Shadow's Personality

[RidersDX]

Then why did you quote the section refering to SA2?

I think I was referring to the end of the post. I probably should've been more specific.

But there's a difference between being deep and dark. Team Dark doesn't get anywhere beyond being mild at best as opposed to being actually dark. And their plot doesn't get any deeper beyond highlighting the points such as the Shadow clones, which were irrelevant regarding Heroes' plot, but became relevant in part of ShTH's plot.

I think if it was relevant enough to become part of ShTH's plot, then it is dark enough to be considered dark because it fits in the darkest of all Sonic games.

You didn't read my words correctly, because no where in that which you quoted said anything about you saying that Heroes was a deep, serious, and dark game. I made in obviously clear what I was responding to, when you said: "And I kept comparing it to Colors because you are trying to say Heroes is as light-hearted as Colors, and that just isn't true."

Yeah, but you were giving off the idea that I didn't believe Heroes was anywhere lighthearted, and that kind of lighted my fuse.

"...you must be really blind not to see that Heroes is a lighthearted game."

Those words were what I was referring to, it clearly makes you look like you think I see Heroes as this SRS BUSINESS game.

Oh, I'm reading your posts carefully. But I'm not even sure you're reading your own posts carefully in the parts I'm responding, because you've brought up other parts that you never even said at the time I quoted you and then added extra parts that you never mentioned in order to argue said points against me. That's not how it works.

If you want to use my points against me, you're going to have to pay attention to every detail in what you said as well. That means you need to look back on the very words you used and see what I was responding to before you claim that I wasn't paying attention, and also look at my words and see what I am talking about before you start jumping the gun.

An example being the above quote; no where did I claim that you said Heroes was deep and serious game. Really, find those exact words and I'll give you a cookie.

If I would've answered to you last night, I would've been in a very pissy mood and I would've came off as some immature freak cause you were coming off as a smart ass. But now that it's morning, I'm a little more calm. Anyway, I already said what I was referring to above.

Did you even read the words "cheesy, paper-thin, and easy-going" in where you quoted? Team Dark is not excluded from that either.

I think Team Dark is, but I'm not convincing you anytime soon really.

It can, if you write in the interactions in relation to the tone.

The fact that they were in an atmosphere like Heroes only serves to strengthen how well-rounded they are in terms of where they can fit.

I HIGHLY disagree with that. Team Dark's story would've fitted in ShTH, not Sonic Colors. Like I said before, that means it's dark enough to fit perfectly into probably the darkest game of the Sonic series. And I just can't see how something like that can fit into a game as lighthearted as Colors. I really don't think Heroes was trying to be 100% lighthearted considering Team Dark's story, I just think they were trying for a lack of story. A very dumb decision though considering they screwed up Shadow's return.

[Glenn]

A little FYI, we didn't start off the debate with me being rude or confrontational and such. If you came around at the beginning, everything was initially calm or fairly leveled, and only as we went further into the debate did it start building up and getting intense. And that's was the time you came in.

Of course, my initial post did say that what Riders was looking at came off as fanboyish and ignorant, so that doesn't entirely help my case. But at any rate, I would recommend you look at things from the start before you jump in regarding someone's behavior. It doesn't always start with someone being an asshole from the start. I'm what you would call and "Asshole IF provoked", and I haven't been provoked yet.

I did read the whole topic before posting. Regardless of initial positions, the descent into waspish behaviour is never justified in a clear, level-headed debate. Of course, they're my personal standards. Perhaps I am somewhat hypocritical in condemning your lecturing arrogance while simultaneously being... well, a bit preachy, let's be honest. If that appears the case, I do apologise. I have a sense of pride in the Sonic fanbase, having been lucky enough to see all of the good it brings and little of the bad. Such a viewpoint could be misconstrued as naïve, however, and I have certainly heard the horror stories. Nevertheless, I suppose I do hold my own rosy image of the Sonic fan community a little too high.

However, given then nature of people on the internet, some people will choose to be an asshole first and a decent person never and may yank you by your emotions if you seem to be oversensitive. Luckily, I'm not that type of person.

Oh, very true, which is why I was perhaps even more disappointed to see a descent into argumental behaviour.

