Shadow's Personality

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So you want a linear story? I feel the way they made those addition what if scenes was an awesome feature. I love to see what Shadow could've done if hie chose different paths. What's wrong with seeing his characterizations in paths that are not even real? Just because it's not the truth doesn't mean it wasn't done well. I enjoyed the freedom on the game storywise, it was a unique feature and seemed perfect for Shadow.

And I blame that on Heroes, not ShTH. Infact, ShTH does explain that Eggman found Shadow and put him in that capsule, if only during the final boss.

I want a well developed story. I don't care how they do it as long as it is well made and good, which isn't the case with ShTH in the way they portrayed Shadow and the incoherence with the plot you traverse before taking on the final story.

And either way they wanted to go about Shadow's revival, they certainly didn't do a decent job at it.

Why? Why is it such a problem to see other possible outcomes for Shadow? I feel it makes the story of this game alot more interesting then other games, because in a way, you get to create your own story with Shadow, make him do what you want him to do. And I absolutely loved that. There's a true ending which is done better then any of the other endings. I just really don't see what's the problem with the additional endings.

Okay, hearing this is really tempting me to call you a fanboy when you say this. And that's saying a lot from one Shadow fan to another. I really can't say anymore other than that after already explaining the problems with it.

Someone who is a lot more critical of the plot would have to go further than what I presented provided they can put their preference of the character off to the side.

Shadow already has tons of dimensions to him, and we've seen them all throughout all the games. The Shadow in SA2 is different from the Shadow in 06. I just personally don't see the need to see Shadow become funny.

The only extra dimensions he has are his roles and his occupations.

Personality-wise he's currently no more developed than the rest of the cast, which is a big hit he took after SA2 where he was a lot more well handled. And not seeing other sides of the character, including any humorous sides to him, is another hinderance. And going against it is pretty much denying him that extra dimension which he can benefit from.

Colors has no story, it pretends to have a story with cutscenes.

Excuse me? Colors does so have a story, and it's ridiculous to say it doesn't whether or not you liked it. It was simplistic, but the story is definitely there.

Colors' story IS too one dimensional. And scenes where the story could've really shined, are absolutely ruined to try to get another laugh from the player. It just angers me that they had to downgrade the intensity that much.

I'd say two dimensional. It was leagues better than what Heroes and ShTH ever was, but I'll agree that they could've done more.

Good for them if they could make it work, but I still don't think Shadow's best qualities could shine in a story like Colors.

He could still benefit from it nonetheless.

Also one thing to point out, Shadow's involvement in Heroes was not light-hearted at all. Team Dark's story is the only one that's actually very serious in the little scenes that you see with them. With the exception of their encounter with Team Sonic, which brought a little of the SA2 Shadow back. But Team Dark's story isn't light-hearted at all, it's very dark with the whole mystery of Shadow, and really was just a taste of what ShTH would come to be. The other three stories were pretty light-hearted though, so I guess Heroes is still mainly a light-hearted game.

No, Team Dark's story is no different from all the other stories with the exception of Team Sonic being more cheesy from Sonic spouting "TEAMWURK!" the way he did throughout the plot. There's not any seriousness to them throughout the game.

The only serious portion of Heroes was the final story (which still isn't saying a lot), everything else was neutral at best.

[RidersDX]

I want a well developed story. I don't care how they do it as long as it is well made and good, which isn't the case with ShTH in the way they portrayed Shadow and the incoherence with the plot you traverse before taking on the final story.

And either way they wanted to go about Shadow's revival, they certainly didn't do a decent job at it.

I thought it could've been done better too, but I still liked it.

Okay, hearing this is really tempting me to call you a fanboy when you say this. And that's saying a lot from one Shadow fan to another. I really can't say anymore other than that after already explaining the problems with it.

Someone who is a lot more critical of the plot would have to go further than what I presented provided they can put their preference of the character off to the side.

Excuse me? All you sounded like was basically trashing the multiple pathaways for Shadow. If that wasn't the case, maybe you should've said so.

The only extra dimensions he has are his roles and his occupations.

Personality-wise he's currently no more developed than the rest of the cast, which is a big hit he took after SA2 where he was a lot more well handled. And not seeing other sides of the character, including any humorous sides to him, is another hinderance. And going against it is pretty much denying him that extra dimension which he can benefit from.

Um, that is false and you know it. For god's sake, Shadow got his OWN GAME for development into putting the past behind him. You cannot tell me Shadow is as developed as someone like Charmy is.

Excuse me? Colors does so have a story, and it's ridiculous to say it doesn't whether or not you liked it. It was simplistic, but the story is definitely there.

Yeah, barely.

I'd say two dimensional. It was leagues better than what Heroes and ShTH ever was, but I'll agree that they could've done more.

No, I disagree, it's one dimensional. And the scenes where the game tries to be serious just falls flat, as another joke is inserted to light the mood. The only serious scene done right was the one where they saw the wisps converted, but even that scene wasn't as intense as it could've been. At least Heroes was serious when it needed to be. ShTH I admit may seem a little too one dimensional though.

He could still benefit from it nonetheless.

If you say so.

No, Team Dark's story is no different from all the other stories with the exception of Team Sonic being more cheesy from Sonic spouting "TEAMWURK!" the way he did throughout the plot. There's not any seriousness to them throughout the game.

The only serious portion of Heroes was the final story (which still isn't saying a lot), everything else was neutral at best.

Excuse me? Finding a robotic copy of Shadow at the end of Egg Albatross isn't serious? (Infact, that scene for all the teams was pretty serious, but Team Dark really kicked it up a notch) Seeing all those Shadow clones at the end isn't serious? Sorry, but Team Dark is no doubt the story where are the darkness is at, no matter how colorful the levels are, and no matter how many times Sonic shouts obnoxious team work lines.

Edited February 3, 2011 by RidersDX

[Kuzu]

Geez, you come home from school, and the whole internest erupts, eh that's life.

Excuse me? Finding a robotic copy of Shadow at the end of Egg Albatross isn't serious? (Infact, that scene for all the teams was pretty serious, but Team Dark really kicked it up a notch) Seeing all those Shadow clones at the end isn't serious? Sorry, but Team Dark is no doubt the story where are the darkness is at, no matter how colorful the levels are, and no matter how many times Sonic shouts obnoxious team work lines.

