Do you think the Sonic series is kind of sexist?

[CertifiedNobody]

50 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Well I think you guys are kind of cheating comparing Sonic to franchises that are basically on life support anyway.

I think the point is comparing Sonic to other contemporary franchises.

50 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Even if you were to arbitrarily limit your scope to mascot platformers, games like Crash, Shovel Knight, It Takes Two, etc. let you choose either gender and A Hat in Time locks you to female characters. There have even been a few Mario games where you can play as Peach or Toadette, which is something I didn't think would ever happen.

Sonic's done that too in several games (Rush, Rush Adventure, Heroes, Black Knight, etc...)

50 minutes ago, Wraith said:

and A Hat in Time locks you to female characters.

By the logic of some people here, that would mean they're sexist against men. We have to always have equal representation or we're clearly sexist.

50 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Why not simply make more characters that are more comparable to Sonic in terms of skill and promote them?

Because Sega got bullied for a decade by Genesis fans and gaming journalists for daring to make them play as "Sonic's stupid friends" and decided to just stick with Sonic Tails and Eggman because of Sonic 2 nostalgia . They've only started to change their stance because of Forces, Mania Plus, and Sonic Movie 2.

[KHCast]

6 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

By the logic of some people here, that would mean they're sexist against men. We have to always have equal representation or we're clearly sexist.

Sure, if they’re being disingenuous I’m sure they’re making that argument. Does a story that focuses on a gay character mean they’re straightphobic? Or a video game primarily focusing on black stories suddenly mean “reverse racism?”
 

There’s a clear difference between the status quo not always getting something catered at them, and a group that often time struggles with decent representation and attention getting a bone thrown to them. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Why not simply make more characters that are more comparable to Sonic in terms of skill and promote them?

Because Sega no longer do 'new characters'. Not playable ones. I mean, last one was Sticks, so in theory you should be happy. It's not Sega's fault that Sonic Boom sold terribly (...okay, it's totally their fault). Recurring cast stays in a corner and feeds of scraps. So status quo doesn't change, meaning only Sonic, Tails, Knuckles Shadow and Amy get some love. (Fine, Blaze and Cream weren't in Forces. You got me there).

Okay, they still make villains. I'm not sure, would feminist be happy if Lyric or Deadly Six had more chicks? Overall female primary antagonist are rare to this day. Especially if hero is dude. IDK, I guess some people would feel weird with heroic male beating up villain female on large scale.

...oh yea, and Dodon Pa, the forgettable one. But he was meant to resemble Eggman.

[CertifiedNobody]

We need to stop introducing new heroes entirely. The cast has ballooned in size over time and introducing another female hero as a major character will give decades-old characters even less importance. 

[Kuzu]

Half of these characters don't even do shit anyway; if Sega really gave a damn about any of them, we'd have seen Blaze, or Cream or Rouge or even Amy in a playable capacity now. 

Its pretty obvious where their priorities are. 

 

At that point, you may as well make a new major female hero that you actually care about using that's sensible for modern times.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Because Sega no longer do 'new characters'. Not playable ones. I mean, last one was Sticks, so in theory you should be happy. It's not Sega's fault that Sonic Boom sold terribly (...okay, it's totally their fault). Recurring cast stays in a corner and feeds of scraps. So status quo doesn't change, meaning only Sonic, Tails, Knuckles Shadow and Amy get some love. (Fine, Blaze and Cream weren't in Forces. You got me there).

Okay, they still make villains. I'm not sure, would feminist be happy if Lyric or Deadly Six had more chicks? Overall female primary antagonist are rare to this day. Especially if hero is dude. IDK, I guess some people would feel weird with heroic male beating up villain female on large scale.

...oh yea, and Dodon Pa, the forgettable one. But he was meant to resemble Eggman.

Sticks was a comic relief supporting character

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Because Sega no longer do 'new characters'. Not playable ones. I mean, last one was Sticks, so in theory you should be happy. It's not Sega's fault that Sonic Boom sold terribly (...okay, it's totally their fault). Recurring cast stays in a corner and feeds of scraps. So status quo doesn't change, meaning only Sonic, Tails, Knuckles Shadow and Amy get some love. (Fine, Blaze and Cream weren't in Forces. You got me there).

Okay, they still make villains. I'm not sure, would feminist be happy if Lyric or Deadly Six had more chicks? Overall female primary antagonist are rare to this day. Especially if hero is dude. IDK, I guess some people would feel weird with heroic male beating up villain female on large scale.

