Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[StaticMania]

Just now, ChikoLad said:

So yeah, Mario is the last franchise to "take notes" from if you want consistency, it shook itself up just as much as Sonic did, even having three core gameplay styles, like Sonic.

Those 3 different styles of Mario are structured differently, but the base game-play and abilities are the same. All Sonic games control differently, but they aren't built around the same fundamental game-play. Sonic of Sonic Adventure was a decent 3D translation of the Classic 2D games and changes were made as necessary...but the Boost game-play isn't identical to either even at a surface glance. He doesn't control the same, he doesn't share any moves besides the HA, he's not even affected by physics the same. This also goes for Heroes, the Story-book games, the Rush games, Lost World...

[Nepenthe]

28 minutes ago, Scar said:

Personally don't think this whole situation should ever become one where Sega has to please each and every segment of the Sonic fanbase, because god forbid one segment doesn't get what they want. The fact that SEGA are doing this right now with the seperation of Sonic into 3 identities (classic, modern and boom) I think is inconceivably reprehensible. Just deepening the cracks in the fanbase which achieves nothing.

Why would having yet another fucking Sonic with yet another type of gameplay be good? Why can't Sonic Team just make a game as best they can without worrying about pleasing this fan, or that fan. Maybe it will result in some competently made games, but their similarities will ultimately be superficial without actually capturing their essence (a la Classic Sonic from Gens), ultimately pleasing nobody.

The thing about all of that is that you don't have to move forward by separating the franchise into distinct parts, because there's been little demonstration that every individual's desires are all mutually exclusive and cannot meaningfully intersect. Someone- anyone- explain what about classic physics is incompatible with Adventure or even boost games? What about humor is incompatible with more serious storytelling? What about a game that uses bright colors in the first level says it can't use muted colors in another? Why can't we have optional playable characters? People keep saying "Just make a good game!" when we've had several "just good games!" already and the needle hasn't really moved all that much in terms of goodwill earned back.

All this separation bullshit really is is the culmination of: shitty fan culture that drew lines in the sand, half in order to condense different ideologies into simple comprehensive words and the other half in order to root for their own team while shitting on other fans; and Sonic Team's validation of shitty fan culture along with a general inability to hash out a game design that actually makes an attempt at reconciliation of all the crap they've thrown at the wall by looking critically at all of the good ideas they've had or accidentally stumbled upon. Any developer worth their salt would've done this years ago and ended up satisfying a multiple demographics anyway-- DOOM is probably the most recent example.

So I maintain that you can please a huge supermajority (e.g. "everyone"), but probably not going about it like this. And I mean, if you are going to treat each major part of the fandom as a completely separate demographic instead of trying to get everyone back into the fold again, don't half-ass it by giving Classic Sonic a loveletter classic game and then teaming Modern Sonic up with Classic Sonic again.

[ChikoLad]

12 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Those 3 different styles of Mario are structured differently, but the base game-play and abilities are the same. All Sonic games control differently, but they aren't built around the same fundamental game-play. Sonic of Sonic Adventure was a decent 3D translation of the 2D games and changes were made as necessary...but the Boost game-play isn't identical to either even at a surface glance. He doesn't control the same, he doesn't share any moves besides the HA, he's not even affected by physics the same. This also goes for Heroes, the Story-book games, the Rush games, Lost World...

Stuff like physics don't count for much and are extremely nitpicky, even the physics between the Classics (and Mania, I might add, since I've played it) are different to one another. The physics are also different between different Mario games too, even the 2D ones (this was a big complaint a lot of people had with Super Mario Maker - all game styles actually use the NSMB style physics rather than making the older styles use their old physics). Something like physics is too nitpicky since they change every game anyway, as they try to fine tune them for newer level design ideas. Literally, only the most hardcore fans care about this in any game series.