Ok dude, think of the Shadow clone arc for Heroes, the same as some of the cutscenes in Colors, something interesting, but never come through in the end.

The whole Shadow clone thing was never brought up after Team Darks's ending, and because most of the ending in Shadow's game are non-canon, they technically weren't brought up in there too.

And you make it seem like Colors has NO serious scenes at all(The whole wisp draining scene, the final Eggman cutscene, Sonic's escape from the Black Hole).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Excuse me? All you sounded like was basically trashing the multiple pathaways for Shadow. If that wasn't the case, maybe you should've said so.

I didn't need to say so, because I made it clear that I was criticizing the multiple pathways for their incoherence, or it's lack of (or very small) connection with the final plot along with being poorly handled and overly convoluted. Not merely because of the idea of going through different paths.

If I was trashing something, there would be even more of a fit behind it. But I don't make my reputation here by trashing anything, whether I like something or not, unless it was that damn bad.

Um, that is false and you know it. For god's sake, Shadow got his OWN GAME for development into putting the past behind him. You cannot tell me Shadow is as developed as someone like Charmy is.

Did you read the part where I was talking about just his current personality being less developed than the rest of the cast, because I made that more than obvious of where he is lacking the good development.

And while I wouldn't say he's as developed as Charmy, he's no more developed than a character such as Knuckles or Amy in that department.

Yeah, barely.

It was more than Heroes and was more coherent by comparison, and that much is obvious.

No, I disagree, it's one dimensional. And the scenes where the game tries to be serious just falls flat, as another joke is inserted to light the mood. The only serious scene done right was the one where they saw the wisps converted, but even that scene wasn't as intense as it could've been. At least Heroes was serious when it needed to be. ShTH I admit may seem a little too one dimensional though.

Heroes was barely even serious, and even that isn't holding it in a better light.

Not to mention that the Colors wasn't trying to be serious at all, hence the reason the jokes were there in the first place. So to mark it down for that is completely missing the point as to the portrayal it was going for.

A plot's worth isn't judged by how serious or lighthearted it is, and both ShTH and Heroes are examples of it failing on both accounts.

Excuse me? Finding a robotic copy of Shadow at the end of Egg Albatross isn't serious? (Infact, that scene for all the teams was pretty serious, but Team Dark really kicked it up a notch)

No more than it was for them to discover that the Eggman they were going after was a fake. Sentimental maybe, but not serious to the extent that you make it out to be.

Seeing all those Shadow clones at the end isn't serious?

Hell no. That wasn't even going for anything serious at all. More like a surprise or shock, but nothing serious.

Sorry, but Team Dark is no doubt the story where are the darkness is at, no matter how colorful the levels are, and no matter how many times Sonic shouts obnoxious team work lines.

It really isn't. Heck even Team Rose is on the same level of tone as Team Dark, which says a lot considering the characters of the former's team.

You're completely overrating where the darkness is, because it despite the name and the expectation, Team Dark was pretty mild as opposed to being dark and serious.

Edited February 3, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[RidersDX]

Geez, you come home from school, and the whole internest erupts, eh that's life.

Ok dude, think of the Shadow clone arc for Heroes, the same as some of the cutscenes in Colors, something interesting, but never come through in the end.

The whole Shadow clone thing was never brought up after Team Darks's ending, and because most of the ending in Shadow's game are non-canon, they technically weren't brought up in there too.

And you make it seem like Colors has NO serious scenes at all(The whole wisp draining scene, the final Eggman cutscene, Sonic's escape from the Black Hole).

So, it was still more serious then anything in Colors.

I didn't need to say so, because I made it clear that I was criticizing the multiple pathways for their incoherence, or it's lack of (or very small) connection with the final plot.

If I was trashing something, there would be even more of a fit behind it. But I don't make my reputation here by trashing anything, whether I like something or not, unless it was that damn bad.

Well to me, you didn't make it pretty clear.

Did you read the part where I was talking about just his personality being less developed than the rest of the cast, because I made that more than obvious of where he is lacking the good development.

And while I wouldn't say he's as developed as Charmy, he's no more developed than a character such as Knuckles or Amy in that department.

See, I think Shadow's personality is still the most developed in the series. He went from some cocky hedgehog with revenge on his mind to one who's more conservative in his emotions and doesn't like to joke around tons. Shadow's personality has drastically changed these past few years. The same case is with Knuckles and Amy though so I'll give ya that.

Heroes was barely even serious, and even that isn't holding it in a better light.

Not to mention that the Colors wasn't trying to be serious at all, hence the reason the jokes were there in the first place. So to mark it down for that is completely missing the point as to the portrayal it was going for.

A plot's worth isn't judged by how serious or lighthearted it is, and both ShTH and Heroes are examples of it failing on both accounts.

You know, I'm actually a gigantic fan of Spongebob Squarepants, so I know I can be into light-hearted stuff as well. Unfortunately, the only person that is actually funny in this game is Eggman, because he was obviously made to be comic relief. I don't think Sonic and Tails were made that way, so in Colors, their jokes are just obnoxious. I just don't see any good qualities about Colors' story besides some of Eggman's lines. If Colors wanted to be light-hearted, they wouldn't have had the wisps being converted scene, or the mind controlling Tails scene. Maybe the story erks me because I KNOW there were spots where the story could've been more.

No more than it was for them to discover that the Eggman they were going after was a fake. Sentimental maybe, but not serious to the extent that you make it out to be.

Hell no. That wasn't even going for anything serious at all. More like a surprise or shock, but nothing serious.

It really isn't. Heck even Team Rose is on the same level of tone as Team Dark, which says a lot considering the characters of the former's team.

You're completely overrating where the darkness is, because it despite the name and the expectation, Team Dark was pretty mild as opposed to being dark and serious.

I'm starting to wonder if anything Shadow does is serious to you. The fact that Shadow was possibly in robot is serious enough in my opinion, and much more serious then anything Colors does. We're talking about how Shadow could've possibly not been the real Shadow, and how Rouge was discovering the Shadow with her is a fake, and just the depression Shadow would get from discovering he was a robot. The darkness is there, even if it wasn't taken fully advantage of, and it most certainly is darker then anything in Colors.

