Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Mad Convoy]

6 hours ago, Ajavalo said:

Has this image been posted here already?

If Project 2017 is that "New 2015 title", then a lot of things may have changed in these extra two years. The recent restructuring at SEGA may have altered Sonic Team's direction for their current project.

Perhaps. If that's true, I hope that it doesn't result in the game having inconsistant or outright bad quality due to clashing directions and ideas. I don't want another Sonic game with an identity crisis. Though I notice that "New 2015 title TBA" is listed as for the WiiU, not the NX. Meanwhile, Sonic 2017 is listed for NX and not the WiiU. Perhaps some porting went on or the NX has only began development (relatively) recently, but until we know for sure, that does poke a small hole in your theory.

EDIT: Plus what TimmiT said. Sega apparently said some of the info on the sign is false.

4 hours ago, Apple Kid said:

While I very much enjoy boost, I'm really tired of the extra tagged on gimmicks (Werehog, Wisps, Baby Sonic), and I'm sure others are as well. But perhaps Sonic Team feel it is for the best they continue this streak, since it's what has worked so well for them. They probably brought back Classic Sonic because his image is very positive, it's that ''classic'' gameplay everyone loves so it doesn't feel alien like Werehog or Wisps, and for this anniversary it'd be a fitting inclusion. Maybe they need those extra gimmicks to accompany the short lived, fast paced boost gameplay.

I think the gimmicks can work if done properly. The Wisps, for example, expand what you can do with Sonic and allow for new channels of movement like digging underground or spikeballing up walls, or making water levels not tedious and/or frustrating. They are also justified in the context of Colors taking place in an outer space, surreal amusement park where powerful non-Flickies are having their life energy used by Eggman, and are integrated in the gameplay enough that they don't really feel alien. Setting aside the issue of necessity and assuming that he even is a gimmick, Classic Sonic in Gens provided entertainment on par with the levels of his Modern counterpart as the 2D levels were really well done. With that in mind, I think the issue of the Werehog had less to do with the fact that it is a gimmick and more due to it having poor execution. I also don't see it as any black mark against the boost for Sonic Team wanting to add extra stuff to it-- if Gens's Modern stages, which don't include any overarching gimmicks, are any indication, the boost can stand on its own. And if it couldn't, Sonic Team clearly gave it what it needed.

If Sonic Team's going to add a gimmick, I think the main concern should be if Sonic Team thought it through well enough, not the fact that Sonic Team uses gimmicks at all.

But I do agree with your earlier idea that losing some fans in the quest to pin down Sonic's identity is inevitable. Even if I would end up being turned off by what the next game and future games offered, I'd still think its a good idea to pick one style and stick to the essence of it.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Ajavalo said:

Has this image been posted here already?

If Project 2017 is that "New 2015 title", then a lot of things may have changed in these extra two years. The recent restructuring at SEGA may have altered Sonic Team's direction for their current project.

Alternatively, Sega PR back then didn't lie when they said the "New 2015 Title" on there was bullshit. :V

[Adamabba]

So this game probably will have been worked on for nearly 5 years which, unless I'm mistaken, is alot longer than any Sonic game has ever been worked on. That sounds superb!

I was looking at the old "What the HECK is a '16 Sonic" topic and I came across this interview from 2012. Iizuka said he was "interested in the challenge of doing something completely new with the 3D Sonic's forward view platform action, and bring something new to the table with that as well."

So did he say that because he just wanted to change up Modern Sonic's gameplay and have classic play the same? Or did he originally want to focus solely on 3D, which would mean they decided to add Classic later, causing the delay.

[Muscles Maximum]

I feel like he may have been talking about the up coming Sonic Lost World. It was certainly something 'completely new'. I think we're going straight back to what worked out well for them.

[Ajavalo]

The thing is that Iizuka has been repeatedly stating that the game won't be a sequel. we don't know if he meant it story-wise, gameplay-wise or both. I'm currently baffled because I can't imagine Classic Sonic being there without any connection to Generations.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Ajavalo said:

The thing is that Iizuka has been repeatedly stating that the game won't be a sequel. we don't know if he meant it story-wise, gameplay-wise or both. I'm currently baffled because I can't imagine Classic Sonic being there without any connection to Generations.

There`s definitely gonna be time travel in the story in some shape or form, but it`s not gonna be Generations 2 if thery aren`t going trough old locations. Hell Sonic Mania seems more similar to Generations 2 then anything cause there`s gonna be reimagined old stages.

[nikfan]

It can be as much of a sequel as Sonic Lost World to Generations. We kinda consider it a sequel, but its not really. I think Sonics will keep their gameplay styles from Generations and stories will be connected in some way, but it won;t be a direct sequel. More like Adventure 2 and Heroes, I guess.

[SonicFreak94]

If they DO go back to the boost gameplay there needs to be some changes. 

1: The boost should be more like Sonic advanced 2.

2: The 2d gameplay should only be for Classic Sonic or the portable version.

3: Sonic needs to be able to actually maneuver in a 3d enviorment without automated sequences, boost pads, or splines.

4: Fix Sonic's jump please for the love of God.

5: Stop making Sonic sound like a middle aged man.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I want them to make the boost more engaging and fun. Put in ways that make it so that you can do many cool things with the boost that correspond with the classic physics 

[Kfarc]

I don't see anything wrong with boost gameplay. More with it's level design.I liked level design in Generations because it felt more open (then Unleashed), but there's still more to be desire. If they'll make levels more open then this gameplay can stay.

Buuut, I guess we will have to wait for Sonic Mania to come out until we'll get any more info about this game. 

[Joellui]

Do you guys think the parkour mechanic can be integrated with the boost mechanic. I think it's possible, but I think you would need to replace the spin dash and substitute it for the boost, because for the life of me, I felt that doing the spindash in Lost World was just like the Boost game play just different animations, IMO.

Or or just keep the Boost gameplay, but just make it for flexible for the lack of a better word, I guess I should say.

[StaticMania]

The Spin-dash in Lost World has better turning. You can actually maneuver around things...instead of slowly leering.

[Blacklightning]

15 hours ago, reflection_of said:

5: Stop making Sonic sound like a middle aged man.

Nevermind the subjective can of worms that is the ever-changing VA team - what on earth does this have to do with the Boost playstyle? o_O

15 hours ago, Kfarc said:

I don't see anything wrong with boost gameplay. More with it's level design.

The two are directly linked - level design in Boost games tends to be crap because the boost practically only functions properly on long, empty corridors, and the sheer length of those corridors tends to outweigh both the time it takes to complete them and the resources that go into making them. Well, in its current state, anyways. The boost in general is just begging for a massive nerf if you ask me, because when you have a move that instantly shoots you to top speed with no delay, magnetises rings to you and fucking destroys everything in your path that isn't bolted down there really isn't a whole lot of wiggle room for variety and design quirks left over, let alone balancing issues.

[Hyp3hat]

2 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

Nevermind the subjective can of worms that is the ever-changing VA team - what on earth does this have to do with the Boost playstyle? o_O

The two are directly linked - level design in Boost games tends to be crap because the boost practically only functions properly on long, empty corridors, and the sheer length of those corridors tends to outweigh both the time it takes to complete them and the resources that go into making them. Well, in its current state, anyways. The boost in general is just begging for a massive nerf if you ask me, because when you have a move that instantly shoots you to top speed with no delay, magnetises rings to you and fucking destroys everything in your path that isn't bolted down there really isn't a whole lot of wiggle room for variety and design quirks left over, let alone balancing issues.

Two things that could work are either the segmented meter a la Unwiished - of course, the reason why it sucks in that game is because the levels are designed to have a constant boost, so you just mash the button, but if it was designed so that boost was a commitment for a few seconds, that could bring in some good timing and rhythm to the platforming.

The alternative is just making Boost a more limited resource, like in Colours. Not starting off with a full meter (which sort of ruins Generations from that perspective), and having to carefully ration it could work much better. 

[Ajavalo]

Sonic Colours Wii's implementation of the boost -limited resources you have to actively seek, rather than being everywhere- would be ideal... as long as the 3d sections aren't just long, empty corridors with zero challenge and zero exploration factor, as is the case in that game. With the level design of Modern Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill, however, some interesting and fun levels could surely be achieved.

[ChikoLad]

I feel like every time I come into this topic, people are just complaining about the boost.

Once again, I don't think the boost has anything inherently wrong with it. It hasn't always been executed perfectly, but when it was, it paid off.

I think the focus should be on fine-tuning Sonic's slower speed controls, and adding more kinds of threats that can hinder the boost that you have to deal with like in Unleashed.

That's assuming we are straight up getting boost gameplay.

[Manticore]

1 hour ago, ChikoLad said:

I feel like every time I come into this topic, people are just complaining about the boost.