Oh no. You don't have to do that if you don't want to now that I know why you do it. Just given the timing, it just seemed a bit hostile. Any other time it would've been seen in a different light.

And it's not like I didn't know you weren't trying to be offensive. I just found it a bit weird to do as opposed to using the regular font in calling someone by their name, because it isn't like I couldn't pick out the names and such. Using things like the bold is a bit ambiguous, so it's not always going to have the same reaction from the person. But it did give a sense emphasis, so I was wondering whether that was invoking a hostile response or something entirely different.

The posts I have written in this topic to you, Chaos, are as hostile as I get. I never intend offence, never attack and never mean anything personally. Every point I've made has been made in general terms, and not once have I thought you any less of a valid member of the community for anything you've said. If something really offends me, I stay silent and just let fly with the negative reputation. We're different people with different values and that's absolutely fine... heck, that's something to be celebrated, in my book! After all, if we were all identical, wouldn't life get rather dull?

I apologise for the sidetrack, and I also apologise for giving you a hard time over your attitude. This seems like as good a time as any to take my own advice, and to live and let live, so thank you kindly for your honest replies.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think if it was relevant enough to become part of ShTH's plot, then it is dark enough to be considered dark because it fits in the darkest of all Sonic games.

No, it doesn't work that way. Just because something gets put into something dark does not make it dark, otherwise characters like Cream the Rabbit - who was also in ShTH, for a small amount of time - would be considered dark.

It's gotta have the atmosphere, which it didn't have when it was presented as a cliffhanger in Heroes.

Yeah, but you were giving off the idea that I didn't believe Heroes was anywhere lighthearted, and that kind of lighted my fuse.

"...you must be really blind not to see that Heroes is a lighthearted game."

Those words were what I was referring to, it clearly makes you look like you think I see Heroes as this SRS BUSINESS game.

Well you did say that it wasn't true that Heroes was a lighthearted game, however, I never said any further about Heroes being a serious game on that part.

I HIGHLY disagree with that. Team Dark's story would've fitted in ShTH, not Sonic Colors.

And yet they also fitted in Heroes. To further add to this, if you think Team Dark could've brought in the dark atmosphere that you saw in Heroes, how in the world would Colors change that when it was the characters doing so? Explain to me how that would work.

Like I said before, that means it's dark enough to fit perfectly into probably the darkest game of the Sonic series. And I just can't see how something like that can fit into a game as lighthearted as Colors.

These things shouldn't be restricted in where they fit just because they're dark or lighthearted in tone. Just because a game is lighthearted does not mean a darker character wouldn't fit, provided that the way they are written and characterized can still flow with the game's overall atmosphere. Hence why it is possible for Shadow to fit into a game like Colors.

I really don't think Heroes was trying to be 100% lighthearted considering Team Dark's story, I just think they were trying for a lack of story. A very dumb decision though considering they screwed up Shadow's return.

No, they were going for a lighthearted plot. But they were also going for a minimal one, yet they made it paper-thin to the point that it didn't sit right with many people.

I apologise for the sidetrack, and I also apologise for giving you a hard time over your attitude. This seems like as good a time as any to take my own advice, and to live and let live, so thank you kindly for your honest replies.

Hey, no problem.

Edited February 5, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[HeroMystic]

Oooh, a Shadow thread. I love me some Shadow threads. Let me get in on this.

I'm not entirely sure what the direction of this topic is going, but I believe the original point of this (current) discussion was Shadow being plausible in a lighthearted/comedic game like Sonic Colors. This is most certainly the case. Whether it is a good idea though remains to be seen and is very debatable, unless you count Sonic Free Riders. Since I mentioned Sonic Free Riders I will say Shadow was portrayed in that game rather oddly. I'm assuming he was just there for the competition (while Rouge was there for the money), but his dickery while humorous was over-the-top. He really acted like he didn't give a care in the world about anyone except himself (and Rouge), which pretty much isn't true at all.

The Sonic Rivals series, games that I have yet to see anyone mention actually shows how Shadow acts in a light-hearted game with no dark tone whatsoever. Shadow belittles Knuckles constantly, shows to be highly competitive, and he even got tripped by Rouge and whined about it. Granted, the Sonic Rivals series was a little dry on the dialogue (and visuals) department, but it pretty much ends that debate.