[Kuzu]

So, it was still more serious then anything in Colors.

Heroes and Colors are about on the same level of seriousness, jokes aside.

Sonic & Tails discover the factory where Eggman is draining the life energy of the Wisp, and using them to power is weapons, if Sonic's attitude(Note, he didn't say a single joke), and Tails` obvious worry isn't serious to you, then I'm convinced you hold a complete biased against Colors` story.

[Enraged Psycho]

I never said, he doesn't show emotion completely. When it comes to Shadow he tends to keep his emotions on a tight leach, but when he does emote its a lot more signifigant, because its so unlike him.

And I never said that you'd claimed such, if you'd care to pay attention I was responding to the trope I was directed to, and sharing my thoughts in regards to that, not you. The trope is defined as showing little to no emotion, even in extreme situations. We've seen Shadow's emotions run haywrie. Now then, where was the point of contention here?

What he did in the ending to his game was supremely Badass, but no one ever brings it up, saying "Bah, Shadow's not Badass anymore" when its far from the truth.

No, but many people feel the need to bring up the fact that he sucks in just about every concievable way.

he's no more developed

I feel the need to call bullshit on this one. Shadow's personality has actually changed, in some ways slightly, and others significantly, since his initial appearance. He stole the scene as a completely evil, uncaring badass. He followed up, shown to be an emotionally distraught and confused, perhaps even depressed anti-hero, before learning to let the skeletons out of his closet and embrace something greater, a sense of true purpose after letting his past go. It is debatable as to the level of quality in his character, but as for development, he most certainly has changed as the series progresses. In fact, I'd be inclined to say he is one of few characters who actually develops at all. Sure, he's generic in that regard, but I'd say that just about every character in Sonic is generic, with very, very few exceptions.

[RidersDX]

Heroes and Colors are about on the same level of seriousness, jokes aside.

Sonic & Tails discover the factory where Eggman is draining the life energy of the Wisp, and using them to power is weapons, if Sonic's attitude(Note, he didn't say a single joke), and Tails` obvious worry isn't serious to you, then I'm convinced you hold a complete biased against Colors` story.

That's only one scene in the entire game now. One scene doesn't make a story serious.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

See, I think Shadow's personality is still the most developed in the series. He went from some cocky hedgehog with revenge on his mind to one who's more conservative in his emotions and doesn't like to joke around tons. Shadow's personality has drastically changed these past few years. The same case is with Knuckles and Amy though so I'll give ya that.

He is one of the most developed of the cast, but the way his development has been handled hasn't been doing well after SA2 and only started to recover in Sonic 06.

As Phos once said, it's "wide but shallow".

If Colors wanted to be light-hearted, they wouldn't have had the wisps being converted scene, or the mind controlling Tails scene. Maybe the story erks me because I KNOW there were spots where the story could've been more.

Those two scenes do not make up the majority of the tone Colors was going for, and the plot is still lighthearted in spite of that. They were going for a little bit of seriousness, but it is very minor.

I'm starting to wonder if anything Shadow does is serious to you.

The stuff he did in SA2 was serious and brilliant by this series standards. Using Eggman as a pawn, helping in conquering the world, but secretly wanting to destroy it and almost succeeded...that's serious, and it was well done. Everything else afterwards, not so much. Beyond SA2 it was either shallow, mild, or laughable.

The fact that Shadow was possibly in robot is serious enough in my opinion, and much more serious then anything Colors does.

Let me repeat this: Colors was NOT trying to be serious.

We're talking about how Shadow could've possibly not been the real Shadow, and how Rouge was discovering the Shadow with her is a fake, and just the depression Shadow would get from discovering he was a robot. The darkness is there, even if it wasn't taken fully advantage of, and it most certainly is darker then anything in Colors.

Again, Colors was NOT trying to be serious.

And sort of darkness that was attempted in Team Dark's plot was mild at best, and even then was no more darker than Team Rose's or Chaotix.

[Kuzu]

That's only one scene in the entire game now. One scene doesn't make a story serious.

Neither do Team Dark's cutscenes in Heroes, like what only TWO cutscenes deal with the fact that he may be a clone. Every thing else are the retarded Team Fights, never hear you bring THAT up.

[RidersDX]

He is one of the most developed of the cast, but the way his development has been handled hasn't been doing well after SA2 and only started to recover in Sonic 06.

As Phos once said, it's "wide but shallow".

Still, he is probably the most developed, whether or not it's good development is up to you. I certainly think there could've been at least a better explanation of how Shadow got back.

Those two scenes do not make up the majority of the tone Colors was going for, and the plot is still lighthearted in spite of that. They were going for a little bit of seriousness, but it is very minor.

Well it's probably a personal problem with me, cause I hate seeing potential wasted just to keep a light-hearted theme.

The stuff he did in SA2 was serious and brilliant by this series standards. Using Eggman as a pawn, helping in conquering the world, but secretly wanting to destroy it and almost succeeded...that's serious, and it was well done. Everything else afterwards, not so much. Beyond SA2 it was either shallow, mild, or laughable.

But it was dark, and you're trying to say it wasn't. Just cause it may be laughable darkness to you, doesn't make it not dark.

Let me repeat this: Colors was NOT trying to be serious.

Again, Colors was NOT trying to be serious.

And sort of darkness that was attempted in Team Dark's plot was mild at best, and even then was no more darker than Team Rose's or Chaotix.

Finding a frog and a chao and a blue hedgehog is definitely not as dark as discovering you're possibly a robot. And Vector and Charmy's relationship is more then enough to make Team Dark's story darker.

And I kept comparing it to Colors because you are trying to say Heroes is as light-hearted as Colors, and that just isn't true.

Edited February 3, 2011 by RidersDX

[Kuzu]

And I never said that you'd claimed such, if you'd care to pay attention I was responding to the trope I was directed to, and sharing my thoughts in regards to that, not you. The trope is defined as showing little to no emotion, even in extreme situations. We've seen Shadow's emotions run haywrie. Now then, where was the point of contention here?

