Do you like the concept of the Restoration?

[Slashy]

I think it could work if it was just some element in the world like G.U.N. but making it a fixture does not fit the storytelling or the cast in a canon built like the games.

Sonic himself is someone who lives in the moment and never wants to sweat the details, which is practically what this franchise is based upon. 

And the franchise has been built on a bunch of adventures set with a simple status quo which is totally fine, but it seems like the Restoration exists to question/deconstruct it but due to mandates cannot actually do anything. The Restoration could be used on adventures if we actually saw them restore anything, instead we have been focused on their base of operations.

It feels like an attempt to recreate the military drama aspects that were seen back in Archie which worked for the universe of Archie but not the games. It also feels like a writing crutch to give the continuity of the comics some form of stakes and world building (though if the writers wanted they could just build new locations for any story they want).

It seems really incompatible with the core cast, and the comic seems to exemplify this by now having the comic split between random events with the game cast and an ongoing storyline with the Restoration.

This is a disjointed rant but I wanted to start a discussion on what I feel is the biggest problem in the comic.

[Leebo4]

4 minutes ago, Slashy said:

I think it could work if it was just some element in the world like G.U.N. but making it a fixture does not fit the storytelling or the cast in a canon built like the games.

Sonic himself is someone who lives in the moment and never wants to sweat the details, which is practically what this franchise is based upon. 

And the franchise has been built on a bunch of adventures set with a simple status quo which is totally fine, but it seems like the Restoration exists to question/deconstruct it but due to mandates cannot actually do anything. The Restoration could be used on adventures if we actually saw them restore anything, instead we have been focused on their base of operations.

It feels like an attempt to recreate the military drama aspects that were seen back in Archie which worked for the universe of Archie but not the games. It also feels like a writing crutch to give the continuity of the comics some form of stakes and world building (though if the writers wanted they could just build new locations for any story they want).

It seems really incompatible with the core cast, and the comic seems to exemplify this by now having the comic split between random events with the game cast and an ongoing storyline with the Restoration.

This is a disjointed rant but I wanted to start a discussion on what I feel is the biggest problem in the comic.

Well realistically for the decision of setting it after sonic forces where eggman pretty much conquered the world; some force would be needed to help fix things and bringing in volunteers to help the small number of heroes against eggman would be a good idea and it’s  not like sonic is a full fledged member

[Lorekitten]

Honestly, I'm kind of neutral about it. It exists, and I have no issues on it existing, but from what I've read of it, it's clear that it will never replace SatAM/Archie's Freedom Fighters, and that... may not be a bad thing? That era of Sonic is over, and perhaps it's time the franchise just moved on from the concept and worked with developing what it has now rather than trying to hearken back to what much of us older fans consider the glory days.

(I'm one of the 'older fans.' That's an existential crisis right there.)

[Slashy]

12 minutes ago, Leebo4 said:

Well realistically for the decision of setting it after sonic forces where eggman pretty much conquered the world; some force would be needed to help fix things and bringing in volunteers to help the small number of heroes against eggman would be a good idea and it’s  not like sonic is a full fledged member

Yes but we are out of the Forces era. This feels like an attempt to maintain the spirit of the Resistance.

[Maple Syrup]

It does give me Forces vibes! It is long after the Metal Virus is gone! I thought that after that saga, the restoration will just restore and shut down and will it will be just back to Sonic and his squad besting Baldy McNosehair but apparently, we still got Amy and Jewel and most of the other IDW exclusive characters running the restoration. I like the idea with the organizations to help the world, but I like it with just a big, down to heart team who save the world, have fun, get inspired, and learn from their teammates. I feel that it will make the comics even more enjoyable!

[castell-neath]

Its ok i guess. I get that its a name to create a stable of core "good guys" but....I have seen no missions involving restoring anything. Maybe juat rename it by this point

[Diogenes]

I don't. It's not something that I ever would've envisioned in the series. Sure, realistically there'd need to be some organized systems to deal with the fallout of some of Eggman's plans and any other world-endangering shit, but the games have never dealt in that kind of realism; things tend to be back to the status quo by the end of the game and any lingering destruction is just handwaved and forgotten by the next game. Even if something did come up I wouldn't expect it to get this much focus or be tied so closely to the main characters; if they just had the occasional arc about some background characters, a little worldbuilding to explain why we don't have to think too hard about the consequences of Eggman bombing a city or something I wouldn't mind it. But having like half the comic focused on this peacekeeping organization worrying about getting supplies to the needy in the forever-war against Eggman...it's just so wildly different from the kind of breezy adventuring that I want out of Sonic stuff.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's basically the Freedom Fighters under a new name and different members.

