Why do some people 'round here not like Sonic Unleashed?

[Sega DogTagz]

Shouldn't you reach higher areas by going there instead of suceeding at a random button promt? Seems that way to me.

Or you can use both. QTE's don't remove the ability to run/navigate to higher levels. Plenty of the stages offer several branching routes, some QTE's, some platforming. A little diversity in the equation never hurt anybody.

[Phos]

QTE's take you out of the experince in my view. They should really only be used where there's nothing else that can accomplish what needs to be done.

[Tornado]

First and foremost, Sonic Team created the Hedgehog Engine, one of the most advanced engines in the industry. This has allowed Sonic Team the most beautiful levels ever seen in a Sonic game, besides being able to properly handle Sonic’s speed in a 3D environment. Even the little details help make this game great. The CGI intro, while a superficial, is nevertheless key to setting the tone of the game; not to mention that the CGI is of very high quality, I think that Sega could give Pixar a run for their money. These are just as few of the reasons which lead me to believe that Sonic Unleashed is a well designed.

The graphics of the game really don't mean anything in regards to game design.

The game poses many challenges to players but can ultimately be beaten; every trap and obstacle can be countered – with a little practice. The Sniper, If you won’t listen to my advice then at least get a strategy guide, it will show just how much fun Sonic Unleashed can be.

But it isn't practice to increase skill. It is practice to memorize the level layouts and the long Simon-Says style pattern that they adopt towards the end of the game. There is a marked difference between the two, and the latter is caused by poor game design. Proper difficulty challenges your skill. It doesn't (with exceptions) challenge your memory.

While I constantly am a person visiting TVTropes to waste time reading fun stuff, I will make it no secret that more than half of the stuff is in fact more than personal opinion when it comes to sugarcoating material and especially things like Fake Difficulty since anyone can go onto that page and say that "Sonic Unleashed has fake difficulty" and no one will give a damn to delete that really.

I've already offered an example that pretty much everyone who's ever played video games since 1993 knows about; and that no one who has experienced it can actually refute. And the link The Sniper gave didn't give specific examples (rather, it gave specific criteria), so I don't see your point anyways.

They're fair enough for the average joe to handle it and if you can't well then either you just stress too much at the sight of one or you just aren't good at it. Yes kids, there's nothing wrong with admitting to not be good at something.

No, there isn't. But that would be much more relevant if the difficulty in Unleashed had more to do with my skill as a player than it had to do with my ability to memorize level layouts.

By the way, I'm not sure if The Sniper is on the same page as I am, but I'm not talking about QTEs. QTEs aren't actually fake difficulty, they are just annoying for reasons Phos mentioned and because they are a copout for the developers. And for the record, I didn't actually have that much trouble beating Sonic Unleashed in the first place.

Trial and Error my ass, every move I made towards every goal of a stage I never made it due to the fact that I fucked up.

Objectively false. There are many spots in Unleashed where you have absolutely no way to prevent taking damage when you are first playing the game other than blind luck.

I cant beat Marvel VS Capcom 2 on the easiest mode forexample but I'm not afraid to admit that I suck at the game since Ive seen people blaze through it with ease.

Irrelevant. I'm good at Street Fighter II. That doesn't mean that single player Street Fighter II is fair. I'm mediocre at Street Fighter IV. That doesn't mean single player Street Fighter IV is unfair (for the most part). Which standard applies to MvC2 I dunno, not having played it in years, but there is a clear line separating challenge and cheapness.

Fun fact: Go into the old school games without knowing the levels in and out and they'd actually be alot harder to pass since you can't see what the fuck is ahead of you while blazing at sonic speed, so I dont see how that complaint has any value in Unleashed for those who love the old school games if there's "trial and error" in Unleashed.