I feel the need to call bullshit on this one. Shadow's personality has actually changed, in some ways slightly, and others significantly, since his initial appearance. He stole the scene as a completely evil, uncaring badass. He followed up, shown to be an emotionally distraught and confused, perhaps even depressed anti-hero, before learning to let the skeletons out of his closet and embrace something greater, a sense of true purpose after letting his past go. It is debatable as to the level of quality in his character, but as for development, he most certainly has changed as the series progresses. In fact, I'd be inclined to say he is one of few characters who actually develops at all. Sure, he's generic in that regard, but I'd say that just about every character in Sonic is generic, with very, very few exceptions.

I didn't know that, so I apologize.

Ok yeah, Shadow has character development, the most significant out of all the characters, but so did Tails which kinda extended itself over into SA2, there was Knuckles` whole deal in SA1, and to a degree Chronicles, so Shadow isn't the only one who's add development.

[Scar]

For fucks sake.

The quality of a story is NOT defined by how serious it is.

All I fucking hear is "Colours' story was crap because it wasn't serious enough". You're fucking kidding me right?

A story is judged on a number of factors, but seriousness is not one of them. Colours plot, may be simpler, but it is better written, and more condensed than any other Sonic plot barring perhaps 3&K. There were no loop holes. There were no inconsistencies. There were no moments where the plot didn't make any sense.

Yes the scenes may or may not have been ruined by the humour, but what the fuck else were you expecting from a game called Sonic Colours.

If you went into the game, after being told the game was made to be very lighthearted, and expect something like SA2 or Shadow, then you're expecting too much.

The reason Shadow's story was so hated, wasn't because of the fact that it was non-linear. It was in part due to Shadows origin as an alien.

The other part was, the branched story line made no fucking difference to the ending. After having beaten all of the stories, the final story tells you what path Shadow takes, which is basically a false promise. If the last story you completed was Pure Dark, then you're expecting Shadow to destroy the world, but suddenly he changes his mind and rescues it. The characterisation was so horrifyingly inconsistent. Each story had Shadow behaving very differently, almost like 10 different characters.

If there is to be a branched plot, Shadow's personality should remain consistent, but the situations he's put into should be different, depending on the path taken.

In his game, Shadow would go from Selfless hero to an ally-less mercenary to a pathological murderer. THAT is why people despise what ShTH did to Shadow's character.

For a character to be beleived, they need to be consistant, and ShTH made Shadow look Schizophrenic.

Also, Shadow having a sense of humour will add to his character. What's wrong with Shadow making a smartass remark. What's wrong with Shadow being sarchastic. What's wrong with Shadow using a bit of dark humour? Ever heard of a "Dead-pan snarker"? He'd make people laugh, but in a different way.

And again, Colours' style of humour probably isn't permanent. It looked like a one-time deal, because the story and game was designed in that way.

EDIT: Heroes' story is so bad that it isn't even in the same league as Colours. What little plot there was in Team Dark Story was negligable. It was fairly serious, but not even close to something like SA2. It could have been better, but the writers just left it there and if fell flat.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Scar

[Enraged Psycho]

Ok yeah, Shadow has character development, the most significant out of all the characters, but so did Tails which kinda extended itself over into SA2, there was Knuckles` whole deal in SA1, and to a degree Chronicles, so Shadow isn't the only one who's add development

This is true, to an extent. However, Shadow has been actively evolving in almost every major release thus far, whereas Tails has been relegated to a meager side-kick with no alterior purpose other than to simply be there to help Sonic, which isn't necessarily a bad thing entirely, but S2 introduced them almost as equals, and it was kind of a letdown for Tails. As for Knuckles, well, his delegation into a bone-headed, almost comic-relief character has been hardfelt by many.

If there is to be a branched plot, Shadow's personality should remain consistent, but the situations he's put into should be different, depending on the path taken.

While there was a lack of cohesion overall, I should point out that Shadow's personality devled into being darker/lighter, (if you will) depending on your progression. Also, additional endings were there for the sake of variety, the only canon or 'true' ending was, the absolute final one, so in a realistic sense, his personality was maintianed in terms of canon portrayal, because only the main path actually happened. Those other 'endings' were just there for the sake of giving the player other things to do, and implement a different way of 'unlocking' the final area. The inconsistencies exist because of how they structured the game, not because of his actual character. Besides, the whole switching of morality isn't necessarily horrific. Isn't that was he is supposed to be? Morally distraught and confused? And it is represented in the game. Characters do not necessarily have to be completely consistent either, as context elements can bring out sides of characters in a startling ammount of ways, without hurting their overall characterisation. It isn't breaking the character, so much as conveying more about the character. The context of a situation is always important, and if Shadow was predictable to the point where we knew exactly what he was going to do at every single moment, (To achieve the level of consistency you seem to strive for.), then he would lose any sort of mystery he had. And correct me if I am wrong, but isn't one of his defining traits being unpredictable? Baring this in mind, by an ironic and obscure twist of logic, by making his personality inconsistent, they are actually making it realistic and consistent. Edited February 3, 2011 by Enraged Psycho

[Kuzu]

For fucks sake.

The quality of a story is NOT defined by how serious it is.

All I fucking hear is "Colours' story was crap because it wasn't serious enough". You're fucking kidding me right?

A story is judged on a number of factors, but seriousness is not one of them. Colours plot, may be simpler, but it is better written, and more condensed than any other Sonic plot barring perhaps 3&K. There were no loop holes. There were no inconsistencies. There were no moments where the plot didn't make any sense.

Yes the scenes may or may not have been ruined by the humour, but what the fuck else were you expecting from a game called Sonic Colours.

If you went into the game, after being told the game was made to be very lighthearted, and expect something like SA2 or Shadow, then you're expecting too much.

The reason Shadow's story was so hated, wasn't because of the fact that it was non-linear. It was in part due to Shadows origin as an alien.

The other part was, the branched story line made no fucking difference to the ending. After having beaten all of the stories, the final story tells you what path Shadow takes, which is basically a false promise. If the last story you completed was Pure Dark, then you're expecting Shadow to destroy the world, but suddenly he changes his mind and rescues it. The characterisation was so horrifyingly inconsistent. Each story had Shadow behaving very differently, almost like 10 different characters.

If there is to be a branched plot, Shadow's personality should remain consistent, but the situations he's put into should be different, depending on the path taken.

In his game, Shadow would go from Selfless hero to an ally-less mercenary to a pathological murderer. THAT is why people despise what ShTH did to Shadow's character.

For a character to be beleived, they need to be consistant, and ShTH made Shadow look Schizophrenic.

Also, Shadow having a sense of humour will add to his character. What's wrong with Shadow making a smartass remark. What's wrong with Shadow being sarchastic. What's wrong with Shadow using a bit of dark humour? Ever heard of a "Dead-pan snarker"? He'd make people laugh, but in a different way.

And again, Colours' style of humour probably isn't permanent. It looked like a one-time deal, because the story and game was designed in that way.

EDIT: Heroes' story is so bad that it isn't even in the same league as Colours. What little plot there was in Team Dark Story was negligable. It was fairly serious, but not even close to something like SA2. It could have been better, but the writers just left it there and if fell flat.

I wanna have your babies Scar.

This is true, to an extent. However, Shadow has been actively evolving in almost every major release thus far, whereas Tails has been relegated to a meager side-kick with no alterior purpose other than to simply be there to help Sonic, which isn't necessarily a bad thing entirely, but S2 introduced them almost as equals, and it was kind of a letdown for Tails. As for Knuckles, well, his delegation into a bone-headed, almost comic-relief character has been hardfelt by many.

I felt they were more or less equals in Colors, but yeah Shadow hasn't really gone through the decline that Tails, and Knuckles have, and like Scar said, it was only in his game, and gone afterwards.

This really says a lot about people's opinions on the characters like Shadow, whom they hate for being "emo" and "whiny" but that can only be applied to his game, and nothing more, whereas people glorify characters like Tails, and Knuckles despite they're decline in character in almost every game.

[RidersDX]

For fucks sake.

The quality of a story is NOT defined by how serious it is.

All I fucking hear is "Colours' story was crap because it wasn't serious enough". You're fucking kidding me right?

A story is judged on a number of factors, but seriousness is not one of them. Colours plot, may be simpler, but it is better written, and more condensed than any other Sonic plot barring perhaps 3&K. There were no loop holes. There were no inconsistencies. There were no moments where the plot didn't make any sense.

Yes the scenes may or may not have been ruined by the humour, but what the fuck else were you expecting from a game called Sonic Colours.

If you went into the game, after being told the game was made to be very lighthearted, and expect something like SA2 or Shadow, then you're expecting too much.

Y'know, I admit it's a factor with my dislike for Colors, but I've said time and time again my main reason for my hate for Colors' story is the overuse of jokes especially in places where it is completely unnecessary. And I came into Colors expecting something like Unleashed, which I could stand and actually enjoy because there wasn't an overuse of humor in it. Colors meanwhile really overuses humor, and I can't even enjoy it. I don't care if there are no loopholes or script errors, it isn't enjoyable, that's that.

The reason Shadow's story was so hated, wasn't because of the fact that it was non-linear. It was in part due to Shadows origin as an alien.

The other part was, the branched story line made no fucking difference to the ending. After having beaten all of the stories, the final story tells you what path Shadow takes, which is basically a false promise. If the last story you completed was Pure Dark, then you're expecting Shadow to destroy the world, but suddenly he changes his mind and rescues it. The characterisation was so horrifyingly inconsistent. Each story had Shadow behaving very differently, almost like 10 different characters.

If there is to be a branched plot, Shadow's personality should remain consistent, but the situations he's put into should be different, depending on the path taken.

In his game, Shadow would go from Selfless hero to an ally-less mercenary to a pathological murderer. THAT is why people despise what ShTH did to Shadow's character.

For a character to be beleived, they need to be consistant, and ShTH made Shadow look Schizophrenic.

The whole point of Shadow was to be able to really take control of Shadow in both story and gameplay, and I really don't know why the game is plagued down for that. Maybe a nice explanation of what happened while Shadow collected the emeralds would've been nice, but those facts that you are condemning ShTH for are things I absolutely praise it for. I love the sense of control I have with Shadow, even if everything I do with him is non-canon.

Also, Shadow having a sense of humour will add to his character. What's wrong with Shadow making a smartass remark. What's wrong with Shadow being sarchastic. What's wrong with Shadow using a bit of dark humour? Ever heard of a "Dead-pan snarker"? He'd make people laugh, but in a different way.

There's nothing wrong with doing that, but I just don't see the need for it. I could see him being developed into that though.

And again, Colours' style of humour probably isn't permanent. It looked like a one-time deal, because the story and game was designed in that way.

Let's hope so.

EDIT: Heroes' story is so bad that it isn't even in the same league as Colours. What little plot there was in Team Dark Story was negligable. It was fairly serious, but not even close to something like SA2. It could have been better, but the writers just left it there and if fell flat.

At least it was more enjoyable then Colors' story, because you're right, they did barely anything with the story. But the story never annoyed the crap out of me like Colors does.

[Scar]

While there was a lack of cohesion overall, I should point out that Shadow's personality devled into being darker/lighter, (if you will) depending on your progression. Also, additional endings were there for the sake of variety, the only canon or 'true' ending was, the absolute final one, so in a realistic sense, his personality was maintianed in terms of canon portrayal, because only the main path actually happened. Those other 'endings were just there for the sake of giving the player other things to do, and implement a different way of 'unlocking' the final area. The inconsistencies exist because of how they structured the game, not because of his actual character. Besides, the whole switching of morality isn't necessarily horrific. Isn't that was he is supposed to be? Morally distraught and confused, and it is represented in the game. Characters do not necessarily have to be completely consistent either, as context elements can bring out sides of characters in a startling ammount of ways, without hurting their overall characterisation. It isn't breaking the character, so much as conveying more about the character. The context of a situation is always important, and if Shadow was predictable to the point where we knew exactly what he was going to do at every single moment, (To achieve the level of consistency you seem to strive for.), then he would lose any sor of mystery he had. Also, isn't one of his personalities defining traits being unpredictable, so it would be argued further that having him act out in many different ways is actually the character-consistent option, as opposed to making stick strictly to a few barebones traits, and then never changing.

