Time to discuss the plot! Already!

[Tobbii]

Some people hated it because Shadow had more plot focus than Sonic(Ya know, the main character).

[Sega DogTagz]

Just jumping into the conversation here to say that Silver pretty much had more story than any of them.

Debatable. Silver was a backseat driver for much of his own plot (he never really did get around to actually accomplishing 2 of the 3 goals he set out to do in that game). Shadow on the other hand basically dictated how the entire storyline would play out via his clashes with Mephilies and initiative to head into the past.... to say nothing of releasing Mephilies in the first place.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And let us not forget SA2's gaping plotholes, folks. I think Unleashed was a bit more solid, from what I can remember.

Examples? If you're going to call something out, at least tell us the details. Anyone can throw "gaping plotholes" at anything.

Some of us, however, are saying that Sonic is goofy and simplistic. Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Labyrinth, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Triple Trouble, Tails' Sky Patrol, Tails' Adventure, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Advance, Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Advance 3, Sonic Unleashed,and Sonic Colors show this.

Is that not enough for you?

It shouldn't be. For one, that's not based on fact, it's based on preference. Sonic is Sonic, he can be as goofy, serious, light, dark, simple, or as complex as he (or rather the developers) chooses to be provided that the quality and execution is delivered decently to where these elements aren't picked out as a problem.

Secondly, your claim isn't very solid as you're really just going though only the games that help your point and shirking the ones that do otherwise, such as the spin-offs Secret Rings and Black Knight. I may not know why you left them out, but I will say that a number of those games are ones many people hardly ever talk about.

And to further stimulate debate, let me bring these details to the discussion:

• Sonic's 1 - Knuckles were simple only because of technology limiatations, and for the fact that video games as a whole during that period were intensely focused on gameplay with very few excpetions.
  
• Sonic the Fighters does not show that Sonic was meant to be simple. First off it's a fighting game, and every fighting game even to this day hardly bothers with making complex plots in the first place.
  
• Sonic Labyrinth, Triple Trouble, Tails' Sky Patrol, and Tails' Adventure aren't very strong examples on the count of what I said earlier regarding the classics. Furthermore, this is a case of reaching for straws in proving a point that Sonic was meant to be simple, and yet they try something completely different from what we've known of Sonic. That really comes off as hypocritical when you consider that: that it's okay for them to differ in gameplay, but not in storytelling. Now obviously you didn't say any of that that, but this is something you should've had in mind before using them as an example. I'm confident that's one of the central reasons why people barely bring them into the argument the first place.
  
• Heroes' simplicity shot itself in the foot when was not only incoherent, but it barely explained even the basic details that go with storytelling. That's a case of oversimplifying to the point that people don't know what's going on or why these events lead to this point, and there's nothing encouraging them to keep up with the plots other than what they've already seen happen. And that's just one of the problems.
  
• Unleashed wasn't simple, so don't even try to make that claim. It was more streamlined than the adventures, but it was still around their level and is nowhere near as simple as you make it out to be.
  
• While Colors may be more simple than Unleashed (although far more complex than Heroes), it's simplicity isn't why people appreciate it. It's coherence and well-written plot were the reasons, which only serve as an example that the real argument is story quality, not simplicity or complexity. The fact that it still gathers criticism, says quite a lot, and it isn't always because of it not being complex enough.
  
• The Advances would be a case of people not caring about the plot and more interested in the gameplay. There's hardly a story to them for us to bother discussing them and they're used much less than even the classics as an example of simple storytelling.
  

Both of you don't to realize that Sonic isn't dictated by simplicity or complexity in terms of the plot. Were that even the case we wouldn't have any differences in the first place, but that apparently doesn't seem to be so. That's not saying he can't be simple or complex, but that one does not truly rule over Sonic any more than the other as they have different influences.

If these games above are meant to represent where Sonic is simple, games like the Adventures, Secret Rings, Black Knight, Chronicles (even if non-canon), and Unleashed equally serve to represent where Sonic can be complex. The only difference is in numbers, quality, and - if we wanted to stretch this - budget.

And with that said, Shadow and Sonic 06 show how poor storytelling and exploring new elements haphazardly can serve to hurt the franchise than to help it. The key, once again, is quality and execution.

No it didn't. It gave us Shadow's past and Gerald's backstory. Hell, the only things Eggman even does in the story are awakening Shadow, being Gerald's grandson, and playing through the first part of Cannon's Core. Aside from that, he literally does nothing.

Eggman did FAR more than that.

He plows through the military to awaken Shadow, he orchestrates the entire scheme to conquer the world serving as his team's tactician, he distracts the military single handedly while Rouge steals the Emeralds before Shadow sets the explosives to destroy the island, he blows up the moon just to show off what he is now capable of, he outsmarts the Tails in revealing their plan to stop him, and even when Tails defeats him he gets away with the last emerald to proceed in what he thought would finalize his plans.

That's a whole lot of doing nothing for Eggman.

Edited May 30, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sami]

It shouldn't be. For one, that's not based on fact, it's based on preference. Sonic is Sonic, he can be as goofy, serious, light, dark, simple, or as complex as he (or rather the developers) chooses to be provided that the quality and execution is delivered decently to where these elements aren't picked out as a problem.

I know this, and I've said it before. I was simply countering his claim that Sonic was not goofy and simplistic, with the same exact method he used. He said Sonic was not goofy and simplistic by using two games as examples. I said Sonic is goofy and simplistic by using seventeen games as examples.

Simplicity isn't always good (Heroes, as you said, is an example of this), but it's been used far more commonly in the series than dark and serious stories (not to mention I'll always prefer it anyway).

Secondly, your claim isn't very solid as you're really just going though only the games that help your point and shirking the ones that do otherwise, such as the spin-offs Secret Rings and Black Knight. I may not know why you left them out, but I will say that a number of those games are ones many people hardly ever talk about.

Again, that was my intention. He wanted to say Sonic is serious by listing off examples of serious games. I countered with a list several times larger than his.

If these games above are meant to represent where Sonic is simple, games like the Adventures, Secret Rings, Black Knight, Chronicles (even if non-canon), and Unleashed equally serve to represent where Sonic can be complex. The only difference is in numbers, quality, and - if we wanted to stretch this - budget.

And with that said, Shadow and Sonic 06 show how poor storytelling and exploring new elements haphazardly can serve to hurt the franchise than to help it. The key, once again, is quality and execution.

Irrelevant. He claims that Sonic is serious. I used 17 examples of games that aren't dark and serious. I'm not saying Sonic is lighthearted at all times no questions asked; those other games you talked about refute that. I'm saying that the opposite claim; "Sonic is serious", is false.

Eggman did FAR more than that.

He plows through the military to awaken Shadow, he orchestrates the entire scheme to conquer the world serving as his team's tactician, he distracts the military single handedly while Rouge steals the Emeralds before Shadow sets the explosives to destroy the island, he blows up the moon just to show off what he is now capable of, he outsmarts the Tails in revealing their plan to stop him, and even when Tails defeats him he gets away with the last emerald to proceed in what he thought would finalize his plans.

That's a whole lot of doing nothing for Eggman.

Alright, so I was grasping when I said that. Doesn't mean he did his job as a good villain though, considering he was overthrown by a dead guy and his pet lizard.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I know this, and I've said it before. I was simply countering his claim that Sonic was not goofy and simplistic, with the same exact method he used. He said Sonic was not goofy and simplistic by using two games as examples. I said Sonic is goofy and simplistic by using seventeen games as examples.

I can see that (I bet you got that from me ). I wouldn't stop you from using as many examples as you can since I do it myself, but I would advise you to be careful of what examples you use, such as Tails' Skyway Patrol, Tails' Adventure, Sonic Labyrinth, and Triple Trouble. Digging that far encourages someone else to go further and then they may try to twist details to support their argument. That's why I always try to fight for the middle ground to limit people from twisting the details; only the more extreme people would try fight against it.

Simplicity isn't always good (Heroes, as you said, is an example of this), but it's been used far more commonly in the series than dark and serious stories (not to mention I'll always prefer it anyway).

And let me add that although it holds as the majority, sheer numbers aren't the whole factor. You can prefer it all you want, but that doesn't give it much water. That and preference can be used against you if you're not careful, although I'm sure you're just as aware of that as I am, so I guess that shouldn't be a surprise.

Again, that was my intention. He wanted to say Sonic is serious by listing off examples of serious games. I countered with a list several times larger than his.

I wonder what his argument would've been if you had just used ShTH alone as an example of how being over-serious can end up being a problem for this series? If you noticed, he didn't bother using that game in his argument, so it makes you wonder why, doesn't it?

I'd bet you would've made a bigger impact with just that one example that follows his exact point while destroying his argument at the same time.

Irrelevant. He claims that Sonic is serious. I used 17 examples of games that aren't dark and serious. I'm not saying Sonic is lighthearted at all times no questions asked; those other games you talked about refute that. I'm saying that the opposite claim; "Sonic is serious", is false.

That's why I included him in the argument as well. I'll admit that I didn't bother to quote him when I should have, but both of you appeared to be skewing the details, so I stepped in to balance it.

Alright, so I was grasping when I said that. Doesn't mean he did his job as a good villain though, considering he was overthrown by a dead guy and his pet lizard.

Actually, yes it does considering the very things I just told to you. A bad villain would've never been able to pull any of that off decently, and a good villain would've still been overthrown at the very last possible moment when he would've won if he wasn't aware of the agenda in the first place.

I'd say you're still grasping because that's a very shallow claim for you to play to discredit Eggman's worth as a villain in that game.

[Mega]

Stuff like Gerald rewriting Shadow's memories when he was stuck in a cell come to mind. I'd have to dig for the post that mentions the rest, but most of it's about Shadow. :|a

[DC111]

Irrelevant. He claims that Sonic is serious. I used 17 examples of games that aren't dark and serious.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but really, a great deal of those games you mentioned were limited by technology. Whether or not those stories were simple or complex (light or dark, funny or serious, shallow or deep, etc...) is something only the developers of the game know. It looked simple because nobody spoke and there was really no technological way to portray a story aside from watching the characters' actions. But look at Scrap Brain, and the Death Egg, for example. I can't imagine either of those places being portrayed lightheartedly, considering what was going on. Perhaps I'm grasping a bit by saying I think some of the mainstream classics were deeper/more complex than they look, but then, anyone who says the classics were simple is grasping too. Fact is, we don't know. It's lost in the limitations of technology.

[Diogenes]

I understand the point you're trying to make, but really, a great deal of those games you mentioned were limited by technology. Whether or not those stories were simple or complex (light or dark, funny or serious, shallow or deep, etc...) is something only the developers of the game know.

If that were true, the people responsible should have been fired for incompetence. Any halfway decent game can establish its tone through the graphics, music, text, etc. regardless of the technology involved. Are you going to tell me that Super Mario Bros may have actually been intended as a grim and gritty exploration of war in a land of magic and fantasy, but we just can't tell because of the limited technology?

But look at Scrap Brain, and the Death Egg, for example. I can't imagine either of those places being portrayed lightheartedly, considering what was going on.

They certainly aren't at a Telletubbies level, but neither are they grimdark. With a few exceptions, Sonic game stories generally fall into a Saturday morning action show sort of tone. Cartoon hero fights cartoon villain to save cartoon world.

[ChikaBoing]

And let us not forget SA2's gaping plotholes, folks. I think Unleashed was a bit more solid, from what I can remember.

SA2 still made more sense overall.

[EXshad]

SA2 still made more sense overall.

Not according to that poor son of a bitch

...I kid, I kid, I liked the story of Sonic Adventure 2 quite a lot, and it's one of the few Sonic games which has a plot I still enjoy today, as well as enjoyed when I was a kid. In fact, I was disappointed at how Heroes threw all that out the window.

ANYHOW, I still stand by my idea that Dr. Eggman opens a portal to contact his past self in a joint effort to eliminate Sonic from history, as part of his "revenge plan" mentioned at the end of Sonic Colors. Maybe Eggman uses a Chaos Control in the same manner as what was portrayed in Sonic 2006, with it being able to create a dimensional rift?