Also, he does share moves with past games. Sonic has the Light Speed Dash and Stomp in Unleashed to Generations. And while the boost and slide seem like new moves, the boost is just an over-powered Spin Dash (i.e. both serve as instant gratification of speed from a standstill, the boost is just way more over the top and comes out faster and constantly accelerates you rather than a single burst of acceleration), and the slide is literally just rolling with a different cosmetic animation. I even have a Sonic Generations mod that changes the animation to actual rolling and yeah, it doesn't make much difference and feels quite like rolling in previous Sonic games, and serves the same function exactly (i.e attacking enemies, accelerating down slopes, and squeezing through tight spaces).

If anything, Sonic Unleashed did for Sonic in 2008 what Super Mario 64 did for Mario in 1996, when it comes to controls. They just expanded the base concepts from the older games and gave you more moves based around that. And even then, Unleashed didn't go quite as insane as Super Mario 64 in that regard.

[Cyrus]

3 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

Long-ass post

I agree with the point about Mario having almost as much experimentation as Sonic, but the difference is execution. I personally enjoy most of the out-there one shot gimmicks in Sonic games and individual levels, but I guess they're all acquired tastes, and they can be really out there, which can be a turn off to the general audience expecting to have every level play the same, like what Mario's typically known to do and has set as a rule for platformers. As much as I can have fun with or tolerate these gimmicks, I can see where the complaints are coming from and that they're rough around the edges and showing signs of lacking proper play testing.

[Scar]

10 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The thing about all of that is that you don't have to move forward by inherently separating the franchise into distinct parts, because there's been little demonstration that every individual's desires are all mutually exclusive and cannot meaningfully intersect. Someone- anyone- explain what about classic physics is incompatible with Adventure or even boost games? What about humor is incompatible with more serious storytelling? What about a game that uses bright colors in the first level says it can't use muted colors in another? Why can't we have optional playable characters? People keep saying "Just make a good game!" when we've had several "just good games!" already and the needle hasn't really moved all that much in terms of goodwill earned back.

All this separation bullshit really is is the culmination of: shitty fan culture that drew lines in the sand, half in order to condense different ideologies into simple comprehensive words and the other half in order to root for their own team while shitting on other fans; and Sonic Team's validation of shitty fan culture along with a general inability to hash out a game design that actually makes an attempt at reconciliation of all the crap they've thrown at the wall by looking critically at all of the good ideas they've had or accidentally stumbled upon. Any developer worth their salt would've done this years ago and ended up satisfying a multiple demographics anyway-- DOOM is probably the most recent example.

So I maintain that you can please a huge supermajority, but probably not going about it like this. And I mean, if you are going to treat each major part of the fandom as a completely separate demographic instead of trying to get everyone back into the fold again, don't half-ass it by giving Classic Sonic a loveletter classic game and then teaming Modern Sonic up with Classic Sonic again.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say, except put more eloquently and with more detail.

Which is why I don't understand why anyone would want to continue with the segregation. It makes no sense.

[ChikoLad]

11 minutes ago, Auto said:

I agree with the point about Mario having almost as much experimentation as Sonic, but the difference is execution. I personally enjoy most of the out-there one shot gimmicks in Sonic games and individual levels, but I guess they're all acquired tastes, and they can be really out there, which can be a turn off to the general audience expecting to have every level play the same, like what Mario's typically known to do and has set as a rule for platformers. As much as I can have fun with or tolerate these gimmicks, I can see where the complaints are coming from and that they're rough around the edges and showing signs of lacking proper play testing.

Sonic's fault comes from the more experimental stuff, yes. Mario also does the same thing, but Mario has explicit sub-franchises for more experimental stuff (like Paper Mario and Mario Party) with maybe one or two gimmick stages in a main game, while Sonic tries to experiment in his main games a bit much.

Though I think context is important. With Sonic Adventure, it made sense and was executed decently well. It wasn't so bad here because you could experience almost every stage as just Sonic and that was most of the game right there. The other characters didn't have a whole game's worth to play through either and felt more like mini-games (and then Tails and Knuckles were not huge deviations from Sonic anyway).

It's when you are forced to experience it to play more of Sonic's levels, like was the case in Sonic Adventure 2 and Unleashed (even though I really like the Werehog myself) that it becomes a bit of an issue. And I think Project 2017 will be fine as a game as a long as it remembers that.

