature, yes, Sonic is going to win at the end of the story/game, always. It's not a particular flaw on his character, it's just how it works. Now if you mean setbacks then that's a entirely different story.

[Vertekins]

Sonic can accomplish the same. The whole story of Sonic and the Black Knight is Sonic being constantly asked to conform to rules of obedience and honour that are second-nature to the innhabitants of the world, and Sonic time and time again refusing to do anything but what he personally believes is right. Character development isn't just about changing; it's also about testing the strength of a characters ideals, and showing how far they're willing to go to stay true to themselves.

 

Precisely dammit.

 

There was not one single moment in SatBK when Sonic played the part of some God Mode Sue. All of his actions perfectly correlated with his established characterization.

 

Sonic's "Get it done NOW" outlook (As stated by Naoto Oshima himself) and morals prevented him from just walking on past the small kid and saying "I have more pressing things to do" and/or "Let someone else deal with it" Oh look! The choice he made to help out the kids kin actually benefits him and advances the plot when Nimue reveals herself and divulges to him the method to stop the Scabbard from bestowing immortality on Arthur, an extremely important plot point.

 

Sonic's selflessness is saving Percival before she could become lava-baked kitty tells Caliburn that he is chivalrous, the main code of honor for a Knight and compels him to bestow Knighthood on Sonic, Sonic's stated goal in the story. It also brought Percival over to his side. Another very important plot point as she goes on to stab her sword into The Cauldron's barrier stone to bring up the barrier in order to slow the spread of Merlina's stasis magic.

 

Sonic's prevention of Gawain's suicide and line "Isn't there more to being a Knight than serving a king?" is what 1 - Keeps Gawain alive and 2 - Makes him consider. Bonus points for Sonic repeating that line later-on to Gawain when he and the other Knights are lamenting the imminent downfall of their kingdom, compelling him to carry out his knightly duties and come to the salvation of the kingdom's people. As I stated in my 'Hidden depths' topic, this is a cool reference to Sonic's manner in SRA when he's drilling into Blaze that she has a responsibility as princess to fight for her people, making her see sense rather than dwelling on her outrage and hatred towards the Eggmen. Him saying it to Gawain stops him from dwelling on his shame and makes him focus on his duty.

 

These examples are great showings of Sonic's mannerisms getting results and believably motivating the characters around him, not examples of Sonic being a God Mode Sue.

 

 

That didn't test the strength of his ideals though, as there was no struggle to hold onto them. It simply showed what they were.

 

Merlina sliced Caliburn in two and kept inflicting the most vicious and unrestrained beatdown on him so far seen in the series all because Sonic violently objected to her one-sided sadness and determination to make Camelot a hell on earth all for the sake of escaping her own sadness, completely irrespective of the suffering of the people that would result from such an action and the unnaturalness of it. This correlates with the extremely high standard in which Sonic holds personal freedoms and no matter how much Merlina battered him, he wasn't going to sit down and watch as she violated profound natural laws and other people's rights. That is him fighting for his views.

[Diogenes]

I'm not liking this assertation that an emotionally well-adjusted characters can't have great stories.

I don't think a character needs to start as a maladjusted bundle of problems to be interesting, but I think they need to be at least a little rough.

Think of Superman. He's basically the ultimate invincible always-wins hero type, and the fact that he stays true to his own ideals and holds on to his own personality traits through adversity is a defining characteristic. But the way you write a great Superman story is by taking his ideals and personality and putting it to the test. You tempt him to take the easy way out; to set aside his self-imposed restraints for the short term gain, and what you get when he stands up to all that and refuses to compromise himself is a fantastic Superman story.

Like this, the testing part only works if it's believable, if you can convince the reader that there is a chance he could take the wrong path...or maybe that the path he's chosen is wrong, or something that shows he isn't perfect, that he's still growing and facing problems. 

 

Im really getting tired of any iteration of the term "sue" being applied to Sonic's character.

 

I think people are forgetting that despite the want for better storytelling, this is a VIDEO GAME first and foremost, Sonic is the HERO, the protagonist of said video game that's being controlled by the player, and by that nature, yes, Sonic is going to win at the end of the story/game, always. It's not a particular flaw on his character, it's just how it works. Now if you mean setbacks then that's a entirely different story.

In most stories the protagonist is going to win in the end, video game or not. I've got no beef with that, and I really wouldn't expect any Sonic game to end with him losing. But he's got to struggle to get there, and Sonic...doesn't. Not really, anyway; things just tend to fall into place, especially lately.