Sonic being mute

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Lol, it was just my views on it. I edited my post a bit to give a clearer explenation. Silent expression just apeals more to me which is mostly why nintendo characters have stayed just as iconic.

No, that's not really the reason they stayed as iconic. It's because they were among the earliest of video games and that status in itself it what serves as to make them iconic.

Them having silent expressions is really just the tip of the iceburg, and it wouldn't affect very much if that wasn't the case in the beginning.

Just look at what happened to Samus when she started talking. It's not that I dislike voice acting, but with specifically some characters I would prefer them to be silent.

It's not poor logic, it's just an example.

No, that is poor logic even if it's an example. You don't judge a character solely because of your preference to them being silent, you judge them on their character and the quality of whatever changes and such go into the character.

Don't think I'm applying this to you, but it's shit like that which is why people cry "RUINED FOREVER" because of that change of status quo, and completely misses the point on the problem of the character.

Samus could've probably been portrayed better if the voice acting and script were better, but meh, it kept the metroid prime series very mysterious, and for the best. Metroid prime would've probably not felt the same were there to be voices.

And one could argue that it very well could've been the same or better if there were voice acting depending on the quality of it, and they could even maintain the mysterious nature. Literature and storytelling in general is not a black and white thing, as you can put things people wouldn't think of together and deliver a story comparable to that of what it would be if you did something else, and a rainbow of other things as well.

You can't simply decide that "X wouldn't be X" if you don't know whether it would still be "X" or not, and even if you do think so, you also can't claim "X being Y" would be a bad thing or wouldn't interest you when there is a possibility it can.

To throw out my own personal preferences, I generally wouldn't like character's who say very little and use only their actions, because I usually believe that a character like that is more empty than a character who was more of a character in his own with more words. Watching Pixar's Wall-e pretty much struck down that belief of mine because even if Wall-e didn't speak very many words, he was developed enough to be comparable to Hamlet from William Shakespear's plays. Now that belief of mine is less about a character being empty, and more about a character being a character according to how they develop to the point that it's not about whether the character speaks or not but on whether the character is interesting enough for me to care about the character. And you can do that in many ways that limiting yourself to one preference blurs you from the other side of the spectrum.

I'd say more, but I don't feel like making a dissertation out of this, but you see where I'm going. I'm not going to change your overall preferences, but I do think it would make you more open-minded if you see the endless possibilities...no pun intended.

She did have someone to talk to in the third game, yet she didn't so there goes your argument.

And she had some people to speak to in Other M, so the whole thing comes around in a circle.

If you look at it from the perspective to what it would add, I think it's for the better they keep some characters silent.

It's not really. Not if being silent is the part that makes them better, because anyone can simply say "they're not trying" in retaliation to that.

If you're going to make them silent and expect it to work, you've got to deliver. The same applies if the character were to talk.

What I love most about nintendo's design phylosify is that the experience of the player doesn't have to come from voice acting conversations and all that stuff. It mostly comes from imagery which imo has a very magical outcome(same with sonic 3 and knuckles).

I understand what your saying. But there are limitations to that on it's own and that's where I have a problem with that (and the opposite regarding characters), because I want to understand the world not just from my own or from the perspective of the character I'm playing, but from other characters as well. When you craft a world, any world, it's within the obligations of the person who made it to allow the player to understand it be it imagery or words, and that's why I think the two are symbotic; without one, the other is missing something.

When a character doesn't speak much or at all, I want to know what made them like that. When a character is really active, I want to know why. When a character reacts to something, I want to believe it in the character. I could go on.

Edited July 26, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Scar]

She did have someone to talk to in the third game, yet she didn't so there goes your argument. If you look at it from the perspective to what it would add, I think it's for the better they keep some characters silent. What I love most about nintendo's design phylosify is that the experience of the player doesn't have to come from voice acting conversations and all that stuff. It mostly comes from imagery which imo has a very magical outcome(same with sonic 3 and knuckles). It's hard to explain and I wonder what they would reply if they would to be asked the question to why they keep em silent. It probably has to do with the player himself filling in the blankness. I love it personally.

I haven't played Prime 3.

I get what you're saying. I guess it depends on the game. With Zelda and Metroid, in a way, you're supposed to be Samus and Link. The same isn't strictly true of Sonic games. Yeah, you can make implications of what Sonic is like, based on his actions, and the story itself, but you can't develop the character any more than that, without having to finally resort to dialogue.

You see, I wouldn't mind if the story was told with the location and environment. I just want the characters to talk to each other in order to develop their characters, rather than the plot. In most good movies, the characters dialogue is used to develop their character, not the plot. You can see what's happening, the characters don't need to explain it to you, unless it needs explaining. Most of the time, you see how the character reacts to an event, or location. The same should happen in Sonic games.

Also, facial expressions and body laguage can be used in conjuction with dialogue.

I'd rather it be a good balance than it being either silent or constant talking.

[Djawed]

We're on the same line now then . Yeah I reckon that sonic works well with voice acting and I support it when it's executed well. As weird as it may have seemed not too long ago, i'm glad that we have 2 sonic's now similar to how Zelda has different links. This way everyone can be satisfied and the apeal of voice acting and silent characters can both cater to their audiences. I would love to see something similar to sonic 3 and knuckles be portrayed with todays HD technoligy. This is why i'm very much anticipating sonic generations story and hopefully more from there on.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Jaouad

[Amomynous]

A lot of comedy stems from two completely different people having to be or work together. And some of it actually manages to work.

It's the fact that it's supposed to be the same character that makes it not work.

I'm not that bothered about whether classic Sonic is mute/ voiced, I'm just that is doesn't make logical sense that he's mute, though I guess it doesn't really have to make logical sense.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Mysterics

[Koopalmier]

Nepenthe, aren't you forgetting something here? This is part of the manual for Sonic CD, containing a prologue in which both Sonic and Amy are in fact given explicit dialogue

[ThatGuyJay]

Off-Topic but I recall Samus speaking in dialouge boxes in Metroid Fusion which came out years before Other M so Samus wasn't really intended to be a silent protagainist," I think she kept to herself alot more than her being mute, in which leads to silence.

[Nepenthe]

Also, if you need any more convincing than that that the addition of dialogue wasn't a stuff-up by localization, here's the Jap version, translated for your convenience.

Localization has nothing to do with my argument because I'm focusing specifically on the actual games which, as far as I know, weren't changed heavily between regions hence why I've made the point to focus only on them. In terms of content, the Japanese version of S1 is the exact same as the American version which is the exact same as the German version which is the exact same as the Australian version, thus there's no ambiguity and localization nonsense to be had when we look at them. And as I already said, I'm not interested in manual wars, although I could still pull more examples myself.

The absence of dialogue in the manuals doesn't necessarily prove your point so much as imply oversight. The thing is, had Classic Sonic not been intended as a speaking character they never would've written any dialogue at all, and the fact that they took the trouble to do it, even once, still speaks to the contrary.

Of course it doesn't prove my point. It merely attacks the credibility of yours. There are more manuals out there that tell the games' story without the use of dialogue than there are manuals that do. Ergo, the logical conclusion to make would be that there was a bigger intention to keep Sonic silent than to promote the idea that he was a talkative character in the games.

Now wait just a minute there. Nobody here ever implied that Classic Sonic was a blabbermouth, just that he's a speaking character at all. Appreciate you putting words in my mouth though.

Here's the thing though - a lot of things about the classic games are usually, in some vauge description, open to interpretation, and if we're to make assumptions based solely on what we see explicitly in the games themselves it leads to a lot of silly conclusions. Just to name one: Sonic and Eggman are the only two sentient beings ever sighted in the game - does that mean they're the entire planet's population? Well of course not, because if nothing else population is still strongly implied by the fact several zones have cities in them, or are cities in themselves. It's not terribly farfetched to say communication is implied, even when gameplay doesn't explicitly show it, when you can already derive so much from it without the game shoving it in your face.