[Cyrus]

3 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

Stuff like physics don't count for much and are extremely nitpicky

 

3 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

Literally, only the most hardcore fans care about this in any game series.

You can get, like, shot saying that on a Sonic related site. The physics are a vital part of the classic games and momentum was a means to getting around in their levels. Slopes and loops would be a lot less important if characters didn't speed up while running or rolling on them. The only reason physics could be seen as """"trivial""" to Sonic these days is because we've had so many games made of flat levels focused more on obstacles rather than physics and characters have instant or automatic ways of running faster and don't roll, but while those games are fun (to some) those don't reflect why Sonic didn't come off as just a failed Mario clone at the start.

[Nepenthe]

The way a game feels is pretty fucking relevant to its identity, even if a layman can't elaborate about the physics in detail. This is why most people, non-fans and fans alike, weren't fooled by Sonic 4.

[Cyrus]

Level design too, I don't have too much of a problem with Sonic 4, but comparing most of its maps with those of Sonic 2 and Sonic 3&K makes it look like a flash game

[Indigo Rush]

22 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

Stuff like physics don't count for much and are extremely nitpicky

Yeah, try playing Mario Galaxy with Sonic Lost World physics and tell us how it doesn't count for much.

[ChikoLad]

15 minutes ago, Auto said:

 

You can get, like, shot saying that in a Sonic thread. The physics are a vital part of the classic games and momentum was a means to getting around in their levels. Slopes and loops would be a lot less important if characters didn't speed up while running or rolling on them. The only reason physics could be seen as """"trivial""" to Sonic these days is because we've had so many games made of flat levels focused more on obstacles rather than physics and characters have instant or automatic ways of running faster and don't roll

I think you missed the point of what I meant.

I'm well aware how important good physics are to a Classic Sonic game, or any Sonic game really. The problem is that a lot of fans have too rigid a definition of what "good physics" are, and then contradict themselves when saying "just make physics like the Classics", because NONE of the Classic games have the same physics as each other. They're actually quite different, and even Mania feels different to past games. Hell, one of the main reasons Sonic 2 is my least favourite of the Classic games is because Sonic's physics don't feel right to me. Even the Taxman ports have different physics variables than the original games (though in a way I would say is improved).

That's what I meant by physics are too irrelevant a thing to bring up when it comes to "consistency". Yes, they should be decently consistent (i.e. they should feel familiar and follow the same basic laws between games) and should make sense (which was why Sonic 4 was frowned upon - that game flat out didn't make sense with it's physics, such as decelerating when you roll down small hills). However, asking for each and every game to have the exact same physics when they NEVER have, and when it's technically impossible to do this between generational gaps, AND to then use "the physics need to be the exact same as X game" is the definition of being nitpicky and way too diehard a fan of a particular game. It also doesn't make sense to say "Mario does this better than Sonic" when each Mario game has very different physics to other Mario games. Again, some people were bothered by how Super Mario Maker actually didn't retain the individual physics from each game, and just used the NSMB ones for all of them.

[Nepenthe]

No one is asking for the games to have exactly the same physics set as any particular classic game down to the binary. They're asking for physics that are a reasonable and accurate approximation of the physics in those games, which in turn were such a close enough approximation to one another (sans CD) that it makes sense to put them under the same style or genre. This is pedantry of the highest order.

[Cyrus]

I'm glad that Classic Sonic in Generations turned out the way it was. Rolling doesn't quite work like it used to or should, but the stages were Sonic 3 levels of open and the controls are perfect for a 2D Sonic game. I still believe Sonic Team can and should make a classic Sonic game as long as they put as much care and attention to detail into it as they did with Generations, while remembering how to properly code the rolling. If we're getting another Gens, I hope Classic is that good again, or even better.

[StaticMania]

Just now, ChikoLad said:

If anything, Sonic Unleashed did for Sonic in 2008 what Super Mario 64 did for Mario in 1996, when it comes to controls. They just expanded the base concepts from the older games and gave you more moves based around that. And even then, Unleashed didn't go quite as insane as Super Mario 64 in that regard.

