Will you continue to support Modern Sonic if Forces is poorly recieved?

[Mad Convoy]

2 hours ago, ShroomZed said:

Nearly every time I've heard "we've been through worse" or "it's not the worst thing ever", it's always by people who have no real argument of why they like it so they go straight to that in vein. And I'm sick and bloody tired of hearing the "it's not the worst thing ever" shit, it honestly seems like a pretty hopeless thing to say every time I hear it, and it's terrible. Maybe I don't want to play games that "aren't the worst thing ever". That's why I say it's something that people that have given up said since it seems that's all they have. 

And I never said Forces would end the franchise so I don't know where that's coming from. I just think it's a shit argument that comes from desperation. If you take me saying it's a shit argument (because it IS) as a personal attack on you and your friends then that's on you. Like whatever you want, do you think I honestly care very much if you like Boom or Forces or not? I just get pissed when I see these phrases thrown around basically as an excuse to fix nothing because "lel could be worse". Maybe not everyone means it like that but that's how I most often see it. 

My apologies that I upset you, however, I think you completely missed the point.

Well, when you were defending the "we've been through worse." line, which is most commonly used when people try to point out that, well, the franchise has survived worse and so Forces probably will not end the franchise. Nobody's forcing you to play Forces or anything like that. Its also for some perspective on the matter, given how some people really think this is the second coming of Sonic 06 and that truly is going to be all shit from here on out-- which is a way overblown reaction. And its usually said alongside other things.

And also, you didn't say it was a shit argument. You said this:

4 hours ago, ShroomZed said:

I guess we should make unremarkable pigshit forever because "we've been through worse". People who say that have given up. 

Again, it was perhaps not your intent, but it comes off like a passive aggressive way of saying that you very much do care if I or anybody likes Forces. Because I care about Forces, think and know that it very well could be worse without saying it, you sarcastically say that we should make unremarkable pigshit forever in a manner that implies that this is the logical conclusion of the argument when its really just a strawman. You've also cast a judgement upon all who use that argument as having given up, when that is not only not true but a stereotype that has been used to hurt me in the past. Using hurtful stereotypes is again another reason to think that you take it personally when people try to defend Forces.

If you had just said that the argument made you angry without casting any judgements and sounding defeatist, then I would not have felt so deeply insulted. Instead, you took the route of acting passive aggressive in expressing this, which completely eclipsed your point and made you come off as accusatory in the most cowardly way. I am taking this all from your original statement, which you made before mine. You are a responsible adult, and so are completely responsible for what you choose to say in public. It was your choice to suggest "we should make unremarkable pigshit forever" and "People who say that have given up," just as it was my choice to express to you how its wording hurt my feelings, just as it was your choice to reply with great anger as well as not being entirely honest about what you originally posted to dismiss me. I am only responsible for my posts. The rest is on you.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Mad Convoy
EDIT: Got waaaaayyyyy too personal. Sorry guys. :(

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

Just now, Mad Convoy said:

My apologies that I upset you, however, I think you completely missed the point.

Well, when you were defending the "we've been through worse." line, which is most commonly used when people try to point out that, well, the franchise has survived worse and so Forces probably will not end the franchise. Nobody's forcing you to play Forces or anything like that. Its also for some perspective on the matter, given how some people really think this is the second coming of Sonic 06 and that truly is going to be all shit from here on out-- which is a way overblown reaction. And its usually said alongside other things.

And also, you didn't say it was a shit argument. You said this:

Again, it was perhaps not your intent, but it comes off like a passive aggressive way of saying that you very much do care if I or anybody likes Forces. Because I care about Forces, think and know that it very well could be worse without saying it, you sarcastically say that we should make unremarkable pigshit forever in a manner that implies that this is the logical conclusion of the argument when its really just a strawman. You've also cast a judgement upon all who use that argument as having given up, when that is not only not true but a stereotype that has been used to hurt me in the past. Using hurtful stereotypes is again another reason to think that you take it personally when people try to defend Forces.

