Sonic's Greatest Rival

[MamboCat]

Apart from SatBK? I mean, I've never played the game but I've seen the cut scenes. It seemed to me that everyone else wanted him to run away but he was refusing to; therefore resulting in a power up of ridiculous proportions. Sheer will let him win?

 

Anyways, my point was more that he sees his rivals are better than him at something and yet somehow he manages to get through it and brushes it off as something "fun", "cool" or whatever. Being better at something means nothing to him.

Edited March 14, 2013 by MamboCat

[Kuzu]

I dunno, maybe I'm asking too much from the series, but I don't think it's too much to have a rivalry be more on even terms. I don't mind Sonic being so underpowered, but it's just kinda boring to watch because we all know Sonic is going to win.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I honestly wouldn't mind if Sonic won just because "he's the hero". Cheesy as it is, I actually kind of like that; the strength of the hero's will and the fact that he's fighting for the right things end up making up for a physical disadvantage. 

Yeah...maybe it's just because I've been watching and playing too many shows and games that are either deconstructive or offer something more cerebral than "he's the hero" because that has greatly worn me thin to the point of being sick of it. Or maybe because I'm getting tired of certain cheesy elements like that for some reason. *shrugs*

 

I don't mind the strength of the hero's will and determination, but at the same time I find it too shallow because when you have someone who can break mountains, warp the fabric of time and space, and psychokinesis next to a guy who can beat everyone even tho his only ability is running at Mach 1; it becomes kinda improbable for me to take in by comparison.

 

...which is why I advocate giving Sonic a new power to make up for it.

Edited March 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

I don't mind the strength of the hero's will and determination, but at the same time I find it too shallow because when you have someone who can break mountains, warp the fabric of time and space, and psychokinesis next to a guy who can beat everyone even tho his only ability is running at Mach 1; it becomes kinda improbable for me to take in by comparison.

Is that really shallow, though? Compared to the hero winning because...he's stronger?

Maybe it's because I'm a big idealistic softie at heart, but when you have the hero win through determination, it cuts to the heart of what the fight's really about. It's not some dispassionate numbers game where the one who's stronger, or faster, or has the right counterattack, will win. It's the good guy and the bad guy, the right way and the wrong way, two ideas competing to be recognized as the truth. And in an optimistic, idealistic work, "good" has power, so long as someone will stand up and fight for it. Hope wins over despair, love conquers hate, and so on...in a certain kind of story that's really what it all comes down to, and I can scarcely think of a better way to show it than for "good" to overcome impossible odds.

...which is why I advocate giving Sonic a new power to make up for it.

eeeehhhh...I don't really like characters getting new powers just to balance out the math.

[Kuzu]

I can understand Dio's point because the series is very much on the idealistic end of scale but yea, I'd like a much more credible reason.

I don't think Sonic needs anymore powers tho given that everyone has been able to get by without any additional abilities( Shadow being the obvious and most annoying exception) but refine the ones Sonic has.

If Sonic can't overpower his rivals, he can at least be more skilled than them something which seems up his alley.

[Mysterious X]

If a rivalry wasn't an archetypal conflict, it would become so stale by this point. A more powerful rival isn't necessarily one-sided, and unbeatable one is.

 

For classic example, Goku is obviously more powerful than Vegeta, but that doesn't stop Vegeta from being able to put him on his toes. There's more to a rivalry's quirk than sheer power alone.

 

Yup, not power alone, but abilities should match or at least be close, the point is, when it comes to Sonic, almost all his foes had great powers, even when he gets the overrated power of the Emeralds, let's take Perfect Chaos as an example in Sonic X, they both used the Emeralds and had terrific powers, yet Super Sonic in a few seconds finished off an immortal elemental creature! What? Yeah, Chaos is made of... Water? How can someone actually... Beat water?!