Sonic Unleashed - Generations (we're grouping style together) didn't expand on anything Sonic did in the past, closest it covers are the Mach speed sections from Sonic Nex Gen. It took away typical platforming challenges with speed based obstacles and gimmicks...in exchange for completely linear, reactionary level design that occasionally has run-of-the-mill platforming. The Boost, short hop, quick-step ,slide, and stomp aren't evolutions of moves Sonic had before, they're brand new moves made for getting through this completely different level design philosophy.

[Cyrus]

3 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

Hell, one of the main reasons Sonic 2 is my least favourite of the Classic games is because Sonic's physics don't feel right to me. Even the Taxman ports have different physics variables than the original games (though in a way I would say is improved).

I can't tell any difference between them at all, what are they?

[Blacklightning]

You know what, I'm up for a challenge today, so I wanted to demonstrate all of these have been done before in various forms and really aren't as complicated as they sound. My apologies in advance if this is technically macroing.

23 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Someone- anyone- explain what about classic physics is incompatible with Adventure or even boost games?

 

28 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

What about humor is incompatible with more serious storytelling?

29 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

What about a game that uses bright colors in the first level says it can't use muted colors in another?

34 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Why can't we have optional playable characters?

Right, now that said, can we all please stop pretending that these are somehow herculean tasks when the precedent has been set for years if not decades, and in several cases by the same fucking franchise? I'm frankly sick of people treating modern Sonic as though it exists in a vaccuum and all the flaws, shortcomings and divides it created are irreversible or something.

10 minutes ago, Auto said:

I can't tell any difference between them at all, what are they?

Don't quote me on this, but I think there's some disrepancy on how speed caps work? Something about dropping to a set speed by holding forward if you're above that set speed, I believe - if you've repeatedly failed the big spindash jump in Wing Fortress like I did as a kid you'll probably have some idea of what I mean. Even that said, though, its physics are still leagues better than anything we get these days, where most seemingly random speed drops that happen (including ones you get simply by jumping) apparently aren't even oversights.

[ChikoLad]

17 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Sonic Unleashed - Generations (we're grouping style together) didn't expand on anything Sonic did in the past, closest it covers are the Mach speed sections from Sonic Nex Gen. It took away typical platforming challenges with speed based obstacles and gimmicks...in exchange for completely linear, reactionary level design that occasionally has run-of-the-mill platforming. The Boost, short hop, quick-step ,slide, and stomp aren't evolutions of moves Sonic had before, they're brand new moves made for getting through this completely different level design philosophy.

Making contradictory statements for the sake of it doesn't make a point, especially when you back it up with nothing.

Spin Dash was designed to give players an easy way to gain speed from a standstill, to keep the flow of speed going. The boost does this too, just on a bigger scale. Boost also existed in Sonic Rush before Unleashed, and even prior to that, we had "Boost Mode" in Sonic Advance 2 & 3. Evolution of the same concept.

Short hopping wasn't even a new move, it was just an extra animation added to something you could already do in past games (tapping the button as opposed to holding it for shorter jumps). That's literally just attention to detail from an animation standpoint and doesn't effect gameplay in any way. It's an evolution in animation, but in terms of gameplay, they literally didn't change anything.

Slide, as previously stated, holds ALL of the same functions as rolling in past games, and nothing more, nothing less. Once again, it's a different coat of paint for the same move, literally.

Stomping is similar to Jump Cancel from SA1, and Bound from SA2/SAdv2. They are slightly different to one another, but ultimately all serve the exact same purpose - making more precise landings, and in the case of both Bound and Stomp, a downward attack. Evolution of the same concept.

The only truly new moves that weren't based on concepts Sonic has had for a long time that Unleashed brought were the drift (though it technically existed in Sonic R too), and the quick step.

As for your comment on the level design, saying all levels in the Unleashed trilogy are linear and reaction based is just saying you didn't play them enough to have an opinion, especially since some of the most open-ended levels and crazy platforming challenges (the extra and DLC acts in Unleashed, not to mention Eggmanland) exist in these games.

[Darinian]

1 minute ago, ChikoLad said:

Short hopping wasn't even a new move, it was just an extra animation added to something you could already do in past games (tapping the button as opposed to holding it for shorter jumps). That's literally just attention to detail from an animation standpoint and doesn't effect gameplay in any way. 

Excuse me but even omochao says you keep your speed when you short hop. When you hold x you actually do a spin jump which completely kills speed.

Yeah I think it's a different thing.

 

[ChikoLad]

4 minutes ago, Flare Sakitha Sol said:

Excuse me but even omochao says you keep your speed when you short hop. When you hold x you actually do a spin jump which completely kills speed.

Yeah I think it's a different thing.

 

Which is exactly how it works in all games prior. Go play any classic Sonic game, rack up tons of speed (hitting a red spring on a wall is an easy way of doing it), and then do a full jump, and watch Sonic return to his "default" top speed by the time he lands. Same goes for the Adventure games, just Spin Dash and do a full jump and watch your speed go away in less than two seconds.

Now do the same thing in both cases, but only briefly tap the jump button, and you lose much less speed.

So yes, it's an animation change. Generations was simply the first time they explained the mechanic in detail, but it's been there since Sonic 1.

[Cyrus]

3 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

Making contradictory statements for the sake of it doesn't make a point, especially when you back it up with nothing.

Spin Dash was designed to give players an easy way to gain speed from a standstill, to keep the flow of speed going. The boost does this too, just on a bigger scale. Boost also existed in Sonic Rush before Unleashed, and even prior to that, we had "Boost Mode" in Sonic Advance 2 & 3. Evolution of the same concept.

Short hopping wasn't even a new move, it was just an extra animation added to something you could already do in past games (tapping the button as opposed to holding it for shorter jumps). That's literally just attention to detail from an animation standpoint and doesn't effect gameplay in any way. It's an evolution in animation, but in terms of gameplay, they literally didn't change anything.

Slide, as previously stated, holds ALL of the same functions as rolling in past games, and nothing more, nothing less. Once again, it's a different coat of paint for the same move, literally.

Stomping is similar to Jump Cancel from SA1, and Bound from SA2/SAdv2. They are slightly different to one another, but ultimately all serve the exact same purpose - making more precise landings, and in the case of both Bound and Stomp, a downward attack. Evolution of the same concept.

I agree with the similarities, but these are like apples to pears comparisons. The slide can't bring you to speeds that can be game breaking if you're smart with it, the jump cancelling doesn't attack enemies, and boosting controls stiffly while the 3D spin dash in SA1 and 2 has as much control as running at full speed in those games.

[Darinian]

Just now, ChikoLad said:

So yes, it's an animation change. Generations was simply the first time they explained the mechanic in detail, but it's been there since Sonic 1.

It's not a classic thing it's a modern thing, it's been there since Unleashed

(bean or been)

[azoo]

Implying people are just too whiny and wanting 1:1 replication of Genesis Sonic physics when "go down hill = faster", " go up hill = slower", and "roll down a hill = MUCH faster" is all people are really asking for here shows BOTH how simple of a request this is and how much of a cop out that argument is.

I mean it's not like there isn't room in even the boost style to make those elements central parts of the game again (for example, the slide could easily be made the roll). Not even to mention how games like Lost World could've played 100x better for those additions alone.

[ChikoLad]

10 minutes ago, Auto said:

I agree with the similarities, but these are like apples to pears comparisons. The slide can't bring you to speeds that can be game breaking if you're smart with it, the jump cancelling doesn't attack enemies, and boosting controls stiffly while the 3D spin dash in SA1 and 2 has as much control as running at full speed in those games.

The slide can bring you to game breaking speeds, you just don't need it because the boost already does this.

Unless you want to get into the art of Unleashed/Generations speed running, in which case, say hello to QSS (Quick Step Slide):

Also the Spin Dash/full speed running having as responsive turning as slower speeds isn't actually a good thing in the context of Sonic's speeds.

