Sonic Forces forgets the basic rule of 3D platforming...

[Indigo Rush]

4 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

If you want an example of a game that utilizes the boost in the best possible way for a platformer like that in a 3D space, look no further than this proof of concept:

 

It has it's problems and people have given it a lot of due criticism, but I still think this is the best thesis for a 3D Sonic platformer I've seen since Sonic Adventure's speed levels. Sonic Utopia also deserves mention for nailing the controls and physics, but GHP2's level design is absolutely baller. 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Offering my own two cents, both in relation to the topic and the current discussion:

...I don't really have anything to say about the drop shadow, only that considering there doesn't really seem to be much precision platforming from the levels shown so far, I'm not too concerned yet. Now if there is more precise platforming later, then yeah I can see it being a problem.

Now on the current train of discussion:

@sonicdudeatdawn You really have to understand, we tend to see Sonic Forces akin to how a interviewer sees a potential employee; if the potential employee comes in and only shows his mediocre/substandard work, then the interviewer (ie the audience/us in this case) is not going to even give the potential employee the time of day, because there are plenty of other people who are showing far better works who are more worth the interviewer's time.

Everything about Forces is like a guy who swaggers into an interview convinced he's prepared and hoping to ride on the credentials  (ie nostalgia in this case) of someone who he knows and was his far superior predecessor, only for the interviewer(s) to shoot him down because his portfolio is incredibly subpar and he only thought he was prepared because he only covered the most basic interview questions, but ignored/misunderstood the specific questions related to the job he wants. And the interviewer knows the guy whose credentials the potential employee was hoping to ride on, and doesn't care/finds the attempt insulting.

The stuff we've seen so far is basically that subpar portfolio. Underdeveloped, lacking understanding, and ultimately just not up to the standards the interviewer expects. Of course in real life one can always improve their portfolio, but at this point considering just how late in development things are, it's extremely unlikely.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, The Deleter said:

If you want an example of a game that utilizes the boost in the best possible way for a platformer like that in a 3D space, look no further than this proof of concept:

1. Not the most polished but it has tons of potential and does quite a few things right

 

1. Additionally for Wispons, there's a really easy fix for them. You know how Sonic hides elemental shields in the levels, or Mario hides powerups that allow him to preform better in out-of-the-way item blocks? That fixes the amount of effort it needs to take the wispon route, making it a reward for exploration rather than an immediate and superior pathway. And for the actual path, make the wisp only the enterance to the route overall, where the rest of the path is composed of more challenges for Sonic's core abilities. Or...
2. Make engaging gameplay around that wisp, rather than automatic trails of rings of automation. Instead of just a constant line of rings, make it timing-based where obsticals would punish you if you activated it at the wrong moment, or throw specific gimmicks into the mix that change up the way you think about the trails of rings. Or, better yet, give Sonic the core ability of the wisp while it's active while letting him keep his initial moveset, and have that wisp's gimmick integrated with Sonic's normal level design to make it more complex and multi-dimensional.
3. Having the wisps be "here's a path, here's the item, press a button to win it" is probably the laziest power up design in a video game ever, so it really isn't hard to fix tbh.

2. I agree, but remember this was demo footage. i want to have challenging wispon levels like: Use burst to get through these laser walls, fail and your jettisoned back to the start of the sequence or something like a drill challenge where if you play your cards right you get a nice level skip yeah?

3:demo my man, or do you want eggmanland for a demo stage?

Spoiler

That's a straight fuck you from the demo: play eggmanland with all three characters

 

[Diogenes]

Just now, sonicdudeatdawn said:

3:demo my man, or do you want eggmanland for a demo stage?

Quit saying "demo" like it's an excuse. This kind of level design is inexcusable regardless of what part of the game it's in. Obviously early levels are going to be easy but they shouldn't be this mindless, this babying to the player.

[Badnik Mechanic]

3 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

3:demo my man, or do you want eggmanland for a demo stage?

You judge what is shown, not.... wait... I said this 30min ago.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Quit saying "demo" like it's an excuse. This kind of level design is inexcusable regardless of what part of the game it's in. Obviously early levels are going to be easy but they shouldn't be this mindless, this babying to the player.

there's more to that tag team stage. there is no way in hell they're ending it there.