And, I suppose we can't bring Goku as an example, we all know that Goku is one of the most overrated characters in the universe, I mean... "IT'S OVER 9000 URGH!" and then he's down... That's the first point, the second is that Goku's power is keepin on increasin, until it's way over 9000, no it's not about power alone, but Is Vegeta smarter than Goku or faster? In my opinion Vegeta as Goku's rival is nothin more that a title, Cell or Frieza could be compared but not Vegeta.

 

I actually kind of like that; the strength of the hero's will and the fact that he's fighting for the right things end up making up for a physical disadvantage.

 

Well, as a matter of fact we only find that logic in movies and video games, but I don't think it's realistic... But we're not talkin about reality are we..?

Even so, I still agree with Ragna's point, we should see Sonic gettin beaten by someone at least once in a while, and I don't mean losin a battle and winnin the next for good, but like seriously losin! maybe then one of his friends will win the battle, defeat the bad guys and gets Sonic on his feet again.

 

 

It's the good guy and the bad guy, the right way and the wrong way, two ideas competing to be recognized as the truth. And in an optimistic, idealistic work, "good" has power, so long as someone will stand up and fight for it. Hope wins over despair, love conquers hate, and so on...in a certain kind of story that's really what it all comes down to, and I can scarcely think of a better way to show it than for "good" to overcome impossible odds.

 

I believe you're right, but also, 'powerful' defeats 'weak', 'experienced' wins 'ignorant' and 'fast' outruns 'slow', my point is, some person or character has a strong creed and deep ideology, but is as well weak (or weaker than his foes) and inexperienced, the physical power of the enemy should win against the power of idea, have you watched V for Vendetta? A great movie, but sayin "This mask is an idea, and ideas are bullet proof" is rather exaggerated and unreal.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Mysterious X

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Is that really shallow, though? Compared to the hero winning because...he's stronger?

Yeah...? Somewhat.

 

Maybe it's because I'm a big idealistic softie at heart, but when you have the hero win through determination, it cuts to the heart of what the fight's really about. It's not some dispassionate numbers game where the one who's stronger, or faster, or has the right counterattack, will win. It's the good guy and the bad guy, the right way and the wrong way, two ideas competing to be recognized as the truth. And in an optimistic, idealistic work, "good" has power, so long as someone will stand up and fight for it. Hope wins over despair, love conquers hate, and so on...in a certain kind of story that's really what it all comes down to, and I can scarcely think of a better way to show it than for "good" to overcome impossible odds.

See, I prefer a more realist look into things. Will power/determination is very strong, and being stubborn as hell can get you pretty damn far when you know how to use it. But everything has a weakness and a strength to it, or at the very least should.

 

You can have as much will power as you want, and it may get you to where you're going; but if it ends up costing you something you didn't see down the line, that's when it becomes a question of whether it was worth the will to get there. Conversely, it could benefit you more than you could have imagined if you were more than prepared to sacrifice something (hopefully not someone) along the road, and inversely you could end up losing something because you lacked the will to reach it.

 

And the same applies for stubbornness.

 

I happen to like idealism, but it's nature usually requires less of a sacrifice in achieving the goals. And I see some great storytelling potential and value when there's more sacrifice to test reslience and whether or not the structure can (or rather "how it should") be rebuilt when it breaks. Which is why I like idealistic works that manage to pull of more sacrifices than normal, such as the Avatar: The Last Airbender series (bar it's Deus Ex Machina's near the ends)

 

Applying this to Sonic: while Sonic may not have as much power as the other rivals, he can definitely be able to outmanuver them. What good is all the power when you can't hit them? When you throw more elements into the equation than just strength and will, it allows more flexibility and can potentially become interesting; so some can have more strength, more speed, more power, but where's the skill and resourcefulness? Where's the dexterity or the capability? I expect more than just one thing being the single winning factor in a conflict. If the mundane solution exists, when all you have is a hammer, use it. But if it's something that requires more finesse and can't be something straightfoward, then try something different.

 

eeeehhhh...I don't really like characters getting new powers just to balance out the math.

If you want, I can brainstorm plenty of other uses for the new power, depending on what it is...