Other than Sonic 2 (and some specific parts of Sonic 1), for the most part very little of the Mega Drive games actually were trial and error. There were very little in the way of "speed boosts right into an enemy" level design, "leaps of faith over bottomless pits" platform jumps or even any "unknowing ring lost imminent" hazard placement. Hell, even the Knuckles sections of Sonic 3, despite being considerably more difficult than those of Sonic, were for the most part completely skill-based. Which probably has at least something to do with how fast Sonic 2 was, but regardless does little for your overall point.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Tornado

[Kintor]

Other than Sonic 2 (and some specific parts of Sonic 1), for the most part very little of the Mega Drive games actually were trial and error. There were very little in the way of "speed boosts right into an enemy" level design, "leaps of faith over bottomless pits" platform jumps or even any "unknowing ring lost imminent" hazard placement. Hell, even the Knuckles sections of Sonic 3, despite being considerably more difficult than those of Sonic, were for the most part completely skill-based. Which probably has at least something to do with how fast Sonic 2 was, but regardless does little for your overall point.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trial and error gameplay. To my understanding, all games rely on this type of learning. In this respect, the Megadrive Sonic games are no different. Every single boss battle is ultimately beaten through trial and error: if you die you try again, mindful of the boss’ attack pattern and what worked well in similar encounters. I guarantee that that you would have experienced trail and error gameplay while playing Sonic 3, experience and exploration is the only way to find the special stages. Lambasting Sonic Team for using trial and error gameplay is simply wrong, this style of gaming helped define Sonic during the Megadrive era.

Trail and error is the key to beating any game, particularly platformers. This is basically another way of say that practice will help you beat Sonic Unleashed, don’t blame the developers, learn from your own mistakes. Play each level until you know which routes is the fastest and most enjoyable. Figure out when to strike when facing a difficult enemy, the same applies to boss battles. No challenge is insurmountable; the game is made to be beaten. Every trap and trick has an obvious counter, so simple that even a child can figure it out eventually; keep playing until you discover the ‘tools’ Sonic Team has left for you. Sonic Unleashed isn’t that hard, no gamer should have any trouble playing this game, least of all you.

[Phos]

There's a lot of ground between learning from mistakes (Which is what you're talking about) and rote trial and error (What Sonic Unleashed has).

In a good game, hazards are presented in such a way that a competent player will have some means to identify and avoid them prior to unfavorably encountering them. In Sonic Unleashed, there are numerous instances throughout the game of hazards that are hard to identify from far enough away to actually avoid, aren't visible until until they've already been hit or have become unavoidable, behave in a fashion that contradicts they're apparent properties, kill or damage as a result of errors in the game's programming, or simply don't appear to be hazards.

You might expect me to make some comparision to the classic games now, but that would be too easy. No I'm comparing Sonic Unleashed to Metal Slug. Metal Slug is a much harder game than Sonic Unleashed, but it is a much more enjoyable game because the challenges are more fair. All the enemies in Metal Slug don't fire until after they're on screen, are drawn to obviously be hostile, and the majority of things that are able to kill you are either flashing or made clear by some other means. Metal Slug is an arcade game, arcade games make more revenue if they are able to keep people playing but also keep them dropping quarters. It is designed to kill you often, and yet presents a much more fair challenge, it is more fair because the player is very seldom killed by a hazard that they didn't know about prior to it killing them.

[Tornado]

Quite frankly, you've said all you needed to say with this statement:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trial and error gameplay.

Because, just...wow. Really? Really?

To my understanding, all games rely on this type of learning.

Your understanding is very inaccurate.

Every single boss battle is ultimately beaten through trial and error: if you die you try again, mindful of the boss’ attack pattern and what worked well in similar encounters.

With the exception of the final bosses and a couple of the Sonic 3 puzzle bosses, every boss in the classic games was "dodge and counterattack." Those were also boss battles, a type of gameplay long since established by 1991 to require something along the lines of an initial learning curve to beat. Not regular gameplay.

I guarantee that that you would have experienced trail and error gameplay while playing Sonic 3, experience and exploration is the only way to find the special stages.

You mean the optional special stages that were in no way required to advance through the game? You mean the optional special stages that never, ever killed you if you screwed up trying to get to them?

Lambasting Sonic Team for using trial and error gameplay is simply wrong, this style of gaming helped define Sonic during the Megadrive era.

Games Radar recently did a review of Sonic 2. The cheapest and most unfair of the first three games. They gave it a 6/10 specifically because of the trial and error gameplay that wasn't present in either the Mario games of the time or the other Sonic games of the time. Try again.

Trail and error is the key to beating any game, particularly platformers.

No. Here are some platformers that only an idiot would say aren't far better than Sonic Unleashed:

• Ratchet and Clank: Jump between platforms. Shoot guns. Includes in-game tutorials for complex actions as they are required so you never die because of something you don't know how to do.
  
• Super Mario 64 (or Sunshine or Galaxy): Jump between platforms. Jump on bad guys. Includes in-game tutorials for complex actions as they are required so you never die because of something you don't know how to do.
  
• Klonoa 2: Jump between platforms. Solve complex puzzles. Never die a single time because you don't know how to do something, even the game completely forgoes tutorials of any kind, because of the very clear difficulty curve.
  
• Sonic Unleashed: Run along at 7 million miles per hour into an enemy that you could not possibly have been able to dodge unless you were lucky enough to already have avoided it entirely. Perhaps die from it.
  

This is basically another way of say that practice will help you beat Sonic Unleashed, don’t blame the developers, learn from your own mistakes.

So when I die in Sonic Unleashed for reasons completely detached from any mistakes I may or may not have made, what am I suppose to learn from?

Play each level until you know which routes is the fastest and most enjoyable.

So what you are saying here is play each level until I am able to memorize the cheap level design and avoid it from memory rather than skill. Thanks for proving my point.

Every trap and trick has an obvious counter, so simple that even a child can figure it out eventually; keep playing until you discover the ‘tools’ Sonic Team has left for you.

Enemy.hazard is off screen. I run into enemy/hazard because the camera didn't physically allow me to see it. Other than a rewind button a la Forza, Sonic Team could have provided nothing to make this preventable without actually fixing the level.

And, once again, I beat Sonic Unleashed long ago; so I'd ask you to stop talking down to me as a backwoods yokel.

Sonic Unleashed isn’t that hard, no gamer should have any trouble playing this game, least of all you.

Seriously, stop saying shit like that. Its arrogant all by itself, but it does nothing more than prove you are flat-out ignoring everything I've been saying.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Tornado

[Kintor]

No, when you are talking about a Sonic game it is best to think of other Sonic games. What SNK has done with Meal Slug is of little concern, run and gun gameplay holds no similarity to a platformer like Sonic. As I have said before difficulty is subjective, what you may think of one game won’t be similar to the experiences of another gamer. This was true for just the one game, comparing two vastly different games in this way is an exercise in futility. If you want to understand Sonic, look at what Sonic games Sega has made. Anything less is just going to confuse matters.

To this end, I think that Sonic Unleashed is a good game. I certainly hold it in very high esteem, easily the equal of Sonic Adventure and a close rival to the original games. If anything I think that Sonic Unleashed is easier then the old games. As an example, Sonic 1 for the Master System is one of the hardest Sonic games ever made; each level is requires much practice and the boss battles must be fought without a single ring. Just being able to save the game is a huge advantage for anyone who plays Sonic Unleashed. Regardless, all Sonic games rely heavily on trail and error gameplay, this is why we have extra lives in this game. If you die, try again, its how all platformers are meant to be played. I think that Sonic Unleashed’s gameplay works well, so long as you know how to play a platformer.

[Tornado]

No, when you are talking about a Sonic game it is best to think of other Sonic games. What SNK has done with Meal Slug is of little concern, run and gun gameplay holds no similarity to a platformer like Sonic.

Have you ever played Metal Slug? It is essentially Super Mario World with guns, for crying out loud.

As an example, Sonic 1 for the Master System is one of the hardest Sonic games ever made; each level is requires much practice and the boss battles must be fought without a single ring.

Sonic 1 8-bit is also a catatonically shit game. The first level has a spike pit that can kill you if you go to fast. Most people who do speed runs of the game screw up and die on it, even.

Regardless, all Sonic games rely heavily on trail and error gameplay, this is why we have extra lives in this game.

Have you even thought that it might be so if you screw up you don't have to start from scratch? Seriously, that is an absurd argument if I've ever seen one.

If you die, try again, its how all platformers are meant to be played.

