Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Big Panda]

6 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Which somehow reminds me--how are things with Kent Taylor going?

Who?

[Your Vest Friend]

1 hour ago, Ernest-Panda said:

Who?

Scott Fulop. 

So far, we've not had an update since last year. 

[NiTROACTiVE]

8 hours ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

Yeah, that last part... I don't think the creators, ESPECIALLY Penders, are EVER giving up their creations. Besides, Ian said it's already highly unlikely that he'll be able to continue the REBOOT, so the chances of the preboot being continued (officially, at least) are next to nil. I'm sorry I sound harsh, but it's just the bitter cold truth.

Ken Penders did say he was willing to make arrangements with people who wanted to use his characters in paid media, and Karl Bollers is OK with people using his characters from what I heard. Despite that, what you said makes it sadder. Because of what Penders started, his and many other creators' characters are most likely never going to appear in official Sonic media again, and if his project fails, what will Penders do from there?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

21 minutes ago, NiTROACTiVE said:

Ken Penders did say he was willing to make arrangements with people who wanted to use his characters in paid media, and Karl Bollers is OK with people using his characters from what I heard. Despite that, what you said makes it sadder. Because of what Penders started, his and many other creators' characters are most likely never going to appear in official Sonic media again, and if his project fails, what will Penders do from there?

Ken Penders said that to save face and try make himself look like the misunderstood unsung hero. His “arrangements” would’ve involved literally getting more control than SEGA, forcing M25YL to be the canon future of the series, wishing to approve every single story that involved his characters in any way shape or form and other things that likely would’ve gotten the license ripped away from Archie even sooner than when it happened. It isn’t feasible, especially for some characters that were only good in Ian’s run of the book and likely only had a smaller fan base compared to the main cast.

[RetroRy]

22 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Scott Fulop. 

So far, we've not had an update since last year. 

Unless you go by Penders usually "inside knowledge", then it's an open and shut case for Scott. An open and shut case that apparently takes a very long time and has no public records of any updates within the past year...

22 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Ken Penders said that to save face and try make himself look like the misunderstood unsung hero. His “arrangements” would’ve involved literally getting more control than SEGA, forcing M25YL to be the canon future of the series, wishing to approve every single story that involved his characters in any way shape or form and other things that likely would’ve gotten the license ripped away from Archie even sooner than when it happened. It isn’t feasible, especially for some characters that were only good in Ian’s run of the book and likely only had a smaller fan base compared to the main cast.

Pretty much this.  Ken has proven himself to be just as manipulative as those he says are out to hurt him and his creativity.  Ken loves to play the victim and starts every argument saying that "Archie can use my characters anytime so as long as they pay me".  While that is a reasonable thing to ask and I agree Archie should have paid royalties to him and other creators, the major problem is there are various terms and conditions within that short statement that people seem to not realize and that are incredibly unreasonable.  He wanted editorial rights over what was done with his characters, overruling even Archie/Sega.  You can't do that with a licensed comic; any comic really that you didn't produce yourself.  He has even stated these conditions back when the lawsuit had just wrapped up.  He laid out a laundry list of rules that were laughable. 

However, the major problem is that a lot of his fanbase chooses to ignore that he has ever said these things when he has gone on record about it.

[Big Panda]

About Locke’s death, I personally always thought the way it was written left his actual fate kind of vague. I know Ian went on record afterward to confirm he is indeed dead, but before then I was honestly left under the assumption that he just disappeared or something.

With that in mind: Penders’ personal mandate that Locke couldn’t die. I was kind of surprised Ian wasn’t forced to change his stance and argue that “Locke was never actually stated to have died” in order to appease the Kenders.

I was equally surprised that the Sonic Saga printing of Enerjak Reborn, which came out after the lawsuit, didn’t alter Julie-Su’s dialogue (“He just went”) to drive up the vagueness.

[NiTROACTiVE]

Besides her deviantART and Facebook, is there any other known way of contacting Aleah Baker (A.K.A. Kureejii Lea)? I'm asking this in case if I wanted to ask her a question.

[Silvereyes]

I talked about this in the IDW thread, but I suppose it's more fitting to talk about it in the actual Archie thread. With me buying the IDW comics, I've started reading up on the Archie run. I must admit, it's been the kind of thing I've been meaning to do for years but it always seemed so intimidating with it having over 200 issues in the main series alone. It seems more approachable now that it has sadly ended. The Archie continuity was one of those things you seem to keep hearing snippits about, like there being a story set 30 years in the future where Shadow was the king or something. Cybershell did a great video as he talked about his memories of the comic when it was clear it had been cancelled and some of the stuff in there he brings up was pretty interesting.

So I have some basic thoughts about the comic so far. I'm currently on issue #138, getting towards the end of Penders run. (I must admit, I don't entirely understand his role on the comic in being the head writer? In the stories, he seems to be credited alot for writing the Knuckles comics and alot of the B stories in the Sonic comic, but alot of the Sonic comics seem to be written by Karl Bollers or other writers. So is Penders like his boss who dictates what the other writers write?)

So here are some basic thoughts on the comic so far:

#1-25(ish): kindof interesting how it has the cast of Satam, but has the tone and comedy of AOSTH. I actually think these issues hold up really well, both in artwork and in writing. I must admit, even when I was younger, I never much cared for AOSTH. It was always a bit too hyperactive for me, at least from memory. I really enjoy the humour here, how the characters are written even if Antoine is basically a giant stereotype. Really just a good, fun comic that would start setting up things in a very goofy way that would turn up later in a far more serious manner like the alternate dimensions via the interstellar highway.

#26(ish)-50: so the comic gets more and more like Satam, and presumably a little bit darker than that show went. (Again, ages since I've seen any of the old Sonic shows.) For the most part, I really like this era. Having reached #138 so far, I actually think the artwork is still the best in the comic so far around this time. I think the comic hits a good combo of seriousness and having comedy and adventure in it. I like how it slowly builds towards the End Game 4 parter, and how it just slowly builds up steam from around #30 to it a big conclusion in #50. I really like End Game, even if it is perhaps a little silly in how overly serious it is, and it kinda sucks that Sally is in a coma for it considering how it really feels like she is the co-protagonist with Sonic of the comic. Still, I think it is pretty good stuff and I like the ending and having the guts to kill off Robotnik.

Sally/Tails/Knuckles/Quest Miniseries: I find these little miniseries they ran around this time pretty interesting. I guess they were trying to guage about who they could perhaps give a 2nd comic to, which ofcourse Knuckles would get down the road. I think the Princess Sally miniseries is a bit of a missed opportunity. It just has her boss around some rookies and the real plot is about Geoffrey St John. I really don't like St John in the comic atall, he just constantly acts like a smarmy prick and seems to exist half the time just so him and Sonic can fight each other over stuff. Hell, I'd argue that the miniseries is more about St John than Sally since it is his plan that is put into motion in the end, and Sally is replaced by a duplicate for half the miniseries, meaning it feels like it is more about him being awesome than it is about us learning anything new with Sally.

I like the Tails miniseries alot more. I like how adventurous it is, with Tails winding up in the Mobius equivelant of Australia, Downunda. The Downunda Freedom Fighters are pretty cool and fun, less so about the Forty Fathoms Freedom Fighters. I like the fact that the Downunda FFs seem to pop up occasionally in the comic, they're a fun lot, with the hippie bird and the koala who seems to be madly in love with Tails.

The Knuckles miniseries is rather interesting. In many regards, it is basically the first part of the whole larger Knuckles story in the comic, which continues with the 2nd miniseries which got extended into the 32 issue comic. I think the fireart Artemetis and the Chaotix work kindof well, and I think it shows how Knuckles works as his own protagonist without justing being Sonic 2.0. I think it is pretty solid in how it sets up a far more story heavy, slightly more mature vibe that the Knuckles comic has.

Sonic Quest is a nice adventure. It makes for a bit of a fun outing, especially when at this point in the comic they havn't done many multi-part stories, so it serves as sort of feature length adventure for Sonic, and has nice nods to Sonic 2 and 3 & Knuckles.

I'll post more of my own thoughts later, don't want to have my web browser crash and lose these paragraphs. I am enjoying the comic for the most part, although I must admit at the part I'm at it does feel like it is in a bit of a slump, at least for me.

[PC the Hedgehog]

14 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

I am enjoying the comic for the most part, although I must admit at the part I'm at it does feel like it is in a bit of a slump, at least for me.

You're in the middle of arguably the worst part of the entire series, though you're also starting one of the best stories the book EVER had (Return To Angel Island). Then it goes back downhill until Ian takes over in 160. You're almost out of the woods, kid.

On 5/14/2018 at 1:00 AM, PublicEnemy1 said:

Besides, Ian said it's already highly unlikely that he'll be able to continue the REBOOT...

"Highly unlikely?"  Why would they even think of going back to the Archie reboot storyline when they already started their own continuity? 

[Silvereyes]

3 minutes ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

You're in the middle of arguably the worst part of the entire series, though you're also starting one of the best stories the book EVER had (Return To Angel Island). Then it goes back downhill until Ian takes over in 160. You're almost out of the woods, kid.

Yeah I can see why. I actually really like the 10th anniversary story in #124-#125, where practically every character shows up to stop some aliens, and seeing Sonic teleported into space for a few issues is rather fun. But holy shit, the stuff when Sonic arrives back is pretty awful, like him and Sally angsting each other, and Antoine and Bunnie are pissed at each other. Some of the artwork is atrocious, I'm reading #138 right now and while it might be a good story, I seriously think it is the worst art in the entire comic so far, same with #134.

[PC the Hedgehog]

18 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

Yeah I can see why. I actually really like the 10th anniversary story in #124-#125, where practically every character shows up to stop some aliens, and seeing Sonic teleported into space for a few issues is rather fun. But holy shit, the stuff when Sonic arrives back is pretty awful, like him and Sally angsting each other, and Antoine and Bunnie are pissed at each other. Some of the artwork is atrocious, I'm reading #138 right now and while it might be a good story, I seriously think it is the worst art in the entire comic so far, same with #134.

Not a Jon Gray fan, eh? Thankfully for you, he only does stories here and there before becoming the official "Off Panel" artist later down the line. His current art style he uses for the IDW comics is much less cartoony and more Sonic-cy.

[Silvereyes]

1 minute ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

Not a Jon Gray fan, eh? Thankfully for you, he only does stories here and there before becoming the official "Off Panel" artist later down the line. His current art style he uses for the IDW comics is much less cartoony and more Sonic-cy.

I'm afraid not, no. I guess his style has a sort of fluidity to it, but it looks so vastly different to the other artists, and I don't think it suits the Sonic style atall.

 

[E-122-Psi]

I don't think his style particularly helped make Sally look sympathetic in that arc. I mean most of the panels during the infamous scenes she's actually in 'demon face' mode. I don't know whether it was in the script or not, but he didn't have any build up/reaction shots for Sally after...the moment...to humanise her either. Like a panel before of it sinking in before she snaps, and then after a look of shock or remorse before Sonic tears into her and drives her temper again. That could have made all the difference.

Gray would probably work better for comedic stories, but he kept being given serious ones that needed some degree of subtlety in emotions.

[DabigRG]

31 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

 

Really just a good, fun comic that would start setting up things in a very goofy way that would turn up later in a far more serious manner like the alternate dimensions via the interstellar highway.

 

I really love the Cosmic Interstate as a concept, especially since it really fits Sonic.

31 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

and it kinda sucks that Sally is in a coma for it considering how it really feels like she is the co-protagonist with Sonic of the comic.

Fun fact: Sally was originally supposed to die from the fall. Endgame was gonna be the finale for the book at the time, but SEGA kept it going thanks to the book's popularity. Also, when this happened, Penders intended for the revised ending to later be revealed to be an Auto Automaton of Sally that would sabotage the Freedom Fighters from the inside. SEGA eventually caught wind of this as well and put the kabosh on it after Issue 51 or so.

31 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

Sally/Tails/Knuckles/Quest Miniseries: I find these little miniseries they ran around this time pretty interesting. I guess they were trying to guage about who they could perhaps give a 2nd comic to, which ofcourse Knuckles would get down the road. I think the Princess Sally miniseries is a bit of a missed opportunity. It just has her boss around some rookies and the real plot is about Geoffrey St John. I really don't like St John in the comic atall, he just constantly acts like a smarmy prick and seems to exist half the time just so him and Sonic can fight each other over stuff. Hell, I'd argue that the miniseries is more about St John than Sally since it is his plan that is put into motion in the end, and Sally is replaced by a duplicate for half the miniseries, meaning it feels like it is more about him being awesome than it is about us learning anything new with Sally.

 

Well, the original plan for the Princess Sally Miniseries was for Sally to stumble upon a civilization of sentient Robians in the sewers of Robotropolis, with a roboticized Queen Alicia as the leader. I forget the other specifics behind it's development, but I know it was apparently partially mandated by SEGA, who had interest in Sally as a flagship character at the time(hence revoking her intended death) and was using the mini-series to gauge how marketable she could be.

31 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

 

The Knuckles miniseries is rather interesting. In many regards, it is basically the first part of the whole larger Knuckles story in the comic, which continues with the 2nd miniseries which got extended into the 32 issue comic. I think the fireart Artemetis and the Chaotix work kindof well, and I think it shows how Knuckles works as his own protagonist without justing being Sonic 2.0. I think it is pretty solid in how it sets up a far more story heavy, slightly more mature vibe that the Knuckles comic has.