...oh yea, and Dodon Pa, the forgettable one. But he was meant to resemble Eggman.

Nor were the Babylon Rogues or Big in Forces. At least Big, Omega, and Jet were cameos in Generations…

 

The HBH had two girls.

 

The thing is, characters in general haven’t had enough meat on their (thinning) bones to merit returning after their game without some development, since around Unleashed. This is demonstrated when the response to their return being collective groans from fans (and strange indifference from critics) as opposed to the returns of older characters, especially given they don’t even try to develop these new characters, (They did try in the IDW Comics, but I feel it might be too little, too late) to the point where the Sonic Channel stories outright ignore them, to the point the Deadly Six don’t have Sonic Channel art. The Japanese games on the other hand aren’t much better with these characters than Pontaff’s versions. I feel like the HBH only squeaked by because they don’t talk and are from a “classic” game. Not talking didn’t save D-Fekt, though, and he’s as forgotten as DoDonpa (why did they never give him an English name?) now. 
 

That’s not to say Flynn also doesn’t have some issues, mainly in Worlds Unite; female-led franchises like Puyo Puyo and Darkstalkers were strangely absent, while Alia and Iris are also nowhere to be seen in action. 

[light-gaia]

8 hours ago, Iko said:

I'm here just to point out that I disagree with that.

Sonic Advance 1 did not use the classic design for the characters, but it was intended to be a follow up to the classic games regardless. If I remember the game even started its development as a remake of Sonic 1 and then became its own thing with time, due to the staff having new ideas and such. While the trilogy went to a different route, it started with the same roots as the classics, and while it wasn't as successful as the actual classic trilogy (obviously a minor spin-off didn't have the same impact as the birth of a gaming icon), it was still successful enough at the time, enough to justify the making of 2 sequels. The Advance games were considered smaller spin-offs to work as handheld counterparts of the console games, in fact Advance 2 has a bigger focus on rail grinding like Sonic Adventure 2, and Advance 3 is basically 2D Heroes. Regardless, Amy's iconic gameplay comes from the first game, that's the one which is the most faithful to the classics' design (physics might not be 1:1 and it might feature some optional melee moves, but still); there are countess classic fangames and rom hacks which feature Amy with a reworked Advance 1 gameplay, so I'm pretty sure people, even a big part of classic fans, have accepted that as the most logical solution for her gameplay, rolling/spindashing aside (some version allow her to). I'm pretty sure that if the developers of Mania went this route and made Amy playable with a reworked Advance 1 moveset, nobody would have complained and it would have been great even. They probably didn't want to associate themselves with Dimps' works for the bad reputation the fanbase gave to them, or just there's a mandate that Classic Amy is not able to fight so she can't be playable for that reason (I've never seen Classic Amy fight in a canon media except Sonic the Fighters where her moveset was too absurd to be considered canon, so this is totally possible IMO), I don't know.

Saying that the Advance Series can't be a base for something truly great is outright wrong; the trilogy does feature a lot of creativity and interesting concepts, along with using the classics as a base for their game design, so it's totally possible to make make a great game out of that formula. The original games were minor side project meant to support bigger releases, and they were developed in a small time frame from each other, plus with some hardware limitations; today this is not the case anymore and with the indie scene growing, even a small side project can become great if given to the right passionate people. A "Mania Advance" can totally be a truly great game if done right.

 

To reply to the title of the thread, no, I don't think so. Some characters are not treated equally due to popularity and marketing, but their gender has nothing to do with this. If the series was sexist, characters like Blaze would have never been created in the first place. Even Rouge, despite her oversexualized appearance, is treated with respect most (all?) of the times.

I highly disagree with his statement as well. And, as I said before, Ray and Might weren't even playable in the classic trilogy, they were playable in spin-offs with totally different gameplay. So, the Mania Team had to created their new move set. Why wouldn't they be able to do the same thing with Amy?

The answer is very simple: they probably didn't even consider that adding a female character was important.

Edited January 5, 2022 by light-gaia
Grammar checking

[CertifiedNobody]

58 minutes ago, Snowikaris said:

while Alia and Iris are also nowhere to be seen in action. 

Iris being there would be really odd considering the events of X4.