Like what is really unique about it that wasn't done in the past? It's not really any different to what came before. I can't think of a single thing about the Restoration that couldn't have been done with it's past counterparts.

Edited December 15, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[Slashy]

11 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

It's basically the Freedom Fighters under a new name and different members.

Like what is really unique about it that wasn't done in the past? It's not really any different to what came before. I can't think of a single thing about the Restoration that couldn't have been done with it's past counterparts.

I respect the Freedom Fighters because they were created to free a world from a version of Dr. Robotnik that had conquered it, not someone who continuously tries and fails to do it often with humourous results.

The comics are built to be like the games and that is why I find the inclusion of something like the Freedom Fighters so egregious.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

14 minutes ago, Slashy said:

I respect the Freedom Fighters because they were created to free a world from a version of Dr. Robotnik that had conquered it, not someone who continuously tries and fails to do it often with humourous results.

The comics are built to be like the games and that is why I find the inclusion of something like the Freedom Fighters so egregious.

Whether it's the "Freedom Fighters" or the "Resistance/Restoration", the purpose of both groups is to combat the forces of Dr. Eggman whenever he strikes terror around the world. At the end of the day, they're just titles, but the way they function is practically the same as what the four teams in Sonic Heroes were doing trying to stop Eggman from whatever plot he had going on.

Let's take the title away and leave them nameless, making them just a group of characters fighting Eggman--what exactly would be any different with the premise as we know it, whether in the games or the comics? They'd still be a group of characters organized for fighting Eggman. If anything, it would be "Sonic Heroes, Expanded Edition".

The name is irrelevant, it's the function or purpose that carries weight.

Doesn't help that Sonic Team is terrible with worldbuilding given that they'll throw away any previous concepts and ideas after using them rather than building upon them. Doubly so when they have a team that would love to build their world for them and have previously done so before IDW.

Edited December 15, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[Slashy]

29 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Whether it's the "Freedom Fighters" or the "Resistance/Restoration", the purpose of both groups is to combat the forces of Dr. Eggman whenever he strikes terror around the world. At the end of the day, they're just titles, but the way they function is practically the same as what the four teams in Sonic Heroes were doing trying to stop Eggman from whatever plot he had going on.

Let's take the title away and leave them nameless, making them just a group of characters fighting Eggman--what exactly would be any different with the premise as we know it, whether in the games or the comics? They'd still be a group of characters organized for fighting Eggman. If anything, it would be "Sonic Heroes, Expanded Edition".

The name is irrelevant, it's the function or purpose that carries weight.

Doesn't help that Sonic Team is terrible with worldbuilding given that they'll throw away any previous concepts and ideas after using them rather than building upon them. Doubly so when they have a team that would love to build their world for them and have previously done so before IDW.

Sonic and friends are not a formal organization with the goal of dealing with Eggman. They are a group of friends who deal with Eggman almost as a past time and perhaps somewhat of a natural sense of justice.

It is the formal structure that the freedom fighters or restoration operates under that drastically changes things.

I do not believe the team loves world building. There are multiple times on the podcast where Flynn has shown a lack of interest in world building unless it is in service to some grand narrative.

 

Also if the team wanted more world building they could do it.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Slashy

[Lorekitten]

Personally? I wouldn't mind if the Restoration as a concept was never used again. Like I've said, that era of Sonic is over, and while I don't actively dislike the Restoration in theory, I don't really feel like it's necessary to cling to what feels to me like Sonic's glory days when the franchise is clearly ready to move on.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

21 minutes ago, Slashy said:

Sonic and friends are not a formal organization with the goal of dealing with Eggman. They are a group of friends who deal with Eggman almost as a past time and perhaps somewhat of a natural sense of justice.

It is the formal structure that the freedom fighters or restoration operates under that drastically changes things.

I'm not talking about formal organizations. I'm talking about the sheer function as a group, how they operate--i.e. going out to combat Eggman whenever he strikes terror around the world.

You do not need a formal organization to operate as a group to deal with a threat, but being a formal organization only establishes a banner for people to rally behind and allows for more resources to accomplish the same function as you would've already done.

Team Dark, Team Sonic, and Team Rose are not formal organizations, but they still operate no different to the Freedom Fighters or the Resistance/Restoration in that they go out to combat Eggman whenever he strikes terror around the world. Having a formal organization doesn't change what they were already doing, it just expands upon it by adding more members under a banner. They'd still do the same thing whether you have or not. So no, they don't really change anything other than increasing the number of people and resource they have to do what they were already doing before.

