Is it fair to compare Sonic Fan Games to the Sonic Team Made Games?

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Rabbitearsblog said:

It's a shame that some fans who developed these Sonic fan games would go out of their way to insult Sonic Team and declare their games are much better.  Sure, the games that Sonic Team put out are not perfect, but they don't deserve to be insulted like that.

Of course, especially since Sonic Team go through a lot more in a shorter amount of time and have more resources (as I have said) than fan game makers go through. Sonic Team making official games is all of different circumstances than fan game creators making fan games.

[Rabbitearsblog]

3 minutes ago, Thankful Gems said:

Of course, especially since Sonic Team go through a lot more in a shorter amount of time and have more resources (as I have said) than fan game makers go through. Sonic Team making official games is all of different circumstances than fan game creators making fan games.

I agree.  While the games from Sonic Team aren't perfect, there's a lot more going on behind the scenes than what most fans know about and SEGA is pretty notorious for rushing out Sonic games, which has been going on since Sonic the Hedgehog 2 came out on SEGA Genesis in 1992.

[Knight Terror]

3 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I agree.  While the games from Sonic Team aren't perfect, there's a lot more going on behind the scenes than what most fans know about and SEGA is pretty notorious for rushing out Sonic games, which has been going on since Sonic the Hedgehog 2 came out on SEGA Genesis in 1992.

There's a reason I dislike 2.

[Rabbitearsblog]

Just now, Knight Terror said:

There's a reason I dislike 2.

I actually really enjoyed 2!  I actually prefer it to the first game.  But, it's got nothing on Sonic 3 and Knuckles!

[Shiny Gems]

4 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I agree.  While the games from Sonic Team aren't perfect, there's a lot more going on behind the scenes than what most fans know about and SEGA is pretty notorious for rushing out Sonic games, which has been going on since Sonic the Hedgehog 2 came out on SEGA Genesis in 1992.

 

1 minute ago, Knight Terror said:

There's a reason I dislike 2.

Ah yes, there was going to be so much more content that ended up being scrapped. I would have loved to see Hidden Palace Zone be included in the final game back then, or the scrapped Blue Ocean Zone.

[Rabbitearsblog]

1 minute ago, Thankful Gems said:

 

Ah yes, there was going to be so much more content that ended up being scrapped. I would have loved to see Hidden Palace Zone be included in the final game back then, or the scrapped Blue Ocean Zone.

Oh yeah! It's a shame we didn't get Hidden Palace Zone and apparently, there was supposed to be an ending to the game that tied to Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

[Knight Terror]

3 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I actually really enjoyed 2!  I actually prefer it to the first game.  But, it's got nothing on Sonic 3 and Knuckles!

Can't argue with s3&k!

3 minutes ago, Thankful Gems said:

 

Ah yes, there was going to be so much more content that ended up being scrapped. I would have loved to see Hidden Palace Zone be included in the final game back then, or the scrapped Blue Ocean Zone.

I believe blue ocean was used as a reference for emerald coast (don't quote me on that)

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Rabbitearsblog said:

Oh yeah! It's a shame we didn't get Hidden Palace Zone and apparently, there was supposed to be an ending to the game that tied to Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

Ah, that would have been cool!

4 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I actually really enjoyed 2!  I actually prefer it to the first game.  But, it's got nothing on Sonic 3 and Knuckles!

I enjoyed Sonic 2 a lot, too. It was the first Sonic game that I ever played, by the way. Still, if Sega has been rushing Sonic games since that game, as you said, that game is still something that shows that Sonic games can be rushed and still be of great quality, like that game.

But then again, it is probably a better idea NOT to rush games at all.

[Ratchet25tx]

To me, NO! It's not cool to compare fangames to actual games not only just for Sonic, but for all video games in GENERAL! Reason why fangames are "better" than actual Sonic games is because fans have no budget, while Sonic Team DOES.

[Diogenes]

Not only is it fair, it's often the point. Fan games exist in response to the series, and given how much of a mess Sonic has been, they're often very pointed responses. You can't understand fan games without comparing them to official games.

[Shiny Gems]

30 minutes ago, Ratchet25tx said:

To me, NO! It's not cool to compare fangames to actual games not only just for Sonic, but for all video games in GENERAL! Reason why fangames are "better" than actual Sonic games is because fans have no budget, while Sonic Team DOES.

Agreed, for budget is something fan game creators don't need.

Plus, I do think its again, not fair to compare Sonic games to Sonic fan games, especially since many not-great Sonic games were more so average, but still not great. Plus, the only really bad games we have had are Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, and maybe a few other spin offs. But games like Sonic Heroes, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Lost World and Even Sonic Forces were more so average than bad. With that said, fans tend to exaggerate the flaws of such games, opinion or not. In fact, some of said fans hate good games like Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations as well as Sonic Frontiers, as well as games that have not aged well like Sonic Adventures 1 and 2, for reasons not shared by many people. Plus, unlike what was said right above this post, fan games can be understood without the official games, as the fan games and official games are so separate from each other in many ways, and many of them tend to please the members of the Sonic fanbase more than any other person. In fact, it is possible to get into the series by playing a fan game rather than an official game, especially if it is good. I am sure the fan games have some things the official games do not have that not only makes them separate, but easier to relate to for fans of the series rather than anyone for the matter. I am sure the fan games are "for the fans, by the fans", and are more so giving what the fans want, not what the official games in the series needs. Even if fan games couldn't be understood without the official games, that doesn't mean the fan games are greater than the official games, or are necessarily what the series needs, and the fan games can have faults in them.

But anyway, like I said, Sonic fan games are mostly "for the fans, by the fans". With that, given how bad the fanbase is with things, the fans in the Sonic fanbase are not always reliable to listen to when it comes to fan games or official games.

[Ratchet25tx]

2 minutes ago, Thankful Gems said:

Agreed, for budget is something fan game creators don't need.

Plus, I do think its again, not fair to compare Sonic games to Sonic fan games, especially since many not-great Sonic games were more so average, but still not great. Plus, the only really bad games we have had are Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, and maybe a few other spin offs. But games like Sonic Heroes, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Lost World and Even Sonic Forces were more so average than bad. With that said, fans tend to exaggerate the flaws of such games, opinion or not. In fact, some of said fans hate good games like Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations as well as Sonic Frontiers, as well as games that have not aged well like Sonic Adventures 1 and 2, for reasons not shared by many people. Plus, unlike what was said right above this post, fan games can be understood without the official games, as the fan games and official games are so separate from each other in many ways, and many of them tend to please the members of the Sonic fanbase more than any other person. In fact, it is possible to get into the series by playing a fan game rather than an official game, especially if it is good. I am sure the fan games have some things the official games do not have that not only makes them separate, but easier to relate to for fans of the series rather than anyone for the matter. I am sure the fan games are "for the fans, by the fans", and are more so giving what the fans want, not what the official games in the series needs. Even if fan games couldn't be understood without the official games, that doesn't mean the fan games are greater than the official games, or are necessarily what the series needs, and the fan games can have faults in them.

But anyway, like I said, Sonic fan games are mostly "for the fans, by the fans". With that, given how bad the fanbase is with things, the fans in the Sonic fanbase are not always reliable to listen to when it comes to fan games or official games.

agreed, but SB:RoL was fun to me since it had multiplayer options

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Ratchet25tx said:

agreed, but SB:RoL was fun to me since it had multiplayer options

I was just adding that as an example, but yeah, I do understand multiplayer was fun for you, and I respect that.

[Cosmos Rogue]

Fangames are developed by small teams, if not a single person, and have all the budget that the developers can spare after paying for their living expenses. Official games have dozens of developers and a budget in the tens of millions of dollars. So, no, it's not a fair comparison to make. Yet so long as the official games max out in quality as B grade experiences, while often being complete disasters, the comparisons will continue.

That said, the "but deadlines!!!" defense is actually another point against Sonic Team specifically. Deadlines are something nearly every single video game produced has. It is a simple fact of life developers have to live with. Sonic Team has a possibly unique track record regarding their inability to deliver focused, polished games that goes back a quarter of a century now.

[Shiny Gems]

Personally, I think that the deadlines themselves are not the problem, but rather, how companies like Sega handle them, and Sega does not seem to handle them well enough to allow for a polished game.

Still, developers like Sonic Team developing Sonic games before a deadline, with more resources and with a budget, and more manpower in itself is something that can be considered as being more impressive than that of most, if not, all fan game developers and what fan game developers do with their games; even if Sonic Team's efforts with some of their games have not been too stellar.

[Dummy Bear]

Between focus group testing, shareholders, target projections, executive meddling, demographics, mandates, last minute changes just because, and a bunch of other "corporate red tape" that goed on behind closed doors.

Not trying to be an apologist of anything but the corporate world sucks ass.

[Shiny Gems]

Another thing I would like to mention is this...

I would like to compare Sonic fan games with the efforts of that who is Toby Fox, especially with his first published creation that is Undertale. First, I would like to say that Sonic fan games tend to use a lot of reused assets from Sonic games, even if not all the time and with some assets being edited. While aspects of Sonic fan games can be held by one person alone, it is hard to do everything oneself than with doing things with other people. Now, Toby Fox, on the other hand, not only built a game that is Undertale from the ground up with a game creating software called Gamemaker (If that is its name), but he did just about everything himself, and he managed to get it published when he was finally done with making the game. From the music to the graphics to the story, he did it.

Also, important to note is that Sonic fan games tend to use already existing characters  and things from Sega's official Sonic games, with (sometimes) not enough things made for such fan games on their own.

So with all that, Sonic fan games are not (Or barely comparable) to even games made by Toby Fox, especially Undertale; as how that game was made; especially by one person; is to me, more impressive than what fan games have done. Also, it is true Sega hiring people like Taxman and Stealth to work on games like Sonic Mania is something that would be considered as a good thing, but even a number of people have compared Sonic Mania to be more like a Sonic fan game, plus outside of that, such fans only worked on remakes and collections of Sonic games, and Sonic Mania, while it had new stuff, still used stuff from past games, and Sonic Mania was very, very, very much like the classics and basically did nothing new. To me, that is something else that makes such fans who worked on Sonic Mania more like fan game makers in general in that regard.

Not that I am saying Stealth and Taxman's efforts were bad, nor am I saying Sonic fan games are not impressive whether or not they are compared to Toby Fox, I am just saying the former two people are still much like fan game creators in many ways, and I am just stating my point of view that how Toby Fox made Undertale is more impressive to me than what Sonic fan game makers may have done.

[Rabbitearsblog]

2 hours ago, Dummy Bear said:

Between focus group testing, shareholders, target projections, executive meddling, demographics, mandates, last minute changes just because, and a bunch of other "corporate red tape" that goed on behind closed doors.

Not trying to be an apologist of anything but the corporate world sucks ass.

I agree that trying to work in an environment that is really stressful can hamper your abilities to make clean and polished games.  SEGA really needs to do a better job with managing their employees and providing a better working environment for them.

[Maple Syrup]

There's not much I can say about this topic but that some fangames are good and some are well...bad. It is really nice of Sega to let the minds of fans run free in their games and we got really good and hilarious fangames that I enjoy!

[Shiny Gems]

17 minutes ago, Maple Syrup said:

There's not much I can say about this topic but that some fangames are good and some are well...bad. It is really nice of Sega to let the minds of fans run free in their games and we got really good and hilarious fangames that I enjoy!

Agreed. Sega does what Nintendon't; meaning Nintendo is nowhere near as fond of fan games based on their games like Sega is.

On that note (this is not towards you, Maple Syrup), I want to address something about a past post I made, something I did not make clear. I am aware that some Sonic fan games are original and do not reuse things from existing, official Sonic fan games for the most part, if at all. There is Sonic and the Fallen Star and Sonic Time Twisted, after all. They do basically use the same or nearly the same gameplay as the classic Sonic games, but still, you have to give credit to those games for having more originality. But yeah, not all fan games reuse things. That does not mean they are better than official Sonic games or more impressive in terms of being made, and with that, while the gameplay can still be good, it can still be nothing new.

[Sonker Sonkerton]

Heck Yeah. I mean, fans put as much work into them as Sega, and if you don't already know, Sonic Mania and TMOSTH WERE technically fangames.

[Shiny Gems]

Now, another thing I would like to point out is this; the software and any possible materials Sonic fan game makers use to make fan games with is most likely cheaper than what Sonic Team uses to make the official Sonic games, so there is that. Plus, with how advanced the software and other tools Sonic Team uses to make Sonic games, and the amount of work and manpower needed to use such tools, I am not sure if Sonic fan game creators would necessarily understand such tools and software that Sonic Team uses to make games with if they were to use them or work for Sega on making a game and thus use them. Even if they did, I am not sure how many Sonic fan game creators would work well with the world of business and how games are made in businesses like Sega, deadlines and all. Sure, there is Sonic Mania and the people behind it such as Stealth and Taxman, but that was just a 2D game with sprites, and even they did not get enough time to iron out all the flaws, for Sonic Mania still had issues like some glitches. Plus, they have not yet worked on a 3D Sonic game yet with Sega, so there is that.

So I don't think saying things like "Sega, hire this person" is necessarily going to always turn out well in the end, for the reasons I explained above and in other posts of mine. Whether they make good Sonic fan games or not, they are still amateurs by definition.

[Dummy Bear]

I should make clear again that even though the developers have access to more money than fan game developers and more resources, keep in mind that fan game communities have more creative freedom.

Also keep in mind that the money being used to fund the product isn't THEIR money and they still have to answer to the head honcho at the end of the day. A lot of the fan game creators are their own bosses for the most part.

[Rabbitearsblog]

1 hour ago, Thankful Gems said:

So I don't think saying things like "Sega, hire this person" is necessarily going to always turn out well in the end, for the reasons I explained above and in other posts of mine. Whether they make good Sonic fan games or not, they are still amateurs by definition.

Even if SEGA were to hire fans to work on their games, like Sonic Mania and The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog, the fans would still have to deal with SEGA's strict working environment and it's hard to say if any of the fans ever worked in such an environment that SEGA has.

[Starry Skydancer]

This...wasn't the direction I expected this thread to go in. What fangames do you think are better/on par than Sonic Teams?

On the topic of criticism, it's my understanding that criticising amateur projects without asking the creators is controversial since the project is not a product. There is a view that they made it for fun and they're not asking you to buy it, so you should ask before giving them criticism becuase you aren't entitled to do so- you're not a customer. I've never been quite sure what I think of that debate.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Starry Skydancer