This doesn't mean I would like Shadow to be in a Sonic Colors-esque game. In fact, I'm very against it. Shadow has a "any means necessary, do or die" type of outlook on life and games such as Sonic Colors really would not do him any justice. I'm not saying he should be trigger-happy with guns and giant assault vehicles, but if he wants to do something like kick a robot down and peel information out of it then Sonic Colors obviously isn't the place to do so. Shadow is like Batman from the Justice League series. Sure, he can fit into the series rather easily but he'd never really shine until his level of expertise is needed the most.

And as for this... silly discussion between Colors and Heroes, let it be known that Team Dark's story is darker than Colors. However, the real problem lies within the dialogue. Sonic Heroes really really lacked any emotional feeling from pretty much all characters except Rouge. Team Sonic had to be the most bland of all four groups, while Team Rose were generic as all hell. Chaotix was actually okay, and Team Dark had it's moments, but the most awkward scene had to be Team Dark vs Team Sonic where Shadow reunited with the heroes for the first time ever since his 'death', and all Sonic had to say was "lol 'sup?" At least in Sonic Colors, Sonic and Tails responded the scenarios in a way I found believable, no matter how kiddy the plot was.

[RidersDX]

No, it doesn't work that way. Just because something gets put into something dark does not make it dark, otherwise characters like Cream the Rabbit - who was also in ShTH, for a small amount of time - would be considered dark.

It's gotta have the atmosphere, which it didn't have when it was presented as a cliffhanger in Heroes.

Well, that's your opinion, but my opinion is it was dark enough to be considered dark really. I guess I have different expectations for what's dark.

Well you did say that it wasn't true that Heroes was a lighthearted game, however, I never said any further about Heroes being a serious game on that part.

I said that for only Team Dark's story, and final story too I guess. I never said the entire game was not lighthearted, I know that's a complete lie.

And yet they also fitted in Heroes. To further add to this, if you think Team Dark could've brought in the dark atmosphere that you saw in Heroes, how in the world would Colors change that when it was the characters doing so? Explain to me how that would work.

Well to put it simply, Colors is a simple story, there's not supposed to be anything complex about Colors' story. Team Dark's story is basically a cliffhanger for a story that's not entirely simple at all. It's a taste of something very serious and deep. And really, Colors isn't any of those two things. If Team Dark's story were to fit in Colors, you'd probably have to replace Shadow with someone else actually. I'm very sure if Team Dark had a cutscene after every stage and boss that actually really contributed to the story, it wouldn't be very lighthearted. But we can't tell, because there aren't enough actual cutscenes to see that. But judging from the cutscenes we got, I can tell the tone would've been dark enough to be considered dark by everyone. I don't think you see Team Dark's story as a dark story simply because there weren't enough cutscenes to really prove the tone is supposed to be dark, but I guess I just have lower standards.

These things shouldn't be restricted in where they fit just because they're dark or lighthearted in tone. Just because a game is lighthearted does not mean a darker character wouldn't fit, provided that the way they are written and characterized can still flow with the game's overall atmosphere. Hence why it is possible for Shadow to fit into a game like Colors.

I know, but like I said before, I just don't have the desire to see Shadow fit in a lighthearted game. Doesn't mean I don't think he'd fit in Colors, I was proven wrong about that before, I just don't think it'll be beneficial to his character at all, unless it'll gain him fans who hated him in the first place for having such a deep and serious story. But I don't see the point of getting those people on his side.

No, they were going for a lighthearted plot. But they were also going for a minimal one, yet they made it paper-thin to the point that it didn't sit right with many people.

Yeah, but they didn't really bother to make Team Dark's plot as lighthearted as the other three, and in my eyes, their story actually seems dark. Not very dark, but still dark.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, that's your opinion, but my opinion is it was dark enough to be considered dark really. I guess I have different expectations for what's dark.

That's not really an opinion. That's one of the key things that go along with story-writing, believe it or not. You may have different expectations, but this isn't something you can merely decide simply because of a mere say so.