Hai guyz:

I didn't lose a single life from taking damage in that game until the third-to-last level, and that was because I screwed up a treadmill jump that I saw coming from miles away. I would still say that the game was reasonably challenging, yet it was completely devoid of trial-and-error gameplay.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Tornado

[Kintor]

Sonic 1 8-bit is also a catatonically shit game. The first level has a spike pit that can kill you if you go to fast. Most people who do speed runs of the game screw up and die on it, even.

I think you need to show Sonic 1 a little more respect. Personally, I love this version of the original Sonic game and not just because it was the first Sonic game I have ever played. So what this game had spike traps? Just about all Sonic games do, if you know how to jump you can save yourself from an easily avoidable fate. Spike traps are no reason to mock what is a great platformers Make no mistake, this game was hard but that does not make it any less of a Sonic game. Like any good old-school game I was challenged but I did not want to quit, the difficulty is what kept me interested in this game. The challenge of Sonic 1 is what still keeps me coming back year after year, ever as I’ve become a more experienced gamer. The Master System games were different but still very good games; their deviation from the Megadrive versions is no reason to ignore these high quality games.

If anything, I do not see why every Sonic game has to be exactly the same. Innovation is the life-blood of this industry. Sega continues to innovate out of necessity, new ideas are what sells games, nobody wants to by the same game twice – anyone who says otherwise is lying. For what it’s worth, Sonic Unleashed did expand upon the existing Sonic formula, with new mechanics like the quickstep and boosts. These changes worked well and helped define Sonic Unleashed, a game generally renowned for its daytime levels. I still defend the Werehog as one of the best alternative concepts Sonic Team has ever produced, it is a simple and enjoyable brawler that works well in its own way. Sonic Unleashed is easy to like, provided you’re not unfairly comparing it to S3&K.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Kintor

[Djawed]

yea allthough i agreed taht sonic unleashed is bad. You coulve better left that sonic 8-bit comparison out.

Its not as good as the 16 bit one. But for me it was the first sonic game to play ever. And i loved it... when i was 4 . But if i had to critisize is its still good and doesnt have fake difficulty. Maybe just in the 1st stage

Edited December 19, 2009 by Jaouad

[Tornado]

I think you need to show Sonic 1 a little more respect. Personally, I love this version of the original Sonic game and not just because it was the first Sonic game I have ever played.

Liking a game != Good game. Sonic 2 8-Bit is almost my favorite game in the entire series. It is for the most part total garbage.

So what this game had spike traps? Just about all Sonic games do, if you know how to jump you can save yourself from an easily avoidable fate.

In the first level, there is a speed section that propels you so fast that you go beyond the camera. There is a 50/50 chance that after you do so you will land in a spike pit right before the end post, and because of how the engine was designed there is no reliable way to actually miss it. Easily avoidable?

If anything, I do not see why every Sonic game has to be exactly the same. Innovation is the life-blood of this industry. Sega continues to innovate out of necessity, new ideas are what sells games, nobody wants to by the same game twice – anyone who says otherwise is lying.

So putting together a shoddy game is innovating?

[Detective Shadzter]

I like the daytime stages in both the Xbox 360 version and the PS2 version but I agree that sometimes boosting doesn't feel like your doing much in stages. I think the drifting should have been tighter, as it is the drifting barely turns so you often fall off the edge or end up in the mud. The quick time events in the daytime stages also annoy me beyond belief and take the fun straight out of most stage's due to most stages killing you if you get it wrong/run out of time in the event. I wouldn't mind them so much if they were all like the few that drop you into an alternate route.

The Werehog I found fun in places but as most people said you can beat most enemies just by tapping repeating your stronger attack so I often found myself attacking with the various combo's for fun even though I didn't need to. The AI of the enemies really needed toning up so that you needed to pull off the various combo's. The quick time events I didn't mind in Werehog conbat as long as you had a decent time to input them which in half the cases you don't which is annoying. The most annoying thing about the quick time events in Werehog combat is that if you fail the event the enemy gets a large amount of health back, I mean WTF??

My complaint with the Wii/PS2 version is the same as most people, that there isn't enough daytime levels and the silly point and click town area's. I appreciate they couldn't get the Xbox 360/PS3 town stages onto a lower powered format but surely something could have been done if they replaced some of those Werehog stages with some decent town area's.