If you had just said that the argument made you angry without casting any judgements and sounding defeatist, then I would not have felt so deeply insulted. Instead, you took the route of acting passive aggressive in expressing this, which completely eclipsed your point and made you come off as accusatory in the most cowardly way. I am taking this all from your original statement, which you made before mine. You are a responsible adult, and so are completely responsible for what you choose to say in public. It was your choice to suggest "we should make unremarkable pigshit forever" and "People who say that have given up," just as it was my choice to express to you how its wording hurt my feelings, just as it was your choice to reply with great anger as well as not being entirely honest about what you originally posted to dismiss me. I am only responsible for my posts. The rest is on you.

Or to put it in perspective: How would you feel if you'd been mistreated for a year by somebody you trust? Every time you tried to criticize something you hate they'd leave a passive aggressive insult or mock you or otherwise be really cruel. You learn that everything they've said, from the politeness to the insults claimed as jokes or satires, was a cover for some sort of vendetta against you for disagreeing with him. You finally get out of there and try to move on. But you just see that same attitude pop up again and again, and you know from experience that there's a possibility that its just a cover to hurt you or manipulate you. One that you don't want to risk, and that breaks your heart because you trusted these people too. And then one post just crosses the line. That makes you tired of being passive aggressively insulted for so long.

That's how your post made me feel. It's not a choice of mine to feel hurt and saddened by it. No amount of thick skin or coping will make me not feel hurt and saddened by it. I've also been in some PM conservations with people, and I know I'm not the only person who feels hurt by posts like that. So me thinking that you've personally insulted me and my friends isn't on me. I hope that you hold yourself accountable for that so we can move on satisfied and happy.

Quote

Nobody's forcing you to play Forces

You should be banned and never enter any Sonic fourms again...

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

From what I can tell, @ShroomZed's harshness is mostly directed at arguments rather than people and isn't intended to be personal, but that being said, the delivery and how he made his points was still too aggressive and could definitely stand for being toned down - be less snide and avoid making assumptions of other people. And quoting someone and saying "Fuck that argument" is still pretty excessive to begin with; even if it's only addressing the argument itself, the harshness is such that it's very easy to see why others might have a hard time not feeling demeaned. Really, try to calm down and think of ways to put your arguments that aren't as aggressive. We don't monitor people's specific rhetorical styles too closely here as long as people aren't being insulting towards others, but I think your aggression towards arguments, assumption-making, and sarcasm is such that it's easy for it to feel insulting even if it's not the intent, and it's enough to be bothersome already. Especially since this is after you've gotten a suspension for these tendencies. There's no absolute standard for when rhetorical aggression becomes too much, but suffice it to say you're skirting unsafe territory now.

However, I have to speak to @Mad Convoy too. Honestly, I do feel like what you're doing is a bit unfair. How you've been treated in the past has nothing to do with ShroomZed. He can't be held accountable for how you feel when half the reason you feel that way is because of someone else. I'm not saying you can help how you feel, or even that you did anything wrong exactly. But you're very openly making this personal and bringing up past experiences that aren't equivalent to what's at hand. I just...don't really think that's a good idea. Respond just to the actual argument at hand, don't bring in personal reasons why a person's post or argument feels especially bad to you when others can't really be held accountable for that. I'm sorry you've been hurt in the past, certainly. But overall, how personal this is to you seems to be coloring the way you look at things too much and make you take things personally when they're not intended that way. I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I already acknowledged that ShroomZed needs to majorly change his tone, but I have to say you are making this a lot more personal than it is, and for your own sake I think you need to be careful of that. If you want to talk about how you feel or have been hurt, maybe it's best to do that in the Express Your Emotions thread and not in a public thread about simply discussing Sonic games. Not trying to make this a bigger deal than it already is or to make you feel worse, though.

One last thing, this one for @Jar Jar Analysis 1138:

2 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

You should be banned and never enter any Sonic fourms again...

??? What the heck? Why would you even think saying someone should be banned and never go to Sonic forums is an okay thing to say? Definitely not appropriate. Please don't do anything weird and obviously problematic like this again.

If there's anything more to be said or done about this situation, it will have to wait until more moderators are online since at the moment there aren't many here. Hopefully my "two cents" will do for now.

[Mad Convoy]

6 minutes ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

However, I have to speak to @Mad Convoy too. Honestly, I do feel like what you're doing is a bit unfair. How you've been treated in the past has nothing to do with ShroomZed. He can't be held accountable for how you feel when half the reason you feel that way is because of someone else. I'm not saying you can help how you feel, or even that you did anything wrong exactly. But you're very openly making this personal and bringing up past experiences that aren't equivalent to what's at hand. I just...don't really think that's a good idea. Respond just to the actual argument at hand, don't bring in personal reasons why a person's post or argument feels especially bad to you when others can't really be held accountable for that. I'm sorry you've been hurt in the past, certainly. But overall, how personal this is to you seems to be coloring the way you look at things too much and make you take things personally when they're not intended that way. I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I already acknowledged that ShroomZed needs to majorly change his tone, but I have to say you are making this a lot more personal than it is, and for your own sake I think you need to be careful of that. If you want to talk about how you feel or have been hurt, maybe it's best to do that in the Express Your Emotions thread and not in a public thread about simply discussing Sonic games. Not trying to make this a bigger deal than it already is or to make you feel worse, though.

I see what you mean. I was trying to provide some perspective on why I was so upset even if it seemed so minor and pointless, however, it is clear that that was not the right thing to do. I messed up in getting my point across. My apologies to @ShroomZed and you. I won't do it again unless its relevant.

I mean, I feel bad now for it, but I'll acknowledge that I have a lot of issues that I need to not project all over the place. Thanks for telling me!

[Swing]

Well, for me personal it is not really a huge surprise that Sonic is not as popular as he used to be. Sonic's main gimmick back in the 90 was, that he was the cooler Mario. His coolness was the fuel for this series. Kids love cool stuff. And back than Sonic was the coolest character for a child.

But time has past and kids nowadays see other stuff as cool and hip. A giant blue hedgehog with attitude can not sell alone games anymore. Sonic's coolness doesn't work in 2017. That goes for most Jump'n Run stars. If Sega wants to keep Sonic alive, they have to go with solid gameplay. The reason why Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Kirby, Rayman and Crash Bandicoot still work this days is because those games try to be games. 

Sonic always seems to focus more on the presentation. It was always like that. Even back in the 90 with the classic era. Sure, they had solid gameplay too, very solid gameplay, but the main reason why Sonic was even back than so popular with kids was the overall coolness of the games. The adventure feeling, the action feeling, the typical 90 attitude, that was the thing that drove children to buy Sonic games.

But I do not think that this marketing will work again in 2017. We saw it with Forces, sure Sonic fans will get hyped when they see Shadow or Chaos in a trailer, but for most kids those two characters are just a black Sonic an a water creature.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

@Monkey Destruction Switch

Nobody's forcing you to play Forces

The person I was responding to wasn't a to imply that I actually wanted them banned.

It was due to a sly unintentional pun. Some people think they are trying to be "punny".

The joke was quite easy to differentiate though even if I do show that I'm joking, some mods honestly just don't get it.

[Dr. Mechano]

A really sick person smoking a pack of cigarettes might not in and of itself kill them, but it sure ain't gonna help their prognosis either. The fact that they may have put worse things in their body before and survived isn't really reassuring.

That's what Forces is. It may not be the death knell of the franchise, but it is a sick series continuing to be unhealthy rather than taking steps toward recovery. A series that's hemorrhaging fans and their money, without which it will eventually have nothing left to stand on.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

53 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

@Monkey Destruction Switch

Nobody's forcing you to play Forces

The person I was responding to wasn't a to imply that I actually wanted them banned.

It was due to a sly unintentional pun. Some people think they are trying to be "punny".

The joke was quite easy to differentiate though even if I do show that I'm joking, some mods honestly just don't get it.

I'm glad you didn't actually mean anything malicious. There's a lesson for you to learn here, and that's that people can take things a lot of different ways when you're only communicating through text.