Like, if you were a rocket scientist working on rockets as a past time and a hobby, how in the world does it drastically change things from you being a rocket scientist working on rockets under a formal organization like NASA other than the increase in resources and the fact that you're getting paid for it?

Quote

I do not believe the team loves world building. There are multiple times on the podcast where Flynn has shown a lack of interest in world building unless it is in service to some grand narrative.

Also if the team wanted more world building they could do it.

Sounds more like he's burned out from it then. Mind you, I haven't listened to a lot of Flynn's podcasts, so someone is free to inform me otherwise, but I've heard multiple times that there have been roadblocks to their attempts at it.

Edited December 15, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[Slashy]

20 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I'm not talking about formal organizations. I'm talking about the sheer function as a group, how they operate--i.e. going out to combat Eggman whenever he strikes terror around the world.

You do not need a formal organization to operate as a group to deal with a threat, but being a formal organization only establishes a banner for people to rally behind and allows for more resources to accomplish the same function as you would've already done.

Team Dark, Team Sonic, and Team Rose are not formal organizations, but they still operate no different to the Freedom Fighters or the Resistance/Restoration in that they go out to combat Eggman whenever he strikes terror around the world. Having a formal organization doesn't change what they were already doing, it just expands upon it by adding more members under a banner. They'd still do the same thing whether you have or not. So no, they don't really change anything other than increasing the number of people and resource they have to do what they were already doing before.

Like, if you were a rocket scientist working on rockets as a past time and a hobby, how in the world does it drastically change things from you being a rocket scientist working on rockets under a formal organization like NASA other than the increase in resources and the fact that you're getting paid for it?

Sounds more like he's burned out from it then. Mind you, I haven't listened to a lot of Flynn's podcasts, so someone is free to inform me otherwise, but I've heard multiple times that there have been roadblocks to their attempts at it.

It absolutely does, as Sonic and friends are not banded together over the goal of defeating evil they are just friends who just occasionally do this because they agree to save the day when necessary.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Slashy

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

16 minutes ago, Slashy said:

It absolutely does, as Sonic and friends are not banded together over the goal of defeating evil they are just friends who just occasionally do this because they agree to save the day when necessary.

What difference does it make if they still do the exact same thing in the end? Regardless of whether they're a formal organization or not?

Again, if you were a rocket scientist working on rockets as a past time and a hobby, how in the world does it drastically change things from you being a rocket scientist working on rockets under a formal organization like NASA other than the increase in resources and the fact that you're getting paid for it?

Seriously, answer that question. Because at the end of the day, they don't have to be banded together to do the same thing they would've done as a organization. It's comparing red apples to green apples--they're both still apples.

Edited December 15, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[Slashy]

11 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

What difference does it make if they still do the exact same thing in the end? Regardless of whether they're a formal organization or not?

Again, if you were a rocket scientist working on rockets as a past time and a hobby, how in the world does it drastically change things from you being a rocket scientist working on rockets under a formal organization like NASA other than the increase in resources and the fact that you're getting paid for it?

Seriously, answer that question. Because at the end of the day, they don't have to be banded together to do the same thing they would've done as a organization. It's comparing red apples to green apples--they're both still apples.

It matters greatly in how you tell the stories and how you define the characters.

You might as well ask what is the difference between various superheroes because they all fight villains and win.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Slashy

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

20 minutes ago, Slashy said:

It matters greatly in how you tell the stories and how you define the characters.

You might as well ask what is the difference between various superheroes because they all fight villains and win.

How? What stories and what definitions? If I took the game Sonic Heroes and banded the characters under an official organization called "Sonic Heroes", how would that affect the story or define the characters if I did nothing else but give them a formal organization to work together? Would that story really be any different otherwise?

It doesn't stop them from being individuals different from each other. It doesn't define the characters anymore than what they would've been without it. It doesn't stop them from operating how they already would have operated, it doesn't change who they are, and they'd still band together and fight evil regardless of whether they're a formal organization or just a group of friends.

The same goes for the various superheroes. Just because they band under an organization doesn't redefine how those superheroes operate anymore than how they would have been solo. If anything it only helps them more because they have more allies to back them up, which would've been the case had they not had it anyway.

It goes back to that same analogy--if you were a rocket scientist working on rockets as a past time and a hobby, how in the world does it drastically change things from you being a rocket scientist working on rockets under a formal organization like NASA other than the increase in resources and the fact that you're getting paid for it?

Edited December 15, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[Diogenes]

If it makes no difference then why does it exist.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If it makes no difference then why does it exist.

The only answer I can give is more resources and more assistance. Why wouldn't you want additional help to a problem?

[Slashy]

17 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

How? What stories and what definitions? If I took the game Sonic Heroes and banded the characters under an official organization called "Sonic Heroes", how would that affect the story or define the characters if I did nothing else but give them a formal organization to work together? Would that story really be any different otherwise?

It would completely change the story because every team has their own reasons for going after Doctor Eggman.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 minutes ago, Slashy said:

It would completely change the story because every team has their own reasons for going after Doctor Eggman.

And they somehow can't still have their own reasons for going after Eggman while working together as a formal organization? How?

They're together as an organization--that doesn't mean they can't be individuals. They could join together as an organization because they have their own reasons for going after Eggman--people call that a "Common Goal" which is why they form organizations or teams in the first place.

Edited December 15, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[Slashy]

7 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And they somehow can't still have their own reasons going after Eggman while working together as a formal organization? How?

It goes back to that same analogy--if you were a rocket scientist working on rockets as a past time and a hobby, how in the world does it drastically change things from you being a rocket scientist working on rockets under a formal organization like NASA other than the increase in resources and the fact that you're getting paid for it?

They can but you are also making a major story change, you also need to change the reasons for the team fights.

In regards to your NASA analogy:

Working as an independent researcher is different than working under a corporation because you put more passion into your own independent study. people who make rockets aren't going to go to work at NASA where they will more than likely be delegated to do different things. Even if they are allowed to make rockets they may have to make rockets the way NASA wants and not how they want.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Slashy

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

27 minutes ago, Slashy said:

They can but you are also making a major story change, you also need to change the reasons for the team fights.

Or you could not, and instead have them join together after fighting each other for whatever their reasons were. Again, I'm not changing much other than putting them as formal organization. They'd still fight each other before realizing they could work together instead, which would be a more sensible change for a game themed around the "superpower of teamwork."

27 minutes ago, Slashy said:

In regards to your NASA analogy:

Working as an independent researcher is different than working under a corporation because you put more passion into your own independent study. people who make rockets aren't going to go to work at NASA where they will more than likely be delegated to do different things. Even if they are allowed to make rockets they may have to make rockets the way NASA wants and not how they want.

Except the reason they hired them is because their passion and skill aligned with their goals to begin with--i.e. the Common Goal. The way NASA wants rockets made wouldn't be any different from how that independent scientist would've made them because their way of making rockets is why they hired them in the first place. It wouldn't make any sense for them to hire you to make rockets they way they want if they didn't have that common goal, because that goes against the reason they hired you to begin with.

Like, make this make sense:

NASA: We love the way you design rockets. We want to hire you for that skill.

Scientist: Okay. Here's how I make them.

NASA: We don't want you to make them like that.

Scientist: Then why did you hire me?

You could apply that logic much the same way here for the organization like the Restoration used to defend against Eggman. They have the same common goal, and whether you're a part of it or not, they can still be of assistance. But it doesn't change the goal whether they're there or not.

Edited December 15, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[Slashy]

4 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Or you could not, and instead have them join together after after fighting each other. Again, I'm not changing anything other than putting them as formal organization. They'd still fight each other before realizing they could work together instead.

Except the reason they hired you is because your passion and skill aligned with their goals to begin with--i.e. the Common Goal. The way NASA wants rockets made wouldn't be any different from how you would've made it because your way of making rockets is why they hired you in the first place. It wouldn't make any sense for them to hire you to make rockets they way they want if they didn't have that common goal, because that goes against the reason they hired you to begin with.

Do I need to explain how making major changes to the Sonic Heroes story means a formal organization functions differently than a group of friends?

Secondly Someone can hire you for your expertise and still require you to follow rules and guidelines.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Slashy

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

13 minutes ago, Slashy said:

Do I need to explain how making major changes to the Sonic Heroes story means a formal organization functions differently than a group of friends?

I've been asking you how multiple times, so go right on ahead. Let's hear it.

How does operating in a formal organization function differently than a group of friends if they still do the exact same thing in the end?

13 minutes ago, Slashy said:

Secondly Someone can hire you for your expertise and still require you to follow rules and guidelines.

And if you never broke any of their rules or guidelines before getting hired, how would it be any different afterwards?

People do have things called "Ethics" which can operate the same way.

Edited December 15, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow