What YOU Think of Sonic Forces

[Indigo Rush]

I think we need a specific thread for Utopia discussion, I'd be down to clown there if someone made it.

[Sega DogTagz]

15 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I can see your point, but the adrenaline rush of Unleashed gave us was there mainly because of low framerate and clunky controls. The low time windows for QTE together with low fps (so not much time for player reaction), more often than not screwing up wasn't on the player, but on the game itself.

Jeez what version were you playing. On the PS3 the only issues in-stage that I hit were some framerate issues in the Adabat level. The rest of the levels ran like butter. Usually at 60 FPS too.

I fancy myself a speedrunner, and mastering Unleashed's quick reaction quick reward gameplay was utter bliss. Clearing the plank run in Jungle Joyride with flawless quicksteps, Snaking through Cool Edge's ice covered tundra, shoot, even using the bunny hop in lieu of a traditional jump to clear the little curb in the beginning Windmill Isle. Thats what gets my blood pumping. The QTEs were more of a distraction if anything. I loved it because the game catered to those that lived dangerously. The ones who saw the pillars falling in Arid Sands and dared to run under them as they crumble. Thats where my adrenaline came from.

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I found myself afraid of drifting on each curve, because it's so hard to tell the output of said move.

GIT GOOD

 

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And I can't really see your point about Utopia, I mean... Sure you can finish the level without putting much effort into it, but it's going to be a bad playthrough. Try and run fast without screwing up, explore while still going at max speed. The slopes, the loops, they finally have some meaning and the game entertains me a LOT even by just running around and exploring. Rolling off those huge ramps and landing on a downward shaped slope does give me adrenaline rushes.

For me its just too open. What platforming challenges that do exist are extremely generous to people who are versed in how to play it. Its fallback to speed based platforming is to increase the target size of the task at hand. That lack of necessary precision strips away any and all sense of awe. Sitting back and watching someone play Utopia is a snooze-fest. Unleashed's blood pumping pace and dedication to precision can catch your attention from afar, just like the Sonic games of old were designed to do.

If your looking for an experience that is more of a sandbox or something that plays like you would imagine the classics playing in 3D, then sure, Utopia may have some appeal. I'm personally more interested in something that is fun. Something that stands up as a game. Utopia doesn't for me.

[Osmium]

17 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I think we need a specific thread for Utopia discussion, I'd be down to clown there if someone made it.

There was this one. 

 

[Clewis]

43 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Jeez what version were you playing.

Likely the 360 version, as it was capped at 30 fps compared to the PS3 version which was left uncapped but would regularly jump around between 60-30 fps (sometimes lower).

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On the PS3 the only issues in-stage that I hit were some framerate issues in the Adabat level. The rest of the levels ran like butter. Usually at 60 FPS too.

There isn't a single version of Unleashed that "runs like butter". There are definitely moments in the PS3 version's daytime levels where the game will reach 60 fps (note: moments), but otherwise the game's performance is generally all over the place. I think the only area in the game where the game runs smoothly for an extended amount of time is Holaska.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 minute ago, Clewis said:

Likely the 360 version, as it was capped at 30 fps compared to the PS3 version which was left uncapped but would regularly jump around between 60-30 fps.

There isn't a single version of Unleashed that "runs like butter". There are definitely moments in the PS3 version's daytime levels where the game will reach 60 fps (note: moments), but otherwise the game's performance is generally all over the place. I think the only area in the game where the game runs smoothly for an extended amount of time is Holaska.

Most of the technical fails I see come from the Hubs *cough*Chun-Nan*cough*. I see the dips in Jungle Joyride, but thats the only one that comes to mind for me for the stages. Could be because I play that level more than any other...

 

Could you name a part of a stage in the PS3 version prone to chugging? I'll go look at it for myself.

[Clewis]

2 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Could you name a part of a stage in the PS3 version prone to chugging? I'll go look at it for myself.

I never specified that any part of the game was was prone to chugging, just that its general performance was a lot more varied (distractingly so, imo) than something that would be considered to "run like butter". That is, the game regularly jumps around in the 25/30-60 fps range, which is probably why the 360 version was capped so that its performance would appear more consistent.

Idk, maybe your perspective on what's considered "smooth" is different compared to mine, but I've never thought of Unleashed as a game that was well off in the performance department. I've always figured most others felt the same considering the high amount of requests there are for a PC release.

[Milo]

3 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Thats not even applicable to this situation. Mania's succsess stem directly from Whiteheads ability to recapture and reinvigorate a formula that we know works. That is time-tested and time-approved. He's painting a Picasso from a blueprint. Is Mania impressive looking, sure it is, its still looks like a Picasso, but no small amount of credit for that goes back to the original classic games. Its not like he designed the playstyle from the ground up.

