Sonic being mute

[Gamenerd]

So the team the developed the Genesis' flagship series and put Sega on the map couldn't put a snippet of text in the games that mattered to communicate this supposed perception that Sonic was always meant to talk because of budget issues? Really? So in the sequels, we can double and even triple the level size, improve the graphics, add playable characters, and even cutscenes, but text in those cutscenes? Oh no, sorry. We don't have enough monies. It takes billions to type some exclamations out.

And what about the Saturn port of 3D Blast? R? Fighters? Why wasn't it attempted then? You honestly believe there wasn't a single chance before 1999 other than CD and SegaSonic The Hedgehog to try something?

You mean like this?

[Nepenthe]

Maybe, just maybe because it stands to reason that Sega wouldn't allow these companies to go off of the deep end with the main character of the franchise? Plus, those cutscenes, if you can even call them that hardly broke the flow of the game. They were five seconds at best and got the points across without any need for text. Every real chance that they had to make Sonic talk, they took. If Sonic was meant to have been silent, they wouldn't have done these things, and he wouldn't have spoken anywhere. Really. I have no idea how anyone is possibly coming to this conclusion that Sonic is Snake Eyes or some other ridiculous shit. If you ask me, it's go no basis in anything other than a sudden hatred for dialouge.

Mute Sonic isn't a part of Sonic's character. It's nothing but playing the "safe" road and catering to some warped perception of Sonic that never really existed. Man, this whole thing is right up there with "baww green eyes" IMO.

Considering I made my various opinions of which you're free to read to your heart's content, I find it really funny that you continue to insinuate that my preference for Classic Sonic not talking is rooted in biases that I, you know, don't actually hold. Oh, and thanks for not even trying to answer any of my questions either. And on your dodging, I continue to hold that your insistence of tv shows and comics' relevance on the games' universe is fundamentally flawed by mere observation. Boot up any version of S1, 2, and 3&K, or the Game Gear games, and many of the arcade and PC releases and whatnot, and you simply won't hear Sonic or anyone else talking. This isn't rocket science.

@ Gamernerd: Exactly like that. Now, you answer me, why didn't they do that in the rest of the games from the very beginning if they believed such dialogue was meant to be a character trait from the beginning? Why was this so technologically, financially, or even ideologically impossible if it was meant to be true?

[Gamenerd]

@ Gamernerd: Exactly like that. Now, you answer me, why didn't they do that in the rest of the games from the very beginning if they believed such dialogue was meant to be a character trait from the beginning? Why was this so technologically, financially, or even ideologically impossible if it was meant to be true?

In the end it probably just comes down to it not being a particularly defining or important trait in the games. We never saw any humans other than Eggman (and Wendy Witchcraft) but that doesn't mean they never intended to have humans in the series, and the same applies for voices - just because they didn't feel to use them, doesn't necessarily mean they weren't there. We didn't get a whole lot of anything plot related in Sonic 1 and 2; but that doesn't mean there wasn't plot, or that the characters were incapable of speech, or any other assumptions that come with the ambiguity of the old games.

When it comes down to it, the oldest Sonic games were ambiguous in every regard, and as soon as the time came to fill in the gaps, assumptions such as there being no humans, the characters having no voices and Sonic living on Mobius (cheers for that, SEGA of America) were swiftly disproved. Sonic having a voice wasn't impossible in Sonic 1 or 2 - it just wasn't deemed necessary, but that doesn't mean he didn't have one.

Don't get me wrong, I have a preference for Classic Sonic keeping his mouth shut purely on the grounds that after 20 years I've gotten used to him not having a whole lot to say, but from SEGA's point of view I don't think mutism was ever an intended trait of the character.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Gamenerd

[Aquaslash]

@ Gamernerd: Exactly like that. Now, you answer me, why didn't they do that in the rest of the games from the very beginning if they believed such dialogue was meant to be a character trait from the beginning? Why was this so technologically, financially, or even ideologically impossible if it was meant to be true?

Did they really need to? According to about...two of you I guess they did! I used to think that it went without saying that these characters were talkers but the particular medium chose not to for the sake to time, bugdet, flow, etc. Also I'm pretty sure that I didn't dodge a thing, but you just weren't satisfied with my answers. That there isn't my fault.

I still want to know how anyone could remotely think this was a character trait when just about...I dunno....everything said otherwise

EDIT: Well damn, I just got ninja'd and with elaboration to boot.

EDIT: semi long winded explanation of why voice samples would have been a difficult beast on the Genesis Sonics.