I understand where you're coming from on this one.

My problem wasn't the idea, but its execution (as is usually the case with Sonic games).

Shadow was confused and was suffering from amnesia. That's fine. Shadow's confusion should have remained the consistency. His personality just seemed to fluctuate. He'd be extremely violent and aggressive at some points, and selfless at other points. He shouldn't have been any more or less violent or aggressive depending on which path you took. His aggression, and such should have remained consistant, what should have changed, was the decisions he made, based upon the evidence he was given. There were 3 paths he could have taken. Rather than it being explicitly good or bad, it should have been more nebulous. The whole concept of the Black Arms is what ruined it for me, they set up clear antagonists. In a game based on Shadow's emotional confusion, there shouldn't have been a good guy and a bad guy.

My basic idea was to completely remove the Black Arms, because they just ruined his backstory and they also set up clear bad guys; if you wanted the good ending, you defeat the Black Arms. The 3 paths would not be assigned "Good, Neutral and Evil". It would just be Choosing GUN to be your allies, choosing Sonic and friends to be your allies, or choosing to find out the truth yourself. Each ending wouldn't make Shadow implicitly evil, good or neutral, it would just offer him different truths. Each one would give Shadow different choices, and the decisions he makes would define his character, not which side he takes.

EDIT:

@RidersDX

The story didn't annoy you, the script did. Besides, SEGA basically told you what the story was going to be like; for kids. It wasn't enjoyable to you, but it was enjoyable for the people who it was aimed at.

Again, its not Colours story that is the problem, its the script, which didn't appeal to everyone

Edited February 3, 2011 by Scar

[batson]

I think the majority of fans like it when the story takes a more dramatic and serious turn at least during the very end of the game, which is something Colors didn't do. I admit that the whole Sonic-pushing-Tails-into-the-space-elevator thing did actually put some weight into that scene, but the same scene also contained just as much cheesy humor as all the other ones, so yeah, the feel-good feel lasted more or less throughout the entire game. I would really like it if in their next big Sonic title, Sega could at least try to give the big finale some genuine drama, even if the game is otherwise a comedy. For instance, maybe they could have Eggman break into his more serious "im tired of playing games, so just die you little fucker"-mindset that we saw at the end of Tails story in SA1?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But it was dark, and you're trying to say it wasn't. Just cause it may be laughable darkness to you, doesn't make it not dark.

Really? Where? Where did I say SA2 wasn't dark? And where did I also say it was laughable darkness? Because not only did I say that SA2's plot was brilliant by this series standards, I also said that the games after it was either shallow, mild, or laughable.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but are you even reading my words correctly?

Finding a frog and a chao and a blue hedgehog is definitely not as dark as discovering you're possibly a robot.

Discovering you're possibly a robot isn't even dark to begin with. Something dark and serious would be something cruel, tense, or out right evil and sinister to the point that something really, REALLY serious is at stake, and discovering that your possibly a robot doesn't fall within that category even more so considering that it wasn't presented anywhere near as close to anything dark.

And I kept comparing it to Colors because you are trying to say Heroes is as light-hearted as Colors, and that just isn't true.

Yes the hell it is, and this is just sheer denial to claim otherwise.

As cheesy, paper-thin, and easy-going as almost everything was in that game up to the final story, you must be really blind not to see that Heroes is a lighthearted game. The script was cheesy, the atmosphere is one of the most relaxed throughout this series, the characters are not not reacting very tensely to the tasks they've set themselves until the final story.

The lighthearted atmosphere is practically thrown in your face. There's nothing that can put Heroes in any other light from being an overall lighthearted game.

I feel the need to call bullshit on this one.

On which one?

You mean the part where I said "personality-wise he's currently no more developed than the rest of the cast, which is a big hit he took after SA2 where he was a lot more well handled?"

If you're going to chop a sentence to argue the points separately, mincing words the way you did is a very pathetic way to do so to strengthen your arguments. You cut off parts that were every bit as essential to the very point I was making, and that doesn't put you in a better position.

Edited February 4, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[RidersDX]

Really? Where? Where did I say SA2 wasn't dark? And where did I also say it was laughable darkness? Because I said that the games after it was either shallow, mild, or laughable.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but are you even reading my words correctly?

Um, I was referring to Heroes, everyone with a brain would know that SA2 is one of the darkest stories in the Sonic games.

Discovering you're possibly a robot isn't even dark to begin with. Something dark and serious would be something cruel, tense, and out right evil to the point that something really, REALLY serious is at stake, and discovering that your possibly a robot doesn't fall within that category even more so considering that

The tone of Team Dark's story overall just feels very dark for me. Infact, anything really involving Shadow's amnesia and who he really is I'd consider a little deep, even if Heroes is mostly a light hearted game.

Yes the hell it is, and this is just sheer denial to claim otherwise.

As cheesy, paper-thin, and easy-going as almost everything was in that game up to the final story, you must be really blind not to see that Heroes is a lighthearted game. The script was cheesy, the atmosphere is one of the most relaxed throughout this series, the characters are not not reacting very tensely to the tasks they've set themselves until the final story.

The lighthearted atmosphere is practically thrown in your face. There's nothing that can put Heroes in any other light from being an overall lighthearted game.

Okay, when the hell did I say Heroes was a deep and serious and dark game? NEVER. I only said Team Dark's story wasn't light hearted. Maybe you should take your own advice and read my posts carefully yourself.

And really, light hearted stories aren't dealing with deep plotlines in the series. And I feel the suspicions of Shadow being a robot in Heroes is not a light-hearted story, I feel that is very serious, no matter how downgraded it is. Just because there is barely a plot to Heroes, doesn't mean it's light hearted, well, in Team Dark's case at least. I highly doubt Team Dark's story would fit in an atmosphere like Colors.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Um, I was referring to Heroes, everyone with a brain would know that SA2 is one of the darkest stories in the Sonic games.

Then why did you quote the section refering to SA2?