You don't have to be a blabbermouth to be meant to speak; thank you for the strawman yourself.

However, the original argument was basically that the presence of in-game dialogue, specifically in CD and SegaSonic Arcade, during the classic era was the smoking gun that Sonic was always meant to speak during that era's games, and that they were held back from doing it on a more widespread scale by technology and/or budget. My opponents have thus been relying on "explicit" evidence in the games- the blatant use of in-game dialogue- to try and make their point, therefore I see no reason why I can't look at the issue from the same viewpoint and yet come to a different conclusion depending upon my own interpretation and standards.

I can only concede to your point on the basis that it's a gameplay decision, not a character based one. Which isn't really saying much because the game in general wasn't given dialogue, and it's never argued that anyone else was mute by design.

It being a gameplay/in-game decision is the entire point of my argument. =P And other characters are never argued about because their muteness is the obvious implication to be made in this discussion, even though we're only focusing on a specific character.

Then isn't it a good thing nobody's made that comparison yet? Correct me if I'm wrong of course. Still appreciate the strawman though, but it's not like we're making this argument for the sole reason that he speaks now.

I never said that such a comparison was made; once again, another ironic strawman on your part. I'm using that comparison as a blatantly marked example to explain why the logic of "it was changed, therefore it's less true" is highly flawed.

Edit: Grammaaaar. =(

Edited July 26, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Blacklightning]

Before I get to anything else:

It being a gameplay/in-game decision is the entire point of my argument.

Then what's the problem? You're arguing on a completely different field that I haven't even contested. Is it wrong to accept Sonic was only mute because of the standards the game set, and had intended character beyond it? The reason I brought up the manuals in the first place is because 1) they were unaffected by gameplay stylization, 2) are still debatably an extension of the game's canon, however shaky that may be in some locales, and 3) depicts actual spoken character (obviously).

Now back to the action...

Of course it doesn't prove my point. It merely attacks the credibility of yours.

The lack of dialogue can imply many things, admittedly including but still not strictly limited to inability to speak by design. The addition of dialogue, however, cannot be construed in any manner other than "This is Sonic. Sonic is talking. With his mouth". Had the inability to speak been an intended character trait rather than a gameplay stylization, not one locale, in any manual, would have bothered writing any dialogue.

You don't have to be a blabbermouth to be meant to speak;

I'm hoping for the summation of these examples to dwarf the amount of time the cast spent with their mouths shut, otherwise dialogue in the classic games continues to remain the exception instead of the rule.

Strongly implies that talking be frequent - hence blabbermouthing - to be considered a valid character trait. If it wasn't your intention to put that message across, that's fine, but you really need to work on your wording.

However, the original argument was basically that the presence of in-game dialogue, specifically in CD and SegaSonic Arcade, during the classic era was the smoking gun that Sonic was always meant to speak during that era's games, and that they were held back from doing it on a more widespread scale by technology and/or budget.

Well it's certaintly not what I'm trying to get at, because it's pretty obviously gameplay stylization if it isn't widespread by the time of, say, the Saturn era (though to be fair, Sega wasn't exactly Sonic-crazy at the time, save for that one certain controversy-stirring title that got cancelled). The thing is, this was actually a fairly commonplace thing to do to characters that had obvious speaking character, and that practice lasted all the way up to the Dreamcast era before voice-acted games started becoming less of a fad and more of an obligation (and even then I don't know many voice actors that even took them seriously - lol Shenmue). Nobody can blame Sega for playing it safe until they had some idea of what exactly to make him sound like, because let's face it, marketing Sonic off as the badass equivalent of Mario the way they did then giving him the voice equivalent of Mickey Mouse (if CD is any indication) in a dialogue-heavy game is essentially shooting yourself in the foot.

I never said that such a comparison was made; once again, another ironic strawman on your part. I'm using that comparison as a blatantly marked example to explain why the logic of "it was changed, therefore it's less true" is highly flawed.

My point was that I haven't seen anyone use this specific logic, which again you're welcome to prove me wrong on if I've missed something.

On a less related note, even though this might not necessarily prove my point I made an observation I felt some people might find interesting.

Within the first few seconds of Doomsday Zone you get to see Sonic going into Super form, but rather than the usual transformation noise you'd get mid-level it's instead replaced by this wierd high-pitched squeal right when he triggers it. What occurs to me just now is that this isn't specifically the sound of Sonic transforming, but rather him screaming in reaction. Rather than record a grainy, shit-sounding and probably memory-consuming sound bite, Sega instead used the Genesis's sound chip to ad-lib it. Back in the day this technique wasn't exactly unheard of (I know for a fact Chrono Trigger does it on occasion, but I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head), but it kinda surprised me that I didn't think they'd ever done that deliberately.

Which brings me to a bit of a big mind-fuck realization. If Sonic's voice in the 16-bit era is represented by simple sound effects of that kind... then what's that noise he makes when he jumps? Sonic has been exclaiming on every single jump and I didn't even realize that was a possibility.

[redhellc]

Well its already confirmed that classic sonic will be mute in generations and I have not problem against that(I'm curious how will they handle the cutscenes with modern sonic),but in terms of modern sonic I think he should talk.I think its best for the story in sonic games if he talks, I'm not saying you can't do a good story with muted characters, but a story in modern games of all kinds its very important and sonic games are not different and the story could be enriched by speech.

I mean its not 90's anymore I get if people want classic sonic to be mute, but sonic as voice since the adventures and in that time it was no problem there( I think) and colors brought a new voice actor(that I think its good)so there should be no problem now too.But this is my opinion, of course.

And one question,I don't want to go a lot off topic, but any word from sega about classic eggman is going to be mute or not?

Edited July 27, 2011 by redhellc

[Nerfuffle]

Sonic is an enormous blue hedgehog-cyclops who inhabits a world where abandoned TVs have pocket money and force fields inside them, practically every road system is required by law to have loops and corkscrews, a giant checkered wrecking ball is a legitimate death weapon, and the only way to officially defeat your nemesis is to jump dimensions and complete a series of odd tasks to collect gems that turn you yellow.

Sonic was never mute….he just had nothing to say.

[Nepenthe]

Then what's the problem? You're arguing on a completely different field that I haven't even contested. Is it wrong to accept Sonic was only mute because of the standards the game set, and had intended character beyond it? The reason I brought up the manuals in the first place is because 1) they were unaffected by gameplay stylization, 2) are still debatably an extension of the game's canon, however shaky that may be in some locales, and 3) depicts actual spoken character (obviously).

[KHCast]

I would be fine either way if classic sonic was talking or not. I'm sure classic sonic talking would work somehow.

[Blacklightning]

But the question I pose to you and others in return is what's wrong with admitting that my preference is understandable too?

Nothing. I have admitted as such, in fact.

The overwhelming lack of dialogue doesn't imply anything other than there's an overwhelming lack of dialogue which is what Classic Sonic in Generations will possess- an overwhelming lack of dialogue.

That point was actually referring to the manuals more than the games, so I think you're dragging that a bit out of context there. Nonetheless, I'll try and roll with it. Without any Word of God, a lack of dialogue could also imply to various extents:

- Technical difficulty in audible voice, combined with the fact text prompts can be invasive and distracting most notably in a fast and minimalist game such as Sonic. Yes, I know it's still possible to throw it about someplace, but I'd like to think "we don't know a good way to do it" is a legitimate excuse. Speaking of which.

- Lack of knowing an intuitive way to implement it into the game - ergo, playing it safe. Same goes for Generations, but for much different reasons.

- Deliberate ambiguity. Not unheard of from the franchise, especially in the Genny era.

- "We just couldn't be fucked".