The fans behind Utopia are rediscovering the wheel. Porting over the momentum based gameplay and the freedom of an open world are things that have never been done before in a 3D official capacity. Fan produced or not, where Mania finds its succsess is in the footprints of the originals. Utopia is its own tangent. The scrutiny curve is going to be different. Trying to compare its evolution to Whitehead's journey from fangame to official developer is total bunk.

You mean the time-tested and time approved formula Sonic Team and Dimps had (and arguably still has) abandoned by 2001 at best, and 1994 at worst?

The formula that when classic fans cried foul about the above two absolutely butchering it in a supposed sequel that proclaimed to "provide fans with an unrivaled classic Sonic feel", Sega's response was to either direct fans to play a re-release of one of the original games, or made the suggestion that they were hard to please (which was implied by Sega PR and explicitly stated by Iizuka himself)?

The formula that had been gone for so long, people had thought faithfully reproducing it would take a miracle until a fan recreated one of the original games in their entirety --not just recreating the physics engine, but also duplicating the level data and game assets, and having them run flawlessly on top of that engine--  by himself, in his spare time, and without the plethora of resources or tools Sonic Team and Dimps had access to?

I stand by my original statement, and will further reinforce it with the following point: the only way classic fans were able to even get faithful new classic Sonic projects from Sega at all (irregardless in 2D or 3D) was because they literally had to start making those projects themselves and (in the case of Taxman/Stealth) get Sega to take them up for an official release. If we ever get a 3D Genesis Sonic game, it too will likely be achieved through the efforts of the community, rather than the official studio developers for the franchise. Because it is clearly obvious now that Sonic Team and Dimps sure as hell weren't and still aren't interested (or qualified) in making such games at all.

[Sega DogTagz]

5 hours ago, Yeow said:

You mean the time-tested and time approved formula Sonic Team and Dimps had (and arguably still has) abandoned by 2001 at best, and 1994 at worst?

The time frame and all the extra semantics matters little. He's still striking out to re-create something that already existed. The foundation was shown to him in advance. He deserves all the accolades that come his way due to being able to get what he did done, but its still a re-creation. A dang good one, but he's not being charged with the need to develop something that hasn't been accomplished to great effect by someone else before.

As opposed to the people behind Utopia, who are attempting to utilize a formula in 3D that has never been tested and never been done in an official capacity. What I am getting at is that alone makes both situations completely different.

I mean, just approach it critically. If I ran up on a bunch of fans and asked them the key to developing a good 2D game, I would bet my lunch money that the answers you would receive would be a heck of a lot more streamlined than if you asked the same question of 3D. That's the bell curve Utopia has to deal with, and Mania doesn't.

 

 

 

[Sonikko]

9 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Jeez what version were you playing. On the PS3 the only issues in-stage that I hit were some framerate issues in the Adabat level. The rest of the levels ran like butter. Usually at 60 FPS too.

I fancy myself a speedrunner, and mastering Unleashed's quick reaction quick reward gameplay was utter bliss. Clearing the plank run in Jungle Joyride with flawless quicksteps, Snaking through Cool Edge's ice covered tundra, shoot, even using the bunny hop in lieu of a traditional jump to clear the little curb in the beginning Windmill Isle. Thats what gets my blood pumping. The QTEs were more of a distraction if anything. I loved it because the game catered to those that lived dangerously. The ones who saw the pillars falling in Arid Sands and dared to run under them as they crumble. Thats where my adrenaline came from.

I played the 360 version mainly, but I had a chance to try the PS3 one. On the 360 the quickstep section in JJ was hard and it got my heart pumping, it's something that is just there at 60fps instead, it poses little threat. I know the PS3 version had the framerate capped at 60fps, but it reached 60fps, it wasn't stable at all. JJ likely ran in the 40 range and dipped in the 10s. Anyway, once you have time to react when you take out the hardware limitations the game does very little to excite.

9 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

GIT GOOD

Lmao, I eventually mastered the drift, but again, it was very flawed and there's no excuse for that. Generations fixes it, it controls great and the drift section in SS doesn't pose a threat anymore. Again, another thing that got my blood pumping in the console version was a thing because of clunky controls/technical limitations, not actual good design.

9 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

For me its just too open. What platforming challenges that do exist are extremely generous to people who are versed in how to play it. Its fallback to speed based platforming is to increase the target size of the task at hand. That lack of necessary precision strips away any and all sense of awe. Sitting back and watching someone play Utopia is a snooze-fest. Unleashed's blood pumping pace and dedication to precision can catch your attention from afar, just like the Sonic games of old were designed to do.