34 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

I highly disagree with his statement as well. And, as I said before, Ray and Might weren't even playable in the classic trilogy, they were playable in spin-offs with totally different gameplay. So, the Mania Team had to created their new move set. Why wouldn't they be able to do the same thing with Amy?

Mighty and Ray have very simple concepts that can be easily translated to gameplay. Mighty is strong & has a protective shell and Ray can glide.

Maybe the reason they didn't make Amy playable is because she kinda sucks ass in Sonic Advance? She lacks Sonic's agility and speed and her hammer doesn't work that great for 2D Sonic levels.

46 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

The answer is very simple: they probably didn't even consider that adding a female character was important.

Don't assume people's intentions.

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Iris being there would be really odd considering the events of X4.

Mighty and Ray have very simple concepts that can be easily translated to gameplay. Mighty is strong & has a protective shell and Ray can glide.

Maybe the reason they didn't make Amy playable is because she kinda sucks ass in Sonic Advance? She lacks Sonic's agility and speed and her hammer doesn't work that great for 2D Sonic levels.

Don't assume people's intentions.

1. Simple. Initially part of the mindless revived army, Zero’s love for her re-activated her memories and now she fights alongside the good guys or more likely helps rescue/heal the victims alongside characters like Felicia and Accord. Alia would be an active fighter alongside the main trio.  Tossing in Layer, Palette, Cinnamon, Marino, and Nana would be icing on the cake.

2. Indeed… but it’s notable Mighty’s wall jump from KC has been removed, and isn’t even available as an optional ability like the Insta-Shield and Peel Out. So who’s to say they can’t do something new for Amy?

[Wraith]

3 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

We need to stop introducing new heroes entirely. The cast has ballooned in size over time and introducing another female hero as a major character will give decades-old characters even less importance. 

New characters are one of the best ways to give the series a shot in the arm. We can't keep fretting over shit that's been on ice for 15 years. If they had any intentions of seriously using those characters by now they would have.

[MetalSkulkBane]

I feel like this topic is getting messy and I'm about to leave.

But before that I want to make sure on one thing: "girls deserve more screen time/bigger roles" is only major accusation here, yes?

No one has any (major) beef with women portrayal or how men treat women in the series, stuff like that?

if so, I think I can live with that.

[batson]

6 hours ago, KHCast said:

What? Lmao

It's true though. Sometimes the wish among character designers to be progressive and non-problematic ends up unintentionally creating situations where people with certain traits that exists in real life are swept under the rug. I'll give you another example. Look at this man:

Some people have than skin tone, especially in certain parts of Africa. But do you ever see a black cartoon or video game character with that skin tone? At the very least, it's exceptionally rare, at least over the past 10 years or so. As much as modern day western character designers tries to showcase a variety of skin tones on their characters, black characters or otherwise, they never go beyond a certain shade of black. And it's not because of racism; it's because of a wish to be to not be racist. The skin tone of the man in the picture draws to mind old racist caricatures when it's applied to a drawn or animated character, so it's (probably subconsciously) avoided. And that evasion would be fine if people with that skin color didn't actually exist, but they do.

As far as I'm concerned, true diversity and equality in media is when every type of person can exist within in, whether they be really busty women or really black black guys.

And now to watch this whole thread turn into a madhouse since I'm touching so many sensitive nerves...

[CertifiedNobody]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

New characters are one of the best ways to give the series a shot in the arm. We can't keep fretting over shit that's been on ice for 15 years. If they had any intentions of seriously using those characters by now they would have.

I agree, that's why I said new heroes specifically. New villains are very welcome.

23 minutes ago, Snowikaris said:

2. Indeed… but it’s notable Mighty’s wall jump from KC has been removed, and isn’t even available as an optional ability like the Insta-Shield and Peel Out. So who’s to say they can’t do something new for Amy?

Mighty's wall jump was probably removed since it doesn't really fit an armadillo (yes I know Knuckles gliding doesn't fit him either but that was almost 25 years earlier) and could break the level design in some areas. Amy is tough because every game except Heroes has established her as being much slower and less athletic than Sonic, being unable to spindash and very reliant on her hammer. 2D Sonic doesn't work with that very well, and given how they don't even let the Avatar from Forces have an actual homing attack, I don't think they want to make "civilian" characters equal to Sonic.

[Kuzu]

26 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

 

Mighty's wall jump was probably removed since it doesn't really fit an armadillo (yes I know Knuckles gliding doesn't fit him either but that was almost 25 years earlier) and could break the level design in some areas. Amy is tough because every game except Heroes has established her as being much slower and less athletic than Sonic, being unable to spindash and very reliant on her hammer. 2D Sonic doesn't work with that very well, and given how they don't even let the Avatar from Forces have an actual homing attack, I don't think they want to make "civilian" characters equal to Sonic.

Sonic Advance 2 literally gives Amy all of those abilities. And even Advance 1 managed to translate her moveset from Adventure fine 

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

New characters are one of the best ways to give the series a shot in the arm. We can't keep fretting over shit that's been on ice for 15 years. If they had any intentions of seriously using those characters by now they would have.

I think the problem comes from:

 

a. Them not giving any sort of proper sendoff to the older characters or even fully abandoning them, with the closest ones being Cream, the Babylon Rogues, and Sticks. Even then, even licensed products are still allowed to use most characters. The closest thing we have is something similar to comic book limbo.

b. The newer characters introduced since around Unleashed having all the impact of a wet fart on a pillow, giving people less confidence in Sonic Team in creating new characters in general, made even worse by the fact that these characters aren’t axed despite their unpopularity. Sonic Team would probably rely on external (likely western) designers or even a fan contest for new characters.
 

c. Nostalgia for these older characters, especially from whiny adventure fans. Nostalgia CAN have an impact on SEGA, see Sonic 4 as a good example. Who’s to say we don’t get a new game trying to shove these non-main characters in peoples faces with reset character arcs for the sake of nostalgia.

d. The treatment of Shadow in recent years doesn’t give people hope.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Snowikaris said:

I think the problem comes from:

 

a. Them not giving any sort of proper sendoff to the older characters or fully abandoning them, with the closest ones being Cream, the Babylon Rogues, and Sticks. Even then, even licensed products are still allowed to use most characters. The closest thing we have is something similar to comic book limbo.

b. The newer characters introduced since around Unleashed having all the impact of a wet fart on a pillow, giving people less confidence in Sonic Team in creating new characters in general, made even worse by the fact that these characters aren’t axed despite their unpopularity. 
 

c. Nostalgia for these older characters, especially from whiny adventure fans. Nostalgia CAN have an impact on SEGA, see Sonic 4 as a good example. Who’s to say we don’t get a new game trying to shove these non-main characters in peoples faces with reset character arcs for the sake of nostalgia.

None of this has anything to do with my point. I'm suggesting they introduce new characters specifically because there are gaps in the lineup old characters cannot fill.

[Multikaris]

33 minutes ago, Wraith said:

None of this has anything to do with my point. You guys having baggage over not being able to play as Cream anymore has anything to do with my proposal that they should introduce new characters to fill gaps in the lineup.

Agreed… 

 

A good solution is to introduce characters who aren’t technically new, but are being treated as if they were new. A great example would be the Freedom Fighters, who would be re-interpreted as a well-intentioned extremist group similar to the Repliforce (Megaman) and Future Foundation (Danganronpa) rather than out and out good guys, for more ambiguity even compared to GUN. They’d want Liberty for Mobians and ONLY Mobians, that being the key word. They could have genuine friendships with Sonic and company despite opposing them in terms of their stance on humans. It’s possible they could later devolve into outright monsters over time, similar to Repliforce in X5. Certainly, they’d be more interesting than Zuuzzagafrazz the Zolgagolga who is evil because all Zolgagolga are evil. 
 

And again, having character submission contests would be a good idea to make up for Sonic Team’s lackluster designs as of late. This is what the classic Mega Man series did, having contests to design its bosses.

 

And @Kuzu, there were female options in the Forces character creator. 
 

Also, what if the movies gender-flipped existing male characters to add more diversity? Some examples of characters I could see getting a gender flip include Espio, Charmy, Eggman Nega, and Jet.

[light-gaia]

3 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Mighty and Ray have very simple concepts that can be easily translated to gameplay. Mighty is strong & has a protective shell and Ray can glide.

Maybe the reason they didn't make Amy playable is because she kinda sucks ass in Sonic Advance? She lacks Sonic's agility and speed and her hammer doesn't work that great for 2D Sonic levels.

Don't assume people's intentions.

I'm not saying they consciously decided to not put Amy in the game, I said they probably didn't consider or discussed the possibility in the first place. I don't think the Mania Team is evil and hate women or something like that. You guys are overreacting to my feedback about the game. Putting Amy as a playable character would make Sonic Mania a more inclusive game, but the developers probably didn't have this idea because they are mostly men.

When it comes to Amy's gameplay. This is no excuse, they are game developers, they could improve her move set from Sonic Advance. I don't see why we should treat like it's impossible to develop a gameplay for Amy when there are hundreds of fan games that have her as a playable character.

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I feel like this topic is getting messy and I'm about to leave.

But before that I want to make sure on one thing: "girls deserve more screen time/bigger roles" is only major accusation here, yes?

No one has any (major) beef with women portrayal or how men treat women in the series, stuff like that?

if so, I think I can live with that.

Well, I'm not accusing the series of anything. I said Sonic was as sexist as the whole world and the whole video game industry, not more, not less. And I provided feedback about the lack of Amy as a playable character in Sonic Mania. Furthermore, I said the series is changing in these regards because the world is changing and there is demand for that.

Discussion about gender representativeness in games weren't so mainstream during the 90s or early 2000s. So, I don't see why we should accuse games like the classic trilogy or Sonic Adventure 2 for the lack of women representation. But, we can discuss that in the current projects, like the comics and future games.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Snowikaris said:

Agreed… 

A good solution is to introduce characters who aren’t technically new, but are being treated as if they were new. A great example would be the Freedom Fighters,

Alright. I can see this.

 

Quote

who would be re-interpreted as a well-intentioned extremist group similar to the Repliforce (Megaman) and Future Foundation (Danganronpa) rather than out and out good guys

And you lost me

[light-gaia]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

None of this has anything to do with my point. I'm suggesting they introduce new characters specifically because there are gaps in the lineup old characters cannot fill.

That's why Tangle and Whisper were created, according to Ian Flynn in one interview. They could bring them to the game's universe. He said the series needed more female characters they could use in the stories without having to provide a huge explanation every time. For example, every time they want to use Blaze, they need to explain why she is in Sonic's dimension.

[Multikaris]

22 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Alright. I can see this.

 

And you lost me

Well, do we have a well-intentioned extremist group in the series? 

[Kuzu]

40 minutes ago, Snowikaris said:

Well, do we have a well-intentioned extremist group in the series? 

No, but the Freedom Fighters have always been portrayed as completely morally upright. Turning them into an extremist group borders on character assassination.

 

Think about what Sonic Boom did to Knuckles and Shadow's characters and then really think if that's what you would want for the Freedom Fighters.

[Multikaris]

41 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

No, but the Freedom Fighters have always been portrayed as completely morally upright. Turning them into an extremist group borders on character assassination.

 

Think about what Sonic Boom did to Knuckles and Shadow's characters and then really think if that's what you would want for the Freedom Fighters.

…thinking about it, you’re right.

[KHCast]

4 hours ago, batson said:

It's true though. Sometimes the wish among character designers to be progressive and non-problematic ends up unintentionally creating situations where people with certain traits that exists in real life are swept under the rug. I'll give you another example. Look at this man:

Some people have than skin tone, especially in certain parts of Africa. But do you ever see a black cartoon or video game character with that skin tone? At the very least, it's exceptionally rare, at least over the past 10 years or so. As much as modern day western character designers tries to showcase a variety of skin tones on their characters, black characters or otherwise, they never go beyond a certain shade of black. And it's not because of racism; it's because of a wish to be to not be racist. The skin tone of the man in the picture draws to mind old racist caricatures when it's applied to a drawn or animated character, so it's (probably subconsciously) avoided. And that evasion would be fine if people with that skin color didn't actually exist, but they do.

As far as I'm concerned, true diversity and equality in media is when every type of person can exist within in, whether they be really busty women or really black black guys.

And now to watch this whole thread turn into a madhouse since I'm touching so many sensitive nerves...

I’m gonna say this right now as a black man myself: stop

[Iko]

7 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Maybe the reason they didn't make Amy playable is because she kinda sucks ass in Sonic Advance? She lacks Sonic's agility and speed and her hammer doesn't work that great for 2D Sonic levels.

She works great indeed, it's just too hard to play as, it requires a lot of skills and knownledge. Once you get used to her moveset, she's the most fun character to play as, and by far.

She's way more agile than Sonic too once you know how to play well.

Let's say that the problem here is that she's not intuitive enough and there is a skill barrier, rather than the moveset being bad.