I also found the last boss to be better on the PS2 version compared to the Xbox 360 version. Xbox 360 version boss was plain annoying. My main complaint with the last boss fights is again that they used a stupid monster instead of Eggman again. When will Eggman ever get his rightful place as final boss back?

[Cortez]

Urghh, I 100% agree with Tornado, Unleashed was complete and utter garbage from start to finish.

The gameplay was horrible, both day and night. While it might be fun for about 3 seconds to travel at infinite miles per hour you quickly realise the boost is a hindrance rather than a skill, the level design doesn't accomodate for the fact that the boost quite litterally throws you forward as fast as it can which often lands you in a bottomless pit or straight into something that will kill you anyway. Through most of my time playing this game I would have killed for STH06's gameplay, that's how bad this game is. But even the 2D sections are horrible, often requiring you to find a way across a bottomless pit that is littered with objects trying to push you into the bottomless pit, it's just not fun, every part of this game feels like a chore.

Like Tornado said before, you can't criticise this game if you haven't played other platformers such as the 3D Mario's or Ratchet and Clank, because after playing those games and seeing how skillfully crafted they are you'll realise Unleashed is (once again) a bunch of random ideas thrown together in an attempt to make something under 10 year olds will eat up with no concern for quality in the slightest. It may look good but it's just lipstick on a fucking ugly pig.

EDIT: Ahaha, -4 rep for one post, too bad lowering my rep won't make the game any better.

[Kintor]

Liking a game != Good game. Sonic 2 8-Bit is almost my favorite game in the entire series. It is for the most part total garbage.

In the first level, there is a speed section that propels you so fast that you go beyond the camera. There is a 50/50 chance that after you do so you will land in a spike pit right before the end post, and because of how the engine was designed there is no reliable way to actually miss it. Easily avoidable?

So putting together a shoddy game is innovating?

I've already said that Sonic 1 is hard, not that there is anything wrong with that. However, the first level is fairly easy; it's the later zones that will kill you. That last pit in the first level is easily avoided, just hop on the platform that traverses this section of the level, you can't miss it. The physics work just fine; you can perform tightly timed jumps to narrow platforms without any trouble with this game, provided you have the skill. I think that you are just bad at the game; however, that is no excuse to claim that the developers didn’t do a thorough job. For a machine with half the power of the Megadrive, Sega made a game as fast and enjoyable as anything seen on the newer Sega System.

Again, I do not see why you feel the need to attack Sonic Unleashed, it is a great game. Sonic Team went to the trouble of creating an entirely new graphics engine; this had the affect of eliminating the camera glitches first seen with Sonic Adventure. Not to mention each of the incredibly detailed levels; inspired by a real world location but with a surreal twist in the vein of the old Sonic games Even the smaller things like the CGI cutscenes go a long way to making this game what it is, Sonic Unleashed is filled with all sorts of little details and tributes to the fans – Eggman has a Dreamcast! Tornado, you may dislike this game, fair enough. Yet, there is no way to honestly claim that Sonic Unleashed is anything less then a well made game. Trying to belittle the game like this, just because you’ve died a few time, is simply mean spirited.

[Cortez]

Making a fantastic graphics engine and adding tiny little details like the Dreamcast don't prevent the game from being a steaming pile of shit.

You can add as many nice little touches as you like but if the gameplay is horrible then it's all subjective really, if anything tiny details seem to be Sonic Team's way of scapegoating the fact they haven't given a shit about the gameplay.

[Carbo]

Like Tornado said before, you can't criticise this game if you haven't played other platformers such as the 3D Mario's or Ratchet and Clank, because after playing those games and seeing how skillfully crafted they are you'll realise Unleashed is (once again) a bunch of random ideas thrown together in an attempt to make something under 10 year olds will eat up with no concern for quality in the slightest. It may look good but it's just lipstick on a fucking ugly pig.

I'm supposed to compare Sonic Unleashed to the likes of Galaxy and Ratchet & Clank?

Those games are completely different, and your claim of "skillfully crafted" work comes off as a fancy naming for how you preffer the oranges over apples, especially when Ratchet 2 and 3 are essentially mission pack sequels. That's quite an elitist statement.

And fun fact: I preffer Sonic Unleashed on 360 over Super Mario Galaxy as it's an overhyped mess relying on it's charm more than actual gameplay design.

Objectively false. There are many spots in Unleashed where you have absolutely no way to prevent taking damage when you are first playing the game other than blind luck.

Basically what Sonic has pretty much had in every game since Sonic Adventure 2.

[Cortez]

I'm supposed to compare Sonic Unleashed to the likes of Galaxy and Ratchet & Clank?

Those games are completely different

All three are platformers, I don't see why I can't compare games in the same genre. Sonic doesn't have it's own 'Sonic' genre which prevents it from being compared to good games.

And your claim of "skillfully crafted" work comes off as a fancy naming for how you preffer the oranges over apples, especially when Ratchet 2 and 3 are essentially mission pack sequels. That's quite an elitist statement.

Omg how dare a sequel use the same engine and not be made totally from scratch and entirely different to it's preceder!

Fun fact: Sonic 2 and S3K all used the Sonic 1 engine and are essentially mission pack sequels, therefore terrible games in their own right!

Also, comparing Sonic to Mario and Ratchet and Clank is not comparing apples to oranges, two are quality series that manage to have exceptional gameplay and are critically acclaimed, the other is a franchise gone wrong which the fans refuse to believe therefore 'all gaming websites are bias against Sonic >=('

And fun fact: I preffer Sonic Unleashed on 360 over Super Mario Galaxy as it's an overhyped mess relying on it's charm more than actual gameplay design.

I find it amusing that the quote you just gave describes Unleashed perfectly.

[Solid SOAP]

Sonic Unleashed is easier to just pop in and play a level or two to relieve stress or to cure boredom, but Super Mario Galaxy is clearly a much more polish and fun experience than Sonic Unleashed and doesn't rely on padding to make the "story" of the game fun and lengthly.

[Carbo]

All three are platformers, I don't see why I can't compare games in the same genre. Sonic doesn't have it's own 'Sonic' genre which prevents it from being compared to good games.

They're completely different kind of platformers. Just cause they share the same genre doesn't mean they're essentially the same. That's like comparing Earthbound to Fallout 3 since both of them are RPG's.

Omg how dare a sequel use the same engine and not be made totally from scratch and entirely different to it's preceder!

Fun fact: Sonic 2 and S3K all used the Sonic 1 engine and are essentially mission pack sequels, therefore terrible games in their own right!

Where did I say mission pack sequels are bad? You're pushing words in my mouth now. Ratchet 1 might have been skillfully crafted, yes, but Ratchet 2 and 3 essentially just build upon what used to be done so same can't be said. Whether they are better games is just a completely different story, I preffer the original to the newer ones.

Also, comparing Sonic to Mario and Ratchet and Clank is not comparing apples to oranges, two are quality series that manage to have exceptional gameplay and are critically acclaimed, the other is a franchise gone wrong which the fans refuse to believe therefore 'all gaming websites are bias against Sonic >=('

So first you say it isn't comparing apples to oranges when it's clearly two completely different type of games, then you go on a talk about how two are critically acclaimed and "exceptional" gameplay with the third one being a franchise gone wrong.

If that isn't comparing apples to oranges then I don't know what it is.

And I don't refuse to believe that Sonic goes through a decline. Sonic 06 is shit, Shadow is sub-par and Heroes is average at it's best. Unleashed on 360 on the other hand however is what I like to see a step into the right direction.

The point is when you're comparing Sonic Unleashed to games like Super Mario Galaxy and Ratchet, what you're essentially saying is how the games should be done right. But when you bring games up like those as an example, you're practically talking about a completely different style of gameplay. Sonic isn't supposed to be Ratchet, he isn't supposed to be Mario either. How do you draw a parallel between those games? How would the devs do Ratchet and Mario if they'd be played in "Sonic style"?

I find it amusing that the quote you just gave describes Unleashed perfectly.

And I find it amusing that you come off as if it was a scientifically proven fact.

[PSI Wind]

Let me answer this question in one simple answer:

Its.Their.Opinion.

[Phos]

I think the question is more along the lines of "why do they have that opinion?"

[Tornado]

I am quite curious as to who is going through this thread with a fine-tooth comb and downrating anyone (-5? ) who even dares disagree with Kintor. It really is quite hilarious how petty people are being about this.

That last pit in the first level is easily avoided, just hop on the platform that traverses this section of the level, you can't miss it.

Oh, well I'll be sure to look for it when I can't fucking see anything because the camera doesn't scroll fast enough.

I think that you are just bad at the game;

You can think whatever the hell you want.

I'm supposed to compare Sonic Unleashed to the likes of Galaxy and Ratchet & Clank?

Those games are completely different, and your claim of "skillfully crafted" work comes off as a fancy naming for how you preffer the oranges over apples,

They're completely different kind of platformers. Just cause they share the same genre doesn't mean they're essentially the same. That's like comparing Earthbound to Fallout 3 since both of them are RPG's.

When I brought it up, I was referring directly as to how each game challenges the player. Galaxy and Ratchet and Clank throw difficulty at the players in later levels that are almost entirely skill based. In later levels, Sonic Unleashed relies almost exclusively on cheap hits/deaths and QTEs to raise difficulty. Whether or not the two games are of the same style of platformer really doesn't matter for the statement I made that he was relating to.

Where did I say mission pack sequels are bad? You're pushing words in my mouth now.

Based on your phrasing and how irrelevant the statement was to the topic at hand, it seems very much like the only reason you brought it up was as a dig or something.

The point is when you're comparing Sonic Unleashed to games like Super Mario Galaxy and Ratchet, what you're essentially saying is how the games should be done right. But when you bring games up like those as an example, you're practically talking about a completely different style of gameplay.

No he isn't. He's talking about how the difficulty curve should be done in Unleashed like in those two games. He wasn't saying that those games are better because the style of gameplay is better.

Sonic isn't supposed to be Ratchet, he isn't supposed to be Mario either. How do you draw a parallel between those games? How would the devs do Ratchet and Mario if they'd be played in "Sonic style"?

I'd imagine they would come up with some kind of warning system that would allow you to dodge enemies that you otherwise wouldn't be able to see coming. Not like Sonic Team, who just let you run right into the enemy and then call it "challenge."

Basically what Sonic has pretty much had in every game since Sonic Adventure 2.

And? It was a crap way to handle things back then as well.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Tornado

[Phos]

I am quite curious as to who is going through this thread with a fine-tooth comb and downrating anyone (-5? ) who even dares disagree with Kintor.

Yeah, there's some pretty blatant missuse of the rep system ITT.

[nUcLeArEnVoY]

My main beef with Sonic Unleashed is that the gameplay is obnoxiously fast in the daytime stages and... obnoxiouslyyyy... obnoxious in the night time ones. (Lol.)

Extreme speed used to be rewarded to the player for taking the right path or dialing in the right techniques or nailing the right platforms. Now they just throw it at you like it's nothing, proving too much of a good thing can turn out bad. What gives you more satisfaction: those fast downhill slopes and runways in Hydro City where you run on water or constantly careening your way through an overly convoluted city and running into shit half the time if you don't memorize the level structure?

[Kintor]

When I brought it up, I was referring directly as to how each game challenges the player. Galaxy and Ratchet and Clank throw difficulty at the players in later levels that are almost entirely skill based. In later levels, Sonic Unleashed relies almost exclusively on cheap hits/deaths and QTEs to raise difficulty. Whether or not the two games are of the same style of platformer really doesn't matter for the statement I made that he was relating to.

No offense, but you just can’t make claims like that – not anymore. This whole discussion has been to contest that very idea that any mechanic used in Sonic Unleashed is ‘cheap’. As a game Sonic Unleashed is easy enough to master, easier then many other Sonic games and certainly easy enough for a child to master. Every trick this game throws at you has an obvious counter; in time experience will allow you to overcome every obstacle. Also, leave QTE alone, there is nothing wrong with this feature, it is merely one way of many for deciding which route to take. Most of the time failure isn’t even fatal in this game, for that eventuality we have 1ups anyway. This line of thought really shouldn’t have been the big deal it has become.