Edited March 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Because of how the series is structured, and it being a video game and whatnot, it's a bit hard to take a "realist" method with it. The games literally need to be structured the way they are to work properly.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Because of how the series is structured, and it being a video game and whatnot, it's a bit hard to take a "realist" method with it.

Then re-structure it...being a video game and whatnot isn't what made this structure the way it was in the first place, it was the people who structured it that way that made it a mess.

 

I can point out several different games that take a realist look in it's structure, so that's no excuse.

The games literally need to be structured the way they are to work properly.

Are we talking about rivalries and stories? Or gameplay?

Edited March 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Then re-structure it...being a video game and whatnot isn't what made this structure the way it was in the first place, it was the people who structured it that way that made it a mess.

 

I can point out several different games that take a realist look in it's structure, so that's no excuse.

It's no excuse, but that's a pretty radical change you're asking for, a change I don't see happening given the current direction of the series.

 

 

Are we talking about rivalries and stories? Or gameplay?

Well considering the topic title, I'm imagining rivalries.

[Sparky]

I consider Sonic to have a large amount of access to chaos-based powers like Shadow, but he chooses to focus on his speed. In contrast, I consider Shadow having the same amount of speed and stuff that Sonic does, but he uses his Chaos- powers more so his skill in speed is surpassed by Sonic.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's no excuse, but that's a pretty radical change you're asking for, a change I don't see happening given the current direction of the series.

It's no more radical than asking for competitive balance, dude. I hate to throw this card out, but even Mario is capable of it in places such as the RPGs, particularly in his use of his partners and abilities to pierce through defenses or protect himself while trying to deliver the damage back.

 

And you could say the same for the Avatar example I made; for all the extra advantages the elements have over each other, no one element is more powerful than the other. 

 

I don't see how applying that to platforming is consider radical.

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Storytelling and competitive balance are kind of on opposite ends of the field.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Storytelling and competitive balance are kind of on opposite ends of the field.

Not really...storytelling is very much something that can explain the competitive balance rather than oppose it so long as you make them work together. It's only when you segregate them is when they oppose each other.

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Depends on the story you want to tell. Sometimes they're not at all the same thing.

 

e: also not sure what "competitive balance" has to do with a primarily one-player series

Edited March 15, 2013 by Diogenes

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Depends on the story you want to tell. Sometimes they're not at all the same thing.

How about a story where the hero, as powerful as he is, can't do everything on his own? Or even with that taken care of, how about the protagonist actually struggles in his goal or rivalries?

 

e: also not sure what "competitive balance" has to do with a primarily one-player series

It's a metaphor for not allowing one thing to dominate over the other; everything has a weakness or else it is powerful to the point of being broken. So to overcome that weakness, the character has to be considerate in how they use their abilities.

 

Think the Classics vs the Modern titles. Classics had a lot of area to explore and reach the goal while the modern titles are dominated by one ability.

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

It's no more radical than asking for competitive balance, dude. I hate to throw this card out, but even Mario is capable of it in places such as the RPGs, particularly in his use of his partners and abilities to pierce through defenses or protect himself while trying to deliver the damage back.

 

And you could say the same for the Avatar example I made; for all the extra advantages the elements have over each other, no one element is more powerful than the other. 

 

I don't see how applying that to platforming is consider radical.

 

But this is a platforming series, competitive balance isn't exactly a major issue.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But this is a platforming series, competitive balance isn't exactly a major issue.

As far as rivalries are concerned, yes it is.

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

As far as rivalries are concerned, yes it is.

 

Weren't you the one who said that a rivalry can have one of them be more powerful as long as they aren't unbeatable?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Weren't you the one who said that a rivalry can have one of them be more powerful as long as they aren't unbeatable?

Yeah, I was. Competitive Balance (whether metaphorical or literal) is what can ensure that they're aren't unbeatable.

 

A glass cannon has a lot of power, and it can possibly one-shot you. But it you manage to hit it, you could definitely beat it, can you not?

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Yeah, I was. Competitive Balance (whether metaphorical or literal) is what can ensure that they're aren't unbeatable.