Well to put it simply, Colors is a simple story, there's not supposed to be anything complex about Colors' story. Team Dark's story is basically a cliffhanger for a story that's not entirely simple at all. It's a taste of something very serious and deep. And really, Colors isn't any of those two things. If Team Dark's story were to fit in Colors, you'd probably have to replace Shadow with someone else actually. I'm very sure if Team Dark had a cutscene after every stage and boss that actually really contributed to the story, it wouldn't be very lighthearted. But we can't tell, because there aren't enough actual cutscenes to see that. But judging from the cutscenes we got, I can tell the tone would've been dark enough to be considered dark by everyone.

Except people don't tell how dark something is based on whether it contributes to the story, how many cutscenes there are, or even how deep or serious it is. A lighthearted plot can do that, and yes that includes being deep and serious.

The key things that tells you whether something is dark or light are tone, attitude, and presentation and situation. In Team Dark, is their tone bleak, brutal, or cruel and in addition to that is there a hopeless, horrific, or sadistic attitude, and are they presented in taking the situation with the utmost serious or just doing it to get the job done?

Those are the very things among various others that make something dark, mild, or light. You can find all of that presented in ShTH, but you can only find a few of those within Team Dark's story in Heroes.

I don't think you see Team Dark's story as a dark story simply because there weren't enough cutscenes to really prove the tone is supposed to be dark, but I guess I just have lower standards.

It's not the cutscenes, dude. It could have ten or ten million cutscenes, but that doesn't make it dark at all.

I know, but like I said before, I just don't have the desire to see Shadow fit in a lighthearted game. Doesn't mean I don't think he'd fit in Colors, I was proven wrong about that before, I just don't think it'll be beneficial to his character at all, unless it'll gain him fans who hated him in the first place for having such a deep and serious story. But I don't see the point of getting those people on his side.

That's exactly one of the reasons how it would be beneficial to his character, in addition to making him a more well-rounded and layed character.

Getting people who hate him to like him would serve to allow much less prejudice of the character and a more open-minded interest in where he can be. Now surely that's a good enough reason to have more people liking him, and to keep him from being seeing as an plague to the series among those people.

Yeah, but they didn't really bother to make Team Dark's plot as lighthearted as the other three, and in my eyes, their story actually seems dark. Not very dark, but still dark.

That's what is taken as mild at best. It's not dark enough to be balance on the scale of darkness, but it doesn't slide far enough to be lighthearted either.

Edited February 6, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[hebitaka]

I appriate how well thought out you guys are about Shadow, I always felt he was one of the best depictions of a character Sonic Team has ever made since Knuckles. I like how Shadow is a character who puts his experiences and struggles in his will to keep being the person he is, and he's kinda like Captain America and Wolverine, he's suffered through out time and holds 50 years of regret and pain into a era where his orgins are relics to others, but he was preserved and made to live again in a world that has changed, with the knowledge of his past he holds a cynical and dark outlook towards life but keeps to his guns and finds a place, he lives to protect and save people not based on moral idealism like Sonic and the others but his own convictions based on his phiolshophy.

He got cool songs to.

[batson]

Regarding the level of "darkness" to Team Darks story in SH, i always felt that it did indeed came of as rather dark, if mostly because it was in a game where all the other side-stories were almost 100% fun and games.

I remember the first time i cleared Team Darks story (and just so you know, i wasn't exactly a little kid back then, being 17). I had cleared Team Sonics story just the day before and was kinda expecting Team Darks part of the game to more or less have the same happy mood as the previous team, so i was quite surprised about how serious it was (you know, despite the terribly translated, narm-inducing dialogue...). I mean, the whole deal with Shadow, the other characters and not the least we players not knowing whether the "Shadow" in this game was indeed the same person as the one in SA2 or rather just a clone of the deceased original Shadow was kinda disturbing actually. Throughout the Team Dark storyline i was dying to get to know the truth. And the downer ending with Rouge confirming that she believed this Shadow to be a clone but with no final answer to the mystery being given, followed by the credits rolling to the sound of the dark and awesome song that is "This Machine", was pretty powerful stuff. I remember thinking to myself during that credits roll that "man, this wasn't like the first Teams pleasant adventure at all. This felt like an actual follow up to SA2...".

I would say that at the very least, Team Darks story was much to dark to have fit in with the Sonic Colors universe.