9 minutes ago, Flare Sakitha Sol said:

It's not a classic thing it's a modern thing, it's been there since Unleashed

(bean or been)

No, it's been there since Sonic 1. The Taxman remakes even have a secret feature to turn this off.

6 minutes ago, Azoo said:

Plus, implying people are just too whiny and wanting 1:1 replication of Genesis Sonic physics when "go down hill = faster", " go up hill = slower", and "roll down a hill = MUCH faster" is all people are really asking for here shows BOTH how simple of a request this is and how much of a cop out that argument is.

I mean it's not like there isn't room in even the boost style to make those elements central parts of the game again (for example, the slide could easily be made the roll). Not even to mention how games like Lost World could've played 100x better for those additions alone.

My problem though comes with saying stuff like "make the slide the roll".

It already is in terms of gameplay. It does all of the exact same things. So at this point, you're not even asking for something gameplay related, it's related to an extremely minor, cosmetic animation.

Also, my other problem is that boost games still have those same principles to the physics as the Classic games. Sure, you have moves that allow you to push the physics to the limit, but that's simply expanding on the idea that Sonic games allow you to play with physics.

[StaticMania]

Just now, ChikoLad said:

Spin Dash was designed to give players an easy way to gain speed from a standstill, to keep the flow of speed going. The boost does this too, just on a bigger scale. Boost also existed in Sonic Rush before Unleashed, and even prior to that, we had "Boost Mode" in Sonic Advance 2 & 3. Evolution of the same concept.

Short hopping wasn't even a new move, it was just an extra animation added to something you could already do in past games (tapping the button as opposed to holding it for shorter jumps). That's literally just attention to detail from an animation standpoint and doesn't effect gameplay in any way. It's an evolution in animation, but in terms of gameplay, they literally didn't change anything.

Slide, as previously stated, holds ALL of the same functions as rolling in past games, and nothing more, nothing less. Once again, it's a different coat of paint for the same move, literally.

Stomping is similar to Jump Cancel from SA1, and Bound from SA2/SAdv2. They are slightly different to one another, but ultimately all serve the exact same purpose - making more precise landings, and in the case of both Bound and Stomp, a downward attack. Evolution of the same concept.

The only truly new moves that weren't based on concepts Sonic has had for a long time that Unleashed brought were the drift (though it technically existed in Sonic R too), and the quick step.

The Boost mode in Advance 2 doesn't make you invincible, it's just visual flare. But you're probably right about this one.

 

Short hopping keeps your speed, whereas a full jump slows you down. Entirely for those speed bumps and jumping small gaps. This wasn't in previous games as even short jumps still slow you down.

 

Slide doesn't function the same as rolling. It used to go under gaps...which you never needed to roll for in previous games. If you try to use it like rolling...down slopes, you'll just waste time slowing down. There was sliding in the 2006 game though.

 

The stomp's utilization for precision jumps is speed-running tactics only. It's intended purpose is simply to stomp on switches and break through floors, something you never needed to do before. The Bounce was intended for reaching higher platforms.

[Darinian]

1 minute ago, ChikoLad said:

The slide can bring you to game breaking speeds, you just don't need it because the boost already does this.

Unless you want to get into the art of Unleashed/Generations speed running, in which case, say hello to QSS (Quick Step Slide):

Also the Spin Dash/full speed running having as responsive turning as slower speeds isn't actually a good thing in the context of Sonic's speeds.

No, it's been there since Sonic 1. The Taxman remakes even have a secret feature to turn this off.

My problem though comes with saying stuff like "make the slide the roll".

It already is in terms of gameplay. It does all of the exact same things. So at this point, you're not even asking for something gameplay related, it's related to an extremely minor, cosmetic animation.

Also, my other problem is that boost games still have those same principles to the physics as the Classic games. Sure, you have moves that allow you to push the physics to the limit, but that's simple expanding on the idea that Sonic games allow you to play with physics.

Sigh, I meant the speed loss