Sonic 30th predictions

[A_W]

11 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

1. Being a new version of old game doesn't mean it uses the same old engine. Super Monkey Ball Banana Blitz HD it's a port of an old Wii game and the new version uses Unity.

Although cases like Banana Blitz HD and Final Fantasy IX do exist, PjD Mega39's definitely did not switch engines. Hackers got into it on Day 1 and confirmed it has the exact same file structure as PS4 Future Tone, to the point of including leftovers from the PS4 version. This is also how people managed to disable the toon shader in Mega39's on the first day after release, as well as bring the new songs back into Future Tone the day after that.

[Red Hot Jack]

14 hours ago, Styx_Linoone said:

What we need is fresh, new writers for the story and not memelord cringe-worthy Pontaff & Graff. Seriously, I haven't been able to enjoy the current Sonic games in comparison to Shiro Maekawa's stories from the Adventure era. I think it's fair to say I grew up playing those games because they were fun and didn't force me to quit my game because of bad writing.

About Sonic's voice. Yes, I know Roger has been doing Sonic for a decade now, at least, but I think it's about time we introduce Ben Schwartz into the games and bring in the aforementioned paragraph above in combination to make a fresh new experience.

Are we going to see nostalgia in the 2021 game? Yes? No? Maybe? The only thing holding the blue blur back this past decade post-Colors was the massive influence on nostalgia, shoehorning Green Hill Zone into our faces in every mainline game (Generations was an exception). I want them to experiment, show us something new, then we have our thoughts.

1. Agreed about Pontaff. It's true that it's mostly SEGA who makes the decisions for story and everything, but Pontaff have no idea what they are doing with Sonic too, see: Lost World. Plus I really don't find their jokes funny, see: everything but mostly the Boom games they wrote, that Boom episode, etc.

2. Ben Schwartz is perfect as Sonic but he costs a lot I think. Just ditch Roger for a more appropriate voice that's not famous maybe?

3. I mean, it's gonna be the 30th anniversary game, man, of course there will be nostalgia. 

I also know that we are basically getting games only for anniversaries, that's what happened in the last decade lol

Spin-offs + main games on big anniversaries.

The question is... which nostalgia it is, Adventure or Classic or Modern? Or everything?  No idea. 

From what I understood in the reddit AMA from the brand producer... they want to focus on new things as well as nostalgia, so both of them. Old and new together. And this is why I doubt we are getting a full Sonic Adventure remake lol, it's gonna be a brand new game with old elements. Or that's what I think.

[expansivelovestories]

On 5/26/2020 at 5:40 AM, Jack at Home said:

I don't know. Part of me that would say "it means Sonic is part of the panel" is my obvious hope. But I frankly don't know. I don't get why they would use Sonic as face of the gaming event, especially if he's not part of it. 

I am aware we are questioning too much, when in reality we should just wait.

Btw, it's the second time IGN uses a Sonic icon to promote this event, last time it was Modern Sonic in a scene from Forces...

Yes; it seems at least plausible to me that one or a few of the announcements planned for SxSW have been moved to this event!

something was ready to announce both in March and April; i think they did really delay the announcement due to the eventual release being shifted, but, simultaneously they may have found out about this ign event and saw that it would be a logical later time to announce! 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Look, if Sega wants to keep mixing in “old” elements with the new, I’m fine with it if it’s done right. For all of Forces’ faults, one thing I appreciated was that when it brought back Green Hill and Chemical Plant, it treated them more like returning locations than levels. New music, new environmental effects, etcetera. If we go back to the same resort as Emerald Coast, but the level and music are different, then it doesn’t really feel like retreading old ground. 

[Red Hot Jack]

48 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Look, if Sega wants to keep mixing in “old” elements with the new, I’m fine with it if it’s done right. For all of Forces’ faults, one thing I appreciated was that when it brought back Green Hill and Chemical Plant, it treated them more like returning locations than levels. New music, new environmental effects, etcetera. If we go back to the same resort as Emerald Coast, but the level and music are different, then it doesn’t really feel like retreading old ground. 

This is what I'm saying, same for Mania, and Forces' ideas at least. I like that mentality, we are probably the only ones who don't mind Green Hill and Chemical Plant abundance, even though they are literally everywhere. At least they felt twisted to the point they looked sort of new, different. Now Sega... obviously, you have to take your time to make decent level design, graphics and music... *stares at Forces with regret* ideas aren't enough.

So yeah, screw remade level design, at least give me new stages! Even with reimagined zones, I just want to play in new level design and with some new ideas. And that's why I wouldn't want any official Sonic remakes.

As for the announcements... I thought with "Sonic 2020", the panel in March, the IGN gaming event, everything led up to some kind of reveal, no idea what but still sort of big deal, then Aaron came in to say "lower your epectations, fans" and now I'm confused...

[Drisaac]

If there's one thing a lot of people seem to agree on is that Sonic Team do actually have good intentions for Sonic and they really want to make good games, but working with SEGA breathing on your neck constantly seems to be sabotaging them at every opportunity.

 

The way i see it is that SEGA needs to make a decision: they either choose to make their investors happy or give the actual time and money to ST to make a good game, it's clear that they cannot do both things.

[Styx_Linoone]

Most of their budget seems to go on marketing, I believe.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

According to famitsu, there's supposed to be a very big SEGA announcement coming soon. Some rumors are that SEGA is making another console (doubt it personally) but if it isn't that, I wonder what it could be. Edit: this is a Nintendolife link, got lazy. 

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2020/05/tech_journalist_teases_revolutionary_scoop_in_next_weeks_famitsu_possibly_concerning_sega

 

Maybe it could be that SEGA/Microsoft collaboration we heard about a few years back. I kind of expected something to pan out from the meetings that were apparently had so maybe this is related to that? 

Other than that, no idea. 

[Plasme]

There's absolutely no way SEGA are making a new console.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

4 minutes ago, Plasme said:

There's absolutely no way SEGA are making a new console.

Yeah, I can't see that either. However, I'm trying to think of what else could be an announcement of that magnitude? No Sonic game alone could be that big an announcement. It must be something else. 

[Plasme]

Just now, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Yeah, I can't see that either. However, I'm trying to think of what else could be an announcement of that magnitude? No Sonic game alone could be that big an announcement. It must be something else. 

Sonic Adventure 3 am I right?  

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 minute ago, Plasme said:

Sonic Adventure 3 am I right?  

Even the fabled Sonic adventure 4 would not be that hyped. You know, since clearly there's been a 3 already back in 2006...

But seriously, it has to be more than a Sonic game. 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

If it is just a Sonic game, yet also some kind of monumental announcement, then it would have to be Sonic Adventure 3. In other words, it definitely isn’t Sonic-related  

[User18091994]

On 5/27/2020 at 7:57 PM, Tracker_TD said:

This is true, but you also haven't backed up your claims; so given Sonic Team weren't anywhere near Project DIVA Mega Mix, I feel fairly confident that it's still running on AM2's engine. 

I may be wrong about Project Diva, I only remember reading about it some months ago. I didn't research again before posting my reply and I'm searching now to give the source to you, but I can't find. So, maybe this is not reliable information...

But, I remember reading here and Sonic Stadium Forum and other Sonic-related forums that nowadays probably there's no "Sonic Team" anymore, only the brand but not a fixed development team in Sega studios. Also, Sega AM2 doesn't exist anymore, not even the brand.

 

On 5/28/2020 at 4:03 AM, Blue Blood said:

I've searched for both Project DIVA and PSO2 Hedgehog Engine claims and can't find anything except public Wikis with no sources and various forum posts where people say "this game pretty so it must be using the Hedgehog Engine".

So again, sources please.  

I play PSO2 for years and everybody in the fanbase says the game uses Hedgehog Engine. I remember reading about it in some wiki, too. But, yeah, this is information might be wrong. I haven't check the sources.

 

[Blue Blood]

@Raphael Martins Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, Sonic Team as a specific entity is a bit of a legacy and misnomer these days. You only have to look at the credits of Unleashed through Forces to see how inconsistent the team is. Even when you look at the handheld titles and games like Unleashed Wii, Sonic Team always gets top billing when in actuality the development teams are mostly made up of Dimps employees. Dimps' name only ever appears in the closing credits. You could argue that that's to save face after Dimps lost a lot of good faith in the Sonic community recently, but until S4E1 rolled around they were actually the ones dishing out the good Sonic games.

Anyways, this what led to the whole "storybook team and main game team" confusion a few years ago. Iizuka is producer for the Sonic brand as a whole and some staff seem to constantly work on Sonic projects (like Kishimoto... unfortunately), but on the whole staff seem to cycle around a lot. Runners was supposedly made by Sonic Team, although the credits revealed it was mostly former SEGA Sports R&D staff IIRC, the guys who make the Olympics series. Any Sonic game made internally at SEGA is labelled "Sonic Team". 

 

[Jango]

18 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

According to famitsu, there's supposed to be a very big SEGA announcement coming soon. Some rumors are that SEGA is making another console (doubt it personally) but if it isn't that, I wonder what it could be. Edit: this is a Nintendolife link, got lazy. 