[Sega DogTagz]

I mean, the whole deal with Shadow, the other characters and not the least we players not knowing whether the "Shadow" in this game was indeed the same person as the one in SA2 or rather just a clone of the deceased original Shadow was kinda disturbing actually. Throughout the Team Dark storyline i was dying to get to know the truth. And the downer ending with Rouge confirming that she believed this Shadow to be a clone but with no final answer to the mystery being given, followed by the credits rolling to the sound of the dark and awesome song that is "This Machine", was pretty powerful stuff.

There may have been no final answer concerning whether or not we were dealing with a 100% genuine legit Shadow, but at very least Omega gave the issue a bit of closure. By stating that "the original must exist somewhere" Omega used a backwards way of telling the player not to worry to much about it, because one way or another Shadow was still around.

With that in mind, I left Team Dark's story feeling pretty good.

[Kuzu]

Team Dark's story was the only thing good about Heroes` story, other than Metal's return.

[batson]

Team Dark's story was the only thing good about Heroes` story, other than Metal's return.

Yeah, as simple and straightforward as the narrative in the game was, i feel that Team Dark's story and the final story with Metal Sonic was still perfectly decent and interesting enough to make you want to see how it all would be resolved. Well actually, i feel the same with Team Chaotix's. (So i guess Team Sonic's and Team Rose's stories were the only terribly uninteresting ones). Of course, every single story in the game was poisoned by the same inexplicably bad dialogue, but terrible dialogue isn't the same as terrible narrative.

[CanofEpicSauce]

To tell you the honest truth, I've never been a Shadow fan. He annoyed the fuck out of me in every game he was in besides from Sonic Adventure 2. But if you want to save his personality I suggest they make him a bit like Zero, where as he's mysterious but interesting. He's supportive yet serious, however he's not angsty. The only thing you'd have to do after that is make him smile (just a tiny, tiny bit when he gets sarcastic sometimes) and then Shadow would be good to go.

Edited March 14, 2011 by CanofEpicSauce

[hebitaka]

To tell you the honest truth, I've never been a Shadow fan. He annoyed the fuck out of me in every game he was in besides from Sonic Adventure 2. But if you want to save his personality I suggest they make him a bit like Zero, where as he's mysterious but interesting. He's supportive yet serious, however he's not angsty. The only thing you'd have to do after that is make him smile (just a tiny, tiny bit when he gets sarcastic sometimes) and then Shadow would be good to go.

He's been like that since after his own game. Also he fits your discription to a tee in Sonic X.

Edited March 14, 2011 by hebitaka

[CanofEpicSauce]

He's been like that since after his own game. Also he fits your discription to a tee in Sonic X.

Oh really? I wouldn't consider him mysterious, or interesting. He is supportive but he's still angsty, and miserable. And I find that having him as a spy for GUN is chessey and very "fan-fictiony". I would like it more if he was a loner yet he would pop up from time to time to help Sonic.

[Kuzu]

Oh really? I wouldn't consider him mysterious, or interesting. He is supportive but he's still angsty, and miserable. And I find that having him as a spy for GUN is chessey and very "fan-fictiony". I would like it more if he was a loner yet he would pop up from time to time to help Sonic.

....All of his angsting stopped after his game, I don't know ONE time he angst since then. And he kinda already is the latter, he just works for GUN that doesn't mean he doesn't do his own thing.

And he's only been in GUN for one game, which technically doesn't count anymore.

[HeroMystic]

Oh really? I wouldn't consider him mysterious, or interesting. He is supportive but he's still angsty, and miserable.

[Scar]

He sure as hell wasn't angsty or miserable in Sonic Free Riders.

No he wasn't.

Shadow should be more serious, but not Angsty version of Sonic.

He should be more than 1-dimensional, so naturally, he should also make jokes, but they should be more sarcastic witha hint of cynicism and satire. Honestly, having a character which is a cardboard cut-out who never makes a single joke, doesn't laugh is a terrible character, and Shadow needs to rise above this.

I'm tired of the "I'm Shadow and I'm attempting to be badass" bullshit he's been plagued with since SA2.

Also, nef him a little. His Inhibitor rings, once taken off, should provide an extra burst of power, but at a cost. i.e He becomes drained of energy and drastically slower (I assume his rocket skates work by using some of his chaos energy, so once that's drained he can only run, not skate)

[Kuzu]

No he wasn't.