If your looking for an experience that is more of a sandbox or something that plays like you would imagine the classics playing in 3D, then sure, Utopia may have some appeal. I'm personally more interested in something that is fun. Something that stands up as a game. Utopia doesn't for me.

But what I don't get is, did you play it yourself? Because it always sounds like you're basing your opinions on videos, and I can tell you that playing that game isn't easy at all. Doing the stuff you see in speedruns is hard as hell.

It may look easy but I can assure you it's not.

 

[The Deleter]

Well I mean that's the hardware the game was designed for in the first place. It matches the intensity it allows. Not the original release's fault better performing hardware breaks the game's original difficulty and pacing as a result.

I'd imagine that if they designed a game as intense as Unleashed again for a system with solid 60FPS, the level design or speed would receive a boost overall, tbh.

 

Also guys, you can have personal opinions on what is fun and exciting vs what is dull and boring without trying to claim the other is factually bad design in comparison because of it, y'know :V

On that topic, they're both on pretty equal footing in my opinion. From an excitement level, Utopia has dynamic physics that allow you to go as fast as you can with your abilities, should you master them, and with Unleashed, repeated playthroughs unlock higher speed levels, meaning the game can go further than being a static and set speed to memorize and get bored of, and allows you to push it to the limit.

Both could get boring with repeat playthroughs and memorization in terms of thrill, but that ability to go beyond the bare minimum and push yourself keeps that aspect intact for as long as humanly possible, in my opinion. If Unleashed were a 60FPS game it might've had a higher top speed for max XP, again, but that only applies to the fan port. Bit sad that it won't be the same if it were ported to Pc eventually, though...

 

And I know it's already been brought up, but lol, Unleashed does not run at 60FPS on the PS3, practically ever. Only times I can get it to that point is while standing relatively still as the Werehog and looking at as little geometry as possible, and it's really noticable. Everything else is either 40FPS or below.

[Sonikko]

All I'm saying is that Unleashed, as it is, is exciting mainly because of technical flaws. I'm not saying the boost formula can't work, but it obviously needs a rehaul.

Unleashed was a good game when it came out, but if a game relies heavily on low fps to keep the player excited then I don't know what to say, but it doesn't look like great design.

EDIT: I'd like to bring another example to the table. Megaman 1 which is a game I've played last week for the first time.

That game kept me on my toes for the entire campaign, it was a wild ride and I enjoyed every minute of it. Sure it's conceptually very different from what Sonic ever tried, but hear me out.

That game is difficult, very difficult, but it's always fair to the player. Everytime you screw up it's your fault, and you're going to screw up a lot. There's always plenty of time to react, in some rare occasions the game suffers from some cheap enemy placement, but it's very rare, and it's a pretty old game.

My point is that a difficult and exciting game is great, it's awesome. But Unleashed wasn't fair to the player, a combination of high-speed and low fps just doesn't give the player enough reaction time, and that's all there is to the level design. Once you play the game at an acceptable framerate and competent controls then it all falls apart.

[JosepHenry]

6 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

All I'm saying is that Unleashed, as it is, is exciting mainly because of technical flaws. I'm not saying the boost formula can't work, but it obviously needs a rehaul.

Unleashed was a good game when it came out, but if a game relies heavily on low fps to keep the player excited then I don't know what to say, but it doesn't look like great design.

Um... How low fps can help a game or make the player excited? Unleashed Project mod for Generations plays just fine in a smooth 60 fps, and make the stages look better. Lot's people prefer playing that way.

 

 

[Sonikko]

Just now, Joseph Mello said:

Um... How low fps can help a game or make the player excited? Unleashed Project mod for Generations plays just fine in a smooth 60 fps, and make the stages look better. Lot's people prefer playing that way.

 

 

I don't know if I worded that correctly.

I was saying that playing Unleashed on the X360 and playing it with the Generations mod project gives totally different feelings. The X360 version keeps the player on his toes the whole time because of the low framerate. That makes up for very short reaction times.

The PC mod being 60fps just shows that the level design wasn't all that great. I obviously agree that 60+fps is the way to go, especially for a franchise like Sonic.

30 or lower fps don't make a game better, you would never hear me say something like that lol, I was just saying that Unleashed was built with that in mind and that the game doesn't work as good at 60fps because once you actually have time to react to obstacles, then it's not nearly as engaging, but because the game itself is flawed, not because more fps make things worse.

EDIT:

Of all the boost games, Unleashed is the only one that has that thrill, that makes you feel that much excited,

Generations was good but again, I think that a stable framerate and fair reaction times just show how much the boost needs a rehaul.

[Speedi]

20 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I don't know if I worded that correctly.

I was saying that playing Unleashed on the X360 and playing it with the Generations mod project gives totally different feelings. The X360 version keeps the player on his toes the whole time because of the low framerate. That makes up for very short reaction times.

The PC mod being 60fps just shows that the level design wasn't all that great. I obviously agree that 60+fps is the way to go, especially for a franchise like Sonic.

30 or lower fps don't make a game better, you would never hear me say something like that lol, I was just saying that Unleashed was built with that in mind and that the game doesn't work as good at 60fps because once you actually have time to react to obstacles, then it's not nearly as engaging, but because the game itself is flawed, not because more fps make things worse.

EDIT:

Of all the boost games, Unleashed is the only one that has that thrill, that makes you feel that much excited,

Generations was good but again, I think that a stable framerate and fair reaction times just show how much the boost needs a rehaul.

I think I can chalk that up to Unleashed just being a harder game then Generations. The framerate might mess with certain sections of the levels sometimes, but it's usually not the reason for you dying most of the time. Unleashed can be a really unforgiving game because of how fast they expect the player to react to certain situations. Generations doesn't really make you do that as much, because it puts more focus on platforming then pure speed. 

[JosepHenry]

4 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I don't know if I worded that correctly.

I was saying that playing Unleashed on the X360 and playing it with the Generations mod project gives totally different feelings. The X360 version keeps the player on his toes the whole time because of the low framerate. That makes up for very short reaction times.

The PC mod being 60fps just shows that the level design wasn't all that great. I obviously agree that 60+fps is the way to go, especially for a franchise like Sonic.

30 or lower fps don't make a game better, you would never hear me say something like that lol, I was just saying that Unleashed was built with that in mind and that the game doesn't work as good at 60fps because once you actually have time to react to obstacles, then it's not nearly as engaging, but because the game itself is flawed, not because more fps make things worse.

EDIT:

Of all the boost games, Unleashed is the only one that has that thrill, that makes you feel that much excited,

Generations was good but again, I think that a stable framerate and fair reaction times just show how much the boost needs a rehaul.

I can understand that, but I disagree. Unleashed had that thrill of never losing your speed while platforming in both sections (2D and 3D), the thrill doesn't come from the low framerate, the level design makes you react at the right time so you can maintain the flow.

Generations sorta had that, but suffered a bit from the blocky design of Colors, and again Forces level design will be the same as Colors unfortunately.

If Forces had the same level design as Unleashed people wouldn't be as mad as they are now. Because Unleashed lacks physics, but can compensate with that thrill of never losing the speed. Maybe not your cup of tea, but had identity. Colors has speed sometimes in a straight line, but the rest is just a basic generic platformer that doesn't have that thrill that Unleashed had. Is not because of the framerate (the game doesn't slow down ALL the time either), is because the level design was way different.

And going back to the Colors level design is a big problem. Because people are finally seeing the problems with it's  level design. And the boost nearly loses all of the potential that could have.

[Chris Knopps]

You know...

I'm betting they will throw their hands up after the reception and sales of Forces and pull another Lost World on us for the next Sonic game, feeling they tried to cater to the fan base and failed because of the fans and not themselves so they'll just go back to doing whatever nonsensical stuff they feel like doing to mutate the franchise further...

A sad and cruel yet realistic fate for the poor blue blur.

[Sonikko]

7 minutes ago, Speedi said:

I think I can chalk that up to Unleashed just being a harder game then Generations. The framerate might mess with certain sections of the levels sometimes, but it's usually not the reason for you dying most of the time. Unleashed can be a really unforgiving game because of how fast they expect the player to react to certain situations. Generations doesn't really make you do that as much, because it puts more focus on platforming then pure speed. 

 

4 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

I can understand that, but I disagree. Unleashed had that thrill of never losing your speed while platforming in both sections (2D and 3D), the thrill doesn't come from the low framerate, the level design makes you react at the right time so you can maintain the flow.

Generations sorta had that, but suffered a bit from the blocky design of Colors, and again Forces level design will be the same as Colors unfortunately.

If Forces had the same level design as Unleashed people wouldn't be as mad as they are now. Because Unleashed lacks physics, but can compensate with that thrill of never losing the speed. Maybe not your cup of tea, but had identity. Colors has speed sometimes in a straight line, but the rest is just a basic generic platformer that doesn't have that thrill that Unleashed had. Is not because of the framerate (the game doesn't slow down ALL the time either), is because the level design was way different.

And going back to the Colors level design is a big problem. Because people are finally seeing the problems with it's  level design. And the boost nearly loses all of the potential that could have.

I agree with both of you.

I feel that way about Unleashed but maybe it's just me. It's that I played the X360 version to death, and coming from that to the PC mod, it just felt so much easier that it kinda lost something in the translation. Again, I think that most of Unleashed difficulty does come from the fact that 30fps give the player 1/2 the reaction time of 60, 20 1/3 and so on. I'm positive that if Unleashed had a high stable framerate it would be a different situation.

That said the game isn't easy at all, and as Speedi said it's pretty unforgiving, especially in the later levels.

I did feel that way when I played Generations on PC too, the X360 version was harder because of lower framerates, the PC version is much easier.

 

[JosepHenry]

15 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

 

I agree with both of you.

I feel that way about Unleashed but maybe it's just me. It's that I played the X360 version to death, and coming from that to the PC mod, it just felt so much easier that it kinda lost something in the translation. Again, I think that most of Unleashed difficulty does come from the fact that 30fps give the player 1/2 the reaction time of 60, 20 1/3 and so on. I'm positive that if Unleashed had a high stable framerate it would be a different situation.

That said the game isn't easy at all, and as Speedi said it's pretty unforgiving, especially in the later levels.

I did feel that way when I played Generations on PC too, the X360 version was harder because of lower framerates, the PC version is much easier.

 

Oh alright, maybe what you're saying is right, but they could improve over Unleashed'a level design now that 60 fps is a must.

But no they are going with the Colors level design again... Sigh.

[Chris Knopps]

15 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

Oh alright, maybe what you're saying is right, but they could improve over Unleashed'a level design now that 60 fps is a must.

But no they are going with the Colors level design again... Sigh.

Well, that's what folks get for whining about the Werehog so much to the point most praise for the day sections of Unleashed was swamped.

Colors was practically heralded as God-level perfection for Sonic so...

Simple answer as to why that's happening.

[Sonikko]

Well Generations got much more praise than Colours ever did, so.

[JosepHenry]

7 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Well Generations got much more praise than Colours ever did, so.

Yet Sonic Team thinks that Colors was perfect and wants to ignore Unleashed and what made Generations great.

And that's annoying. Can't wait for a whole act running in circles or bouncing in a slow moving spring, cuz that what we need in a Sonic game riiight

Is not even the 2D, the problem with the Colors level design is the lack of Sonic-ish design in EVERYTHING. Unleashed had 2D and I didn't even care because the flow was the same as 3D. It wasn't a chore to go through, and baffles me when people hate Sonic Forces so much yet they love Colors (Not saying about anyone here in specific mind you)

[Chris Knopps]

It's random but I found this picture and it represents my impression pretty well on Forces.

It's trying to be serious yet still wants to be lighthearted/funny a little too much to where the tones just aren't meshing together well.

[JosepHenry]

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

It's random but I found this picture and it represents my impression pretty well on Forces.

It's trying to be serious yet still wants to be lighthearted/funny a little too much to where the tones just aren't meshing together well.

...............

How... Do you know? We still haven't seen a single cutscene yet. We don't know jack diddly squat about the story...

 

Tone is the least of Forces problems.  In fact is one of the things that could go right.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Joseph Mello said:

...............

How... Do you know? We still haven't seen a single cutscene yet. We don't know jack diddly squat about the story...

 

Tone is the least of Forces problems.  In fact is one of the things that could go right.

I'm basically going by the clashing atmospheres of Green Hill and the city locations as well as the scripts we've heard so far, such as between Tails and Eggman, not to mention the, as I've mentioned, "Here comes the clown" music that plays during the Eggman fight calling back to Sonic 4.

It kind of feels like having two canons facing one another and firing at the same time over and over.

[Sonikko]

8 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

Yet Sonic Team thinks that Colors was perfect and wants to ignore Unleashed and what made Generations great.

And that's annoying. Can't wait for a whole act running in circles or bouncing in a slow moving spring, cuz that what we need in a Sonic game riiight

Is not even the 2D, the problem with the Colors level design is the lack of Sonic-ish design in EVERYTHING. Unleashed had 2D and I didn't even care because the flow was the same as 3D. It wasn't a chore to go through, and baffles me when people hate Sonic Forces so much yet they love Colors (Not saying about anyone here in specific mind you)

I agree 100% with you. They need to fix the pacing, Colours f*cked that up badly. If they keep 2.5D sections, they should take some notes from the Rush games instead of going the Colours way.