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2020/05/tech_journalist_teases_revolutionary_scoop_in_next_weeks_famitsu_possibly_concerning_sega

 

Maybe it could be that SEGA/Microsoft collaboration we heard about a few years back. I kind of expected something to pan out from the meetings that were apparently had so maybe this is related to that? 

Other than that, no idea. 

The Gematsu article is calling this SEGA related thing "revolutionary" and that it "will rile up the game industry".

SEGA!!!!!!???? Like, our SEGA? SEGA. I'm curious as fuck right now.

Dreamcast 2, you play games with YOUR MIND. Remember. It's thinking.

[Drisaac]

Going back to the topic of the next game there's something i want to add in that regard.

 

I'm also starting to buy into the theory that perhaps Sonic Forces was meant to be the last boost game ever developed, in the hope that perhaps Sonic Team has realized that developing games for said formula takes too long and it's not suitable if you want to develop a long enough game, so i hope that the next title takes more inspiration from the adventure titles, especially in their gameplay and physics.

[expansivelovestories]

1 hour ago, Jango said:

The Gematsu article is calling this SEGA related thing "revolutionary" and that it "will rile up the game industry".

SEGA!!!!!!???? Like, our SEGA? SEGA. I'm curious as fuck right now.

Dreamcast 2, you play games with YOUR MIND. Remember. It's thinking.

Yes; I wonder if they have considered some type of specialty console?  For retro and quasi-retro releases there are some options, usually Switch, but i could see SEGA realizing there is a fairly huge opening to make a console especially for retro developers!!  

A basic example would be: 16bit graphics and audio chips accessible by a present-day CPU?  I am not sure that would work , but the idea is that the graphics and audio wouldn't be merely emulated, yet the processes running could be very different from the original Genesis' capabilities; such as online play, as well as the programming and memory/space used by the games! 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

4 hours ago, Drisaac said:

 

I'm also starting to buy into the theory that perhaps Sonic Forces was meant to be the last boost game ever developed, in the hope that perhaps Sonic Team has realized that developing games for said formula takes too long and it's not suitable if you want to develop a long enough game, so i hope that the next title takes more inspiration from the adventure titles, especially in their gameplay and physics.

The problem with this theory is that Takashi Iizuka had already reached this point with the boost formula 7 years ago. I posted it somewhere in this thread IIRC a few weeks back but in an interview after Sonic Generations he stated directly that Sonic Team had already wanted to move on and try something different for numerous reasons, one being that they'd felt they had already exhausted its potential. In fact that was the entire point of sonic lost world's direction, they wanted a new foundation for 3D Sonic and that was a testing ground. (too bad they released it on a failing platform). 

Yet despite this they went back to it anyway. So what happened? Well, Boom happened. IMO I think Forces was an attempt at damage control because they didn't have a ready made formula to try something new for 3D Sonic after that disaster.

 

Beyond that it's hard to say much. We'll have to wait for more info. I really think we'll know something of substance within the summer time frame. I don't know if we'll get a full reveal or not but something will come out. 

 

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

Also id like to say this for people who are using the boost games development limitations as a way of clamoring for a return to the adventure games: the adventure games have the exact same problem! Why do you think the alternative gameplay formulas were created in the first place? Going back to that formula isn't going to make 3D sonic development any better than it was for generations. 

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/retro-gamer/20181228/281659666135596

http://info.sonicretro.org/Yuji_Naka_interview_by_Sega_Saturn_Magazine_(October_8,_1998)

3D Sonic has always had this problem. Becauae Sonic gameplay has always been thought of in 2D context rather than 3D, the developers try to make these huge, linear levels that can easily be blasted through in a few minutes. Mario realized this wasn't going to work for a full modern experience back in 1996 and he adapted. Sonic didn't and that's why the series still struggles with the same problem of making a game with only a few hours of actual Sonic content stuffed with undercooked alternative gameplay padding, to lengthen the games. Until they truly adapt Sonic to 3D it won't be fixed, it's the same thing over and over. So just clamoring that we need to return to adventure and everything will be fixed is misguided at best... . And this coming from a big SA1 fan who thinks we didn't see its full potential. 

 

[Wraith]

2D Sonic levels can also be blasted through in a few minutes with even the longest  games as a whole having very short runtimes. Actually adapting the classics to 3D won't even fix this problem. It's a problem inherent to Sonic's design, 2D or 3D. 

The only solution to this problem is to stop considering it a problem in the first place. 