Actually, let me add this on the specific note about voice samples. I alluded to this before but there's a more technological sound reason Sonics 1-3k didn't have samples while CD did. It's all in the sound code. in order to use PCM samples, the sound driver of all three games would have to be heavily modified to support them without resorting to a process consuming decompression method on every sample (which is the case of drum samples in general). Even then, unless said samples would either have to be part of a drum track, they would be at odds WITH the drum track. If the clip was longer than a fraction of a second, it'd be cut off by the drums in a song.

The specific music engine Sonic games use does not natively support simultaneous playback of multiple samples (AKA sample mixing). To get that working requires extensive modifications (which cost time and money to make and test), and even THEN, you're extremely limited the number of samples you can use, but then the quality of said samples takes a hit as well. Ristar is a good example of this. It has software sample mixing (because it's a hardware impossibility), but it has maybe a fifth of the amount of samples that S3K has (if even that), and the sample quality is kinda poor.

Meanwhile, the Sega CD hardware supports at LEAST 4 drum channels (as opposed to the one on the Genesis), and Sonic CD in particular has a dedicated track for PCM samples. Half of the sound effects in that game are PCM samples, and voice playback was no problem at all.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Aquaslash

[Nepenthe]

In the end it probably just comes down to it not being a particularly defining or important trait in the games. We never saw any humans other than Eggman (and Wendy Witchcraft) but that doesn't mean they never intended to have humans in the series, and the same applies for voices - just because they didn't feel to use them, doesn't necessarily mean they weren't there. We didn't get a whole lot of anything plot related in Sonic 1 and 2; but that doesn't mean there wasn't plot, or that the characters were incapable of speech, or any other assumptions that come with the ambiguity of the old games.

When it comes down to it, the oldest Sonic games were ambiguous in every regard, and as soon as the time came to fill in the gaps, assumptions such as there being no humans, the characters having no voices and Sonic living on Mobius (cheers for that, SEGA of America) were swiftly disproved. Sonic having a voice wasn't impossible in Sonic 1 or 2 - it just wasn't deemed necessary, but that doesn't mean he didn't have one.

Don't get me wrong, I have a preference for Classic Sonic keeping his mouth shut purely on the grounds that after 20 years I've gotten used to him not having a whole lot to say, but from SEGA's point of view I don't think mutism was ever an intended trait of the character.

We could've easily deduced that there were others of the relevant species in the games, including humans, mostly because manuals made it a note to clarify Knuckles' status as the last echidna. So while I wouldn't equate the lack of humans in the old games with the lack of speech, you still touch on my point- Speech wasn't an important trait for the casts' in-game characterization in the classics so Sonic Team didn't bother with it.

However, this goes completely against the claim being made that speech was always intended to be in the games but time, technology, and/or budget prevented it from happening before Adventure. My main sticking point with that is that it puts another claim into play, that being one of Sonic Team's original intentions with the games' universe, and the evidence for it is so sorely lacking that the whole idea warrants dismissal until noted otherwise.

Worse yet, I'm being asked to place faith in the media that has always had fundamental differences with the games that they were based off of, to essentially admit that SatAM of all things was more accurate to what Sonic was about then the actual games themselves. Needless to say, I find it outright ludicrous.

This all still seems in opposition to a very simple observation here- Sonic didn't talk for 99% of the time in the games before Adventure. Whether or not this was intentional doesn't amount to a hill of beans; that's simply the reality of the situation, and recognizing that isn't anymore nostalgia-driven than saying that- yes- Sonic was drawn and rendered with black eyes once upon a time.

Unless we now want to expand the model fight into whether or not those eyes were really supposed to be black or if poor Sonic Team's true vision of green peepers was held back by bad ol' crappy technology and tight budgets.

Did they really need to? According to about...two of you I guess they did! I used to think that it went without saying that these characters were talkers but the particular medium chose not to for the sake to time, bugdet, flow, etc. Also I'm pretty sure that I didn't dodge a thing, but you just weren't satisfied with my answers. That there isn't my fault.

Funny; in the games, I thought the exact opposite. Also, I asked three pertinent questions in the midst of my rambling to which no one has been able to give me a reasonable answer to:

• If dialogue was technologically impossible, why wasn't text ever used in the classic cutscenes (which, I assure you, wouldn't have destroyed the flow anymore than the scenes themselves did) if it was that important a character trait?
  • Why didn't we ever see a monumental increase in occurrences of dialogue with arcade, Saturn, 32X, and PC games since the technology would've allowed it?

  [*]Why hasn't Sonic Team come forward and stated or even hinted at anything about the inability to use dialogue if it was supposed to be that defining a trait when we basically know everything about how Sonic's final design and personality came to be?

  I still want to know how anyone could remotely think this was a character trait when just about...I dunno....everything said otherwise

  Oh. My. God, Becky, she like... has a different opinion and, ugh, perspective!

  EDIT: semi long winded explanation of why voice samples would have been a difficult beast on the Genesis Sonics.

  I appreciate the long-winded explanation (which I did read btw, although barely understood.) but it doesn't fully address the three questions above. =P

[Kuzu]

I never thought the subject of Sonic talking was such serious business.

[Aquaslash]

However, this goes completely against the claim being made that speech was always intended to be in the games but time, technology, and/or budget prevented it from happening before Adventure. My main sticking point with that is that it puts another claim into play, that being one of Sonic Team's original intentions with the games' universe, and the evidence for it is so sorely lacking that the whole idea warrants dismissal until noted otherwise.

I don't think I ever expressly said that, and I certainly didn't mean to imply it. I've been saying (or trying to say) that it was always a character trait, not that there were ever any intentions to use them. I've considered that when it was easily available (or better yet, convenient), they almost always took the option though.

Worse yet, I'm being asked to place faith in the media that has always had fundamental differences with the games that they were based off of, to essentially admit that SatAM of all things was more accurate to what Sonic was about then the actual games themselves. Needless to say, I find it outright ludicrous.

I definitely never placed emphasis on any single show or media, but on Sonic's portrayal back then as a whole. Whether it was a commercial, a TV show, a comic, or whatever. If it was convenient to have Sonic speak, he spoke. A lot. It is for this reason that I believe being chatty was always an aspect of Sonic's character, and for this reason that I dismiss the idea that he was ever intended to be a silent protagonist. It also doesn't help that if this ever were meant to be a trait in the games, it was never really held to, and it was quickly thrown away when they decided to "unify" the franchise And by "unify" I mean kill everything that wasn't used in the region where Sonic actually fared the worst. Interesting logic, that. That's another topic though.

Funny; in the games, I thought the exact opposite. Also, I asked three pertinent questions in the midst of my rambling to which no one has been able to give me a reasonable answer to:

• If dialogue was technologically impossible, why wasn't text ever used in the classic cutscenes (which, I assure you, wouldn't have destroyed the flow anymore than the scenes themselves did) if it was that important a character trait?
  • Why didn't we ever see a monumental increase in occurrences of dialogue with arcade, Saturn, 32X, and PC games since the technology would've allowed it?

  [*]Why hasn't Sonic Team come forward and stated or even hinted at anything about the inability to use dialogue if it was supposed to be that defining a trait when we basically know everything about how Sonic's final design and personality came to be?

  Haha, I'll do my best to answer these directly, though I'm not the best at explaining things.

  1. While all the focus on it for this discussion make it seem like it's THAT important of a character trait of Sonic himself, it overall isn't. It's more like a secondary one. I'd say his primary traits are his impatience, his impulsiveness, and his need to smack down oppression anywhere. These were able to be focused on better through actions, so that's the approach that was taken. Considering the options they had, it was probably the best way to go about it.

  2. I can't answer that question for gaming as a whole, I don't have that knowledge. In the specific case of Sonic, there were very few games on these platforms, and even fewer that weren't ports. Sonic 3D blast was an upscaled port of the Genesis one that really only used the Saturn hardware for music and the special stage engine, Sonic R was a racing game that had no plot, and Sonic Jam was a compilation. As for Chaotix, I'm still learning about that whole situation, so I'm not the best to answer. As for the PC, I understand that there's some sort of schoolhouse game in which sonic gives you various tasks. This is one of the instances they took advantage of the chance to use full dialogue, even though he sounds like a chipmunk.

  3. You can sort of see 1. for this. It wasn't what needed focus at the time, so unless it was easily possible, it wasn't done. On the other hand, I haven't seen any hints that he was ever intended to be silent either. I know there's something they say about this particular line of thinking, but the hell if I know what it is.

  I never thought the subject of Sonic talking was such serious business.

  Well, it's a nice change of pace from the green eyes, (justified) physics bitching, and "what can be done to save Sonic" (even though it was done years ago). Right? :V

Edited July 26, 2011 by Aquaslash

[Kintor]

We could've easily deduced that there were others of the relevant species in the games, including humans, mostly because manuals made it a note to clarify Knuckles' status as the last echidna. So while I wouldn't equate the lack of humans in the old games with the lack of speech, you still touch on my point- Speech wasn't an important trait for the casts' in-game characterization in the classics so Sonic Team didn't bother with it.

However, this goes completely against the claim being made that speech was always intended to be in the games but time, technology, and/or budget prevented it from happening before Adventure. My main sticking point with that is that it puts another claim into play, that being one of Sonic Team's original intentions with the games' universe, and the evidence for it is so sorely lacking that the whole idea warrants dismissal until noted otherwise.

Worse yet, I'm being asked to place faith in the media that has always had fundamental differences with the games that they were based off of, to essentially admit that SatAM of all things was more accurate to what Sonic was about then the actual games themselves. Needless to say, I find it outright ludicrous.

This all still seems in opposition to a very simple observation here- Sonic didn't talk for 99% of the time in the games before Adventure. Whether or not this was intentional doesn't amount to a hill of beans; that's simply the reality of the situation, and recognizing that isn't anymore nostalgia-driven than saying that- yes- Sonic was drawn and rendered with black eyes once upon a time.

Unless we now want to expand the model fight into whether or not those eyes were really supposed to be black or if poor Sonic Team's true vision of green peepers was held back by bad ol' crappy technology and tight budgets.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Kintor

[Nepenthe]

I don't think I ever expressly said that, and I certainly didn't mean to imply it. I've been saying (or trying to say) that it was always a character trait, not that there were ever any intentions to use them. I've considered that when it was easily available (or better yet, convenient), they almost always took the option though.

If Sonic Team almost always took advantage of the option to convey dialogue, (of which I don't believe was only four), that'd rationally mean they seriously considered it a trait worth expending resources on whenever they physically could but, as you've partially elaborated on, couldn't on a more widespread scale. What that still expresses to me is a hindered intention to have Sonic's ability to talk in the games a relevant trait which I still fundamentally disagree with.

I definitely never placed emphasis on any single show or media, but on Sonic's portrayal back then as a whole. Whether it was a commercial, a TV show, a comic, or whatever. If it was convenient to have Sonic speak, he spoke. A lot. It is for this reason that I believe being chatty was always an aspect of Sonic's character, and for this reason that I dismiss the idea that he was ever intended to be a silent protagonist. It also doesn't help that if this ever were meant to be a trait in the games, it was never really held to, and it was quickly thrown away when they decided to "unify" the franchise And by "unify" I mean kill everything that wasn't used in the region where Sonic actually fared the worst. Interesting logic, that. That's another topic though.

Sorry; I merely used SatAM as an example. =P

Anyway, Sonic's silence in the games wasn't a region-locked trait. Playing the classics in Japan was analogous to playing them in the US regardless of other media which means no matter where you were, chances are you didn't hear Sonic talking when you played any of the games. Also, an intention's validity isn't inherently based on the availability of resources or the passage of time. It's still very much logical to say that Sonic was meant to be a silent protagonist in the classics but that simply changed with Adventure along with things like the character designs. Saying otherwise opens up a Pandora's Box even I wouldn't touch. You could extend the logic to things like the Classic designs as a whole, signature art and music styles, and classic physics, because these were pretty much abandoned when Adventure hit the scene too.

Haha, I'll do my best to answer these directly, though I'm not the best at explaining things.

1. While all the focus on it for this discussion make it seem like it's THAT important of a character trait of Sonic himself, it overall isn't. It's more like a secondary one. I'd say his primary traits are his impatience, his impulsiveness, and his need to smack down oppression anywhere. These were able to be focused on better through actions, so that's the approach that was taken. Considering the options they had, it was probably the best way to go about it.

2. I can't answer that question for gaming as a whole, I don't have that knowledge. In the specific case of Sonic, there were very few games on these platforms, and even fewer that weren't ports. Sonic 3D blast was an upscaled port of the Genesis one that really only used the Saturn hardware for music and the special stage engine, Sonic R was a racing game that had no plot, and Sonic Jam was a compilation. As for Chaotix, I'm still learning about that whole situation, so I'm not the best to answer. As for the PC, I understand that there's some sort of schoolhouse game in which sonic gives you various tasks. This is one of the instances they took advantage of the chance to use full dialogue, even though he sounds like a chipmunk.

3. You can sort of see 1. for this. It wasn't what needed focus at the time, so unless it was easily possible, it wasn't done. On the other hand, I haven't seen any hints that he was ever intended to be silent either. I know there's something they say about this particular line of thinking, but the hell if I know what it is.

1. Go back to my first response. Your claim that they took advantage of nearly every opportunity to use dialogue suggests nothing less than an intention to make it a primary trait. Thus, to say it's "not that important" regardless of this discussion's tone conflicts with your assertions.

2. Sonic 3D Blast actually includes text in the way I've been detailing, so no need to try and explain it. =P Also, while R was a plotless racing game, it was a plotless racing game with songs that possessed full lyrical accompaniment. If they could do that, why not even any hoops and hollers recorded from some random joes and janes in the studio when it was a chance Sega clearly taken; same with Fighters?

3. That's irrelevant; a lot of the information we have about Sonic's conceptual beginnings is unnecessary to the games' development cycles, but they chose to indulge us in it anyways for knowledge's sake. Something that would be as ideology-shattering to some people as "We wanted Sonic to talk more often before Adventure but couldn't do so because our consoles' sound tech was bunk and, well, we didn't think of text" certainly wouldn't have been left out if it was true, but it's not, hence why Sega are actively acknowledging this matter with Generations.

@ Kintor: While advertising campaigns are meant to sell a product, that doesn't mean they always reflect accurately on that product. Regardless, whatever the advertising displayed to the folks to get them to buy the product is as irrelevant to my point like the shows and comics are, a point which I believe is just a simple observation at this point-

Classic Sonic didn't talk for 99% of the time in the games. This is easily provable by just playing the games. Not only did Sega arguably not take advantage of every opportunity to use or convey dialogue in the games, but they are acknowledging his overwhelming silence during the era with Generations. Ergo, the viewpoint that Classic Sonic in the games didn't talk isn't necessarily fueled by deluded nostalgia. It's primarily fueled by the fact that Classic Sonic simply didn't talk for 99% of the time in the games.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Kintor]

@ Kintor: While advertising campaigns are meant to sell a product, that doesn't mean they always reflect accurately on that product. Regardless, whatever the advertising displayed to the folks to get them to buy the product is as irrelevant to my point like the shows and comics are, a point which I believe is just a simple observation at this point-

Classic Sonic didn't talk for 99% of the time in the games. This is easily provable by just playing the games. Not only did Sega arguably not take advantage of every opportunity to use or convey dialogue in the games, but they are acknowledging his overwhelming silence during the era with Generations. Ergo, the viewpoint that Classic Sonic in the games didn't talk isn't necessarily fueled by deluded nostalgia. It's primarily fueled by the fact that Classic Sonic simply didn't talk for 99% of the time in the games.

As I said before, Sonic is more then a video game character. By looking solely at the games themselves you get an incomplete picture of Sonic; such a focused viewpoint inadvertently downplays the atmosphere of the 90s, the popular culture environment that helped to create the Sonic that we all know today. Suffice to say, the original video games were very limited in their capacity for storytelling. As others have rightly pointed out – it was simply not practical to include much in the way of voice work in the old Sonic games. Just putting the famous Sega ‘scream’ at the title screen was a costly decision, Sonic Team had to sacrifice many superfluous animations to make sure that Sonic 1 could fit on the cartridge. Even so, Sega did include voice work at the very first available opportunity; Sonic CD at last gave Sonic some sound files – the greater storage capacity of the Sega CD is what made this technological innovation possible. The whole point of Sonic 1 was that it was designed to push the Megadrive to it’s limits, to create the most sophisticated game possible (‘Blast Processing’ etc) and in doing so show up Nintendo. Had Sega been able to include voice work in the very first Sonic game I guarantee that they would have done so. Having a game with full dialogue back in 1991 would have been a masterstroke – another technological tool that Sega would have used to best affect in order to place themselves above and beyond the competition.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Kintor

[Nepenthe]

I repeat, I'm not concerned with the Sonic franchise as a whole because my argument is only addressing a specific iteration of the character that exists regardless, so continued allusions to that and popular culture are irrelevant.

My argument isn't narrowed down to voice acting in just the classics either. I've continually made it clear that I'd accept in-game text from any title before 1999 as valid displays of dialogue in light of the technological hindrances with voice acting. We don't see it that much either- only once, apparently- even though it was doable on the Genesis, which furthers my suspicion that the lack of dialogue in the games was an intentional decision.

And overall, the overwhelming lack of speech in the games before SA1, along with Sega's own acknowledgement of Classic Sonic's silence, further makes me conclude that a silent Classic Sonic is as valid a characterization as one that talks in the comics, shows, and commercials, and not one rooted in nostalgic delusion.

[Kintor]

Sonic is Sega’s mascot, this means that he serves a sort of public relations role above and beyond what you would expect from a normal video game character. Far from just ensuring his game sold well enough Sonic’s ‘job’ so to speak was to sell the Megadrive as the superior video game console and sell Sega as the cooler video game company. Sonic’s appearances in other media were crucial to Sega’s ambitions for the character. During the 90s Sega was eager to make people aware of Sonic anyway they could, even as this ultimately meant placing Sonic’s image on everything from race cars to cans of soup. Both the comics and TVs were important this respect as well, they helped to give Sonic a voice and develop his character at time when the average video game hardware made such comparatively advanced storytelling simply unfeasible. Meanwhile, the TV ads (in which Sonic often spoke) helped define Sonic’s attitude further, people responding well to the talking blue hedgehog who had the audacity to call out Mario. Besides, it’s not if any single piece of Sonic media was enjoyed from a purely exclusive basis. A Sonic fan in the 90s could quite easily enjoy a combination of the comics, cartoons and video games at the time. Moreover, I go so far as to say that Sonic’s image in popular culture, people’s culture memory of Sonic from the early 90’s is nothing less then an amalgamation of all Sonic media. To the extent that what we have now as ‘Sonic the Hedgehog’ is a sort of meta character; an idea that borrowed and ultimately evolved from every piece of previous Sonic media, even as there has been slight differences in Sonic’s character and the style of storytelling seen over the years.

[Nepenthe]

Jeebus, dude. None of what you're talking about even matters. Just about everything you said thus far to me in this topic is red herrings and rigmarole, a complete and utter failure to address my argument which in its simplest form is this: Sonic didn't talk or use text in the overwhelming majority of the classic era games, and Sega acknowledges this fact as true primarily with the decision to keep him silent in Generations despite the tech, budget, and opportunity to do so, therefore a mute Classic Sonic is a valid characterization. I'm getting right tired with repeating myself.

[Voyant]

Just saying my 2 cents:

The outrage the fanbase would have if Classic Sonic spoke would be outrageous. As much as I really don't care I'm glad C. Sonic is mute, so I wouldn't have to hear hardcore retro people and critics complain about it EVERY day and every preview until the game was released...and then after that they will still bitch even if SG has a excellent script..

If I was SEGA I would have taken the safest route too.

[Djawed]

Sonic was mute in super smash bros brawl and I loved it. (apart from a few words like "ill show you huhuuuhh!!", which was pretty cool I guess.)

I like sonic being mute. It's not like it made sonic cd's and sonic unleashed's first half(which was actually the best) intro less entertaining. Music and facial expressions can go really well together and can entertain alot more if done right. Silent characters cause for a lot of redundant conversations to be avoided and to be filled with more interesting imagary. He may have had a voice in a few shows or even in the sonic OVA. But i'm fine with just expressions and some music to acompany it.(similar to night of the werehog)

Edited July 26, 2011 by Jaouad

[Kintor]

Jeebus, dude. None of what you're talking about even matters. Just about everything you said thus far to me in this topic is red herrings and rigmarole, a complete and utter failure to address my argument which in its simplest form is this: Sonic didn't talk or use text in the overwhelming majority of the classic era games, and Sega acknowledges this fact as true primarily with the decision to keep him silent in Generations despite the tech, budget, and opportunity to do so, therefore a mute Classic Sonic is a valid characterization. I'm getting right tired with repeating myself.

Please, at least show my arguments a little more respect then this. In the simplest terms possible I’m saying to you that you should reconsider your positions entirely. That truthfully, when you look at the past and everything that Sega has done, Sega never intended to create their series of Sonic video games in isolation from the rest of the world. Far from it, Sega’s ambitions with the character were to make Sonic a celebrity; a force of personality that could rival the charismatic appeal of Michael Jackson (before his downfall) but at the same time would be a celebrity totally associated with Sega and nobody else. The video games were naturally a key part of this plan; Sega was after all a hardware and software developer. However, Sega made an awful lot of money from other Sonic merchandise at the same time. To that end, it didn’t particularly matter how people first became interested in Sonic so much as they were interested at all in the first place. After all, people who started watching the cartoons could quite plausible become interested in the games; while people who first played the games were perhaps more likely to sit down and watch an episode of SATAM or ASOTH. In fact, I argue that Sonic is not a video game character at all – Sonic the Hedgehog is a popular culture phenomenon. He just happens have a series of successful video games as a sizeable part of his revenues.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Kintor

[Blacklightning]

Nepenthe, aren't you forgetting something here? This is part of the manual for Sonic CD, containing a prologue in which both Sonic and Amy are in fact given explicit dialogue, thereby contradicting your claim that Sonic was mute by design! Nostaliga-derived or otherwise, mute Sonic is an image derived by the fans and not the developers - the fact that the classic iteration in Generations doesn't speak doesn't necessarily refute this claim, however, so much as confirm the fact they're conforming to this fan-made image for the sake of acknowledging them, in much the same way that the "Mighty and Ray - Missing" poster in City Escape does. Is that not essentially the entire reason the game exists - to acknowledge the fans?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sonic was mute in super smash bros brawl and I loved it. (apart from a few words like "ill show you huhuuuhh!!", which was pretty cool I guess.)

Every damn character was mute, even the ones that weren't made to be mute. So that doesn't mean jack regarding whether Sonic was suppose to be mute, and is a weak argument to begin with.

And even going by that logic, characters that were made to be mute were given spoken lines. You couldn't have picked a worst example than that.

I like sonic being mute. It's not like it made sonic cd's intro less interesting. Music and facial expressions can go really well together.

As they can with words.

A sentence can say a few words, a picture can say a thousand words, and animation can say a million. Honestly, the matter isn't really about a character speaking than a character having a well made character.

[Djawed]

Every damn character was mute, even the ones that weren't made to be mute. So that doesn't mean jack regarding whether Sonic was suppose to be mute, and is a weak argument to begin with.

And even going by that logic, characters that were made to be mute were given spoken lines. You couldn't have picked a worst example than that.

As they can with words.

A sentence can say a few words, a picture can say a thousand words, and animation can say a million. Honestly, the matter isn't really about a character speaking than a character having a well made character.

Lol, it was just my views on it. I edited my post a bit to give a clearer explenation. Silent expression just apeals more to me which is mostly why nintendo characters have stayed just as iconic. Just look at what happened to Samus when she started talking. It's not that I dislike voice acting, but with specifically some characters I would prefer them to be silent.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Jaouad

[Nepenthe]

Nepenthe, aren't you forgetting something here? This is part of the manual for Sonic CD, containing a prologue in which both Sonic and Amy are in fact given explicit dialogue, thereby contradicting your claim that Sonic was mute by design! Nostaliga-derived or otherwise, mute Sonic is an image derived by the fans and not the developers - the fact that the classic iteration in Generations doesn't speak doesn't necessarily refute this claim, however, so much as confirm the fact they're conforming to this fan-made image for the sake of acknowledging them, in much the same way that the "Mighty and Ray - Missing" poster in City Escape does. Is that not essentially the entire reason the game exists - to acknowledge the fans?

Hardly forgetting a thing. My argument was not taking into account the manuals simply because they're full of errors counteracted by observation of the games themselves that make them unreliable (Amy's name change to Princess Sally, roboticization, changing ages, etc.). Besides, I could just as easily refute that by noting all the manuals that detail the story without the involvement of dialogue, but I'm not interesting in back and forth regarding instruction books because I've already put forth a specific parameter to debunk my argument plenty of times which people continue to dart around:

I merely want in-game examples from all of the titles before 1999, spin-off or otherwise, that show the cast talking which can be actual dialogue examples or text prompts, and I'm hoping for the summation of these examples to dwarf the amount of time the cast spent with their mouths shut, otherwise dialogue in the classic games continues to remain the exception instead of the rule. I think that's plenty fair, if a tall order nonetheless.

Furthermore, Generations exists for many reasons beyond fan service as it has been pounded into my head by level list proponents. But as I implied before, saying that Classic Sonic's state of being mute is nothing but fan-fodder, e.g. it is inaccurate, leads to the conclusion that Modern Sonic's ability to talk is more accurate, which opens up a whole can of worms about the classic games that, in any other conversation, would be considered ludicrous.

For example, the same logic could be used to completely ignore classic physics and any level of influence they can have on the modern games on the basis that they were largely abandoned by the main 3D installments and thus aren't "true" anymore. Classic Sonic's design is now fundamentally invalidated too simply because it was changed. It's a big slippery slope to me.

Also, it's past 5, so I'm going to bed. Please everyone, don't dogpile on me until I wake up. Kicking a girl while she's down is unfair. >(

Edited July 26, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Scar]

Lol, it was just my views on it. I edited my post a bit to give a clearer explenation. Silent expression just apeals more to me which is mostly why nintendo characters have stayed just as iconic. Just look at what happened to Samus when she started talking.

That's frighteningly poor logic.

People didn't have a problem with Other M because Samus started talking. No, they had a problem, because of what she said and how she said it. The script was poor to average at best, and the acting was horrifyingly bland and uninteresting. Lets not even get started with the story.

Also, I'd like to add, that in the Galaxy games, Mario shows literally almost no expression. Half the time, he's just staring into space, or staring at the character who's talking to him. The only Mario character to have shown any kind of expression is Luigi, in Luigi's Mansion.

That's besides the point though.

For a character like Sonic, I'd prefer they keep the voices and the dialogue. However, I'd much appriciate it if they used a combination of silent expression and voice-work. See the characters have voices to converse with each other, but that doesn't mean they need to talk all the time. They can talk to have conversations and to develop character. They should not talk to advance the plot, unless absolutely necessary. Get the characters to express via character animations a little more. Unleashed was getting there with the animations.

[Djawed]

It's not poor logic, it's just an example. Samus could've probably been portrayed better if the voice acting and script were better, but meh. It kept the metroid prime series very mysterious, and for the best. Metroid prime would've probably not felt the same were there to be voices. Also I don't know what the rest of the reply was all about as I do not disagree with anyone. My preferences just lie somewhere else.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Jaouad

[Blacklightning]

Hardly forgetting a thing. My argument was not taking into account the manuals simply because they're full of errors counteracted by observation of the games themselves that make them unreliable (Amy's name change to Princess Sally, roboticization, changing ages, etc.).

