The General 'Murican Politics Thread

[Dizcrybe]

It might not have to be like this if the majority party and their voters didn't worship corporations and realized adopting better business practices would make them more money in the long-term.

[KHCast]

The saddest thing is, Starbucks IS usually one of the better companies out there that tends to support and fight for equality, and leans more left than others. But it’s end of the day still a corporation in America.

[KHCast]

So I’m just curious, what are your guys thoughts on ICE agents and what they’ve been doing lately with all the raids and deportations?

[Dizcrybe]

I've heard that they enjoy their job way too much.

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, Dizcrybe said:

I've heard that they enjoy their job way too much.

Yeah it seems like with Trump and the GOP in power, and their stance on immigration and deporting illegals, ICE is kinda on a power high. A lot of their arrests and deportations are questionable, and they seem to ignore procedure a lot.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

On 1/30/2018 at 11:30 AM, KHCast said:

The saddest thing is, Starbucks IS usually one of the better companies out there that tends to support and fight for equality, and leans more left than others. But it’s end of the day still a corporation in America.

A corporation in just about any country has plenty of bollocks on that tier. It ain't just America.

[KHCast]

56 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Tangle Tango said:

A corporation in just about any country has plenty of bollocks on that tier. It ain't just America.

If we’re about to equalize how America handles corporate priority with the rest of the world, I’m not sure how. Other places have shittyness as well, don’t get me wrong, but America is like built on capitalism and corporate obsession 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, KHCast said:

but America is like built on capitalism and corporate obsession 

Arguably some other nations have that going too with their corporations, but I won't deny that yes, America is one of the nations that features those.

[TailsTellsTales]

On 1/28/2018 at 7:44 AM, Dizcrybe said:

Okay I'm gonna stop you right here. You don't get to make that claim after Dems overwhelming voted against not one, but two Republican bills that would fuk the economy in half. I get you're angry at Dems for not just fixing America overnight, but this is just straight up ignoring facts.

I could go on and list a bunch of things on how democrats betrayed the working class but I leave it at that. I don't expect them to fix things overnight. I would expect that they would have the guts to fight strongly for regular people. It's easy to OPPOSE but can they actually FIGHT for something like the other side do?

On 1/28/2018 at 7:44 AM, Dizcrybe said:

Here's a question: do you think that if we somehow got all those jobs back, CEOs wouldn't give them a salary just barely exceeding minimum wage, if that? It's not like bringing jobs back to America is going to fix income equality. Plus, like Oglivie said, all that's really gonna do is produce shit nobody can afford because they're still too broke. And if manufacturers are spending all this money to make a product and nobody's buying it, well...

It is true that if they brought the jobs back they would still pay much less than before but still better than walmart type jobs. However the manufacturers who move jobs to China or Mexico were making great profit and people could buy their products but they still chose to eliminate high paying jobs for greed. When you ship jobs overseas, those workers end up at walmart type jobs therefore that benefit of a cheaper product is cancelled out.

On 1/28/2018 at 3:45 PM, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Your solution to job loss is to reverse it (good luck with that, comparative advantage is a thing), and force everyone to pay higher prices. My solution is to tax increased profit margins to pay for a larger welfare state and retraining.

My solution would be to prevent anymore jobs being shipped oversea and add a very high tax to corporations who ship jobs overseas and a lower tax to those who send them back.

On 1/28/2018 at 3:45 PM, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Or we could stop worshipping employment. We should expand our consideration of work. Parenting. Volunteering. Education. This would help the gender gap enormously as well, as much of women's wage discrimination has its roots in women's tendency to pick up care-related jobs, which aren't given appropriate value.

We should also build up our welfare state. People should tie their dignity to being human, not to whether or not they work for some CEO.

For the record, "everyone must work to eat" is an insane right wing talking point, completely at odds with economic theory that has demonstrated mass employment would actually hurt the economy.

Employment equals income which equals financial support. I would rather for people just to have jobs that pay enough for basic survival like food, housing, shelter, and transportation. I do not think tax payers should have to pay to subsidize corporations who pay their workers a starvation wage. However lowering full time to 35 or 36 hours per week would help create more jobs and give people more freedom to go for their dreams though. Wouldn't mass employment force employers to increase wages at that point?

On 1/29/2018 at 10:10 AM, CD Sanic said:

I have question, i registered to vote for the first time in 2016, do i have to register again to vote this year?

Not sure. Probably best that you re-register to be on the safe side.

[Tani Coyote]

http://www.wallowa.com/local_news/20180124/oregon-may-join-national-popular-vote-compact

Oregon's legislature will be considering a bill that would put a question to join the National Popular Vote Compact on the ballot this year.

Oregon has come close to joining the Compact 5 times in recent years, but each time the leading Democrat shot the bill down on the basis the people need to decide. Now it's time for him to put his money where his mouth is and get this on the ballot.

This might be foreshadowing of what happens nationwide if Democrats do well this year: they might work with Republicans in several states to bring the popular vote into effect by 2020. Which means Trump's chances tank dramatically.

On 1/29/2018 at 9:10 AM, CD Sanic said:

I have question, i registered to vote for the first time in 2016, do i have to register again to vote this year?

You should be able to check with your state Secretary of State whether or not you are registered or not.

Do not register again unless you find out you have been purged from the voter rolls. That runs the risk of getting in trouble with the law.

7 hours ago, TailsTellsTales said:

\My solution would be to prevent anymore jobs being shipped oversea

Something nearly any economist would tell you is a bad idea. Not only is it less efficient, but you invite reprisal by other countries. If we play favorites, so will other economies. This is why free trade bloomed: it's not just some neoliberal conspiracy, it just makes the most sense because it avoids a collective action problem of every country pursuing its own trade interest and in the end making every country worse off.

Let's consider the case of Zimbabwe. As part of an anti-imperialist crusade, it at one point mandated that all businesses must be half-owned by Zimbabweans, even if financed entirely by foreign capital.

Guess how great their economy is doing? They had to retire their trillion dollar bills in favor of using foreign currency for basic goods. Their protectionist policy led to ruin, because nobody in their right mind wanted to invest there.

Nationalism belongs nowhere near economics.

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Employment equals income which equals financial support.

You can get that with a basic income. Why not overhaul our welfare system instead of clinging to nationalist ideals that belong in the 19th century?

 

[SSF1991]

12 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

http://www.wallowa.com/local_news/20180124/oregon-may-join-national-popular-vote-compact

Oregon's legislature will be considering a bill that would put a question to join the National Popular Vote Compact on the ballot this year.

Oregon has come close to joining the Compact 5 times in recent years, but each time the leading Democrat shot the bill down on the basis the people need to decide. Now it's time for him to put his money where his mouth is and get this on the ballot.

This might be foreshadowing of what happens nationwide if Democrats do well this year: they might work with Republicans in several states to bring the popular vote into effect by 2020. Which means Trump's chances tank dramatically.

Saw this GOP dumbass reply to the bill proposal:

Quote

"Rep. Bill Post, R-Keizer, said he opposes the bill. Any attempt to obligate votes to the national popular vote would likely face a challenge in court and be overturn.

“Are you kidding? No, it is unconstitutional,” Post said."

It's unconstitutional to let the people elect a President instead of electoral votes that only represent the 1%? Does the GOP even know what the fuck the Constitution is? There's nothing in the Consititution that says they can't do this. They only hate this because it's from the opposing party, as per usual.

Can the GOP party just fuck off already?

[KHCast]

I mean the GOP has claimed tons of civil rights policies unconstitutional in the past, along with policies that would benefit the citizens vs corporations, so this really shouldn’t be a surprise that they’re once again using their favorite word here

[Tani Coyote]

2 hours ago, SSF1991 said:

It's unconstitutional to let the people elect a President instead of electoral votes that only represent the 1%?

This is an overly simplistic critique of the Electoral College. The Electoral College's elitism days are long since over, as in today's world, it is the people who choose the Electors, and most states punish faithless electors. It's easy to think of the Electoral College as an oligarchic institution but it's really no moreso than Congress.

The real problem with the Electoral College is that the winner take all system has given swing states dominance in the system. Small states, despite their marginally increased power, do not decide the outcome on any given day. The right wing talking point that the system "protects" small states is at odds with reality.

Your average Presidential hopeful gives far more of a damn about Florida than they do about North Dakota or Wyoming. In general, the system's popular vote and electoral vote winner match up, but the problem is the winner take all system allows discrepancies in that.

2 hours ago, SSF1991 said:

Does the GOP even know what the fuck the Constitution is? There's nothing in the Consititution that says they can't do this.

Indeed. The Constitution says that each state may decide how its electors are chosen. It also says that states cannot enter into compacts with each other without consent of Congress.

However, the Supreme Court has ruled that the latter rule only applies if the intent of a Compact is to limit federal power. This Compact would not do so, so should squeak by the rule.

Unfortunately for those hardcore constitutionalists, the Supreme Court's power of judicial review is widely accepted on both sides of the aisle.

[TailsTellsTales]

15 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

This is why free trade bloomed: it's not just some neoliberal conspiracy, it just makes the most sense because it avoids a collective action problem of every country pursuing its own trade interest and in the end making every country worse off.

Last I checked free trade has been devastating to the U.S. I mean if free trade was so good for the U.S., you would not have strong support from both sides against free trade like TPP. Free trade seems to primarily benefit large massive corporations in making their top executives more richer at the expense of making everybody else poorer. It honestly seems like you are betraying your own country when you fire people to move your company to a low wage country. It's okay if they KEEP the company in their host country and add new company in another country, but it's entirely different to close down and take advantage of countries with bad labor laws and worker conditions to benefit yourself.

Also I heard about that trillion dollars bill that was insane.

15 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

You can get that with a basic income. Why not overhaul our welfare system instead of clinging to nationalist ideals that belong in the 19th century?

What would this welfare overhaul system be? I know we desperately could use healthcare so that could be a start.

[Patticus]

Mueller is pursuing every likely vein of criminality relating to Russia and Trump, and it's a delicious five layer cake of an investigation.

Trump will not be happy.

[Tani Coyote]

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/02/06/senators-want-to-remove-confederate-memorial-day-from-floridas-legal-holidays

A Florida Senate committee has approved a bill 4-2 that would remove Confederate Memorial Day and the birthdays of Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis as legal public holidays.

It still has to clear several committees as well as both chambers of the Florida legislature and the Governor's desk, but the fact a heavily-Republican legislature (which would have heavily-Republican committees) is making progress on this subject indicates the tide is turning against Confederate romanticism.

Of course, Confederacy sympathizers continue to bemoan the erasure of history, even though not a single one of them mentions General Longstreet and how he has been erased from history.

Except, get this, in left-wing circles, who hold him up as probably the best Confederate officer of all, since he supported Reconstruction and later led a black militia in crushing a white supremacist riot.

But of course, Longstreet doesn't get honored by any of the Southern state governments. Coincidence, surely.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/06/politics/pennsylvania-gerrymandering-impeachment/index.html

Pennsylvania Republicans are in a panic after the US Supreme Court refused to overrule the Pennsylvania state Supreme Court's decision that Pennsylvania's legislative maps need to be redrawn prior to this year's election. With a Democratic Governor, it is expected the Democrats will undo a lot of GOP gerrymandering and come that much closer to seizing both state and federal majorities.

On 2/3/2018 at 4:37 PM, TailsTellsTales said:

Last I checked free trade has been devastating to the U.S.

That really depends on the region and sector.

It has absolutely been devastating to the industrial heartland. But the service sector couldn't be happier as it has made goods incredibly cheap, offering a deal to both consumers and sellers.

If there is any economic motivations behind Trump's victory in the heartland, it's most certainly that while the economy has been growing and recovering since Obama's term, the recovery wasn't spread equally; the Great Lakes still have a lot of social dislocation and until Trump neither Party seemed to show any interest in really helping the people there.

Of course, now that Trump has revealed he's not really helping much himself, the Democrats could possibly win back voters with their 2018 emphasis on providing for retraining. That is clearly a shout out to laid off industrial workers who had Trump sympathies.

Quote

I mean if free trade was so good for the U.S., you would not have strong support from both sides against free trade like TPP.

The TPP has a lot of problems besides free trade. For starters, it was negotiated behind closed doors and the proposals in it raised concerns about invasions of privacy, for example.

Though there's also the bias in how people are elected. The people with the strongest ideological bent are the ones who turn out to vote in primaries and the general elections, and so those are the ones the politicians listen to. The large pool of people who benefit from free trade quite possibly aren't activist enough to push in favor of free trade.

As was mentioned, people left unemployed by free trade have a lot more political clout because they are now politically engaged and have the free time to continue to be so.

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Free trade seems to primarily benefit large massive corporations in making their top executives more richer at the expense of making everybody else poorer.

That's the popular image, but it's at odds with the economics.

Free trade generally creates more wealth than it destroys. The reason we have a problem in our world is the system isn't redistributive enough. Had we a larger welfare state, the rich would be making more money, but would also be paying more taxes that would be used to provide for and retrain the people laid off by free trade.

Protectionism isn't the answer, socialism is.

Quote

It honestly seems like you are betraying your own country when you fire people to move your company to a low wage country.

They're a business, though. Patriotism isn't usually part of the equation.

Patriotic businesses have a harder time surviving when most consumers are interested in cheap goods.

Honestly, if we want to fault anyone for free trade, it's not the rich who should be blamed. It's the consumers. The business owners merely respond to consumer demand.

Quote

Also I heard about that trillion dollars bill that was insane.

Yes, and that's the result of what happens when the government arbitrarily regulates the economy rather than making ones that make good economic sense.

Labor protections, food safety and good wages? Excellent laws to have in place.

Arbitrary requirements that this group own so much of each company? Probably a bad one.

Quote

What would this welfare overhaul system be? I know we desperately could use healthcare so that could be a start.

Healthcare is the flavor of the month, but we need to go even bigger. We have dozens of welfare agencies that could be rolled into one. The reason we have such a massive bureaucracy is because conservatives insist on means-testing due to an inherent distrust in people (coincidentally, this became an issue as liberals moved to make welfare more accessible to people of color), even as data shows the vast majority of people will not abuse government assistance. If we come to terms with the idea it's okay if a small percentage free ride off the system, we can eliminate all the current welfare programs in favor of a single cash payment system. We'd cut a huge amount of bureaucracy while also raising the current quality of life.

[TailsTellsTales]

22 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

A Florida Senate committee has approved a bill 4-2 that would remove Confederate Memorial Day and the birthdays of Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis as legal public holidays.

I am shocked this actual holiday. Like do any other country celebrate people who wanted to do awful things? Does Germany have a holiday to honor and celebrate the greatness of hitler? No. So why does this happen in U.S.?

22 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

That really depends on the region and sector.

It has absolutely been devastating to the industrial heartland. But the service sector couldn't be happier as it has made goods incredibly cheap, offering a deal to both consumers and sellers.

True. Service sector for customers have been good. For people who work service sector jobs have been bad.

22 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Protectionism isn't the answer, socialism is.

But I like protectionism. Globalism is bad to me personally. Socialism um I still not sure how I feel about that. Though open to anything besides the oligarchy we have.

22 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

They're a business, though. Patriotism isn't usually part of the equation.

Patriotic businesses have a harder time surviving when most consumers are interested in cheap goods.

Honestly, if we want to fault anyone for free trade, it's not the rich who should be blamed. It's the consumers. The business owners merely respond to consumer demand.

Okay consumers demanded cheaper goods and businesses responded by making these goods in other countries. But how come prescriptions are so expensive when consumers demand they are made cheaper?

22 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

If we come to terms with the idea it's okay if a small percentage free ride off the system, we can eliminate all the current welfare programs in favor of a single cash payment system. We'd cut a huge amount of bureaucracy while also raising the current quality of life.

That sounds efficient but we know that even if ONE person is free riding off that somebody will want to cut it severely despite the enormous good it is doing all because ONE person had to abuse it. Anyway you made your points very nicely. Good job.

[KHCast]

Since it’s black history month, here’s a few interesting facts to know courtesy of Samantha bee.

Wow, it’s really sad how history doesn’t talk about John Robinson like at all.:/

[Tornado]

All protectionism does is kick the can down the line.

[Dizcrybe]

This is unrelated to any of the above, but to be completely honest, I'm getting sick of the term "progressive". These days, anyone who applies it to themselves use it to mean "better than those so-called 'liberals' lmao". It's less a political ideology and more yet another reason for people to stick their nose in the air.

[KHCast]

One thing I’m seeing trump supporters, fencers, sympathizers, moderates currently saying to defend trump and his shitty job he and the gop is doing, is that since they don’t hold the “super majority” they can’t get anything done because dems can block them. Gotta wonder why they never applied this kinda sympathetic rhetoric towards Obama who was constantly shut down by the GOP. The house, senate and presidency belong to republicans, but since they don’t have a super majority, we should give them some slack, but we’ll dog pile and harp on Obama despite him not having all those advantages trump currently has.

also trump says he’s “forced” to increase spending on things we don’t like and blames it on dems, and says we need MORE republicans 

 

[SSF1991]

6 hours ago, Dizcrybe said:

This is unrelated to any of the above, but to be completely honest, I'm getting sick of the term "progressive". These days, anyone who applies it to themselves use it to mean "better than those so-called 'liberals' lmao". It's less a political ideology and more yet another reason for people to stick their nose in the air.

It's better than calling yourself a "deplorable", that's all I know.

[Dizcrybe]

2 hours ago, SSF1991 said:

It's better than calling yourself a "deplorable", that's all I know.

Not a exactly a high bar there.

[TailsTellsTales]

10 hours ago, Dizcrybe said:

This is unrelated to any of the above, but to be completely honest, I'm getting sick of the term "progressive". These days, anyone who applies it to themselves use it to mean "better than those so-called 'liberals' lmao". It's less a political ideology and more yet another reason for people to stick their nose in the air.

That came from the strong divide on democratic side during primary.

 

[KHCast]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/winter-olympics-2018/2018/02/09/gus-kenworthy-takes-shot-mike-pence-winter-olympics-opening-ceremony-adam-rippon/323368002/

hahaha. Yeah this presidency can’t even escape the scrutiny at the Olympics, where “putting our differences aside” is the big message. They don’t even deserve that right. So Pence can continue to fuck off.