 

Accept that you're making a shorter, more replayable experience and focus on that. I can understand Sonic Team felt that a longer runtime was necessary to be competitive, but they're clearly beyond that mentality, so let's throw padding out the window altogether and just make the time you do spend with the player bliss. 

[Tracker_TD]

17 hours ago, Raphael Martins said:

But, I remember reading here and Sonic Stadium Forum and other Sonic-related forums that nowadays probably there's no "Sonic Team" anymore, only the brand but not a fixed development team in Sega studios. Also, Sega AM2 doesn't exist anymore, not even the brand

Literally the first image released of DIVA Megamix has the AM2 branding well and present.

They developed Project DIVA Megamix (which as already mentioned, is a straight port of the PS4's arcade port; both of which they also developed). It was developed on AM2's VF5 engine if memory serves, and the AC and PS4 versions include songs based on AM2 titles, with After Burner even using assets straight from AM2's After Burner Climax. Besides Miku, AM2 were also responsible for SEGA's recent AC title Soul Reverse.

What I'm trying to say is; nah. 

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

2D Sonic levels can also be blasted through in a few minutes with even the longest  games as a whole having very short runtimes. Actually adapting the classics to 3D won't even fix this problem. It's a problem inherent to Sonic's design, 2D or 3D. 

The only solution to this problem is to stop considering it a problem in the first place. 

 

Accept that you're making a shorter, more replayable experience and focus on that. I can understand Sonic Team felt that a longer runtime was necessary to be competitive, but they're clearly beyond that mentality, so let's throw padding out the window altogether and just make the time you do spend with the player bliss. 

I remember a big complaint about Generations was how short it was for the price that it came with, despite how good the game was. 

I'm not saying you're wrong because I do agree actually, but it is a thing to consider.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

2D Sonic levels can also be blasted through in a few minutes with even the longest  games as a whole having very short runtimes. Actually adapting the classics to 3D won't even fix this problem. It's a problem inherent to Sonic's design, 2D or 3D. 

The only solution to this problem is to stop considering it a problem in the first place. 

 

Accept that you're making a shorter, more replayable experience and focus on that. I can understand Sonic Team felt that a longer runtime was necessary to be competitive, but they're clearly beyond that mentality, so let's throw padding out the window altogether and just make the time you do spend with the player bliss. 

You're preaching to the choir. This is part of what has been stated over and over again. Yes it is an inherent problem with the sonic formula from a development perspective. The formula was created to be a mass market, AAA series and it did not adapt enough to do so after the Genesis era. In the Genesis Era, games like Sonic 2 were cutting edge but in the dawn of the 3D Era, the industry grew enormously and so did consumer expectations. So SEGA really only had two choices to make with Sonic: continue to make similar content at a discounted price for fans of that style (which nobody thought was the right thing to do) or try do mold the formula into something that could maintain AAA status. Sonic Team has obviously chosen the latter and I don't blame them, it's what Sonic was created for: to be the flagship of a brand with universal sales appeal. Sonic is still very capable of being a flagship character with very high popularity so the fact that they want to continue that goal is not unreasonable at all. But you have to stop trying to design 3D Sonic like 2D sonic. Instead do what Mario did: find the essence of the things people liked in 2D and create an entirely new gameplay context with it. Mario changed from being a linear A to B platformer, to an open world collectathon. Sonic is going to have to make a change of that magnitude, in some fashion, one way or another. Employ the classic physics and feel of the games but give Sonic something bigger to chew on. 

 

In the alternative where Sonic is not given huge budgets, you're probably going to get more games like Forces (where there are only 3 level designers and can easily be beaten in one sitting) and less games like Sonic Adventure. You really have to think about this carefully. Sonic Adventure was not a game just for Sonic fans, it was meant to help sell a system and be the face of the newest console generation. Correspondingly it was given a massive budget. If you want games like that to be made with that level of ambition, its going to come with a cost. If Sonic Team decides to make a game like SA1 but mostly Sonic stages instead of the extra fluff (which is what a lot of fans want) , it would take a long time to make and require a large staff, as pointed out many times by Yuji Naka and Co. Frankly, investors aren't going to shell out for a game like that unless it's meant to be something they get a huge return on. Which brings us back to square one. Mainline Sonic titles need to be something of more substance than 2-3 hours in 2021. You have to think about how to retool the formula  in order to reach that goal. In the past 20 years the answer has been to stuff the game with things like mechs, the werehog, etc. I think it's obviously time to try a new path that doesn't rely on those undercooked gimmicks. 

 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

The solution to the length issue is the Chao system. Having these cute, addictive, endlessly experimental virtual pets is what kept everyone playing SA2 for so long. We need the Chao back, badly.