Spoiler

Take 06's demo of Kingdom valley: it only contained the first part of the stage. when i got the game it was expanded to have: A section where you play as silver, mach speed, and a really annoying cathedral part

 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Just now, sonicdudeatdawn said:

there's more to that tag team stage. there is no way in hell they're ending it there.

  Reveal hidden contents

Take 06's demo of Kingdom valley: it only contained the first part of the stage. when i got the game it was expanded to have: A section where you play as silver, mach speed, and a really annoying cathedral part

 

Yeah, but for all of 06's many flaws, at least the demo for Kingdom Valley had more involving level design and gameplay mechanics at work, even if it was very fundamentally flawed.

[Badnik Mechanic]

6 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

there's more to that tag team stage. there is no way in hell they're ending it there.

"The first half of the movie was the most offensive disgusting thing I'd ever seen, the acting was bad, the lighting was poor and the sound was inaudible, I nearly walked out

But the second half was great.

This movie is overall great!"

 

Also interesting signature you have there...

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, sonicdudeatdawn said:

there's more to that tag team stage. there is no way in hell they're ending it there. i was talking about the length alone.

Yeah the lightning wisp is a straight shot to grapple attack to ring to grapple

  Reveal hidden contents

Take 06's demo of Kingdom valley: it only contained the first part of the stage. when i got the game it was expanded to have: A section where you play as silver, mach speed, and a really annoying cathedral part

 

 

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

there's more to that tag team stage. there is no way in hell they're ending it there.

You're probably right, but what we've seen is still shit, and the full level being longer isn't going to change that.

[Tracker_TD]

6 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

 

Making your post a second time doesn't make it a better point. Maybe it will be a longer level, but we've no reason to believe such (the length is on par with some Generations levels as is, to be honest), but we base our judgement on what we have seen, not what we might see.

...and yeah, that signature is... kinda pathetic. C'mon. 

[sonicdudeatdawn]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You're probably right, but what we've seen is still shit, and the full level being longer isn't going to change that.

i hope it does have more than "here are wisps, good bye!" and i hope it has those shock enemies you have to time your attack on. maybe use the grappling hook to to hang onto an unkillable bot and ride it to another section of level, and finish off with a slide under closing doors. (Now that's fun shit right there)

i guess we could try to make modern sonic useful somehow

2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

...and yeah, that signature is... kinda pathetic. C'mon. 

wasn't aware i was in the miss signature pageant 

[The Deleter]

The tag team gameplay is at least the fourth stage into the game, if Green Hill is even the first world for Modern Sonic and Co. in Forces

By the fourth level in Generations we had this:

Generations was considered one of the easier Sonic games

Obviously Sonic shouldn't have Mario-esque precision challenges by the fourth level, his entire design is much looser than that and requires more leeway for the player to learn. But automatic lines of rings is not acceptable route design, easier game or no. SLW did this too, where the final level had lines of rings for the wisp route. This isn't their first time being this lazy...

The director and designer of this game is the one directing Forces

And again, this is the final level of that game

If they don't show us a reason why it's going to get better than this, then I see no reason to assume otherwise. It could surprise, like the fact that there's a full 3D stage in the first place, but it's not a high bar we're asking to be surpassed here, so...

[Tracker_TD]

1 minute ago, The Deleter said:

The tag team gameplay is at least the fourth stage into the game, if Green Hill is even the first world for Modern Sonic and Co. in Forces

By the fourth level in Generations we had this:

Generations was considered one of the easier Sonic games

 

I'm not sure a video of the stage being broken in two serves your point too well, tbh

[Osmium]

Just saying, it's pretty bloody sad that we are at a point where a full 3D stage is a big enough deal to be considered "surprising", lmao 

And it's not even really 3D either, just a 2D stage from another point of view. 

[The Deleter]

I just grabbed a random link to Chemical Plant modern without checking, so my bad, lol. Hang on.

Edit: Fixed

[sonicdudeatdawn]

6 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

The director and designer of this game is the one directing Forces

And again, this is the final level of that game

If they don't show us a reason why it's going to get better than this, then I see no reason to assume otherwise. It could surprise, like the fact that there's a full 3D stage in the first place, but it's not a high bar we're asking to be surpassed here, so...

Ew. that is pure ew. 

That's a FINAL LEVEL?! disgusting at least 3ds (final levels) version was just hell. not "bubbly fucking clouds" (because the level takes in... more sky than the lost hex? what?

 

[Osmium]

8 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

Ew. that is pure ew. 

