Abortion

[CapnCloudchaser]

I agree with parts of what Baron is saying, apart from the God bit and some others.

I don't believe in God at all and I think life is a very sacred thing that should be preserved. I don't just mean human life born from human arrogance, but all forms of life; animals, plants, insects, they all deserve a chance at life. Not that it's possible that we can manage that without dying ourselves, and I've personally tried, but the intentions are there. I also agree that we are very similar to animals, although we got where we are as a species first. But, we are different from animals too, obviously. We can make conscious decisions based on other people, and not just for ourselves. We have that ability.

I would say that all life should have a chance. The only reason we have abortions in the first place is because the people involved cannot cope, though whatever reasons, either personal or societal (Ignoring the medical reasons). But if that support was there (Not that it probably ever will be) then the abortion rates would fall.

Do people really have uncontrollable urges? It sounds like just an excuse for irresponsibility to me. Surely if you know and understand yourself you'll also know that you may get carried away and should have protection at hand at all times, or be on the pill or something? I have nothing wrong with casual sex or any kind of sex, but if they're going to be crazy with it, they should at least carry protection with them or sort it out. After the first few times of accidentally falling on each other's bodies they should realise that by then >_>

I've heard people that have defended rapists and sexual abusers by stating that they couldn't control their urges. Would we not hold them responsible either?

[Agent York]

OK, I have to get this fish out of water. There is nothing wrong with having sex. Sex is great, it is a natural part of life. However, that is not saying we have no control over our desires, too often people give in because it feels good, forgetting what sex is even about.

Nothing wrong with giving in. But I have said this, and I will say it again. Accept the consequences of you're own actions. Sex is in nature made for ONE THING. It is there for animals to have babies. It feels good because we are made to enjoy having babies. It is in our basic coding to want to reproduce, and they make it feel good so we WANT to do it. It's you're choice, but if you're having sex, realize you're playing on thin ice between just having a good time and having a kid.

Playing with fire is fun. But when playing with it you have to think of the consequences of your actions and what might happen if something goes wrong. Easy, you set something or yourself on fire. Am I saying having sex is the same basic principle as playing with fire? NO. What I'm saying is we all have choices to make, all choices have ups and downs. Whenever it be a moral one, a physical one, or opportunity cost.

There are ways to make yourself not have kids if you really want to just have sex. What's this, you MIGHT want to have a child someday? If you're not ready to deal with a child, then be warned those who are having sex, you might end up with just that. You may have to make the choice, and you just had to cut your own child's life short from the beginning because you were just fooling around and treating sex as a PLAYTHING. Forgetting what sex is all about just because it feels good. Nothing wrong with that, but that kid ain't ever getting another shot. Your own child was never given a chance.

The decision is up to you. All actions have consequences involved, and if you think the risk really is worth it, it's up to you. I just wish people wouldn't be so arrogant to only think about themselves and the moment that the future problems and actions we might have to take and making someone who could of been your child never given the light of day just because we wanted the experience.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Dusk Golem

[Roarey Raccoon]

There are ways to make yourself not have kids if you really want to just have sex. What's this, you MIGHT want to have a child someday? If you're not ready to deal with a child, then be warned those who are having sex, you might end up with just that. You may have to make the choice, and you just had to cut your own child's life short from the beginning because you were just fooling around and treating sex as a PLAYTHING. Forgetting what sex is all about just because it feels good. Nothing wrong with that, but that kid ain't ever getting another shot. Your own child was never given a chance.

You'd have to look at why individual people are making the decisions they make, really. Can't just make complete generalisations about it XP. That's the thing with this issue, personal values and beliefs boil up and get in the way of actually understanding the people who make these decisions.

[Agent York]

You'd have to look at why individual people are making the decisions they make, really. Can't just make complete generalisations about it XP. That's the thing with this issue, personal values and beliefs boil up and get in the way of actually understanding the people who make these decisions.

This is completely true. However, if you're having it for ANY reason but having a kid, you do need to realize and consider what just might happen. Whenever it be for the fun of it, peer pressure, to take a relationship further, thoughts on it. Everyone is different, and I'm not claiming to understand every viewpoint or situation.

Now if you were raped or something, not given a choice in your actions, that is a bit more of a legal issue, and you should not be forced to have a child you were made to have against your will.

We could get into the fight that there would be no way to understand every position ever given, which is what makes this whole issue so tricky. It's life vs choice, why can't there be some third option where we can have BOTH of them?

The only way you could have that is if everyone thought in the same way, and if everyone was educated, considerate, and thought about choices before making them.

That makes everything boring though. And it's not going to happen anyways, so we as humans with colliding views and ideals try to fight for our opinion to the be the "Overall Right Decision". So that our morals and views are reflected on how the general populace and policies view them.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Dusk Golem

[Roarey Raccoon]

This is completely true. However, if you're having it for ANY reason but having a kid, you do need to realize and consider what just might happen. Whenever it be for the fun of it, peer pressure, to take a relationship further, thoughts on it. Everyone is different, and I'm not claiming to understand every viewpoint or situation.

Now if you were raped or something, not given a choice in your actions, that is a bit more of a legal issue, and you should not be forced to have a child you were made to have against your will.

We could get into the fight that there would be no way to understand every position ever given, which is what makes this whole issue so tricky. It's life vs choice, why can't there be some third option where we can have BOTH of them?

I'd say better education and support is required, particularly for young people, who are most prone to making uninformed decisions. If a mother really doesn't want to have her baby there's nothing you can do, she's going to try and terminate the pregnancy by some means or another so it's safer and more humane to have clinical abortions legal. That's already been said, so the issue should be more about how best to educate and help people going through things like abortion and to reduce pregnancies occuring in the first place. Our culture and society needs a hell of a lot more positive things to happen to it before we're going to have major progress.

[Agent York]

I'd say better education and support is required, particularly for young people, who are most prone to making uninformed decisions. If a mother really doesn't want to have her baby there's nothing you can do, she's going to try and terminate the pregnancy by some means or another so it's safer and more humane to have clinical abortions legal. That's already been said, so the issue should be more about how best to educate and help people going through things like abortion and to reduce pregnancies occuring in the first place. Our culture and society needs a hell of a lot more positive things to happen to it before we're going to have major progress.

This I can agree. It's not there aren't solutions, it's just the best solutions are not available to us. Education needs to be taught to a larger audience. And we do need a more positive and adept group of people to make any real progress. Like off the top of my head we could make centers to take in unwanted children so they can live and the mother has the choice to not have the kid, BUT there in that is so many problems, like who's paying for them, taking care of them, teaching them, how will the general populace react to these children (IE treat them inhumanly like they weren't human?), make all the centers be cared for and a lot more.

However, that's not the best plan, just one off the top of my head. The point is we OVER COMPLICATE things. We have created a system and stuck to it that in the end screws so many other potential good things off just because we're afraid of change and thinking outside the box, having to stick with rules and systems that while good, still have many faults. If we ever expect real progress, we need to expect real change.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Dusk Golem

[Roarey Raccoon]

This I can agree. It's not there aren't solutions, it's just the best solutions are not available to us. Education needs to be taught to a larger audience. And we do need a more positive and adept group of people to make any real progress. Like off the top of my head we could make centers to take in unwanted children so they can live and the mother has the choice to not have the kid, BUT there in that is so many problems, like who's paying for them, taking care of them, teaching them, how will the general populace react to these children (IE treat them inhumanly like they weren't human?), make all the centers be cared for and a lot more.

However, that's not the best plan, just one off the top of my head. The point is we OVER COMPLICATE things. We have created a system and stuck to it that in the end screws so many other potential good things off just because we're afraid of change and thinking outside the box, having to stick with rules and systems that while good, still have many faults. If we ever expect real progress, we need to expect real change.

Lol, we've already had such centers for a long time. You know, orphanages, care homes etc XP. There's only so much other people can do to care for unwanted children; reducing the numbers of unwanted pregnancies, reducing the strain on child services, is the important thing to do :F.

[Indigo Rush]

I agree that every case is special, and you can't generalize every case. Rape, specifically, and definitely if the woman is in danger of dying, but when I hear about abortion in context, it's usually along the lines of "Ew! A baby! Get rid of it!" At which point I made new friends. But really, I'm not an expert in the fertilization process, so I won't be making any statements out of the philosophical here. That baby that you don't want could be the next CEO of a grand company. I in fact know someone who chose not to have an abortion (after being pressured), and is watching her child grow and become an amazing scholar, athlete and overall good kid. I won't reveal any names, for their privacy, but I feel the case is general enough for you to believe it anyway. Children with minor flaws and deformities must be loved like any other child, not treated like a sick dog and shot out of its misery!

...*sigh* but that's my take on the subject. I suppose it's because of my personal backstory that I'm all about giving people the chance to live and be the best they can be.

But if you want to abort your child, by all means. Doesn't mean I have to like it, I'm sure we'll all agree.

Don't be hatin'.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Guybrush Threepwood

[Pelly <3's U]

^Or it could grow up to be a rapist, thief, or murderer.

See the problem with you trying to justify by those standards is that it could go either way. I personally don't like that argument though because it's almost as if you're trying to give a hierarchy and value to people's lives based on their career and generally how well their status appears to the outside world. It's just a ridiculous argument, almost as ridiculous as when people ask me, "How would you feel if you had been aborted?" XD

Also for all the pro lifers who find children so precious and valuable, you're sure quick to dole them out as punishments and consequences for people you see as irresponsible or dumb. Now it's not my point of view that people who get pregnant when they really don't want kids are somehow stupid/irresponsible/lazy/careless or whatever but if you're pro life, why are you so eager to give these people the kids that you seem to care so much about?

One thing that bothers me about a lot of prolife people I meet is that they don't seem to want the children to be born out of their own firm belief in human life but rather want them born as punishment to people they see as inferior. I mean if you really really believe that every fetus had the right to live then why is it ok to terminate them in the case or rape? It's the exact same thing as aborting any other child, the only difference is that in this case you don't see the woman at fault. Since she didn't make a mistake she doesn't have to have the child. It's not her fault so she shouldn't be given a consequence, and in this case it seems the consequence, the punishment, what she should get for her 'irresponsibility' is a child...

[Indigo Rush]

I see your point, particularly the last one involving the entire rape situation. I suppose if need be, and if it was possible, there is always foster parenting and orphanages if you really don't want your kid.

And it's really not so much that we see children as a punishment, it's more like "if you think having a child is such a terrible thing, then that's your perogative" sort of mindset. (at least for me)

It's a really touchy subject. =/

Edited September 15, 2009 by Guybrush Threepwood

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's a really touchy subject. =/

Which is why I'm pro-choice and feel that the decision of the embryo inside the woman's body should be left entirely up to the mother. Someone mentioned that females are biologically programmed not to care for their children, and with that in mind I wouldn't think one is choosing to abort the fetus just to avoid responsibilities.

Folks who oppose it aren't even bothering to put themselves in place of the person getting the abortion, and because of that I don't think anyone but the mother should have any say...well there's the father, provided he wanted to care for the baby.

[Indigo Rush]

Yeah, I think people have a right to decide, but I think I have a right to disagree as well. :P

[Pelly <3's U]

^So you're pro-choice then?

[Indigo Rush]

Pro choice, because I believe everyone has a right to choose what to do in life, whether it's right or wrong.

Unless I led you to believe otherwise, in that case, my bad.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Guybrush Threepwood

[Pelly <3's U]

No I was just wondering ;

I think the funny thing about being pro-choice is really you can be apathetic towards abortions or be altogether against them and still think people have the right to decide for themselves.

It's just sad how some people think pro choice = pro abortions.

[JezMM]

Yeah, I hate these "sensitive" words for views. If it were up to me I'd say "Pro-abortion" "anti-abortion" and "pro-choice" (Indigo's case, for example).

[BaronSFel001]

One thing that bothers me about a lot of prolife people I meet is that they don't seem to want the children to be born out of their own firm belief in human life but rather want them born as punishment to people they see as inferior. I mean if you really really believe that every fetus had the right to live then why is it ok to terminate them in the case or rape? It's the exact same thing as aborting any other child, the only difference is that in this case you don't see the woman at fault. Since she didn't make a mistake she doesn't have to have the child. It's not her fault so she shouldn't be given a consequence, and in this case it seems the consequence, the punishment, what she should get for her 'irresponsibility' is a child...

I resent your stereotypical views because they are off-base. If I read your question correctly, you believe pro-lifers think that abortion is okay in the case of rape? WRONG!!! Rape is tragic and not the woman's fault, but rape does not justify murder - and there is no way anyone can successfully portray abortion as anything less than murder. Again, you do need to (if only for a moment) consider the unborn child's rights.

As for the people who brought up the idea of charities to help the needy pregnant, that is a wonderful idea (for those who outright demanded that pro-lifers assume the burden of caring for the unwanted children who are carried to term, take a moment to listen to how ridiculous you sound). Such charities do exist, and should exist. In fact, there should be many more of them. Actually, there would be many more of them if programs such as Social Security, Medicaid, other entitlements and welfare were not interfering. Personally, I love it when a church starts and supports a godparent home.

Time for a philosophical lesson: consequences come whether one is at fault or not - but that does not change the fact that evading the consequences is in itself still a blatant act of irresponsibility. Besides, the right thing to do in any case is to let the circle of justice form. The baby should be carried to term, his/her parentage should be determined (if necessary), and the thug should be made to squeeze out his life's worth on child support while he rots in prison.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

This might just be from my experience, but would anyone else agree that more pro-life people seem to be religious, then not? I've always seen religion as a common factor in this.

If it is for religious reasons, then they might as well direct it elsewhere, because the US constitution calls for a separation of the church and the state. Religion has no business in issues such as this.

[turbojet]

Abstinence

Nope. Not happening. Maybe I can be extra safe and meticulous,but no sex period? Personally, I leave all the responsibility to the female. If she wants to have sex, cool. If she doesn't then I respect her choice. Not saying that I'm a sex fiend, but I see that particuliar part of Christianity as bullshit. Especially since they're plenty instances that advocate "devious" behaviors. Read the Songs of Soloman and say that Solomon was abstinant before having a 100 wives.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

and there is no way anyone can successfully portray abortion as anything less than murder.

The issue of abortion doesn't really concern anyone more than the person getting it.

There's a difference between terminating an embryo and driving a knife through a 3-year-old infant. If you don't see the difference, well I can't make you see any further. But likewise, it's the same to the other end of the spectrum, except you're trying to force it. tsk tsk.

Again, you do need to (if only for a moment) consider the unborn child's rights.

What rights? Their right to continue in the womb belongs to the mother, not anyone else.

(for those who outright demanded that pro-lifers assume the burden of caring for the unwanted children who are carried to term, take a moment to listen to how ridiculous you sound).

HAHAHAHAH!

OH, don't even try to switch that on us. We didn't demand anything, if you even paid any attention to the words said.

What was said was that if you care so deeply about the life of the embryo in the womb, why don't you offer and help raise it, because if you're not then you can't tell anyone else what they should do in concern for their unborn child inside THEIR womb.

The womb is like property. If you own it, do what you want with it: donate it, rip it, mess it up, etc. If you don't own it, you can't do anything about it. You can influence, but not force, and if they choose to go through with what they want, let them. It's THEIR business.

Edited September 16, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Indigo Rush]

The womb is like property. If you own it, do what you want with it: donate it, rip it, mess it up, etc. If you don't own it, you can't do anything about it. You can influence, but not force, and if they choose to go through with what they want, let them. It's THEIR business.

If I'm understanding what you're saying, and I may be wrong (it's like midnight over here, bear with me) are you saying that the womb, and essentially the child, is the mother's property? That makes sense. So I guess if you didn't want you're 5 year old anymore, it's fine to just kill him/her? You seem to rationalize it with this...

There's a difference between terminating an embryo and driving a knife through a 3-year-old infant.

What's the difference? It may be there, since the child can't think for him/herself at that age, but to many people it's the same thing as taking a little kid and throwing him/her in a gas chamber. At what point is there a line drawn that confirms the embryo as a human being? If you ask me, it's a human from conception, but that's my worldview.

I always say I'm pro-choice and believe the woman has the right to abort a baby, but the act of killing a baby, no matter what age, what he/she looks like, or what he/she may grow up to be, will never look good to me.

But I'll be honest, if Pelly hadn't said anything about the rape situation and how that relates to my worldview, I'd still walk around saying that I think it's okay. I really think the only case I can see me agreeing with aborting the child is if the mother's life was in danger. That's it. I can't think of anything else now.

To many people, an embryo is just a blob of cells, but to me, that embryo deserves a chance to live life like any other.

[BaronSFel001]

If it is for religious reasons, then they might as well direct it elsewhere, because the US constitution calls for a separation of the church and the state. Religion has no business in issues such as this.

Not true, actually. The exact wording is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." I have no clue how people in their right minds can translate that as "religion has no place in the public sphere." It is certainly not what the Founding Fathers intended, as evidenced by the fact that Christianity flourished in the American government until about the 1940s or 1950s (prayer in Congress, anyone? If only...).

[Indigo Rush]

Not true, actually. The exact wording is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." I have no clue how people in their right minds can translate that as "religion has no place in the public sphere." It is certainly not what the Founding Fathers intended, as evidenced by the fact that Christianity flourished in the American government until about the 1940s or 1950s (prayer in Congress, anyone? If only...).

Not to mention swearing on the Bible, but that's a different debate.

[Dr. Good Girl]

Plus, abortion can save money for the family who can't afford to pay all the things that a child needs.

[JezMM]

Plus, abortion can save money for the family who can't afford to pay all the things that a child needs.

Err, you serious? I'm pro-choice and even I think that's a silly reason for abortions to be okay. Unless of course you are talking about costs that the family simply CAN'T cover, but if so, you chose a weird way of wording it.

"How can we save money?"

"Oooh, well, I got a coupon for subway the other day, and if we buy the supermarket's own brand we'll save a lot. Oh, and abort that baby too, and we can go on holiday next year."

Seriously whut?