 

A glass cannon has a lot of power, and it can possibly one-shot you. But it you manage to hit it, you could definitely beat it, can you not?

 

But Sonic has beaten all of his rivals despite that sooooo.....

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But Sonic has beaten all of his rivals despite that sooooo.....

Soooooo....Sonic's strengths and weaknesses need to be rebalanced and/or touched upon to explain his wins and allow some losses. Edited March 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Soooooo....Sonic's strengths and weaknesses need to be rebalanced and/or touched upon to explain his wins and allow some losses.

 

It's a video game, that's the reason...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's a video game, that's the reason...

Okay? So what? That doesn't mean make Sonic this unbeatable character because its a video game or because he's the hero.

You're the hero in Megaman, Mario, Mass Effect, Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper, Halo, Legend of Zelda, Devil May Cry, and dozens of other games and you win fights playing as the title character, but that doesn't stop the game from throwing setbacks and having you fail while progressing or as a requirement to progress.

In fact, you've played Metal Gear Rising. I'm sure you remember the game forcing you to fail your first fight against Sam in the first level before taking him on later in the game. Or how about when you're approaching World Martial and you can't even fight properly until your Jack the Ripper state comes out so you can fight correctly? Or how about the final boss battle? See, we're talking about Raiden, super cyborg ninja who can cut up ten-story tall robots with a sword, going through trouble and having weaknesses along with his strengths. Especially when for all that strength, he is not the most powerful cyborg out there.

 

How many more game examples must I throw at you for you to get the hint? Because I can go at this all day.

• Paper Mario: you lose to Bowser in the first fight of the game.
• Thousand Year Door: You beat Grodus but then he threatens to kill Peach before he still gets away thanks to Bowser
• Devil May Cry 3: You beat Vergil in the first fight between brothers, but he still cuts you up and leaves you for dead after the fight and gets away after the Devil Trigger is unlocked
• DMC4: Same thing happens in the intro of the game, but instead it's Dante rather than Vergil...then the second fight happens between them, and although you (the player) wins, the aftermath show that Dante manages to stand over Nero
• Megaman Zero 4: Final battle - Zero finally defeats Dr Weil, but he pretty much dies in the process.

 

Anymore I have to throw at you?

Edited March 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Okay? So what? That doesn't mean make Sonic this unbeatable character because its a video game or because he's the hero.

You're the hero in Megaman, Mario, Mass Effect, Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper, Halo, Legend of Zelda, Devil May Cry, and dozens of other games and you win fights playing as the title character, but that doesn't stop the game from throwing setbacks and having you fail while progressing or as a requirement to progress.

In fact, you've play Metal Gear Rising. I'm sure you remember the game forcing you to fail your first fight against Sam in the first level before taking him on later in the game. Or how about when you're approaching World Martial and you can't even fight properly until your Jack the Ripper state comes out so you can fight correctly? Or how about the final boss battle? See, we're talking about Raiden, super cyborg ninja who can cut up ten-story tall robots with a sword, going through trouble and having weaknesses along with his strengths. Especially when for all that strength, he is not the most powerful cyborg.

 

How many more game examples must I throw at you for you to get the hint? Because I can go at this all day.

• Paper Mario: you lose to Bowser in the first fight of the game.
• Thousand Year Door: You beat Grodus but then he threatens to kill Peach before he still gets away thanks to Bowser
• Devil May Cry 3: You beat Vergil in the first fight between brothers, but he still cuts you up and leaves you for dead after the fight and gets away after the Devil Trigger is unlocked
• DMC4: Same thing happens in the intro of the game, but instead it's Dante rather than Vergil...then the second fight happens between them, and although you (the player) wins, the aftermath show that Dante manages to stand over Nero
• Megaman Zero 4: Final battle - Zero finally defeats Dr Weil, but he pretty much dies in the process.

 

Anymore I have to throw at you?

 

Except that's not what you were suggesting, you were suggesting giving Sonic more powers to "even" the playing field, if Sonic needs to struggle against his rivals, he doesn't need more powers to do so.