That's a FINAL LEVEL?! disgusting at least 3ds (final levels) version was just hell. not "bubbly fucking clouds" (because the level takes in... more sky than the lost hex? what?

 

I'm not meaning to be a dick presently but I honestly find it difficult to decipher what you are saying half the time. Jesus Christ. 

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, ShroomZed said:

I'm not meaning to be a dick presently but I honestly find it really hard to decipher what you are saying half the time. Jesus Christ. 

I don't know what i say sometimes but every time i manage to catch it. I'm being quoted, and anything i say is backpedaling.

 

[Sonikko]

16 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

Just saying, it's pretty bloody sad that we are at a point where a full 3D stage is a big enough deal to be considered "surprising", lmao 

And it's not even really 3D either, just a 2D stage from another point of view. 

Amen. This level having the camera behind the back is being regarded as some kind of holy grail, when it's just really a 2D level with a 3D perspective. 

Heck, Terminal Velocity was more 3D than the first half of this thing is.

[Osmium]

Just now, Sonikko said:

Amen. This level having the camera behind the back is being regarded as some kind of holy grail, when it's just really a 2D level with a 3D perspective. 

Heck, Terminal Velocity was more 3D than the first half of this thing is.

It's funny too since the part with the rotating discs is taken straight from S3&K too, the rotating platforms in Sky Sanctuary. This level could be in 2D and there would be literally no difference. 

[Josef]

Thanks for all your lovely comments guys, I really appreciate it. You guys all rock too .

I've been thinking over what the anti-Forces guys have said and I can see where they are coming from. Sonic started out as a 2D platformer, and it's probably not great for them to see a platforming series they love turn into what happened to Sonic after Adventure, where platforming took a backseat to speed, reflex-based challenges and setpieces. It kind of turned into a different game.

Thing is, I've never played anything other than Adventure and Adventure 2, so I'm not #1 Sonic fan lol. But I do think the gameplay in Adventure and Forces has its own appeal and place. You can argue that it is overly automated, and you are probably right, but just because something is linear and hand-holdy doesn't mean it is objectively bad. There isn't much player interaction in numerous games I love, particularly narrative based games, but I still think those games are legitimately good. And while Sonic is obviously not narrative focused in that sense, I think the spectacle and speed of the game shouldn't just be called outright bad. No other game provides the fast-paced, flowing speed and setpieces of 3D Sonic, and while you could (rightly) say it's too automated, I think that's still a point in its favour.

And there are obviously things I would change about Forces if I could, I would like to play as characters such as Shadow and I would like to see more open levels like in Adventure, Forces seems a bit too corridory. But even with those faults, I like what I'm seeing and I love all the Adventure fannods, it brings me right back to my teenage years.

TLDR, I understand and respect why people don't like Forces, and maybe you guys are right that Sonic should become less automated in the future. I wouldn't be opposed to that, you guys know more about Sonic than me lol. But I also think 3D Sonic is enjoyable and a unique experience, even if it is too automated.

 

[NegaMix]

33 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

there's more to that tag team stage. there is no way in hell they're ending it there.

I'm late to this, but frankly, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the tag-team level really IS that short in the game proper. After all, this game (namely thanks to Modern Sonic's moveset and the Avatar's Wisp usage) is reminding me a lot of Sonic Colours, a game filled with Acts that barely lasted a minute long each.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Well i'll leave with this:

The Demo could be hiding more stage than we think, that isn't an excuse rather just my thoughts

The automated lighting ring fuck level is really pants and should incorporate more skill 

Being fully 3d doesn't add much to the stage, i didn't care much from the start

a drop shadow is really only needed in precision platformers of which modern sonic is not

The wispons should be more skill based in later levels 

and the avatar is modern sonic but much better

[Osmium]

6 minutes ago, Josef said:

TLDR, I understand and respect why people don't like Forces, and maybe you guys are right that Sonic should become less automated in the future. I wouldn't be opposed to that, you guys know more about Sonic than me lol. But I also think 3D Sonic is enjoyable and a unique experience, even if it is too automated.

Don't feel like you have to take some backseat to us because you haven't been playing as long, what you say is as valid as anyone else's position. It's open to questioning of course but you seem to understand that quite well, so good for you. Just saying man, you seem to be quite pleasant about it. You should try the other games at some point and see for yourself how they are, that would be interesting.