Shadow should be more serious, but not Angsty version of Sonic.

He should be more than 1-dimensional, so naturally, he should also make jokes, but they should be more sarcastic witha hint of cynicism and satire. Honestly, having a character which is a cardboard cut-out who never makes a single joke, doesn't laugh is a terrible character, and Shadow needs to rise above this.

I'm tired of the "I'm Shadow and I'm attempting to be badass" bullshit he's been plagued with since SA2.

Also, nef him a little. His Inhibitor rings, once taken off, should provide an extra burst of power, but at a cost. i.e He becomes drained of energy and drastically slower (I assume his rocket skates work by using some of his chaos energy, so once that's drained he can only run, not skate)

Batman almost never laughs, and he's treated as god.

Shadow not laughing isn't a bad thing, its how its portrayed that's the problem. Characters(Namely Sonic) should start making fun of his attitude on things, make fun of his stoic attitude, and start making snide remarks about it. And when he does laugh, it should be treated as the most terrifying thing ever(Played for Laughs of course). I don't mind Shadow being "SRS BUISNESS" but it needs to be presented better(Kinda like Free Riders), and him making snide remarks, can do that.

[Glenn]

Also, nef him a little. His Inhibitor rings, once taken off, should provide an extra burst of power, but at a cost. i.e He becomes drained of energy and drastically slower (I assume his rocket skates work by using some of his chaos energy, so once that's drained he can only run, not skate)

I'd always assumed that removal of inhibitor rings did drain Shadow of power (shameless plug, but see my fan fiction, specifically 1x05 - "An Agent of Chaos" where that very concept is explored... in fact, six episodes later and he's still powerless).

Indeed, the only time we've ever seen it happen in canon (at the conclusion of his storyline in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), against Mephiles the Dark) was quickly followed by a cutaway, so we never saw the aftermath or effect it had on Shadow. That said, if you assume a direct progression into the End of the World, then Shadow has enough power to transform into Super Shadow rather quickly afterwards.

Working them into gameplay, however, would be rather neat. It'd present some cool tactics, a penalty for escaping a sticky situation with a burst of wild power. In fact, let that be Shadow's boost gauge or something, draining him physically as events progress.

[Scar]

I'd always assumed that removal of inhibitor rings did drain Shadow of power (shameless plug, but see my fan fiction, specifically 1x05 - "An Agent of Chaos" where that very concept is explored... in fact, six episodes later and he's still powerless).

Indeed, the only time we've ever seen it happen in canon (at the conclusion of his storyline in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), against Mephiles the Dark) was quickly followed by a cutaway, so we never saw the aftermath or effect it had on Shadow. That said, if you assume a direct progression into the End of the World, then Shadow has enough power to transform into Super Shadow rather quickly afterwards.

In 06, he didn't seem to be affected much at all. He just picked the rings up and clicked them back on.

Working them into gameplay, however, would be rather neat. It'd present some cool tactics, a penalty for escaping a sticky situation with a burst of wild power. In fact, let that be Shadow's boost gauge or something, draining him physically as events progress.

This is what I had in mind. A guage slowly builds up and then if you're un trouble, you can let out a quick burst of energy. Once that's over the guage goes into negative and Shadow becomes slower and less agile for a short period of time, then once the guage reaches the ground level, Shadow returns to normal and the guage starts to charge up again. Obviously, the length of time the "tired out mode" lasts depends on how long you use the Inhibitor rings.

I just thought it would be a neat idea.

[Sega DogTagz]

In 06, he didn't seem to be affected much at all. He just picked the rings up and clicked them back on.

It should be noted that the games constantly bring Shadow's restorative/recuperative power's into question. In SA2, he plummeted after expending energy as Super Shadow. In Battle he spends the first half of the game sucking wind and bemoaning about not being up to full power yet.

Ignoring the inhibitor rings for a moment, I think that Shadow's lack of stamina has been addressed for story purposes, and it would be interesting to see it implemented into the gameplay side of things. It would add a bit of stradagy in the form of micro-managing his powers while still staying around his normal gameplay style.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sega DogTagz

[Kuzu]

I always wanted to see how the Inhibitor Rings would be worked into gameplay, I'm curious.