The tone of Team Dark's story overall just feels very dark for me. Infact, anything really involving Shadow's amnesia and who he really is I'd consider a little deep, even if Heroes is mostly a light hearted game.

But there's a difference between being deep and dark. Team Dark doesn't get anywhere beyond being mild at best as opposed to being actually dark. And their plot doesn't get any deeper beyond highlighting the points such as the Shadow clones, which were irrelevant regarding Heroes' plot, but became relevant in part of ShTH's plot.

Okay, when the hell did I say Heroes was a deep and serious and dark game? NEVER.

You didn't read my words correctly, because no where in that which you quoted said anything about you saying that Heroes was a deep, serious, and dark game. I made in obviously clear what I was responding to, when you said: "And I kept comparing it to Colors because you are trying to say Heroes is as light-hearted as Colors, and that just isn't true."

I only said Team Dark's story wasn't light hearted. Maybe you should take your own advice and read my posts carefully yourself.

Oh, I'm reading your posts carefully. But I'm not even sure you're reading your own posts carefully in the parts I'm responding, because you've brought up other parts that you never even said at the time I quoted you and then added extra parts that you never mentioned in order to argue said points against me. That's not how it works.

If you want to use my points against me, you're going to have to pay attention to every detail in what you said as well. That means you need to look back on the very words you used and see what I was responding to before you claim that I wasn't paying attention, and also look at my words and see what I am talking about before you start jumping the gun.

An example being the above quote; no where did I claim that you said Heroes was deep and serious game. Really, find those exact words and I'll give you a cookie.

Just because there is barely a plot to Heroes, doesn't mean it's light hearted, well, in Team Dark's case at least.

Did you even read the words "cheesy, paper-thin, and easy-going" in where you quoted? Team Dark is not excluded from that either.

I highly doubt Team Dark's story would fit in an atmosphere like Colors.

It can, if you write in the interactions in relation to the tone.

The fact that they were in an atmosphere like Heroes only serves to strengthen how well-rounded they are in terms of where they can fit.

Edited February 4, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Glenn]

Apologies for the delayed reply, I had to take an early night on account of these wretched germs (not that I got any sleep anyway).

Okay dude, not trying to be mean, but can it with the whole "it's your opinion" shtick because it doesn't get anyone anywhere. If you want to critique it another way, bring it on, I'm ready to debate. But stating that "it's your opinion" as if no one here is aware of that doesn't help any debate at all.

Having an opinion does not protect anyone from another's criticism and alternative ideas, and to throw out the opinion card in defense of said criticism only serves to invalidate the entire debate as a whole because it winds up hindering criticism and limits the debate.

Y'know, my father once taught me that the difference between a 'debate' and an 'argument' is simply the inclusion of politeness and manners in the former. As such, I find your attitude confrontational, agitated and not entirely conducive to a debate. Rather, you seem determined to force your viewpoint on others (and even going so far as to erroneously state it as fact, which I maintain you simply cannot do when talking about fictional characters of somebody else's creation). Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, you should respect whoever you're talking to, and you showed no respect to Riders back at the top of Page #3.

Yeah, I was being vicious and arrogant, because I'm a vicious and arrogant person. I make no attempt to hide that. 5 years on a message board of people going at each other's throats can do that to someone, and it keeps me from being a pushover.

Ah, I see. So, you're of the stance that, if you can't beat them, join them?

Not to mention that RidersDX said that Sonic Team have degraded Knuckles while making Shadow a well-written character. Now why in the world did you not get onto him for being unfair to Knuckles and treating Shadow as a much better character when they both have serious faults to them, but you got on to me for saying that they're no better than each other and every other character besides Sonic, Tails and Eggman?

I was never talking about fictional characters, that's why. I posted a reply to you because of your rudeness towards Riders, an actual person with feelings and opinions. One can be as rude, or indeed as unfair, to Knuckles and Shadow as they like because they're not real, not here and not involved in the argument.

EDIT: Also, what's with the bolding of our names?

I've found that it helps for easier identification of anybody I may be addressing or involving in my posts. People are the most important element of a message board, after all. Don't you agree?

Anyway, this is a sidetrack and not at all related to Shadow's personality, so I apologise again.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Y'know, my father once taught me that the difference between a 'debate' and an 'argument' is simply the inclusion of politeness and manners in the former. As such, I find your attitude confrontational, agitated and not entirely conducive to a debate.

Yeah, that's pretty much me in a nutshell.

Except for the agitated part...I'm actually pretty calm. Unfortunately, my bluntness may come across as rude to other as opposed to being more direct. To put it simply, I don't dance around the point.

Rather, you seem determined to force your viewpoint on others

Now I'm really not trying to mince your words by cutting this sentence in half, but I'm not trying to force my views on anyone. Not in the way you may think, at least.

I'm more determined to have others open their minds on the other factors at play and make sure people don't neglect them for the sake of playing favorites...does that make sense to you?

(and even going so far as to erroneously state it as fact, which I maintain you simply cannot do when talking about fictional characters of somebody else's creation).

When most of the characters are seen in a hot mess and in a bad light, and even acknowledged by the people in charge of making the games, exactly where would that fall under? Fact or opinion?

Because the folks at Sonic Team are all too aware of the split, they're all to aware of the bad design choices they've made, has went so far as to acknowledge that this series has taken itself too seriously, and is even agrees that there are problems with the characters. They know they haven't been handling the series characters with any sense of quality since ShTH, even though there are people like these aspects. It's not just my viewpoint, and it goes far beyond the majority, so I really fail to see how erroneous it is for me to state something that even the developers themselves highlight as a bad point.

Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, you should respect whoever you're talking to, and you showed no respect to Riders back at the top of Page #3.

I do respect whomever I'm talking to and I was being respectful to Riders.

But that doesn't always mean I'm always going to be nice during a debate or argument, but on the flip-side I don't hold any ill-will towards anyone either. If I have something honest to say, so long as it doesn't go along the lines of sheer bashing and insulting (as in namecalling) and I'm following the rules of the forums, everything is fair game. It wouldn't even matter if you were the one debating/arguing either.

Ah, I see. So, you're of the stance that, if you can't beat them, join them?

Not really.

I'm of the stance that if you can fix it, why throw it away? And that's further reinforced by my other beliefs that even if something isn't broken, improve it.

To me, even the best can be made better, and even the worse can be made better.

I was never talking about fictional characters, that's why. I posted a reply to you because of your rudeness towards Riders, an actual person with feelings and opinions.

Well you're talking to a person who doesn't do feelings and is respectfully, yet brutally honest with what he sees. If anything, I'd say you're being really oversensitive in regards to defending Riders, but who really knows what.

If anything, I may be an asshole and hurt your feelings, but I won't treat you like dirt unless you really deserve it. And trust me when I say that you will know when I'm being an asshole. Right now, this is just a really intense debate, which believe it or not is very common here and is no different in intensity than most of the other debates I've been in.

One can be as rude, or indeed as unfair, to Knuckles and Shadow as they like because they're not real, not here and not involved in the argument.

Uh, no. That's not ever going to fly by with me, and I don't care how fictional they are.

It doesn't further help your case when they were initially the point of the discussion we were having.

I've found that it helps for easier identification of anybody I may be addressing or involving in my posts. People are the most important element of a message board, after all. Don't you agree?

Not really. To me it can come across as hostile and even hateful, which is far above anything I ever want be in a debate.

Edited February 4, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Glenn]

I'm more determined to have others open their minds on the other factors at play and make sure people don't neglect them for the sake of playing favorites...does that make sense to you?

I can appreciate the sentiment, but there are ways of going about such tasks. Blunt, rude and seemingly forceful language is only going to put people on the defensive. If you really want to open people's minds to endless possibilities (pun intended) then you want them to listen, understand and agree. And even though I was not part of the initial debate, and now somewhat regret stepping in to address this issue, I would not have listened to a single word you said because your attitude is so offputting.

I'm sure you have some valid and intelligent points to put across about the Sonic franchise, but my initial reaction would be to doubt and/or ignore your posts because... well, I'm sorry to say, you appear to be something of a bully.

Well you're talking to a person who doesn't do feelings and is respectfully, yet brutally honest with what he sees. If anything, I'd say you're being really oversensitive in regards to defending Riders, but who really knows what.

Oh, I probably am. Without going into too much detail, I'm very old-fashioned when it comes to manners. I also deliberately go out of my way to be a nice guy, and will always leap to the defence of anybody I feel is being targetted or attacked. Whether that's a positive or a negative trait in the 21st Century isn't for me to judge.

It doesn't further help your case when they [shadow and Knuckles] were initially the point of the discussion we were having.

I have no case to make, with regard to Shadow, Knuckles or any other character from the franchise. My opinions are irrelevant on the matter, because I'm talking about the tone of the debate, not the content. That's why I ended my last post, and am repeating now, with an apology for being wildly off-topic and divering discussion from Shadow's personality. And indeed, while I started by disagreeing with your use of opinions as facts, I never said whether I agreed with your core assessment or not.

Not really. To me it can come across as hostile and even hateful, which is far above anything I ever want be in a debate.

Well, for that, I apologise. No offence intended. I was informed that capitalising a word during an online discussion indicated a raised voice, and therefore a threatening tone. Hence, I chose the use of bold to highlight usernames in order to avoid upset. If we should ever debate the franchise, I'll try to remember your objection and tailor my posts accordingly.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I can appreciate the sentiment, but there are ways of going about such tasks. Blunt, rude and seemingly forceful language is only going to put people on the defensive. If you really want to open people's minds to endless possibilities (pun intended) then you want them to listen, understand and agree. And even though I was not part of the initial debate, and now somewhat regret stepping in to address this issue, I would not have listened to a single word you said because your attitude is so offputting.

I'm sure you have some valid and intelligent points to put across about the Sonic franchise, but my initial reaction would be to doubt and/or ignore your posts because... well, I'm sorry to say, you appear to be something of a bully.

A little FYI, we didn't start off the debate with me being rude or confrontational and such. If you came around at the beginning, everything was initially calm or fairly leveled, and only as we went further into the debate did it start building up and getting intense. And that's was the time you came in.

Of course, my initial post did say that what Riders was looking at came off as fanboyish and ignorant, so that doesn't entirely help my case. But at any rate, I would recommend you look at things from the start before you jump in regarding someone's behavior. It doesn't always start with someone being an asshole from the start. I'm what you would call and "Asshole IF provoked", and I haven't been provoked yet.

Oh, I probably am. Without going into too much detail, I'm very old-fashioned when it comes to manners. I also deliberately go out of my way to be a nice guy, and will always leap to the defence of anybody I feel is being targetted or attacked. Whether that's a positive or a negative trait in the 21st Century isn't for me to judge.

Coming from me, it's not a bad trait, but you could do with some more backbone. But each to their own...

However, given then nature of people on the internet, some people will choose to be an asshole first and a decent person never and may yank you by your emotions if you seem to be oversensitive. Luckily, I'm not that type of person.

I have no case to make, with regard to Shadow, Knuckles or any other character from the franchise. My opinions are irrelevant on the matter, because I'm talking about the tone of the debate, not the content. That's why I ended my last post, and am repeating now, with an apology for being wildly off-topic and divering discussion from Shadow's personality. And indeed, while I started by disagreeing with your use of opinions as facts, I never said whether I agreed with your core assessment or not.

Yeah, that's what happens when you go off in tangents like that.

Well, for that, I apologise. No offence intended. I was informed that capitalising a word during an online discussion indicated a raised voice, and therefore a threatening tone. Hence, I chose the use of bold to highlight usernames in order to avoid upset. If we should ever debate the franchise, I'll try to remember your objection and tailor my posts accordingly.

Oh no. You don't have to do that if you don't want to now that I know why you do it. Just given the timing, it just seemed a bit hostile. Any other time it would've been seen in a different light.

And it's not like I didn't know you weren't trying to be offensive. I just found it a bit weird to do as opposed to using the regular font in calling someone by their name, because it isn't like I couldn't pick out the names and such. Using things like the bold is a bit ambiguous, so it's not always going to have the same reaction from the person. But it did give a sense emphasis, so I was wondering whether that was invoking a hostile response or something entirely different.

Edited February 4, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic