Abortion

[Tornado]

Matter of fact, the controversy surrounding abortion also settles on the matter over whether or not a fetuses' nervous system is sufficiently developed enough to percieve pain from termination methods.

Actually, its more along the lines of whether or not the fetus has human emotions/consciousness. If it was merely a statute of pain euthanasia wouldn't be allowed for animals.

That's not even the correct terminology if you think about it because a woman's system changes enough when she is pregnant to ensure that the child is not a strain, such as her blood volume increasing by 40% on average.

Some actual parasites do much the same thing.

The fact that children of 22 weeks gestation can be saved by medical intervention and yet children up to 24 weeks can be aborted is frankly, horrific

"Saved" is a relative term. They may not be dead if medical intervention is put in place immediately, no, but that does not mean that they will live particularly long or normal lives. And because no two situations are alike, there really can not be any standards in either direction.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Tornado

[TitanFifty]

No one should have the right to tell what a woman should or should not do with her body other than her.

I am a definite pro-choice. I understand and accept that there should be resctritions (ie, not just because the woman was too lazy/stupid/whatever to use contraception), and the foetus should be under 24 weeks old, but other than that, there should be no other say in the matter

[TheGerkuman]

The thing is Tornado, the laws stop things being tried on case-by-case merits over here. If they're below 22 weeks that's it. And that isn't right. I'm all for the idea that rules like that (the incubation of extremely premature infants) should be able to be flexible enough to allow babies/fetuses to be saved if they have a chance of a healthy life. At the moment, the doctor's and nurse's hands are tied.

Personally, I do see abortion being pushed by the government as the normal and easy option, and that's not a good idea in my view because of the fact that every person and situation is different. (As well as my personal views, of course)

[Tornado]

The thing is Tornado, the laws stop things being tried on case-by-case merits over here. If they're below 22 weeks that's it. And that isn't right. I'm all for the idea that rules like that (the incubation of extremely premature infants) should be able to be flexible enough to allow babies/fetuses to be saved if they have a chance of a healthy life. At the moment, the doctor's and nurse's hands are tied.

That, strictly speaking, isn't really an abortion issue. Its a children's health care issue.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Tornado

[Paul Str337]

Oh Omega, I love your awesome topic title.

It’s easy for me to sit here and say “I think abortion is ok” but at the end of the day I’m a guy and I’m never going to be faces with the exact choice to make as a girl. I do agree with abortion and I also agree it should never be taken lightly. Rather than my view point being born through some misguided sense of morality it’s more to do with how violently I feel about people who are so anti abortion

The type of people I’m talking about are the ones who brand abortion the same as murder and damn and condemn it as the ultimate evil. While I’m sure there are some people do really get an abortion without thinking it through, damning someone who’s agonised about the decision for weeks is abhorrent.

In my opinion anyway.

[CapnCloudchaser]

I've been following this thread and thinking about it a great deal, and I've come to the conclusion there is nothing I can really say, because all of my thoughts and beliefs and idealistic ones, and well, we don't live in a idealistic world. For our society now, in this current time, abortion is necessary. But that doesn't mean we can't make a better future. Although that is false optimism too. Whilst I could never condone forcing a woman to have a child against her will, in the same way I could never condone pressuring a woman to have an abortion either, I do think there should be incentives, in the future, which ease that choice. But I also think there should be a limit on the amount of children per family as well. There are many children that live in poverty, in family units that cannot or will not provide for them. Some of these are large families. Without sounding cynical, some of these children are the product of lazy or selfish parenting. Abortion wouldn't help those children. But a better world all round would.. And that is idealistic.

[BaronSFel001]

Even if abortion is illegal, it will still happen. It's not something that is ever going to stop. Women will just go straight to back alley abortions if they have too or if they're just that desperate, which will risk the mother dying too.

Sure, they will. But what would make someone so desperate in the first place? This is what abortion is: an extension of a long series of evaded responsibilities - irresponsible relationship leads to irresponsible physical acts leads to additional irresponsible choices, and every step of the way, it is human nature to try to evade that responsibility. I have no pity for a woman who gets pregnant through her own irresponsibility (rape is a totally different matter, of course).

