Sonic devs want to know what Zelda Tears of the Kingdom and Armored Core 6 have that Frontiers doesn't

[sonicclaasic]

Quote

The creator of Sonic the Hedgehog is questioning what games like The Legend of Zelda or Armored Core 6 have over Sonic Frontiers in a recent interview. 

In an interview with Famitsu (translated by Automaton), Sega game director Morio Kishimoto and producer Sachiko Kawamura discussed Sonic Frontiers' success and questioned what it is lacking when compared to other popular games. It's been a year since Sega published Sonic Frontiers, and although not everyone was blown away by the title - take our Sonic Frontiers review as an example - it's still managed to sell 3.5 million copies worldwide in that time. 

Reflecting on this impressive achievement, Kawamura said: "Well, to be honest, I want to go much much further. I think we can go further," before revealing that Sonic the Hedgehog titles tend to sell for a long time after their release, and so 3.5 million copies actually isn't that big of a number in terms of Sonic games. 

Interestingly, the pair also revealed that Sonic Frontiers sold better in the West than it did domestically, which led Kishimoto to question what it is that stops people from picking it up: "What is it lacking? What failed to resonate with them?" The director then goes on to say: "What did we miss when thinking of ways to appeal to players? If there's something that The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom or Armored Core 6 have that Sonic Frontiers doesn't have, we want to know!"

 

Sources: Games Radar 

That's a Interesting Interview questioning about Zelda or Armoured Core 6 have over Sonic Frontiers In that Interview. What does everyone else think of the Interview?

[GX -The Spindash-]

1 minute ago, sonicclaasic said:

If there's something that The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom or Armored Core 6 have that Sonic Frontiers doesn't have, we want to know!

Oh, Kishimoto, honey, there aren't enough hours in the day to get through the entire list.

[azoo]

Their own identity.

[Cosmos Rogue]

I'm sitting here trying to formulate a post here that doesn't mercilessly dunk on Kishimoto, because man, he sure set himself up for one here.

[castell-neath]

I really dont know how to answer that, because, fair play he really  tried and got some things right, but there is so much more that could be improved (and... I still want a snow level! Lol!!) Also, Zelda has a better "brand" resonance than Sonic does in Japan, mainly because of its historic significance in the early gaming years and also, they protected the asset / brand better than Sega did with Sonic in the mid 00s.

Case in Point: a crap Beatles album will still out sell a good u2 album because its the Beatles!

Edited November 9, 2023 by castell-neath

[Phoenix]

People are going to make fun of him, but fair question. They're really really trying. This isn't a snarky question, they legitimately want their community to tell them what needs to be improved on to reach that level. I think that's admirable. In fact, if their goal *is* to catch up to Mario, it's necessary.

[SupahBerry]

N/A

Edited November 9, 2023 by Wonder Berry
Got the question backwards

[Rusty Spy]

I think there's actually some important context being left out by the headline here, namely the quote here;

1 hour ago, sonicclaasic said:

Interestingly, the pair also revealed that Sonic Frontiers sold better in the West than it did domestically, which led Kishimoto to question what it is that stops people from picking it up

which sounds like Kishimoto was questioning what Frontiers was lacking to make it appeal to players in Japan specifically, which in and of itself is a question of why Sonic as a franchise never resonated as much in Japan compared to the rest of the world.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Rusty Spy

[azoo]

21 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

People are going to make fun of him, but fair question. They're really really trying. This isn't a snarky question, they legitimately want their community to tell them what needs to be improved on to reach that level. I think that's admirable. In fact, if their goal *is* to catch up to Mario, it's necessary.

I don’t know if it is a fair question. The answer seems simple: make the type of game that only Sonic can do. Sonic’s identity is so unique and special and they have the keys in their hand to hone into that and it will sell and get acclaim, guaranteed. Dream Team is that and the buzz around it has been purely positive, barring the issues people have with Apple Arcade. Mania was that and received universal praise. Even with the mild division in the fanbase, Superstars is overall warmly received by the general public. Some of these games may play it a bit too safe, sure, but none of those games are afraid of being Sonic. That’s important.

Sonic Team staff thinking they need traits or logistics from other popular franchises to get there proves they’re missing the point on a fundamental level. Even if they don’t literally make a game about not-ultrahanding together a giant Metal Sonic mech to fight Titans with, the fact that they’re worried about this at all doesn’t paint a very confident image that they know what to do.

Edited November 9, 2023 by azoo

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, castell-neath said:

I really dont know how to answer that, because, fair play he really  tried and got some things right, but there is so much more that could be improved (and... I still want a snow level! Lol!!) Also, Zelda has a better "brand" resonance than Sonic does in Japan, mainly because of its historic significance in the early gaming years and also, they protected the asset / brand better than Sega did with Sonic in the mid 00s.

Zelda's brand power in Japan was actually comparable to Sonic's for most of the series's history. Breath of the Wild turned the whole narrative around with one release which might have been why Frontiers was so inspired by it.

 

[Phoenix]

47 minutes ago, azoo said:

I don’t know if it is a fair question. The answer seems simple: make the type of game that only Sonic can do. Sonic’s identity is so unique and special and they have the keys in their hand to hone into that and it will sell and get acclaim, guaranteed. Dream Team is that and the buzz around it has been purely positive, barring the issues people have with Apple Arcade. Mania was that and received universal praise. Even with the mild division in the fanbase, Superstars is overall warmly received by the general public. Some of these games may play it a bit too safe, sure, but none of those games are afraid of being Sonic. That’s important.

Sonic Team staff thinking they need traits or logistics from other popular franchises to get there proves they’re missing the point on a fundamental level. Even if they don’t literally make a game about not-ultrahanding together a giant Metal Sonic mech to fight Titans with, the fact that they’re worried about this at all doesn’t paint a very confident image that they know what to do.

I think that's the thing, they *don't* know what to do. They know some things work and some things don't, and are trying to get better determining which is which. That's my read, anyway.

[azoo]

I guess not. They really seem to care about winning brownie points in Japan way more than having a good critical reception / international success. 
 

Thing is that I don’t think this problem is fixable for them. Sometimes things just don’t work for certain markets. Trying to force it is going to lead them down the same identity hole the mid-00s got them in. And much like how people view the Advance/Rush games, the side games are gonna be the bright spots people will remember more fondly after it’s over.

Edited November 9, 2023 by azoo

[Soniman]

This isn’t a real question, this is clearly someone with a humiliation fetish and I refuse to take part in that kind of perversion 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Soniman

[Cosmos Rogue]

56 minutes ago, Rusty Spy said:

which sounds like Kishimoto was questioning what Frontiers was lacking to make it appeal to players in Japan specifically

This is an interesting tidbit considering that Frontiers was very obviously trying to appeal to the Japanese market, and IIRC before release Sonic Team said as much.

Anyway, to give Kishimoto an answer as to why Zelda and any number of other popular IPs keep running laps around the Sonic series, the plain, blunt, honest truth is that Sonic games are typically poorly made. I spend too much time thinking about how to "fix" this series, probably an unhealthy amount of time considering I have no power to do so, and the "solution" I always come up with is just "make better games". There simply hasn't been a single can't miss title in the series in decades. The closest the series has come to a game too good to miss out on is a pseudo-indie retro throwback! And as much as I loathe many of the creative decisions and general direction Sonic Team have taken Sonic in the past two decades, I can't actually single out ideas like giving Shadow guns or turning Sonic into a werehog as the reason why the series remains stuck in neutral, since so many of the more conventional Sonic games also leave a lot to be desired.

So, if by some chance you're reading this Kishimoto, make sure your next game is better, I guess. Please.

[azoo]

I’d say that’s it, but it’s not like any of the really good Sonic games sold well in Japan either. Nor that the Zeldas before BoTW were bad. Japan’s market just seems kinda fickle compared to ours, on these series at least.

[Strickerx5]

An actual budget and a clear vision to accomplish with the resources and personnel to do it, as a starting point.

But meh, as easy of a target this is to meme, it is something they absolutely should be thinking about. What makes these games connect with so many people versus yours. We can laugh at how obvious the answer should be but it’s still an obvious thing to be learning.

Though what should be kept in mind is simply how different the Japanese market often is compared to most others. The things the west connects with in these games can sometimes be a bit different and vary in importance to what they think. Need that understanding and balance there.

Also appreciate that they’re not just looking to Mario as something to learn from. Maybe take a peak over at what Insomniac does; specifically with Rift Apart… please.

[Rabbitearsblog]

Well, Zelda knows what it wants to be, while the Sonic games are in a bit of an identity crisis.  For many years, some of the games in this franchise were basically trying to be like other video games like Sonic Lost World was trying to be like Super Mario Galaxy and the thing is, those games tended to get mixed to negative reactions from the fans.  I think a better question to ask would be "why do people love Sonic the Hedgehog and what gameplay style do people like the best about this franchise?" That would help better establish making Sonic more unique from the other games and it would allow the devs to focus on the areas of the gameplay that needed to be improved upon.

Well, the good thing about this interview is that Kishimoto seems to want to get the Sonic brand on the top and is legitimately trying to figure out how to get this brand back on top.  At least he's trying to communicate a bit more with the fans to understand how to make this brand better.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Rabbitearsblog

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

*Armored Core 6 vs Sonic Frontiers*

I love AC6 so much that I actually played it a helluva lot more than I did Tear of the Kingdom, which remains unfinished to this day. But I'm also a Sonic fan first, having comsumed more media from it than AC.

Having played Sonic Frontiers, there are so many things that I felt that Sonic Frontiers could learn from the Armored Core series despite their differences. I never knew how to bring this up however, so needless to say that when this topic came up, I was floored. Now I can share what AC6 has that Sonic Frontiers.

I wish I could show video clips of some of my plays, but I never really used the Camera feature. Oh well. Maybe later.

Let's start with the beginning.

Consistency--ARMORED CORE 6 doesn't change it's genre at ANY point in its playthrough

This is a historical problem with Sonic games. At first people thought it was the characters that were the problem, but it took people well over a decade to realize that had nothing to do with it with Sonic having been the only playable character in main series games until very recently.

When you first boot up AC6, you start as a mech, and you end as a mech. Playing as a AC is akin to playing as Super Sonic against the Titans from start to finish...or rather, a Super Sonic with lead shoes, but can still take down Titans. All you do in AC6 is fly, shoot, maybe slash things with a laser blade, and blow things up...or if you're a risky melee player like me, you get up close and personal with a Laser Lance before Pile Bunkering the motherfucker to death. (and there's an enemy in-game that can Pile Bunker you, and that shit HURTS)

Nothing in AC6 changes the moment you start the tutorial that teaches you the basics. And the game will ensure you to be at least decent enough to know them, because the tutorial boss, the Heavy Attack Helicopter, aka "The Filterchopter" or Filter, will kill you otherwise. And again, that's the tutorial! Also, the mechanics are universal--things that affect the enemy can also affect you. In a sense, it's kinda like playing Pokemon if you didn't have to wait your turn, and situated in the middle of an planetwide war.

Sonic games, meanwhile, seem to think they need to put it mini-games of a sort to be fun. Frontiers is loaded with them, the mini-games to unlock more of the map, the fucking Pinball stage, and the Ikaruga-esque shoot 'em up parts that we all know and love.

In past cases, there are Sonic games changing from a platformer to a beat 'em up like in Unleashed, or to play hide and seek with Emerald Pieces like in the Adventures (which aren't that bad compared to later examples of other gameplay styles), or in worst cases like Sonic 06 which--while not exactly full genre roullete--had the audacity to change your character mid-level without preparing for it. AC6 only has one case where it forces a complete change of Mech, but even then, you're still playing a mech like you were in the beginning.

That is one thing AC6 has that Sonic Frontiers lacks. However, despite that, Armored Core recognizes that some players like to play a certain way. This ironically isn't different from what Sonic fans are asking. Which brings us to...

Customization--ARMORED CORE 6 gives you freedom of playstyle without changing the genre

Now, for this segment, I'd like to give the biggest middle finger to this idea of "needing to get Sonic's gameplay right" as it's nothing more than an excuse to move the goalpost towards having multiple playable characters.

AC6 gives you more variety that you wish Sonic could have by letting players choose their mech build and their weapons.

• You want to play as a beefy, heavy tank that can carry the biggest, meanest weapons in your arsenal? Put on tank treads and go at it! You'll be a slow mech, but you can still fly and deal damage to enemies.
• You want to build a basic build just to get you through the game? Nothing special, but go ahead.
• Do you like cruising in the air for long periods of time? Put on the quad-walker legs and rain death from above!
• Or do you like mobility, blitzing at the speed of sound, faster than your enemies can react? You can build lightweight reverse joints and spring into action.

And that's just your mech. Your weapons are a different matter:

• If you're like me, who likes close-range melee fights, there's Pulse Blades, Pile Bunker, Laser Lance, Chainsaws and plenty of weapons for getting up close and personal to deal the most damage possible.
• Maybe you just like shooting the enemy from a far? Well, this is a mech game, and it has plenty of rifles, lasers, missiles, etc.
• Or maybe your just a loon who wants to take the biggest joke of a weapon to beat the enemy up with. There's the stun baton, missile jammer, plasma thrower, flamethrower, and plenty of other joke weapons in the game that can still deal damage if used well.
• Or perhaps you're just thinking "Fuck it, I'll use my fists." AC6 can let you throw all your weapons away just to punch enemies instead. WARNING: THIS REQUIRES BALLS!

(This exact same level killed me MULTIPLE times WITH weapons before I finally reached the boss at the end)

However, despite all this customization, some builds are better against certain enemies than others. That's not stopping you from using ill-suited weapons, but more so an example of this game's versatility. Bosses don't care what weapons or build you use, they just care about killing you regardless. That's the same attitude you should have toward bosses, which the game expects. Basically, attack and kill enemies before they attack and kill you.

Some might have a gimmick, say an energy shield that makes them impervious to damage until you dispell it, but even those gimmicks work the same way with the rest of the game. Now, how you build you're mech may come with ups and downs, like being heavy and durable, but slow, or fast and nimble, but weak in health (or AP as the gamer calls it). But the game doesn't discourage that.

Sonic games tend to not understand how to make customization or different playstyles work with some of their games, as stated before. They have to change the whole style of play to fit with whatever idea they have in mind, or add things to stretch the game out. Frontiers would've been better without the mini-games and just focused on the enemies, perhaps using the guardian's defeat to unlock the map instead.

Every different customization of an AC might as well be a different character--I've made builds that could be considered the AC equivalent of Knuckles the Echidna with a Pile Bunker, to Miles "Tails" Prower with a more airborne mech, to a speedy Cream the Rabbit build with Cheese and Chocola orbiting bits that shoot at the enemy, to a Blaze build with Flamethrowers, to a legit actual Princess Sally Acorn build with wrist-mounted Energy Blades (unfortunately, I can only have it on one arm, so no dual blades like in AC4A).

I can take a few pictures later to show you too. But I need to start using the camera first. lol

Armored Core 6 could actually be useful in finding out how to make multiple viable characters playable.

In fact, that ties into the next point...

All Enemies Die the Same--AC6 Bosses don't change the gameplay, and can be killed very fast

Weather you're fighting the chicken walkers that go down with a sneeze, to MTs that take a few hits, to tanky tetrapods that are durable enough to keep fighting, enemy ACs fast enough to keep up with and damage you, to outright megabosses the size of a building or a city, the core of AC6 is this--do enough consecutive damage to Stagger your enemy and make them vulnerable for more damage.

Any weapon can do this. You can keep shooting them with machineguns, go back and forth with an energy blade, use a laser cannon, or a missile barrage to build up damage, but consecutive, aggressive damage will always stagger the enemy.

Some enemies might have an energy shield--lowering that shield can stagger the enemy. Some enemies might resurrect themselves--you can still stagger the resurrected enemy.

It doesn't matter how strange in design the enemy is, ALL enemies can be staggered.

That said...so can you, so be careful. If the enemy staggers you, they'll do to you what you'll do to them.

Sonic Frontiers tries to be unique by having certain bosses or enemies more or less lock you out of certain ways of combatting them. The Wolves require the counterattack before they can be vulnerable, the Ghost can't be hit at all and requires its statues to be destroyed, the Stider and Catepillar requires you to grind on their rails before they open their weak spots. Perhaps the only consistent bosses are the Ninjas and the Towers, as you just have to beat them up.

But worse, ironically enough, were the soldiers. At the first island, they're pretty basic, but afterwards they start armoring themselves to where you have to cyloop them to make them vunerable. It breaks the pace of combat when I attack, only to get knocked back because they decided to change into their shield mode at that last second.

Speaking of breaking pacing.

Level Design--ARMORED CORE 6 takes advantage of it's free-range movement

Oh, you guys know where I'm throwing shade at here--Chaos Island, the infamous level that goes from 3D to 2D more than any part of the game. Sure, there are other parts where this occurs, but Chaos Island is the worst.

Sonic Frontiers was advertised as an "Open Zone" game where there would be a greater range of freedom and movement, but then does this at moments you wouldn't expect. Even worse is when those parts could be fully explored in a 3D range of movement, but they just have to shift the camera so you play in a 2D state.

Yeah, no. AC6 doesn't do that. It movement and camera controls are all designed to allow you to move the full range of your AC. And the game itself takes advantage of it as well, as it has no problems with enemies shooting you in the back when you least expect it--that said, it does have an alert that warns you of the direction of such incoming attacks, so it's not completely unfair.

You can vault over buildings and streets, you can fly across mountains an cliffs, heck you even explore deep inside gigantic caverns. Really, the game basically puts you in a giant box, fills it with enemies, and lets you go crazy. It doesn't change the camera angle, it doesn't restrict your movements (well, not too much, as it does have markers to keep you from going out of bounds), and it has enemies that perform the same (well, the Filterchopter has gone beyond the bounds in the tutorial, but that's minor compared to Chaos Island's frequent 2D sections, and I can still shoot the bastard despite being out of bounds).

-----

There's a lot more that can be said that AC6 has that Frontiers doesn't, but you'll notice a core theme: Consistency. Frontiers still has moments where it is inconsistent to what it's trying to advertise as it tries to make itself feel like a Sonic game. Some parts work, other parts you could really do without.

And even when AC6 gives you customizations, those customizations still work in the bounds of the overall game. A tank tread or a quad-leg build can still fly and move fast despite being slower and bulkier compared to more lightweight builds. At the end of the day, however, you're still playing an mech.

Sonic Frontiers had moments where we running around, to doing mini-games, to playing Ikaruga. It's to the point that I would rather go fishing with Big that do most of what the game has to offer. I'm glad for it's success, but that's the core problem with Frontiers.

Edited November 10, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[Polkadi~☆]

Hard to answer because I am not Japanese nor do I have any finger on the pulse of the Japanese gaming market. But shoot, brand consistency and consumer trust helps. There are other SEGA games that sell better in Japan than they do worldwide, but that can be for any number of reasons, least of all that consumers put a stamp of quality onto them.

Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom and Armored Core 6 are very Japanese, though. Even if they sell more copies worldwide, it's not too hard to see how it appeals to Japanese gamers.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What about difficulty?

Armored Core 6 likes to kick your teeth in right at the beginning then ramps it up to the end, while Sonic games haven't usually been about that level of difficulty and tends to do so near the end. And that's without getting into other FromSoft games like Sekiro.

The Japanese also seem to play games that would be considered difficult as fuck compared to games in the west by average perception. Mind you, I'm just going on observation, so it may be more nuanced than that.

Edited November 10, 2023 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[Chocoburger]

Well, the first thing is to make a game that doesn't feel like its from 2005-2007 era of gaming, that would be a good start. The game released in 2022, make a game that feels like it belongs in 2022. The barren, boring areas to explore feel like they belong in a tech demo, rather than a retail release. The game mechanics are in many ways a step down from previous games. I still feel that Sonic Unleashed is a more ambitious, and modern game than Frontiers ended up as.

Sonic Unleashed had so much effort and detail to its levels, and Frontiers is just this plain, open space with almost nothing interesting to do in it. Put an end to Sonic Team having to constantly crunch to get a game out due to the executives forcing unreasonable deadlines. Give the team a chance to get some rest, and give them 5+ years to make a game, and make it ambitious enough where Nintendo's portable can't run the game. Go big, be ambitious like how Unleashed was back in 2008.

[Badnik Mechanic]

They give the player gameplay that means they have to earn the epic moments instead of having a game designed to give the player epic moments for barely doing anything?

[Iko]

Disclaimer:

- I know that Kishimoto asked those questions because he wants to know why those franchises sell more, and specifically in Japan;

- I know that Kishimoto will never read this post specifically.

This said, in my opinion, a better question is "What does Sonic have that Zelda and Armored Core don't". Find what makes Sonic special, and work on it.

Sonic has flow, you can chain actions into the next ones and never stop. Sonic has level design... being a platformer, most of the challenge should be about figuring how to traverse a space by going through an obstacle course.

Genre swapping isn't even that bad if done in a few situations when it makes sense, though the game should mostly focus on the core gameplay, because that's what people expect from Sonic.

So, don't focus on a combat system, nor on ability trees; just focus on Sonic's movements and level design.

Quality and consistency: the games should be less glitchy, have a more reliable physics system that doesn't need automation to make the gameplay work. Frontiers, especially after the updates, already did a big step forward on this... not that there isn't automation, but a lot more stuff is managed by the game system and not by automation, compared to older Sonic games.

Genuine challenge that tests the players' skills. The games don't have to be extremely difficult, they just need to have difficulty based on the ability of the player to control the character and use the moveset at full potential. Challenges that are purely about timing such as QTEs aren't good, they don't test any skill besides reflexes and concentration, and have nothing to do with the main gameplay of the game.

Variety and interaction: The games should be filled by many creative ideas, the world in the game should feel alive, and the player should want to experiment with the game and discover new stuff. Little details such as the firework cacti are a good thing, but there's too little of those in Frontiers. Make a lot of elements react to the player's movements, fill the game with surprises and depth.

 

---

 

Getting rid of Dimps was a bad idea if they want to reach the Japanese market. Dimps were the closest to make Sonic appealing in Japan, I feel like they understood what Japanese people liked of the franchise. Sonic Lost World 3DS might be a low effort game, but when it was new, the lobby in the multiplayer mode was filled with Japanese people who mastered those few levels and became monsters at them. Lost World 3DS, compared to the HD counterpart, was a more technical game that rewarded the player's skills and knownledge of the game's mechanics... it felt rewarding to master. I know that it was just a niche, but some Japanese people seemed to love it because of its gameplay. Think of the differences between the core gameplay of Lost World HD and Lost World 3DS, why Lost World 3DS was full of Japanese players online, and what makes that style of gameplay appealing to Japaneses... I think that this is just a small case but it's still worth studying.

[Wraith]

Fun fact about the Zelda series and Japan: the Fujibayashi-lead Phantom Hourglass was one of the most successful games in the entire series there. Handheld gaming was big at the same time as Twilight Princess's debut, so Phantom Hourglass actually outsold it in this one specific territory. Console games were seen as too committal at one point. It's been 15 years since then so I'm not sure if that's really true anymore, but the way BOTW distributes content in smaller chunks around the map definitely makes it better for handheld play sessions than the other 3D games.

 

While Sonic Frontiers was more successful overseas I think it's fair to say the games sales are pretty meager compared to the game playing population in both places. Focusing only on Japan might be losing sight of the bigger picture: Sonic game sales haven't scaled with the growth of the industry. These past few interviews indicate Sega has some awareness of it which is a good thing but I don't think they'll ever get it as long as they're looking at other games to find a sort of X factor. The X factor is that they're unique experiences. Sonic has the potential to be a unique experience too but they need to root it out and place it at the center of the experience the same way that Zelda did with BOTW. It can't be buried under ideas from other games like it is in Frontiers.

[DaBigJ]

Wait this isn't an April Fools joke?