Not to say any of those are specifically true of course - I'm just saying the lack of spoken word doesn't lead to a single conclusion like you seem to think it does.

If you're going to make a positive claim otherwise, that the default state of silence in the classics is false

Sigh. Once again, that's not what I'm contesting, so I'm not even going to bother with the rest of that fragment.

Note: Let's stop focusing specifically on full-blown dialogue ala the 3D games because that's not what I nor any reasonable person even expects from the Genny games. As I said, I wouldn't have been opposed to text or weird, garbled sounds meant to be construed as dialogue;

But perhaps Sega was? I mean, it's obviously their call if they couldn't find a way to make it fit, and I wouldn't blame them for having standards a hell of a lot higher than any old fan's. Moving onto dialogue in a series that previously had none is a more sensitive step than you may realize - would this argument even have occured if there weren't any great risk involved?

...well yeah I guess it would've considering some of us still argue about green eyes, but you get what I mean.

And I don't understand why neither couldn't have at least been added in the little cutaways. They were long enough for it.

I'm sorry, which cutaways? We're not talking about the "Act 1 - 2" panels that last all of 5 seconds are we? I'm confused.

though I'm not sure how much a risk a Mickey voice would've been in light of the marketing considering the dude's design is based off that very character, but I digress. xP

You know, we may realize that in hindsight, but I doubt any kiddy back in the day with an ounce of testosterone in them would've. Or even cared to be honest, besides the fact this cool dude apparently sounded like a sissy prepubescent kid.

- along with general reaffirmation that a talkative Sonic is true and a silent Sonic is false. What I gleaned from that statement and position is that, if we are to assume that classic Sonic's silence was intended at the time, then the intention lost its validity because it was abandoned during the reboot when Sonic gained a voice. From there I say: A lot of things were abandoned in the reboot, but that doesn't mean that the intention behind them and subsequently their validity as concepts don't exist anymore. Then I asked, "what does that say about other classic characteristics that were abandoned?" Should Sega stop attempting replication of the classic physics because Adventure abandoned them? Of course not.

Fair enough I guess, but comparing all this to the physics argument, which has a much, much stronger factual backing than this, seems like a bit of a stretch.

[Hawkz]

Sonic's personality and attitude as depicted in the games, cartoons, comics and books pretty much sums up the argument for giving him a voice.

He's a hero who is so in love with himself he can't help but point that out and the easist way to go about it is to give him the power of speech.

It's been well established/heavily hinted that Sonic has always had a voice. As has been mentioned, hardware limitations at the time simply meant he couldn't have one. If we can count the comics, cartoons and book released at the time of the genesis games as remotely canon in some form, you can come to the conclusion he was always meant to speak because except for the games, at that time, he sure as hell was a blabber mouth. As for C Sonic in Generations, I honestly don't care if he is mute or not. Whatever enhances the story or the game (if they seem hell-bent on having an over arcing canon, that is). It doesn't bother me. It could go either way. I wouldn't be suprised if by the close of the game he utters words of some kind, however.

[no one]

Sonic's voice gives him his personality. I'm glad he has a voice but I wish they'd make him sound a bit more... believable. Roger C Smith did a great job in Colors tho.

[Neon]

Ugh. This topic has just reminded me of how much i hate Sonic Team's beyond dumbass decision to make Classic Sonic mute. Verte says it all in the first page.

The only real reason Generations C Sonic is mute is because of people's totally screwy, warped interpretation of his character. C Sonic is not a man of few words, he was only that because as I said, back in the day, technological limitations prevented him speaking much. Bear in mind that when Sonic 1 was released, the "SEGA!" chant at the very beginning allegedly took up 1/8th of the cartridge's storage! Can you see C Sonic being audible in a cartridge game that only has limited memory? EXACTLY. That's got nothing to do with C Sonic having innate muteness or quietness.

The only feasible reason I can see C Sonic in Generations being mute is SOLELY as a Mythology Gag pertaining to technological limitation back in the day when his design was prevalent. If they're trying to tell me that C Sonic is mute as a part of his character because he's silent mostly in the old games then sorry, that doesn't gel with me whatsoever.

What's even worse is the fact that most people will praise Sonic Team for not giving him a voice, thinking it's a perfect interpretation of Classic Sonic when it downright isn't.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Neon

[sonfan1984]

Ugh. This topic has just reminded me of how much i hate Sonic Team's beyond dumbass decision to make Classic Sonic mute.

I don't think its a dumbass decision. I think Sonic Team is just playing it safe cause if C.Sonic does talk then it will piss alot of people off and I'm getting tired of all the voice wars in this fanbase already. Atleast modern Sonic is able to talk and that's good enough for me.

[FTA]

Just popping in with a quick thought, a few pages back someone made the comment about if these characters where meant to speak why didn't Sega have them speak or write text in, and there is only one example I can think of from the classic games.

In Sonic and Knuckles, in "Hidden Palace Zone" after you defeat Knuckles and Eggman steals the emerald, Knuckles is clearly shown shouting angryily at Eggman. Granted, we don't hear what he says, but he is clearly animated as speaking. Which if Knuckles (who is also seen chuckling, despite what his theme song states) could talk, clearly Sonic, Tails etc can as well. Which I do think shows that Sonic Team always thought of Sonic as a character who does speak, it just wasn't needed at all for the games.

In terms of Generations I can totally see why they are keeping Classic a mute, it's how most people remember him, and I respect that. Just, as it's been said before, I don't see the logic in how he doesn't speak but Modern can. Unless Classic is a mute through choice it just doesn't make sense to me.

Edited August 14, 2011 by FTA

[Ekajra]

I don't really have a problem with Classic Sonic being mute in Generations (apart from various problems I have with the concept of a classic Sonic, but that's a lot more complicated and I don't feel like writing a small essay at the moment). Thinking about it now, having Sonic being his usual chatty self combined with a younger version of himself who doesn't talk but is still a dude with attitude could lead to some hilarious, uh, I suppose "banter" isn't quite the right word, but still, hilarity will likely ensue.

However, I was never under the impression that Sonic didn't speak. I'd heard him talk in cartoons. Playing S3&K the 9001 times I did as a youngling it was apparent to me that they had to be talking to each other. So the concept of a mute Sonic is foreign to me. I can understand SEGA not giving him a voice in Generations as a throwback and also to avoid a fiasco if when purists didn't like it, but Sonic is clearly a character who is meant to talk.

[Mangoaxe5]

The problem that I have is that by playing it safe by making Classic Sonic mute, is that Sega is reinforcing the idea that Classic Sonic is this sacred object. It's already bad enough that the fans treat Classic Sonic as the savor of the franchise.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Darkfox

[sonfan1984]

It's already bad enough that the fans treat Classic Sonic as the savor of the franchise.

You mean the retro elitist/critics who bash green eye Sonic and treats him like he's the devil?

[Mangoaxe5]

You mean the retro elitist/critics who bash green eye Sonic and treats him like he's the devil?

Yep.

[Kuzu]

The problem that I have is that by playing it safe by making Classic Sonic mute, is that Sega is reinforcing the idea that Classic Sonic is this sacred object. It's already bad enough that the fans treat Classic Sonic as the savor of the franchise.

He kinda is though, I mean imagine Retro's reaction to them tampering with Classic Sonic?

[sonfan1984]

Yeah they have more freedom and could do a lot more with Modern Sonic. Classic Sonic they need to be extra careful with him cause people will complain if Classic Sonic does things that he shouldn't be doing, etc.

Edited August 14, 2011 by sonfan1984

[Mangoaxe5]

I really hate the mindset that Classic Sonic must be kept safe.

Classic Sonic's been in some pretty crappy games as well like Sonic Spinball, Sonic Labyrinth, Sonic 3-D Blast, and Sonic R.