But maybe the 2 Eggmen work together to create the most diabolical and evil creation they can muster. Perhaps........

He could be created for the sole purpose of eliminating Sonic forever, but maybe this backfires, and he sees the best and most efficient way of doing that is to destroy Sonic's entire history, and all those in it, including the 2 Eggmen. So, he opens portals to different times, using the opposing power of 2 sets of Chaos Emeralds (again, like in Sonic 2006), captures Sonic's friends, and scatters them throughout history to ensnare Sonic in a trap of some sort.

I dunno, I'm probably wrong, but again: it's fun to imagine Plus, it could maybe play out like the OVA, where he's really being controlled by Eggman anyway, and his creation was part of a larger plan, perhaps?

Edited May 30, 2011 by EXshad

[KHCast]

Not according to that poor son of a bitch

...I kid, I kid, I liked the story of Sonic Adventure 2 quite a lot, and it's one of the few Sonic games which has a plot I still enjoy today, as well as enjoyed when I was a kid. In fact, I was disappointed at how Heroes threw all that out the window.

ANYHOW, I still stand by my idea that Dr. Eggman opens a portal to contact his past self in a joint effort to eliminate Sonic from history, as part of his "revenge plan" mentioned at the end of Sonic Colors. Maybe Eggman uses a Chaos Control in the same manner as what was portrayed in Sonic 2006, with it being able to create a dimensional rift?

But maybe the 2 Eggmen work together to create the most diabolical and evil creation they can muster. Perhaps........

He could be created for the sole purpose of eliminating Sonic forever, but maybe this backfires, and he sees the best and most efficient way of doing that is to destroy Sonic's entire history, and all those in it, including the 2 Eggmen. So, he opens portals to different times, using the opposing power of 2 sets of Chaos Emeralds (again, like in Sonic 2006), captures Sonic's friends, and scatters them throughout history to ensnare Sonic in a trap of some sort.

I dunno, I'm probably wrong, but again: it's fun to imagine Plus, it could maybe play out like the OVA, where he's really being controlled by Eggman anyway, and his creation was part of a larger plan, perhaps?

Edited May 31, 2011 by dudehedgehogfan1996

[Tobbii]

Sega could be pulling our leg. Like the insisting that Sonic indeed was THE cause for Iblis when the E3 trailer arrived, rather than him dying being the cause. It might be something that seems to be a new villain but in the end isn't.

[Mega]

Or maybe it's someone who's been secretly plotting dastardly schemes all along. Someone like...

[Tobbii]

I could see Omochao destroying the entire Sonic universe.

[ChikaBoing]

I could see Omochao destroying the entire Sonic universe.

Edited May 31, 2011 by ChikaBoing

[Tobbii]

And thus, the entire SegaSonic canon got its best plot-twist ever.

[Sanek ULF]

Some of us, however, are saying that Sonic is goofy and simplistic. Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Labyrinth, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Triple Trouble, Tails' Sky Patrol, Tails' Adventure, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Advance, Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Advance 3, Sonic Unleashed, and Sonic Colors show this.

Is that not enough for you?

No. ChaosSupremeSonic already answered on this.

I was simply countering his claim that Sonic was not goofy and simplistic, with the same exact method he used.

If that were true, the people responsible should have been fired for incompetence.

I'm already told in the begining of the talk that I mean 3D games, because they are not limited in telling plots by technology. And of course I don't require plots from Olympic Games and All-Stars Racing, I think you are understand why.

I have no idea what this means.

This means that comparing SA2 and SU plots "new character with mysterious past which sacrifices himself in the end" presented in both games, but in SU this is almost all valuable in plot.

No. Knuckles X Rouge is not only not "beloved by many fans" (seriously, where the fuck did you get that?), but it's also been retconned in favor of Shadow X Rouge.

I know many fans which love it.

Don't see it.

I see. Watching on Knuckles as carefully guardian of Master Emerald with mysterious past neither on clown, as he represents in last games, is very more interesting.

