Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[Razule]

5 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

I mean they weren't in Unleashed either, that supposedly takes place on human world.

Well then.. the only real conclusion we can come to on this matter is.. that the canon is irreparably broken and nothing make sense

[Shaddy Zaphod]

And thus, we ignore any of this "two worlds" bullshit until the games try to make it a thing. I rest my case.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I'm not too worried about what Sonic Team considers canon, because they or Sonic as we know him, might have nothing to do with the next game. 

[Celestia]

Gonna make a wild guess that GUN hasn't been mentioned because it isn't exactly a popular concept.

[dbzfan7]

1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

And thus, we ignore any of this "two worlds" bullshit until the games try to make it a thing. I rest my case.

Basically what I'm doing. If they don't mention it in the series itself, then I take it with a grain of salt at best.

[Shadowlax]

14 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Gonna make a wild guess that GUN hasn't been mentioned because it isn't exactly a popular concept.

Yeah, sega kept trying to make gun a thing, but no one wanted to be a thing. TBH team dark is in a similar boat, both team dark and GUN are kinda only relevant concepts because of the shadow part. And if he's not around, who cares. 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

38 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Honestly makes sense. Might've even seen the Eggman on the mural as himself, and viewed it depicting him creating Shadow (rather than his future grandson fighting Sonic).

Even 50 years in the past the Robotnik ego was alive and strong.

[GuyWithThePie]

I really don't get the whole "two worlds" thing they're trying to push here. Why can't they just make it so that both humans and anthropomorphic creatures coexist on different parts of the world?

Super Mario Odyssey did something like this with the Metro Kingdom, which did raise a few eyebrows at first, but most came to accept it as "Yeah, realistic cities and humans exist in Mario's otherwise wacky world". And a concept like the Metro Kingdom wouldn't seem too out of place in Mario's world anyway, being a country composed entirely of gigantic "skyscrapers" with normal-sized cities at the top. Similar to how Unleashed has its own wacky counterparts to our real-world locations, filled with springs, loop-de-loops and rings.

Obviously Sonic has more story and continuity than Mario and can't get away with things like inconsistent art styles so easily, but I really don't see the problem with just putting humans and anthros on the same world. Unleashed perfected the human aspect with its Pixar-styled humans and stylized real-world locations, they should've just kept building on that instead of throwing it all away.

[Dejimon11]

Ok so ever since the day the game was announced I've been skeptical about it. Leading up to it's release I was getting a lot of red flags and I got a guy feeling there's something wrong with this game. Didn't help that the marketing has been pretty lack luster. But besides all that I didn't want the game to be bad and after playing it hoo boy I am disappointed in this game.Let me start with somethings I did like.

Modern Sonic is actually the best character to play as in this game. The levels pretty much feel like Sonic Colors minus how dumb/gimmicky some of the levels were in that game. I'm still annoyed that despite working them working on this gameplay for nearly 10 year Modern still isn't fully 3D yet and they still have to rely on the over abundance on 2D. Also why did they remove the drift? It's not a total loss but it would of made the city level as modern a lot more bearable since i kept falling of the stage when I kept turning. Not great but still needs work on if they still continue this problem then it's best that they just ditch the boost formula and do something else.

The music maybe hit and miss but there are some songs I really did some of the songs. I'm kinda bummed out that there's no sound test in this game(as far as I'm aware atm) because I probably would of spent most of my time listening to some of the songs I liked.

And now that I've gotten the positives out of the way let's get into everything else

Classic Sonic really felt like an after thought and I'm baffled as to why they even bothered trying to tie in this game and Mania. It doesn't even help that I've been playing nothing but Mania for the past month he absolutely sucks in this game. The controls and physics are terrible and his levels are lacking heart and soul. I don't want to come off as rude but these levels come off more as a fan game that was trying to homage to the genesis era games rather than a game made by professional game developers. 

The Avatar also sucks. I really did not like playing as him. I can't tell if he's too lose or too stiff but he controls like ass. This wouldn't have been a problem if it wasn't the main selling point of the game. And then when it comes to platforming with this guy it really sucks. When making a jump I think I'm gonna make it but for some reason I just go and miss it and it's annoying as hell it's even worse if I fall down a bottomless pit. IDK maybe I'm missing something and playing Odyssey and Mania thought me I have to be precise when it it comes to platforming. I will say it is actually pretty interesting that some wispons are actually better than others in certain stages so it does encourage replay value if you want to get a better ranking...that is if you want to actually replay these levels if you didn't like them.

The boss fights are pretty whatever as well. I think the only boss fights I actually found to be ok was the Zavok boss fight and the first Infinite battle but besides that it's whatever. Also what the hell was the point of hyping up Shadow and Chaos if you didn't even get to fight as them in the first place? And why do they have to keep reusing the sonic colors final boss fight? I got annoyed when they did it with Lost World and I got annoyed when they did it here even if it was the last phase of the fight.

And then there's the story. I'll give them credit for actually trying to tell a story again this time but to bad this story was pretty awful. They didn't show how Eggman took over the world it was just explained through text. Tails game off as a little wuss(I'm trying to be polite here) and it's really sad that he only has to rely on sonic whenever it comes to doing anything  and how he was just praising Classic Sonic the whole time. Sonic was captured by and apparently tortured for 6 months but really he didn't act like somebody who was suffering or anything like that. Infinite was a big disappointment, I'll give credit for the game for not having him betray Eggman and being loyal till the end but he just disappears after the final boss. He has no closure especially when they confirmed that he used to be an animal before Eggman turned him evil so what the hell? Speaking of the doctor he really didn't have a single word of dialogue during the final boss fight and we don't even know what happens to him at the end of the game. The game just suddenly ends with you saving the world and that's it. 

I honestly get why this game was $40 now instead of being at full retailed price. Overall this game is pretty mediocre and really disappointed me , If I were to give it a ranking I would give it a D. This was the game that was in development for 4 years and when we just got another 3D platformer that came out last week that was in development for just as long and it's a strong contender for game of the year it makes you wonder what exactly happened during this games development. Just don't bother with this game guys and even if you're remotely interested in this game then please don't get it now wait for when it's cheaper. Better luck next time Sonic Team I guess. 

[Roger_van_der_weide]

3 hours ago, Super Mechanio said:

According to Iizuka, they're "on the human world." Since Sonic takes place on two different worlds now.

So GUN isn't in Forces because that's that's the non-human world.
Classic Sonic enters Sonic Forces' world from Mania's dimension, so that would be the second world.
So Sonic Mania takes place in the human world. So GUN should show up in Sonic Mania.
Ahahahaha. I can hear the screams of fan agony in the distance already.

The only 2 worlds where Sonic takes place in is in Iizuka's mind and the incomprehensible mess we're stuck with in the real world.

(Also, kinda funny how iizuka brought up that theory for Sonic Colors, the one game where it doesn't MATTER if it takes place in the human or anthro world since they go to space anyway)
 

5 hours ago, Razule said:

Makes the "it's just the first level" defense kinda funny in retrospect..

Jup, a lot of levels in Forces feel like the first level.
Sonic Team just saw that Youtube video about that only the first level of any Sonic game is good, so decided to make the entire game out of first levels.
See? They do listen to advice and complaints. Just in a very Sonic Team esque way.

[Razule]

38 minutes ago, GuyWithThePie said:

I really don't get the whole "two worlds" thing they're trying to push here. Why can't they just make it so that both humans and anthropomorphic creatures coexist on different parts of the world?

Super Mario Odyssey did something like this with the Metro Kingdom, which did raise a few eyebrows at first, but most came to accept it as "Yeah, realistic cities and humans exist in Mario's otherwise wacky world". And a concept like the Metro Kingdom wouldn't seem too out of place in Mario's world anyway, being a country composed entirely of gigantic "skyscrapers" with normal-sized cities at the top. Similar to how Unleashed has its own wacky counterparts to our real-world locations, filled with loop-de-loop highways and rings.

Obviously Sonic has more story and continuity than Mario and can't get away with things like inconsistent art styles so easily, but I really don't see the problem with just putting humans and anthros on the same world. Unleashed perfected the human aspect with its Pixar-styled humans and stylized real-world locations, they should've just kept building on that instead of throwing it all away.

Judging by the questions that led to Iizuka saying that, I'd guess that they decided that Sonic people and humans existing on the same planet was too difficult for people to grasp.

Perhaps they're aware that people's perceptions of Sonic's world have been shaped by the various western cartoons and Sonic X, and they tried to reconcile it (much like Robotnik and chili dogs) but in a half-assed way because they know it doesn't really fit the world as it already was and outright saying it in-game would raise too many questions and contradict events in previous games (like a certain other retcon introduced in Forces).

[MysteriousGirl 92]

1 hour ago, Dejimon11 said:

Tails game off as a little wuss(I'm trying to be polite here) and it's really sad that he only has to rely on sonic whenever it comes to doing anything  and how he was just praising Classic Sonic the whole time. Sonic was captured by and apparently tortured for 6 months but really he didn't act like somebody who was suffering or anything like that.

Yeah, Tails asked a 'dead' Sonic to come and save him. Really? And yes, Sonic should have had something to indicate that the torture has affected him.

[StaticMania]

Perhaps Tails was more messed up than we thought. Asking for Sonic's help even though he thinks Sonic is dead, true signs of being cloud cuckoo. No wonder he immediately attaches to Classic Sonic.

[MysteriousGirl 92]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Asking for Sonic's help even though he thinks Sonic is dead, true signs of being cloud cuckoo. No wonder he immediately attaches to Classic Sonic.

Tails has potential too, right? He shouldn't have to depend on Sonic, ANY Sonic, so much. I know the game is called Sonic Forces, but what about Tails wanting to do more things for himself and others? "No, we can't have that in this game. Sonic is the star, so he should do all the hard work". The writers might as well use the motto "Sonic does all the hard work, so you don't have to". 

[KHCast]

5 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Perhaps Tails was more messed up than we thought. Asking for Sonic's help even though he thinks Sonic is dead, true signs of being cloud cuckoo. No wonder he immediately attaches to Classic Sonic.

So tails is the crazy one while sonic, who's been tortured for 6 months, comes out perfectly fine, cocky, and confident. Makes sense.

[MysteriousGirl 92]

9 minutes ago, KHCast said:

So tails is the crazy one while sonic, who's been tortured for 6 months, comes out perfectly fine, cocky, and confident. Makes sense.

While it does make sense for Tails to lose a little confidence, he should grow up a little without him (like he did in Sonic Chronicles. Was that game canon?). Sonic should have lost a bit of his confidence at least. But no, Sonic showing any signs of weakness is inappropriate.

And what he said to the Avatar (in flashback) was a bit... I can't find the right word for it. "Don't be scared"? Really? People have a right to be scared, Sonic. Even you. You should have said, "I know you're scared and I know it won't be easy, but right now we need the courage and the strength to fight. You can do this, you can win this fight. I believe in you, we all believe in you. You just need to believe in yourself."

Yes, I know he's Sonic and he doesn't say much, but the writers could have at least given Sonic some encouraging words to say to the person joining the fight.

[Salamander]

On another subject entirely, are there thirty different Wispons, as that PSN Trophy indicated?  Or can you just collect multiple or something?

[Dash Speed]

I don't want Shadow affiliated with GUN anymore, he's to loner based and has ambiguous moral limits which a goverment position for him would ruin him. I am also sick of ROuge giving the orders because she really doesn't have control over his decisions at the end of the day, plus I would see Shadow as being to egotistical and active to be ordered around, he's kinda like Sonic in that respect.

GUN plots in the comic do nothing but just throw Shadow and Rouge and Omega under the bus because the writer doesn't like them or he has no idea what to imaginatively do with them.

[mayday2592]

1 hour ago, FFWF said:

On another subject entirely, are there thirty different Wispons, as that PSN Trophy indicated?  Or can you just collect multiple or something?

Based on what I saw on the stream,  it looks like you unlock the same weapons with different perks like bonus rings when you use them.  I might be wrong since i wasnt really paying attention, but after seeing how rushed and sloppy this game is, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

[speedfreak]

The torture was Eggman eating a chili dog in front of Sonic's cell every night and not sharing.

[Salamander]

34 minutes ago, mayday2592 said:

Based on what I saw on the stream,  it looks like you unlock the same weapons with different perks like bonus rings when you use them.  I might be wrong since i wasnt really paying attention, but after seeing how rushed and sloppy this game is, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

That's a shame.  Granted, it would have been a bit surprising if out of everything they cut corners on they managed to make a whole bunch of different Wispons, but it's not too hard to come up with new ideas for them.  ...Wispons are an idea I like on paper.  I think it's interesting to come up with new applications for each Wisp, and it actually does something different and fresh with the whole concept.  But in execution, I don't think they fit Sonic gameplay at all; in a combat-light genre, all the developers can do is line up Egg Pawns like bowling pins for you to knock over with no effort.

[Gabz Girl]

This two worlds thing with Sonic is some ol’ BS. Why can’t they just have humans and anthros living together on the same planet but on separate continents or something? 

I hate to compare again, but look at Super Mario Odyssey. There’s a Metro Kingdom on Mario’s planet where humans live! Yes they’re realistic looking which is jarring as all hell, but that’s the whole point! They’re wacky worlds!

If Sonic Team wants to add humans again without fans complaining about them looking realistic, make them look cartoony like the ones in Sonic Unleashed. This way they won’t look out of place like the ones in Sonic 06. It’s not that hard! 

Two worlds...ugh.

[Meta77]

Well the point of 06 was to place sonic in a more mature realistic tone. That's why you had Mario metro type humans in it compared to the super deformed cartoon humans in unleashed but Sega doesn't know how to I'mpliment ideas now like that it seems

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Even if it was the point of 06 it was a dumb point. They tried to make Sonic and co. blend in with humans when they should have done the reverse.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

I don't want Shadow affiliated with GUN anymore, he's to loner based and has ambiguous moral limits which a goverment position for him would ruin him. I am also sick of ROuge giving the orders because she really doesn't have control over his decisions at the end of the day, plus I would see Shadow as being to egotistical and active to be ordered around, he's kinda like Sonic in that respect.

Is he a loner? He's constantly accompanied by a team, even with GUN removed from the equation. He's ostensibly friends with his teammates, though the games take a very "tell, don't show" approach to these friendships and we never really see much evidence of genuine camaraderie between them.

He isn't really morally ambiguous either. He was outright villainous for most of SA2, and then he underwent a complete heel-face turn and is an unambiguous hero now. At best, he was "ambiguous" during the Heroes-Shadow stint, where they gave him amnesia; a bad decision, in most peoples' opinion. Like, despite the edgy attitude and dark motifs, I wouldn't even call him an antihero. He fights bad guys and saves people, and does it in a very morally unambiguous manner. Just because he's grumpier than Sonic doesn't mean he has ambiguous morality.

I guess the Boom version of Shadow is a loner, though; He thinks friends are pathetic (or at least, Sonic's friends). Of course, even he's not morally ambiguous, and was bizarrely written as an outright villain - albeit one without much of a motive other than hating Sonic.