I'm trying to remember that mini-series, but all I'm remembering are Enerjak's introduction and the fact that there's a map of his fortress included.

[SBR2]

2 hours ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

 

"Highly unlikely?"  Why would they even think of going back to the Archie reboot storyline when they already started their own continuity? 

IDW do that every now and then. It'd be it's own separate series probably give it a subtitle so it's easyto tell apart from the main book.

[PC the Hedgehog]

43 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

IDW do that every now and then. It'd be it's own separate series probably give it a subtitle so it's easyto tell apart from the main book.

Really? Huh. Now that would be interesting to see!

[PublicEnemy1]

15 minutes ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

Really? Huh. Now that would be interesting to see!

And Ian also has interest of bringing back the reboot continuity to finish it.

[Silvereyes]

8 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I really love the Cosmic Interstate as a concept, especially since it really fits Sonic.

Fun fact: Sally was originally supposed to die from the fall. Endgame was gonna be the finale for the book at the time, but SEGA kept it going thanks to the book's popularity. Also, when this happened, Penders intended for the revised ending to later be revealed to be an Auto Automaton of Sally that would sabotage the Freedom Fighters from the inside. SEGA eventually caught wind of this as well and put the kabosh on it after Issue 51 or so.

Well, the original plan for the Princess Sally Miniseries was for Sally to stumble upon a civilization of sentient Robians in the sewers of Robotropolis, with a roboticized Queen Alicia as the leader. I forget the other specifics behind it's development, but I know it was apparently partially mandated by SEGA, who had interest in Sally as a flagship character at the time(hence revoking her intended death) and was using the mini-series to gauge how marketable she could be.

I'm trying to remember that mini-series, but all I'm remembering are Enerjak's introduction and the fact that there's a map of his fortress included.

Wow, a couple of Sega decisions I can stand behind. I think if Endgame was going to be the finale, killing off Sally in it is just way too dark for my taste, I'd rather it be more in line with how Satam ended. I think the original idea for the Princess Sally miniseries is a bit better than what we wound up with if you ask me, since it would of centered around Sally a bit more.

You seem to know alot about the behind the scene stuff. Can I ask, how involved is Penders in the comic? I'm curious because I notice he doesn't get credited for writing most of the Sonic A stories, but was he ordering the writers what to do for those stories?

10 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I don't think his style particularly helped make Sally look sympathetic in that arc. I mean most of the panels during the infamous scenes she's actually in 'demon face' mode. I don't know whether it was in the script or not, but he didn't have any build up/reaction shots for Sally after...the moment...to humanise her either. Like a panel before of it sinking in before she snaps, and then after a look of shock or remorse before Sonic tears into her and drives her temper again. That could have made all the difference.

Gray would probably work better for comedic stories, but he kept being given serious ones that needed some degree of subtlety in emotions.

You know, reading some more of Gray's issues after reading this comment, and I kindof agree. He can do comedy pretty well, I just think his style does not fit for the comic when it is trying to be serious or dramatic or action packed. The Return to Angel Island is a good story but I think Gray was not the right artist for it personally.

[SBR2]

12 hours ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

Really? Huh. Now that would be interesting to see!

It doesn't happen much but occasionally they do it. They continue the Marvel G.I. Je Book and also let Simon Furman finish up his Transformers run from that continuity. They're going to finish the Image comics TMNT run with the original Writer and artist too.

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, silvereye27 said:

 I think the original idea for the Princess Sally miniseries is a bit better than what we wound up with if you ask me, since it would of centered around Sally a bit more.

 

Yeah, while I do have a bit soft spot for things around the miniseries, I do feel that Sally really didn't have as much involvement as her topbilling would have suggested.

Indeed, one serious hangup for Preboot!Sally was the fact that there wasn't much focus on her character as there was the lore, major supporting characters, and occasionally the romantic angles around her character, even compared to Knuckles. Especially compared.

4 hours ago, silvereye27 said:

 

You seem to know alot about the behind the scene stuff. Can I ask, how involved is Penders in the comic? I'm curious because I notice he doesn't get credited for writing most of the Sonic A stories, but was he ordering the writers what to do for those stories?

No. That's kinda the editor's job.

From my understanding, Mr. Penders was simply on the book longer than any other writer besides Mr. Flynn and was responsible for many of the biggest, memorable concepts of the preboot. There were other major and minor writers at the time, like Mike Gallaugher, Karl Bollers, and Dan Slott, who created other concepts and wrote different things in the book.

[E-122-Psi]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Yeah, while I do have a bit soft spot for things around the miniseries, I do feel that Sally really didn't have as much involvement as her topbilling would have suggested.

Indeed, one serious hangup for Preboot!Sally was the fact that there wasn't much focus on her character as there was the lore, major supporting characters, and occasionally the romantic angles around her character, even compared to Knuckles. Especially compared.

That was a key problem for Archie Sally, she was too vanilla, mostly there to foil more abrasive members like Sonic, and openings for possible character foibles and quirks seemed to be things the writers didn't like to admit existed. Mostly just things happened AROUND her. In her mini series they pretty much just gave us Geoffery and Hamlin to act as a poor man's Sonic and Antoine while Sally was just the somewhat dull competent one.

I think they were too adamant in making Sally the nice sensible one of the Freedom Fighters (despite you know, that being Rotor, Bunnie, Dulcy, NICOLE, and later even Antoine too for the most part) but you can't really make an interesting lead that is just nice and sensible and only has circumstantial hang ups. Spark of Life was a halfway attempt to rectify this, but it was too superficial, and ultimately even Big was a more memorable part of the story (a Big Universe arc should have happened).

[DabigRG]

24 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

I think they were too adamant in making Sally the nice sensible one of the Freedom Fighters (despite you know, that being Rotor, Bunnie, Dulcy, NICOLE, and later even Antoine too for the most part) but you can't really make an interesting lead that is just nice and sensible and only has circumstantial hang ups. 

Eh, I'd say Bunnie is more down to earth while NICOLE is more based around technicalities.

Also, Dulcy?

25 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 Spark of Life was a halfway attempt to rectify this, but it was too superficial, and ultimately even Big was a more memorable part of the story (a Big Universe arc should have happened).

To be fair, that was really a NICOLE story, with Sally as the deuteragonist due to the synonymous connection between the two.

[E-122-Psi]

10 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, I'd say Bunnie is more down to earth while NICOLE is more based around technicalities.

Also, Dulcy?

To be fair, that was really a NICOLE story, with Sally as the deuteragonist due to the synonymous connection between the two.

The problem often they were so ill limelighted you could barely tell the difference. The Freedom Fighters didn't really have a lot of foibles or quirks compared to the games/original comic characters. If Robotnik or other bad guys hadn't affected their lives they'd likely be every men with little character agency at all.

Dulcy stopped being bumbling comic relief ages ago, even more so than Antoine.

A large amount of the story was still through Sally's POV however. She was essentially the supporting protagonist.

[Silvereyes]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

 

From my understanding, Mr. Penders was simply on the book longer than any other writer besides Mr. Flynn and was responsible for many of the biggest, memorable concepts of the preboot. There were other major and minor writers at the time, like Mike Gallaugher, Karl Bollers, and Dan Slott, who created other concepts and wrote different things in the book.

OK, so it was more the case that he was one of the bigger contributers rather than him actually being in charge of everything. OK, that makes sense. So I guess he is attributed to some of the bad decisions in the comic that would cause him to eventually be fired by Archie?

As for Sally, I do think it is worth mentioning that with her character being like that from Satam, back then in the '90s, alot of cartoon programmes as well as other '90s shows would often have a majority male cast with a token female, but the token female was often made to be very capable and serious, and in the process, wind up very bland and dull. I don't think it was that bad for Satam in particular, especially with Bunnie so it wasn't just Sally in the main cast, but I do think that's why her character can be a bit weaker when she is utilised alot in a long running comic series.

Mind you, I do find it funny how many love interests they seem to of tried to give Sally, like with Antoine crushing on her, St John in love with her, Sonic in love with her, and even Knuckles turning out to have a childhood romance with her, it does get a little silly. Likewise in the comic they also set up a love triangle between Sonic, Sally and Mine the Mongoose. I actually like Mina alot, but I don't think a Sonic comic needs a love triangle.

[E-122-Psi]

I get that, but the problem was that Archie never really grew out of that. It only really had a few more diverse female characters in it's whole run, the rest were still mostly cookie cutter no-nonsense foils to the males who shown all those chauvinistic boys who was boss. It was 90s girl power up until the 2010s.

Even at that I think Sally and Bunnie had plenty openings for quirks in the Satam cartoon and early comics, even if they weren't really grasped much. Sally could be no-nonsense and meticulous to the point of being a grouchy control freak while Bunnie being a cowgirl could easily be given a plucky abrasive side. They were archetypes that have been fleshed out well in other cartoons and franchises to be entertaining on their own (eg. Twilight Sparkle and Applejack).

It's odd how even the comic when it was TRYING to make them flawed (to the point of shoving it in our faces for Sally in the end) like they couldn't really grasp any sort of consistent vice for them.