Why do some people 'round here not like Sonic Unleashed?

[Candescence]

After reading many of the anti-Unleashed posts on this board, what I find highly ironic and hilarious is that people are being hypocrites by complaining about the game and level design being trial-and-error-based.

Well, good news, guys. Many of the past Sonic games are heavily relied on trial-and-error. More specifically, Sonic 3 & Knuckles! That game itself is DESIGNED on trial-and-error. The stage-specific platforming, all the bosses, the puzzles, and Doomsday Zone controls (particularly in damaging Eggman) are just some examples. The trial-and-error design and puzzles are some of the key secrets why S3&K was successful to start with.

Uh... Hate to break it to you, but the sort of trial-and-error in Unleashed is nothing like S3&K. Unleashed's trial-and-error is the bad sort, at least S3&K was actually fair.

And I can name one great example of trial-and-error gameplay from S3&K that I'm sure all of you remember: the Carnival Night barrel! Completely trial-and-error. VERY little to no clues as to HOW to solve it. You have to guess in order to finally pass it.

The barrel of doom... Is a bit of a exception to what I just said. It's a massive Guide Dang It, but at least it gives you ages to try and figure it out, and, unlike Unleashed's stuff, doesn't kill you instantly, heck, it doesn't even damage you. It's a harmless obstacle... Well, until the timer hits 10 minutes, that is.

Unleashed is absolutely no exception. All Sonic Team (and Dimps for the Daytime Wii/PS2 version) did was take the trial-and-error roots from the past games and make it more extreme and more difficult.

No, they simply did it badly, if they were even trying. End of story.

Edited December 25, 2009 by The Sniper

[Sega DogTagz]

Look again, my reaction time is worse than average (avg: 215, me: 261. Even my lowest was at around 220). If there's any bias, it's more likely to be in the other direction, this test strikes me as the sort of thing that people who play video games would find.

My bad, I'll call you an outliner than. I would still think that the average gamer would hold a better reaction time than the 215 boasted by normies. I still think that quantifying Unleashed with 215 represents a bias, and that comparing it to your slower score even more-so.

I went and took a stab at the test, and on my second go though, I posted a 204. (the first one ended up with a 212, cause I botched the last one lol). I thought that was pretty good for my laggy little laptop. I probably could tee off on this thing if I was using a trigger or controller. Still, looking at 24-hour high scores like 166 reaction time aggregates makes me wary of a 215 benchmark posted by commoners.

I would also like to throw out there that this "average data" is compacted only for people who play this game. So far, it only measures 2075637 clicks (which you must divide by at least 5 to find out how many people played) which amounts to a meager sample of at most 415,200 (which is not the case because many of the same people replay the game).

We need a better data source. This one is not reliable enough.

I also mentioned previously that the reaction test this average came from a test with much simpler recognition requirements than anything you're going to find in Sonic Unleashed. There's an entire extra mental step involved. There's also the matter of difficulty in recognizing hazards. They're often small in size and this problem is compounded by the game's motion blur. I don't know if this is a problem for everyone, but I have a an easier (thus faster) time recognizing things at 60 FPS. These factors are harder to measure, but are nontrivial.

I'll get back to you on speed. I don't notice a significant difference in max speed between even level 1 and max. I've hypothesized for a while that this stat affects acceleration more than speed. I might not be able to devise a good test as I have no working capture hardware.

I already understand the difficulty in attempting to measure the lags and blurs of Unleashed. We might be screwed on quantifying that one. I also agree that Unleashed would hold an extra step in the mental process, but at the same time the game offers more in the way of solutions. Most obstructions can be successfully executed in several ways, thus lowering the burden of identifying a singular solution and serves to speed up the process.

As for the speed, I always like to look to Arid Sands. At the end of the stage, when all the pillars fall down on top of you, A lower level Sonic would not be able to make it through the chasm before they all fell. Even a modestly leveled up Sonic would find himself getting squished. Only at the Max end does Sonic have the speed necessary to clear that area. No acceleration involved, just Top Speed.

(I am sure that he gains something in the accl department, but I believe there is a substantial increase in top end velocity).

Edited December 25, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[azoo]

After reading many of the anti-Unleashed posts on this board, what I find highly ironic and hilarious is that people are being hypocrites by complaining about the game and level design being trial-and-error-based.

Well, good news, guys. Many of the past Sonic games are heavily relied on trial-and-error. More specifically, Sonic 3 & Knuckles! That game itself is DESIGNED on trial-and-error. The stage-specific platforming, all the bosses, the puzzles, and Doomsday Zone controls (particularly in damaging Eggman) are just some examples. The trial-and-error design and puzzles are some of the key secrets why S3&K was successful to start with.

With Doomsday Zone I could understand, but with others I truly can't. Anything else in S3K was anything but the hardcore trial-and-error we're getting at. You missed a platform? Well, fine, get back up there and try again. The game was forgivable, which is something that Unleashed isn't (except for the whole 1-Up deal, which is actually very cheap of them). S3K didn't kill you if you missed a platform in nearly any area, probably besides Flying Battery (which was actually relevant since it was at a sky base). Level design was made to where that if you failed the first time, you could try again without feeling bad about it. In Unleashed, if you miss a platform or don't a complete a certain QTE, you die, and you're forced to try again, and then in the end you get a terrible ranking because of one foul-up. S3K never made it to where you were just running along and all of the sudden-- HOLY CRAP BOTTOMLESS PIT / ENEMY / HAZARD ARGH IM DEAD, whenever people should understand that Unleashed is notable for this, and rather often as well.That's not fair if you ask me.

And I can name one great example of trial-and-error gameplay from S3&K that I'm sure all of you remember: the Carnival Night barrel! Completely trial-and-error. VERY little to no clues as to HOW to solve it. You have to guess in order to finally pass it.

Like said before, but you didn't die because you couldn't pass it. The only thing that stopped you in the classics was the time limit, and even that isn't that hard to evade.

Unleashed is absolutely no exception. All Sonic Team (and Dimps for the Daytime Wii/PS2 version) did was take the trial-and-error roots from the past games and make it more extreme and more difficult.

No, they took the forgiving level design code of previous Sonic games and bent and distorted it to ultra-linear, tiral-and-error reflex test bullcrap. Although you can't say that about the WiiS2 version, since that game was basically the opposite of PS360 version; being completely barren and boring.

And dangit, Sniper, I just basically wrote everything you said.

[Remy]

I can't believe you fuckers are comparing figuring out how to beat Robotnik in Doomsday Zone to unleashed fucking impossible reaction time bullshit insta kills.

despicable.

[azoo]

I wasn't exactly, I was just saying that Doomsday Zone is a little more on the trial-and-error-leading-to-death kind of side, which is really only because of the ring limit. At least it did give you rings, though, which does make it all the fairer.

[Shiny Gems]

Okay, after not replying to my own topic here, I am not stepping into the trial and error issue.

For those who think the trial and error in Sonic Unleashed is unfair and that bad, I find the reasoning behind as to why, coming from those such as Tornado, The Sniper and Azuraka are so faulty and overexaggerated to beyond belief. First, let me point out that the reasons that were pointed out by the people such as the ones I mentioned about why they think the trial and error in Sonic Unleashed was that "bad" is based more on their frustration they had when playing the game, and not on any absoulte, objective fact. Let me inform you guys that frustration, especially when considering the trial and error of this game, is, no matter how you feel about it, downright relative. That means that everyone in this whole darn planet does not get frustrated the same way about any given subject, for everyone gets frustrated differently about anything. That means just because you think the trial and error in this game was bad in your point of view, does not mean it is automatically bad to every single other person out there in the same way. No! It does not work that way.

In fact, I know that many of those around the internet who liked the daytime levels in Sonic Unleashed (the Xbox 360 asnd PS3 versions, specifically), there are plenty of those who gave detailed, well thought out reviews of that game, and apparently, though they may have been still annoyed by Eggmanland, those guys did not even mentioned how bad the trial and error was in that game. Why?

Because the daytime levels were still fun to those guys, and many of them were not as frustrated as some of you were when they went through such challenges. They did not cry or whine about how hard or unfair the levels were whenever they lost a life. In fact, they mostly thought "Eh, I'll just keep trying until my skills get better, and who knows? Maybe This (the trial and error thing the player is currently going through) won't be bad at all when I play it again later!" and such. Now, why would they think that way? Because that is what gamers do: they pratice and learn from their mistakes so they can get better the next time they play. These players, by looking at their online thoughts about the daytime levels of Sonic Unleashed, did not get bothered or frustrated about the trial and error in this game as you did, and even if some did, not all of them got so frustrated as any of you guys. Why? Because frustration, like I said, is relative, and everyone has their own tolerance on things before getting really frustrated and does so at different speeds; so there are plenty of people in this world who are not easily as frustrated with the daytime levels of SU as much as some of you guys were, not to mention that they found the game much fun while you did not because you were frustrated with the levels.

These gamers are willing to keep trying and get better by learning from their mistakes while playing the daytime levels, and not cry and whine about the difficulty like/as easily as you would be. Plus, considering the many people, especially outside this forum, liked the daytime levels of Sonic Unleashed, I am sure the trial and error difficulty did not bother them at all, or like it bothered you.

That said, I noticed that some of you guys overexaggerated the trial and error difficulty to the point where it would look like a scientific fact based on what (some of you) guys said, which is just based on frustration and bias, which, in this case, is big enough to make many faults built into your reasoning about why you think those levels are so bad. Well, let me mention, even if saying this is not necessary, no matter how much you hate the daytime levels, no matter how many people agree with you about the daytime levels, no matter how frustrated you were with those levels, what you say or think about anything (not just the daytime levels of SU 360/PS3) will never make up a pure, objective fact that states that the daytime levels are bad just because you say so.

NO! It does not work that way, for no matter how many opinions agree with one another, they are still an opinion, not a fact, and comparing the diffculty of the daytime levels of Sonic Unleashed to the difficulty of the classic Genesis Sonic games will not change that at all. Even if you tried to get others to agree with you on how bad the daytime levels were with reasons based on your frustration and bias, and considering how many liked the daytime levels even in the 360/PS3 version, they don't even have to agree, or even care.

They would just say things like "that's just your opinion, not mine" or, if you are unlucky, "you need some practice". Speaking, while the daytime levels of SU and the gameplay of the classic Sonic games were mainly "get to point A to point B", how they played and how they were made are still different in comparision in plenty of ways. You can't just say the classic level design and "fairness of difficulty" in the classic games are better than the daytime levels of Sonic Unleashed just because you find them easier and think that can be considered a universal fact. No! In the long run, those two things are different things, and not everyone gets just as frustrated, or even hates the daytime stages like some of you. In fact, there are even plenty of people who would rather play the daytime levels of SU than play the classics over and over just because someone like you say that the classics are easier, no matter how much you deny it. It is all based on personal preference, which is relative, varies from person to person and therefore, is not, and never will be exactly the same in terms of point of view as you think of any Sonic game.

While you may think that the daytime levels were too hard, they were made to go with the very fast speed of the levels and added a different style of trial and error challange that was mainly different from perhaps any past Sonic game. Sure, some people, including some of you, may have gotten frustrated so easily, but not everyone gets so frustrated to the point that they think the levels suck, for they can still love or like the levels noneoftheless, especially if they think they were fun, which many do. Also, if you still do not like the daytime stages in SU 360/PS3, fine. Just don't think others have to agree with you no matter what, for they do not have to. I am saying this because, though I could be wrong, some of you guys seem to be acting that way.

Well, I just had to let this all out, and knowing some of you guys, I will just end this post by saying: Any Objections?

Edited December 26, 2009 by Flamerstreak

[Dark Qiviut]

now if they were smart they would allow you to race online with other players, that would solve the replayablity problem for me anyway.

If they did that, then the developers would've made a STUPID move. The game was built on ONE character throughout almost the entire game. And the levels aren't designed for multiplayer. It was a one-player game since Sonic Team came up with this idea. They were not going to conform to those who yearn for a multi-player option. Also, the game is massive enough as it IS. Putting in a needless two-player option would've done nothing except use up memory that Sonic Team could've used for other parts of the game. A game CAN be replayable without having to resort to the overrated multiplayer option, you know.

And what's up with the rankings... since SA2 I have despised those things, such a cheap way of "extending" gameplay.

What you call "cheap" I call "smart." The rankings do allow players to "extend" the gameplay. But for an extra reason: to actually get BETTER at playing and understanding the game's mechanics.

[Remy]

So Flamestreak, basically you're right and we're wrong?

You're just as bad as the people you're ranting about.

[Shiny Gems]

So Flamestreak, basically you're right and we're wrong?

You're just as bad as the people you're ranting about.

I am afraid you have misterpeted what I am saying.

I was just reminding everyone while we have a right to our opinion, we should not expect everyone else to agree with what we think, no matter how strongly we feel about something. Some people are just not frustrated or bothered by things like the daytime levels as easily as some of us may be, and no one can change another's feelings about things like the daytime levels to their own favor. That is just what I am talking about.

Plus, when did I say anything about me being right and others being wrong? What made you come to that conclusion? You should not be hasty in coming to conclusions such as in this situation. I did not say anything about me being right or everyone else being wrong, nor did I mean it, so please try thinking a little more clearly before you make an assumption that may most likely be false.

[Phos]

You made this thread asking why people who don't like Unleashed hold that opinion.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think I have a clue on who's abusing the rep system.

For those who think the trial and error in Sonic Unleashed is unfair and that bad, I find the reasoning behind as to why, coming from those such as Tornado, The Sniper and Azuraka are so faulty and overexaggerated to beyond belief.

Exaggerated? They've been spot on with their frustration of the game so far, and this is coming from someone who actually enjoys Unleashed to an extent.

The biggest fail in Unleashed's trial-and-error system is just what they outlined: You're going too damn fast before you realized you hit something harmful or life-ending. Some levels are fair (depending on what would be defined as fair in Unleashed) such as Spagonia and Mazuri, however others end up spiking the difficulty to much harder levels that a simple miss of a QTE or an accidental press of the boost would be signing a contract to death and examples such as Empire City and Eggmanland are good examples.

For a trial-and-error system to be good, it would have to be so fun that you actually enjoy getting your ass kicked by the game, or one that can easily allow you to try another idea without having the same results several times before actually succeeding in passing a section with that same ONE idea you were tying to use. An example would be Chun-nan's Werehog stage with the balance beams while carrying the keystone over to it's destination. Some experience that one slight tilt in the wrong direction will have them on the verge of death, and while you can save your self by reacting appropriately you end up having to start the whole thing over.

If we're going to use a daytime part as an example, all the stages serve as a good example. The whole game's daytime stage is designed around moving from point A to B as fast as you fucking can, and that tempts people to press on the boost button in order to get to the peak of Sonic's speed. Unfortunately, that boost's blessing can quickly turn into a curse when that person who ends up going to fast to react to everything going on around them at that speed ends up missing a jump they were suppose to hit before they even realized it. The people you're asking on this topic wouldn't be hating the game if that weren't the case.

The enjoyment of Unleashed is clearly split between those who love the game and those who find it faulty, and even those who sit in-between.

First, let me point out that the reasons that were pointed out by the people such as the ones I mentioned about why they think the trial and error in Sonic Unleashed was that "bad" is based more on their frustration they had when playing the game, and not on any absoulte, objective fact. Let me inform you guys that frustration, especially when considering the trial and error of this game, is, no matter how you feel about it, downright relative. That means that everyone in this whole darn planet does not get frustrated the same way about any given subject, for everyone gets frustrated differently about anything. That means just because you think the trial and error in this game was bad in your point of view, does not mean it is automatically bad to every single other person out there in the same way. No! It does not work that way.

I think I'm understanding what Remz meant when he said to me that the "It's your Opinion" argument is the worst argument ever...

In fact, I know that many of those around the internet who liked the daytime levels in Sonic Unleashed (the Xbox 360 asnd PS3 versions, specifically), there are plenty of those who gave detailed, well thought out reviews of that game, and apparently, though they may have been still annoyed by Eggmanland, those guys did not even mentioned how bad the trial and error was in that game. Why?

Because the daytime levels were still fun to those guys, and many of them were not as frustrated as some of you were when they went through such challenges. They did not cry or whine about how hard or unfair the levels were whenever they lost a life. In fact, they mostly thought "Eh, I'll just keep trying until my skills get better, and who knows? Maybe This (the trial and error thing the player is currently going through) won't be bad at all when I play it again later!" and such. Now, why would they think that way? Because that is what gamers do: they pratice and learn from their mistakes so they can get better the next time they play. These players, by looking at their online thoughts about the daytime levels of Sonic Unleashed, did not get bothered or frustrated about the trial and error in this game as you did, and even if some did, not all of them got so frustrated as any of you guys. Why? Because frustration, like I said, is relative, and everyone has their own tolerance on things before getting really frustrated and does so at different speeds; so there are plenty of people in this world who are not easily as frustrated with the daytime levels of SU as much as some of you guys were, not to mention that they found the game much fun while you did not because you were frustrated with the levels.

And yet for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, just because these people on the internet enjoy the Daytime stages of Unleashed and give well thought out reasons on why they like it doesn't mean that someone who gives well thought out reasons why they don't like them are exaggerating anything.

But hey, you made the topic. You wanted to know why others felt no enjoyment in Unleashed, and now you're saying their exaggerating everything. Quite a wordy way of saying "I'm right, you're wrong", huh? You never said it, but you certainly do come across that way to those who you just ranted against.

Edited December 26, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kintor]

Exaggerated? They've been spot on with their frustration of the game so far, and this is coming from someone who actually enjoys Unleashed to an extent.

The biggest fail in Unleashed's trial-and-error system is just what they outlined: You're going too damn fast before you realized you hit something harmful or life-ending. Some levels are fair (depending on what would be defined as fair in Unleashed) such as Spagonia and Mazuri, however others end up spiking the difficulty to much harder levels that a simple miss of a QTE or an accidental press of the boost would be signing a contract to death and examples such as Empire City and Eggmanland are good examples.

For a trial-and-error system to be good, it would have to be so fun that you actually enjoy getting your ass kicked by the game, or one that can easily allow you to try another idea without having the same results several times before actually succeeding in passing a section with that same ONE idea you were tying to use. An example would be Chun-nan's Werehog stage with the balance beams while carrying the keystone over to it's destination. Some experience that one slight tilt in the wrong direction will have them on the verge of death, and while you can save your self by reacting appropriately you end up having to start the whole thing over.

If we're going to use a daytime part as an example, all the stages serve as a good example. The whole game's daytime stage is designed around moving from point A to B as fast as you fucking can, and that tempts people to press on the boost button in order to get to the peak of Sonic's speed. Unfortunately, that boost's blessing can quickly turn into a curse when that person who ends up going to fast to react to everything going on around them at that speed ends up missing a jump they were suppose to hit before they even realized it. The people you're asking on this topic wouldn't be hating the game if that weren't the case.

The enjoyment of Unleashed is clearly split between those who love the game and those who find it faulty, and even those who sit in-between.

You use the phrase ‘trial and error’ like it is some kind of slur, that’s hardly fair; no game should be condemned simply by virtue of how it was made. That being said, you’ve made one important point – games should be fun. However, deciding what can be fun about a game is harder then it seems. For the most part, enjoyment is an entirely subjective experience, forever dependent to an individual’s unique tastes and pre-existing perceptions. Controversial though the idea may be, I think that gaming is much like an art form, although being perhaps closer to Hollywood’s idea of beauty then anything stored within the Louvre. So much of what we discuss here is just a matter of opinion, the price of enjoying any creative medium.

As a fanbase we love to reminisce about the good old days. However, these memories also simply so much opinion, they will always be altered whatever perceptions we currently have. Truthfully, we are not the same people who first played those Sonic games back in the early nineties. This is to say nothing of people who came later to the series, although they may or may not enjoy the older games, their reasons for doing so are going to be slightly different; all old games must now be viewed in a uncomfortable modern context. Perceptions are always changing, what we think of S3&K now will also change, this game is an ever changing idea at the mercy of future events, as are all Sonic games.

Currently it would seem that the Sonic game to beat is Sonic Unleashed, a tile held in high regard by most concerned within the fanbase. It is interesting to consider why Sonic Unleashed is so important in the first place. There have been so many Sonic games made in recent years, one rising above the rest like this is truly remarkable. No doubt, this game’s availability plays an important role, Sonic Unleashed is a game released for every platform this generation and even the aging Playstation 2. Ever since the Dreamcast was discontinued we’ve all gone our separate ways to different consoles, Sonic Unleashed is the first game playable by the entire fan base in almost a decade. So far as recent events are concerned this game is truly the one thing we all have in common. This is perhaps one reason why Sonic Unleashed has such positive perceptions, if seeing is believing this is Sonic’s most prominent role in years.

Of course, this is far from the only reason why people like Sonic Unleashed. Which is just as well, because I guarantee that even those of us that like Sonic Unleashed each have a different reason for doing so. Some simply like the daytime levels, different from that older games but brilliant to play in its own way. Others have maintained a more pragmatic approach, believing Sonic Unleashed to be better then other recent Sonic games, the quintessential and always popular: “Sonic Unleashed was a step in the right direction”. Personally, I love just about every aspect of this game, Werehog and all. Although all things may change, it is my fondest hope that Sonic Unleashed continues to be positively perceived well into the future.

[Cortez]

If anything I think Unleashed is held in high regard because we've been starved of decent 3D Sonic games for so long that as soon as something that appears to be good shows up it instantly becomes the salvation of Sonic, despite being a game that was critically panned harder than STH06.

[Dark Qiviut]

Perceptions are always changing, what we think of S3&K now will also change, this game is an ever changing idea at the mercy of future events, as are all Sonic games.

That's what I think about some Classic Sonic games today, namely S3&K. I used to love it, but for the past eighteen months, I find the game to be very uninteresting. I hope that ehen PN comes out, it captures the emotion of the classics and not the function. The game should try something NEW and not follow the Classic Sonic structure to a tee.

If anything I think Unleashed is held in high regard because we've been starved of decent 3D Sonic games for so long that as soon as something that appears to be good shows up it instantly becomes the salvation of Sonic, despite being a game that was critically panned harder than STH06.

Mostly by "critics" who never even PLAYED the game thoroughly. IGN's Goldstein, X-Play's, and Gamespot's reviewers are widely panned by the Sonic fandom and even people outside for LYING in their lazy excuses of "reviews" and not even finishing one-third of the game. When that happens, that's not reviewing. That's laziness.

[Tornado]

You use the phrase ‘trial and error’ like it is some kind of slur, that’s hardly fair; no game should be condemned simply by virtue of how it was made.

Kintor, you essentially wrote a thousand-word essay but only said one relevant thing. And you were wrong about it. Because trial-and-error gameplay is a slur the way it is pretty much always used. So it stands to reason that, when the it is used as a crutch for the entire game, the game in question probably has some fundamental problems.

And by the way, I'm fairly certain that Sonic Unleashed is not the first game playable by the entire fan base in almost a decade. That title would probably go to, you know, the actual first game playable by the entire fan base.

Well, good news, guys. Many of the past Sonic games are heavily relied on trial-and-error. More specifically, Sonic 3 & Knuckles! That game itself is DESIGNED on trial-and-error. The stage-specific platforming, all the bosses, the puzzles, and Doomsday Zone controls (particularly in damaging Eggman) are just some examples. The trial-and-error design and puzzles are some of the key secrets why S3&K was successful to start with.

You might as well be comparing an apple to baseball. S3&K required lateral thinking for the player to master it. Sonic Unleashed requires the player to take notes on enemy placement. Completely different concepts. You are thinking more along the lines of how Sonic 2 was designed, and say... this asshole:

Though I'd agree: Unleashed is exactly like that. Only for the entire game. And at a faster speed.

Mostly by "critics" who never even PLAYED the game thoroughly. IGN's Goldstein, X-Play's, and Gamespot's reviewers are widely panned by the Sonic fandom and even people outside for LYING in their lazy excuses of "reviews" and not even finishing one-third of the game. When that happens, that's not reviewing. That's laziness.

Blah blah IGN sucks blah blah. One thing I've found interesting about statements such as these is how unintentionally irrelevant they are, even assuming that such an assumption was even correct. Sonic Unleashed didn't get dramatically better towards the end of the game, even if you thought the beginning of the game was good (this applies even more so to Black Knight). It for the most part was the same game that simply got increasingly cheap (so, essentially, worse) as you got further in.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Tornado

[Sega DogTagz]

Level design was made to where that if you failed the first time, you could try again without feeling bad about it. In Unleashed, if you miss a platform or don't a complete a certain QTE, you die, and you're forced to try again

*spits out soda*

What? really? come on. I think we all have fond memories of this A-bomb Sonic Team dropped on us in the classics.

I felt bad after that happend to me for the first time. Looks like Sonic felt bad too.

Unleashed is no more plagued by insta-deaths than the classics (if you exclude water).

[Phos]

The official word from IGN is that Goldstein beat Unleashed on a debug unit before playing it a bit on his home console, presumably to make sure that the retail game was the same as the review code.

[Tornado]

What? really? come on. I think we all have fond memories of this A-bomb Sonic Team dropped on us in the classics.

I felt bad after that happend to me for the first time. Looks like Sonic felt bad too.

I believe that is Sonic 2. I also believe I conceded that Sonic 2 was absolutely full of that nonsense and that the other two are comparatively barren of such shenanigans (probably as a result of Sonic 2 being in a perpetual programming rush since day 1 of development). In the Project Needlemouse thread, where this current discussion also broke out, I also said that whoever designed Mystic Cave is a complete asshole.

In fact, I even said how cheap Sonic 2 is, and clarified, in the post immediately prior to yours.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Tornado

[Sega DogTagz]

I believe that is Sonic 2. I also believe I conceded that Sonic 2 was absolutely full of that nonsense and that the other two are comparatively barren of such shenanigans (probably as a result of Sonic 2 being in a perpetual programming rush since day 1 of development). In the Project Needlemouse thread, where this current discussion also broke out, I also said that whoever designed Mystic Cave is a complete asshole.

In fact, I even said how cheap Sonic 2 is, and clarified, in the post immediately prior to yours.

I know. I just had that somewhat funny image and wanted to lighten up the mood in here.

(For the record, Mystic Cave is one of my favorite stages in the franchise. That BGM is downright filthy:lol:)

[Tornado]

Okay. I apologize for my tone, then. After 5 pages of Kintor ignoring what I was saying, I guess I kinda snapped.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Tornado

[Sega DogTagz]

No apologies necessary T. You were in the right to call out my post if you were taking it that seriously.

[Kintor]

Kintor, you essentially wrote a thousand-word essay but only said one relevant thing. And you were wrong about it. Because trial-and-error gameplay is a slur the way it is pretty much always used. So it stands to reason that, when the it is used as a crutch for the entire game, the game in question probably has some fundamental problems.

And by the way, I'm fairly certain that Sonic Unleashed is not the first game playable by the entire fan base in almost a decade. That title would probably go to, you know, the actual first game playable by the entire fan base.

You might as well be comparing an apple to baseball. S3&K required lateral thinking for the player to master it. Sonic Unleashed requires the player to take notes on enemy placement. Completely different concepts. You are thinking more along the lines of how Sonic 2 was designed, and say... this asshole:

Though I'd agree: Unleashed is exactly like that. Only for the entire game. And at a faster speed.

Blah blah IGN sucks blah blah. One thing I've found interesting about statements such as these is how unintentionally irrelevant they are, even assuming that such an assumption was even correct. Sonic Unleashed didn't get dramatically better towards the end of the game, even if you thought the beginning of the game was good (this applies even more so to Black Knight). It for the most part was the same game that simply got increasingly cheap (so, essentially, worse) as you got further in.

Tornado, you should know better then to defend the likes of IGN. I’m sure by now that I need not repeat myself when it comes to the appalling standards of gaming reviewing today. As always remember one thing, games reviewers are not professionals; they are no more qualified to judge the quality of a game then you or I. It is not about fairly assessing a game; reviewers will often decide to bash a game before they even play it. So it was with Sonic Unleashed, mocking Sonic games has become something of a past time for these people, so that they can seem ‘in the know’ if they attack Sonic. The very idea that the quality of a game can be distilled down to a single number is in itself ludicrous. I think that gamers place far too much stock in the opinions of games reviewers.

Needless to say, IGN has certainly drawn the ire of this fan base and for good reason. There mistakes while handling Sonic Unleashed has made them infamous. The trouble started well before they even wrote a review, deciding to bash the game in each preview, if only because they just didn’t like the idea of the Werehog – headless of whether or not the concept had merit in its own right. Moreover the review itself we appalling, citing glitches which did not exists and belittling the game just because it was different from IGN’s idea of a perfect Sonic game. Let’s not forget the video review, you can see Goldstein purposely jumping off the edge; blaming the controls instead. Even since, IGN has not stooped attacking Sonic, as of last February they are even saying that Sonic started going bad after the first game. They think that Sega should never have made Sonic 2, that Tails and Knuckles were a made idea. IGN is not interested in the truth; they will say anything about anyone if they think it will get more page views.

Games reviewers like to advertise their views as fact; this couldn’t be further from the truth. As I said before, games are like an art form. A video game may be held together by mathematical formula but it is a developer’s creative vision which brings the product to life. The aim of any game is to have fun, a process which is unique for every individual. Many people may enjoy a game but not two experiences are ever the same. Furthermore, experiences do change over time, as popular perception of what makes a good game evolve. This is why Sonic Unleashed can be considered a good game, even if it is not identical to something made nearly twenty years ago. Time marches forever onward, I think that Sonic Unleashed is a good game because it made the most of current technology and new ideas. Innovation is the life blood of this industry; nobody wants to play the same game twice. Sonic Team should be commended for advancing Sonic’s existing gameplay, making a fun and different game in the process.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Kintor

[KoolKojoS]

I just recently got an Xbox360, so my friend let me borrow the game.

Compared to the Wii version, the HD version is just boring. The good parts of the game are fantastic, but they're overshadowed by the medal collecting and the werehog stages. I don't even wanna finish the game anymore because of those two things, they bore me so much. I found the Wii version more enjoyable, probably because of the flow of the game.

[Tornado]

Tornado, you should know better then to defend the likes of IGN. I’m sure by now that I need not repeat myself when it comes to the appalling standards of gaming reviewing today. As always remember one thing, games reviewers are not professionals; they are no more qualified to judge the quality of a game then you or I. It is not about fairly assessing a game; reviewers will often decide to bash a game before they even play it. So it was with Sonic Unleashed, mocking Sonic games has become something of a past time for these people, so that they can seem ‘in the know’ if they attack Sonic. The very idea that the quality of a game can be distilled down to a single number is in itself ludicrous. I think that gamers place far too much stock in the opinions of games reviewers.

Needless to say, IGN has certainly drawn the ire of this fan base and for good reason. There mistakes while handling Sonic Unleashed has made them infamous. The trouble started well before they even wrote a review, deciding to bash the game in each preview, if only because they just didn’t like the idea of the Werehog – headless of whether or not the concept had merit in its own right. Moreover the review itself we appalling, citing glitches which did not exists and belittling the game just because it was different from IGN’s idea of a perfect Sonic game. Let’s not forget the video review, you can see Goldstein purposely jumping off the edge; blaming the controls instead. Even since, IGN has not stooped attacking Sonic, as of last February they are even saying that Sonic started going bad after the first game. They think that Sega should never have made Sonic 2, that Tails and Knuckles were a made idea. IGN is not interested in the truth; they will say anything about anyone if they think it will get more page views.

What the does any of this have to do with the thread topic? I was pointing out that a specific set of criticisms leveled at the Sonic Unleashed and Black Knight reviews are unwarranted. I was not saying "IGN is awesome yo!"

Furthermore, experiences do change over time, as popular perception of what makes a good game evolve. This is why Sonic Unleashed can be considered a good game, even if it is not identical to something made nearly twenty years ago. Time marches forever onward, I think that Sonic Unleashed is a good game because it made the most of current technology and new ideas. Innovation is the life blood of this industry; nobody wants to play the same game twice. Sonic Team should be commended for advancing Sonic’s existing gameplay, making a fun and different game in the process.

This is an entertaining set of statements. You cite Sonic Unleashed being good and innovative as proof of how expectations have evolved. The problem with this is two fold.

• Outside the fanbase, the game is pretty much just loathed. So how can the game by itself be proof that people standards have evolved when the game doesn't meet them?
  
• As by your own admittance, the game is littered with a certain set of design choices that you cite as the cause of the game's innovation. Design choices that are pretty much universally viewed as bad ones. Sow how can the game be an example of innovation instead of just a game padded with bad design decisions?

[Dark Qiviut]

Outside the fanbase, the game is pretty much just loathed. So how can the game by itself be proof that people standards have evolved when the game doesn't meet them?

Uh, as far as I know, the game was not as "loathed" as you claim. Unless you're talking about those who hate the game and never played it just because "it's Sonic" or that "it doesn't follow the Classic Sonic pinball functions." Edited December 27, 2009 by Dark Qiviut