If any such errors exist in the given example you're free to point them out, but I see no such thing here. The events depicted are pretty much perfectly accurate to the game's events, and even in other locales the Princess Sally bit was pretty much the only incorrect bit of note.

Also, if you need any more convincing than that that the addition of dialogue wasn't a stuff-up by localization, here's the Jap version, translated for your convenience.

EDIT: Oh look, I found more.

Sonic & Knux

Sonic R

Sonic Spinball

Sonic 1

Sonic 2

Sonic 3

All in their original Japanese context. All with explicit dialogue. If anything, the removal of dialogue was a localization error. Thank you Sonic Retro for translating this stuff by the way, you guys are awesome.

Besides, I could just as easily refute that by noting all the manuals that detail the story without the involvement of dialogue

The absence of dialogue in the manuals doesn't necessarily prove your point so much as imply oversight. The thing is, had Classic Sonic not been intended as a speaking character they never would've written any dialogue at all, and the fact that they took the trouble to do it, even once, still speaks to the contrary.

I merely want in-game examples from all of the titles before 1999, spin-off or otherwise, that show the cast talking which can be actual dialogue examples or text prompts, and I'm hoping for the summation of these examples to dwarf the amount of time the cast spent with their mouths shut

Now wait just a minute there. Nobody here ever implied that Classic Sonic was a blabbermouth, just that he's a speaking character at all. Appreciate you putting words in my mouth though.

Here's the thing though - a lot of things about the classic games are usually, in some vauge description, open to interpretation, and if we're to make assumptions based solely on what we see explicitly in the games themselves it leads to a lot of silly conclusions. Just to name one: Sonic and Eggman are the only two sentient beings ever sighted in the game - does that mean they're the entire planet's population? Well of course not, because if nothing else population is still strongly implied by the fact several zones have cities in them, or are cities in themselves. It's not terribly farfetched to say communication is implied, even when gameplay doesn't explicitly show it, when you can already derive so much from it without the game shoving it in your face.

I can only concede to your point on the basis that it's a gameplay decision, not a character based one. Which isn't really saying much because the game in general wasn't given dialogue, and it's never argued that anyone else was mute by design.

But as I implied before, saying that Classic Sonic's state of being mute is nothing but fan-fodder, e.g. it is inaccurate, leads to the conclusion that Modern Sonic's ability to talk is more accurate, which opens up a whole can of worms about the classic games that, in any other conversation, would be considered ludicrous.

Then isn't it a good thing nobody's made that comparison yet? Correct me if I'm wrong of course. Still appreciate the strawman though, but it's not like we're making this argument for the sole reason that he speaks now. Edited July 26, 2011 by Blacklightning

[Scar]

It's not poor logic, it's just an example. Samus could've probably been portrayed better if the voice acting and script were better, but meh, it kept the metroid prime series very mysterious, and for the best.

Yes, it was just an example, but the way you constructed the sentence, made it sound like, you were using it as a reason for why Sonic and other such mascots should remain silent. You also said that Nintendo's mascots have remained iconic, because they're silent. No. They're iconic, because they have had some excellent games. The reason stuff like Ratchet and Clank aren't as iconic, is because they haven't been around as long as the likes of Mario and Zelda.

Inspite of his recent mediocrity, Sonic is still an icon of the gaming industry.

Metroid prime would've probably not felt the same were there to be voices. Also I don't know what the rest of the reply was all about as I do not disagree with anyone. My preferences just lie somewhere else.

No it wouldn't have been. The only character which could speak in Prime, was Samus. It made sense that she didn't talk, because there was nobody to talk to. I'm sure in a different situation, it wouldn't ruin the games for her to talk, so long as she had some other characters to talk to, and the script isn't shit.

[Djawed]

No it wouldn't have been. The only character which could speak in Prime, was Samus. It made sense that she didn't talk, because there was nobody to talk to. I'm sure in a different situation, it wouldn't ruin the games for her to talk, so long as she had some other characters to talk to, and the script isn't shit.

She did have someone to talk to in the third game, yet she didn't so there goes your argument. If you look at it from the perspective to what it would add, I think it's for the better they keep some characters silent. What I love most about nintendo's design phylosify is that the experience of the player doesn't have to come from voice acting conversations and all that stuff. It mostly comes from imagery which imo has a very magical outcome(same with sonic 3 and knuckles). It's hard to explain and I wonder what they would reply if they would to be asked the question to why they keep em silent. It probably has to do with the player himself filling in the blankness. I love it personally.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Jaouad