Abortion is the taking of a life, plain and simple. I do not understand why so many people cannot see it for the act of murder it is. I have heard all the arguments, and none of them fly (except, perhaps, to those who would rather have no responsibility in the first place). At the moment of conception, a new, separate human life is created, and that life has been granted by God the right to be born and live (and because that right is granted by God, it is a crime against humanity for any person to deny someone that right). There is no justification for murder, right? Can pro-choicers even see their own hypocrisy, that abortion is nothing less than retroactive infanticide? In that case, why is infanticide not legal?

That is the fundamental argument, but there are other considerations. For those who argue that it is the woman's body, would you please actually get your scientific facts straight? For those who go so far as to consider the fetus a sort of "parasite," remember that dependency on the parent does not end with birth. For those who try to act compassionate by saying that it cures a child of an unwanted existence, what in heaven or hell gives people the right to definitively foretell such an outcome and make up their mind on that? For those who think it is about freedom of choice, I am all for personal freedom of choice myself...except when it commits an infraction or violates the rights of another.

And the world is not overpopulated, sorry. The entire population, given a few square feet each, could fit into the state of Texas. It is only a matter of better management of the resources we have (in other words, *gasp*, responsibility).

[batson]

Okay, i just feel like i have to say one thing here: the pro-choice argument that women should be allowed to have abortions based on the fact that they dont have the financial means to support a child or that having i child would ruin their lives in one way or another is an extremely hypocritical thing to say, considering that MEN cant get out of having a child with those arguments. Really, having child can screw up the life of an unprepared father just as much as it can that of an unprepared mother.

But dont get me wrong, i am absoluetly not saying that men should be able to force the woman they have impregnated to have an abortion. Dear God no. But what i am saying is that since the "but if a baby would ruin the mothers life, then shouldn't she be able to choose to not have the baby?"-arguement is hypocritical due to the fact that fathers often have to deal with exactly the same problems as the mother yet not in any way be allowed to have a saying about it, that makes it an invalid argument.

The argument about it being the womans body and thus her being the only one who should have a saying about the issue is a much more valid argument.

[Kevin]

I'm going to go out and offer a different opinion here. The solution to abortion shouldn't be "pro-choice" or "pro-life", it should be "How do we reduce the number of abortions?". Let's face it, abortions in general will never go away completely, and it's something that woman shouldn't have to go through to begin with given the huge amount of emotional stress the woman goes through when she is deciding whether to have one or not, and getting the actual procedure.

Some solutions on how to reduce the number of abortions include comphrehensive sex education (no, abstinence only doesn't work) and access to contraception and programs that curb domestic violence and sexual abuse. The root of the problem is unintended pregnancy. If those can be reduced, then the number of abortions can start to be reduced.

Making abortions illegal will not solve the problem and will risk making the problem worse. When something that was once legal is made illegal, then people are obviously turn to turn to illegal and often risky ways of getting something.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think we got a biter!

I have no pity for a woman who gets pregnant through her own irresponsibility (rape is a totally different matter, of course).

It's not always her responsiblity, nor is always rape. There's always the likelyhood of the condom failing.

At the moment of conception, a new, separate human life is created, and that life has been granted by God the right to be born and live (and because that right is granted by God, it is a crime against humanity for any person to deny someone that right).

Sorry to burst your big ol' bubble, but not all of us agree to that. And I'm pretty sure that's where separation of church and state comes in when it's a governmental issue.

Can pro-choicers even see their own hypocrisy, that abortion is nothing less than retroactive infanticide?

Nope, because we don't see anything hypocritical. If they choose to have the baby, then they choose to have the baby.

If they don't, well nothing we can do about it, sadly.

In that case, why is infanticide not legal?

Because the child's been born, I guess. Either way, an embryo isn't an infant, silly.

That is the fundamental argument, but there are other considerations. For those who argue that it is the woman's body, would you please actually get your scientific facts straight?

There's no other fact other than it being the woman's body. It doesn't matter how she'll be afterwards, you can't force her to do what she doesn't, bottom line. It's like if someone made it manditory for you to stick a pipe straight through your penis, and you don't want that now do ya? That'll do more than hurt your tool, it'll kill off the sperm!

By the way, have you even been pregnant before?

For those who think it is about freedom of choice, I am all for personal freedom of choice myself...except when it commits an infraction or violates the rights of another.

Well if you're so concered with that, why don't you offer your services and be a part of the infant's life and help the mother raise it when it's born? Because other than that, you nor I really have any say it what the would-be mother chooses.

With all due respect, if you don't believe an having abortions, then by all means that's your belief. But seriously, your way of living shouldn't be forced on someone who prefers another.

Not saying that an abortion should be the first thing to a woman's mind. I'd advise it as a last resort. But who's to stop them from making it their first?

I'm going to go out and offer a different opinion here. The solution to abortion shouldn't be "pro-choice" or "pro-life", it should be "How do we reduce the number of abortions?".

Condoms? Although so do take a risk without it... Edited September 15, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Chile]

This is a tough issue for me. It's not a decision to be taken lightly, and I feel it should be a last resort. If the birth would seriously harm both the mother and the baby, then I would be for it. Same with rape ans incest if the woman feels that she would be further traumatized if she were to go through with the pregnancy.

[Roarey Raccoon]

Abortion is the taking of a life, plain and simple. I do not understand why so many people cannot see it for the act of murder it is.

If so many people aren't seeing what you see then it isn't plain and simple, is it, you silly chuffer?

What right do you have to proclaim that God sanctifies and creates all human life? Bugger that for a lark, look at all the poor fuckers born with birth defects and horrendous genetic conditions, not to mention natural deaths in the womb and the fact that termination is a natural process that occurs at every conception. If I'm going to believe some twat's in charge of all this chaos, it'd have to be a straight up fucking joke of the blackest humour. Haha, look at that one, it's born without a face! Cracks me up every time!

[whatagreatview]

People should do what's best for them, including abortion. You could say I am pro-choice.

[Badnik Zero]

Basically for this issue, I think a woman's opinion is worth twice that of a guy's, since it's her that's has the responsibility of carrying and most likely raising the child. With that said I do have an opinion of my own.

It really bothers me when people say life starts at the moment of conception.

That ball of human cells is not a life yet, because the fetus ends with its mother. If she treats it well it'll be born well. If some trauma occurs she could miscarry. If she's a crack user it becomes a crack baby. That fetus's whole existence is the woman carrying it. It's nothing but potential for life. So are sperm and egg cells. Women waste those once a month, and guys waste them who knows how many times a week. Which makes me think this is less of an emotional issue and more of a religious one. Not that many people claim it's otherwise.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Ezra the Badnik

[BaronSFel001]

There's always the likelyhood of the condom failing.

How about abstinence? It is no excuse when the responsible thing is not to have sex in the first place. I have pondered this recently: could we stop acting like animals by having sex with whomever whenever we want (cutting away the excess burden when things get complicated), and start acting like responsible human beings?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

How about abstinence?

It works less than a condom. It's hard to supress raging hormones for very many people, so if they feel that they just have to have sex, they should never forget the condom to avoid unwanted pregnancies...or masturbate.

Again, it's a matter of choice; one that you have no say in unless the person involved is YOU.

It is no excuse when the responsible thing is not to have sex in the first place.

Says those who believe in what you do. But many of us believe otherwise.

I'd actually agree with this statement if it weren't for one thing: you can't guarantee that with everyone, and for that I still advise a condom.

I have pondered this recently: could we stop acting like animals by having sex with whomever whenever we want (cutting away the excess burden when things get complicated), and start acting like responsible human beings?

Buddy, if you want to compare human behavior to that of animals, I will blow your fucking mind on how we are TOO similar those such as wolves, lions, etc. Down to the last trait.

I'd even go so far as to say we're just like them in almost everything we do, with few exceptions. And it doesn't even have to involve sexual intercourse.

EDIT: I need to stop spelling "your" like "you're".

Edited September 15, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Roarey Raccoon]

The natural world makes people look like loving angels. That's why I'd never live in a bloody forest. People are pretty awesome =O.

If we really are a load of trash then we've still not done too badly at all. I mean considering the circumstances, what with everything on this planet and the entire surrounding universe being basically increasingly hostile towards all forms of life. There was a lung transplant performed at the hospital round the corner from my house, that's pretty amazing. If we're really created by God and we're truly that awful, then who else to blame for it but that dizzy arsehole? When your very young child makes mistakes because he/she hasn't yet been taught how things work, are they to blame for it? Are animals to blame when they hurt people or is the greater source of intelligence and power the one with the responsibility? Oh shit, penny's dropped D=.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Roarz

[Tornado]

Says those who believe in what you do. But many of us believe otherwise.

Actually, I'd agree with Baron on that point. Probably for a completely different reason, but nonetheless I see where he's going.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Actually, I'd agree with Baron on that point. Probably for a completely different reason, but nonetheless I see where he's going.

D'Oh. I read that the wrong way then.

My bad. But I stand my ground on everything else.

[Badnik Zero]

Hold on. I wouldn't say abstinence is the answer here. Sex comes naturally to a LOT of people, and the billion dollar porn industry is my witness on that. We have birth control to help with things like this. Abortion is for unfortunate mistakes a person might run into. Why don't we stop having irresponsible sex? Because sex is natural and we're built for it. It's not even a real question. Some people might think that girls who get abortions are all a bunch of cheap whores who were too lazy to take a pill. I know two people who had the procedure and they're not that, but the clinics sure treated them that way. You know what, I'd even say that abortion has been around for almost as long as sex, except back then it was called "kick the bitch in the stomach" and the people doing it weren't doctors. If a woman becomes pregnant and doesn't have the means or desire to raise a kid, she shouldn't have to carry full term because someone with the high ground decided what kind of sex she should be having.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Ezra the Badnik

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Those clinics should know better than to treat those two girls like sluts. Last I checked, isn't that against federal law and that they shouldn't treat their patientss in that manner? And doesn't the pill fail after using it for a while, or is that just false information I heard about.

Either way, when in doubt, bring the condom out.

Edited September 15, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[BaronSFel001]

Those clinics should know better than to treat those two girls like sluts. Last I checked, isn't that against federal law and that they shouldn't treat their patientss in that manner? And doesn't the pill fail after using it for a while, or is that just false information I heard about.

No one can trust places such as Planned Parenthood - I have seen enough videos taken by undercover operatives to know that it is not a pretty picture where the welfare of neither the girl nor the baby is really cared about. I know nothing about the pill, but I have nothing against medicinal contraception as long as it does not kill off a fetus.

EDIT: about the porn industry part, while you could see that as testament to the sexual nature of human beings (something which I do not deny in the least), that is not the same thing as saying that people cannot control themselves (which they certainly can). Aside from that, I seem to recall reading some data showing that exposure to pornography actually makes someone more likely to act on their fantasies and less likely to treat the objects of their fantasies with respect. The world would definitely be better off if such imagery were denied or at least severely restricted. Pornography is utterly vulgar and can easily be seen as degrading to the point of slander, traits which disqualify it as free speech.

Edited September 15, 2009 by BaronSFel001

[Indigo Rush]

Sure, they will. But what would make someone so desperate in the first place? This is what abortion is: an extension of a long series of evaded responsibilities - irresponsible relationship leads to irresponsible physical acts leads to additional irresponsible choices, and every step of the way, it is human nature to try to evade that responsibility. I have no pity for a woman who gets pregnant through her own irresponsibility (rape is a totally different matter, of course).

Abortion is the taking of a life, plain and simple. I do not understand why so many people cannot see it for the act of murder it is. I have heard all the arguments, and none of them fly (except, perhaps, to those who would rather have no responsibility in the first place). At the moment of conception, a new, separate human life is created, and that life has been granted by God the right to be born and live (and because that right is granted by God, it is a crime against humanity for any person to deny someone that right). There is no justification for murder, right? Can pro-choicers even see their own hypocrisy, that abortion is nothing less than retroactive infanticide? In that case, why is infanticide not legal?

That is the fundamental argument, but there are other considerations. For those who argue that it is the woman's body, would you please actually get your scientific facts straight? For those who go so far as to consider the fetus a sort of "parasite," remember that dependency on the parent does not end with birth. For those who try to act compassionate by saying that it cures a child of an unwanted existence, what in heaven or hell gives people the right to definitively foretell such an outcome and make up their mind on that? For those who think it is about freedom of choice, I am all for personal freedom of choice myself...except when it commits an infraction or violates the rights of another.

And the world is not overpopulated, sorry. The entire population, given a few square feet each, could fit into the state of Texas. It is only a matter of better management of the resources we have (in other words, *gasp*, responsibility).

Pretty much everything Baron said.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Guybrush Threepwood

[JezMM]

I think it's really easy to point the finger and say "They're bad people for having an abortion, they should have just not had sex, blah blah blah." Do you really think abortions are easy things to have? Do you really think the vast majority consider it a form of contraception? No matter how pro-life you may be, chances are you can't begin to imagine how much the person themselves are feeling if they feel they need to have an abortion. No matter how much you might hate it, the mother (hell, possibly even the father if it's a loving relationship) going through it probably hates it way more than you do, albeit for different reasons.

How to say this... are there any charities out there for "raising money for mothers/couples who were forced to have babies when they didn't want to or couldn't provide for them"? Because if you're pro-life I frankly think that you should also be thinking "if my views were law, I would definately provide my help with such a cause". If you're gonna fuck with peoples lives I think you should handle the consequences too, is what I'm saying.

It's also easy to talk about adoption as an alternative, but, personally, if I was in a situation where abortion seemed to be the only answer, and it turned out it couldn't be done, I'd be posessive and want to keep it myself anyway. And that's to say nothing of the mother who is basically biologically PROGRAMMED to not give the baby away. So that can't always work.

What else... oh, the sexual urges thing. Some people can repress them and that's great, but not everyone. Sure we "should act like responsible humans", but humans are animals too. To which you might reply "We're more intelligent, we should know better." And we are, and we do. It's why we have contraception with something like 98% success rates, which I think is pretty cool.

But... yeah, urges are hard to fight. Believe it or not, two people filled with passion can accidentally have sex without thinking about it. The ability to ignore these urges aren't ingrained in everyone. And I don't think those people should suffer because there are a few people who can ignore the urges being pompous saying "it's your own fault, because -I- can repress something so should you!"

TL;DR:

-Abortion is really hard, scary and traumatising and is most often NOT seen as "the easy way out".

-If you're pro-life you should take some responsibility for the harsh lives your views would bring to parents and their unwanted children.

-Adoption is just as hard as abortion itself. Giving something away that your body is telling you to keep really messes people up too.

-Sex is fucking fun and if it was just meant for making babies it wouldn't feel so damn good. People shouldn't be punished for enjoying it just because you aren't.

For entirely my own view: if Mollfie and I ever had an accident, we could probably just about handle it and wouldn't get an abortion, but it's comforting to have the option avaliable, so I'm totally pro-choice.

Edited September 15, 2009 by JezMM

[Sarge]

How about abstinence? It is no excuse when the responsible thing is not to have sex in the first place. I have pondered this recently: could we stop acting like animals by having sex with whomever whenever we want (cutting away the excess burden when things get complicated), and start acting like responsible human beings?

Sorry man, despite what ever your believes are, we are very much animals. Wonderful creatures of nature, we just happen to make the fire first .

And I'm going to repeat what Jez said: Sex is wonderful and shouldn't ever be deemed as something dirty and shameful. Its the very reason why we are here today, and why should something that feel so good and responsible for the greatest gift we have be looked down on so much?

Just if anyone is curious, we already pay for the people who keep their kids. Its called Food Stamps, EBT, Snaps, what ever the fuck they want to call it now. It pisses me off to no end to see my tax dollars wasted. (EDIT: Took out a sentence here that would really make people give me weird looks XD)

Okay, I would never do that (I love kids!), that was my rage against the fucks driving 09 Audies and paying for their junk food in stamps. Perhaps I'll stick a potato in their exhaust instead .

And Baron, I also believe the best way to prevent pregnancy is no sex at all but the honest truth is that will never work, so keep a condom with 'ya, okay? Might need it .

Edited September 15, 2009 by Sarge