No it didn't. It gave us Shadow's past and Gerald's backstory. Hell, the only things Eggman even does in the story are awakening Shadow, being Gerald's grandson, and playing through the first part of Cannon's Core. Aside from that, he literally does nothing.

That's not all. Besides this story shows his feelings and also maybe small but telling about his past (I'm already quoted that earlier). It more interesting to know why he became evil neither to watch on stereotypycally villain which must be by the laws of genre.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxurbbN1adQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

We are now discussing the plot, not the gameplay. In classic's plots Tails never fight against Eggman by himself, he was always beyond the Sonic's back. What you showed me It's only tribute to gameplay.

06 had many, many problems. Lack of polish, though the most prominent problem, isn't the only one. Not even close.

But all these problems not because there was Shadow. All these problems was because the game was incomplete.

I have no idea what this means.

That means that showing the growth of tempers of well-known characters more enriches Sonic world that showing tempers of characters on one game.

And Sonic Unleashed gave us Prof. Pickle who is somewhat loved by fans, and a little insight into how Sonic felt about his Werehog form. Remember the scene when Amy didn't recognize Sonic? Yeah that scene made Sonic act in a way that we've never seen before, so there's your depth. So tell me, what does SA2 do better than Unleashed in terms of story?

For Unleashed that scene with Amy is plus, but almost one besides already named. What does SA2 do better than Unleashed in terms of story I'm already told.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Sanek ULF

[Marcello]

No. Knuckles X Rouge is not only not "beloved by many fans" (seriously, where the fuck did you get that?), but it's also been retconned in favor of Shadow X Rouge.

No, it hasn't.

[EXshad]

But the problem in that idea while i like it is that Eggman/Robotnik isn't the one opening the Time holes it's some other NEW rival of Sonic.

But Metal Robotnik wouldn't be Robotnik/Eggman; just a rogue creation I still doubt that's what will happen, I was just having fun with the idea, but nonetheless...

[Blue Wisp]

Wait a second...

Time holes?

Crashing Sonic the Hedgehog: Bandicoot Generations

It all makes sense now.

[ProfessorZolo]

Sanek, I'm confused. It's partly I'm finding your wording a little difficult to understand. The other part, well, I'm not sure about that either.

But really, Sonic has never had a dark story, and doesn't really need one. The Adventure games... actually, just SA2 really, wasn't it? Anyway, they weer... er, it was one attempt to change the way the franchise was heading.

Now, I'm not gonna say the series is entirely free of seriousness, but it IS mainly about a speedy blue thing running through cartoon worlds to stop the big fat bad guy. I mean, it's always had dark overtones, right from the 1991 game, being the battle between nature and machine. Or it could actually have been more about humans versus nature, now that I think about it. And all of Sonic's little animal friends were getting trapped and used as power sources for robots.

Is that not dark to you?

Sonic 2, Eggman builds the Death Egg, a poorly disguised ripoff of the Deathstar. It is designed to... I dunno, destroy and enslave the world's populace. Which are all animals apparently, but that's not important.

Is THAT not dark to you?

Sonic 3&K- more Death Egg malarkey, AND Eggman steals the Master Emerald, causing Angel Island to crash into the sea. (Or does that only happen in adventure? Can't remember for the life of me)

Again, doesn't that seem dark, when you think about it? And all of that is plot.

See, what I think you're confusing for plot in SA2 is just a mass of dialogue. It's not much different from what Eggman has been doing this whole time, it's just more stated. The characters can TALK in SA2. The have full cutscenes. That's what pads the plot out. It's the way it's told. But really, the amount of plot, the seriousness of it is exactly the same.

More or less.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No. ChaosSupremeSonic already answered on this.

[Sanek ULF]

See, what I think you're confusing for plot in SA2 is just a mass of dialogue. It's not much different from what Eggman has been doing this whole time, it's just more stated. The characters can TALK in SA2. The have full cutscenes. That's what pads the plot out. It's the way it's told. But really, the amount of plot, the seriousness of it is exactly the same.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Sanek ULF

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

[Kuzu]

You do realize he was talking about the game being the problem, and not the character, right?

I was kind of talking about both; My first post referred to his game, and the second referred to how much more plot focus he had than Sonic.