Once again, I don't think the boost has anything inherently wrong with it. It hasn't always been executed perfectly, but when it was, it paid off.

I think the focus should be on fine-tuning Sonic's slower speed controls, and adding more kinds of threats that can hinder the boost that you have to deal with like in Unleashed.

That's assuming we are straight up getting boost gameplay.

Most hardcore Sonic fans are against Boost. It's the prevalent personal bias in the fandom nowadays, to go away from Boost and back to Adventure. Not that it's bad, but it's the predominate view.

I like both formulas, so I'm not bothered. I'd like to see a Adventure style Sonic game (but only if it played like Sonic's gameplay), but I loved Generations so I think this will be in safe hands.

[herefor1reason]

i think the problem people have with it is as long as the boost games continue to work as is (with sonic feeling more like a car than anything) the games will be fairly limited to sonic moving in a mostly straight line through corridors. the problem isn't really the boost itself, it's that sonic himself feels super heavy and sluggish to turn especially when not boosting since the drift becomes useless. if you play through generations without boosting at all (you can by the way, i've done it) it becomes pretty clear that it's got the potential to be an amazing platformer in it's own right without the need to boost, they just need to tweak sonics physics so he feels lighter and not like a car. that being said i do prefer the spindash to the boost. i think it's more satisfying and it makes more sense for sonic to do (being a hedgehog, curling into a ball is something he should be doing, i know he does when he jumps but still)

[Mad Convoy]

27 minutes ago, Manticore said:

Most hardcore Sonic fans are against Boost. It's the prevalent personal bias in the fandom nowadays, to go away from Boost and back to Adventure. Not that it's bad, but it's the predominate view.

I dunno if that's necessarily true. I find opinions on the Boost tend to be as varied as any other opinion in the Sonic fandom and it has predominance on some websites and not on others. On the Facebook pages I run, for example, Boost is a favorite amongst most of the participants. You also see people vouching for the Boost on official Sonic social media stuff. SSMB, however, I would definitely agree tends to be more biased towards the Adventure-styled stories and gameplay, especially stories like Sonic Unleashed and gameplay like Sonic in SA1. A forum culture having a bias for something is kind of inevitable though, and the bias hasn't reached the point of toxicity here, so like you, I don't see a problem with it.

Though I am seconding ChikoLad's notion that Sonic 2017 might not necessarily be a boost game, though the trailer seems to strongly point towards it.

[Manticore]

3 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

I dunno if that's necessarily true. I find opinions on the Boost tend to be as varied as any other opinion in the Sonic fandom and it has predominance on some websites and not on others. On the Facebook pages I run, for example, Boost is a favorite amongst most of the participants. You also see people vouching for the Boost on official Sonic social media stuff. SSMB, however, I would definitely agree tends to be more biased towards the Adventure-styled stories and gameplay, especially stories like Sonic Unleashed and gameplay like Sonic in SA1. A forum culture having a bias for something is kind of inevitable though, and since the bias hasn't reached the point of toxicity here, so like you, I don't see a problem with it.

I didn't say there was a problem with it.

And you are right that there a lot of people who like Boost, but I would say that the majority of hardcore fans want to go back to Adventure. It's not just here, it's all over the place. On virtually all forums, and I notice it on comment sections on virtually every internet space. You know, the whole 'Boost to Win' mentality,

If it isn't the prevailing view, it's at least easily one of the largest opinions.

[Mad Convoy]

Just now, Manticore said:

I didn't say there was a problem with it.

4 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

A forum culture having a bias for something is kind of inevitable though, and the bias hasn't reached the point of toxicity here, so like you, I don't see a problem with it.

Believe me, I know.

2 minutes ago, Manticore said:

And you are right that there a lot of people who like Boost, but I would say that the majority of hardcore fans want to go back to Adventure. It's not just here, it's all over the place. On virtually all forums, and I notice it on comment sections on virtually every internet space. You know, the whole 'Boost to Win' mentality,

If it isn't the prevailing view, it's at least easily one of the largest opinions.

I'd be careful with citing the boost to win mentality. I find that a fair amount of people who hold the boost to win mentality actually want to go back to Classic and want nothing to do with Adventure. Or want the boost to only be in 2D Sonic. Or think that all of the Modern Sonic formulas suck and that Sega needs a new plan. Honestly, a lot of the recent vouching for going back to the Adventure formula seems to be more of a reaction to the general public's increasing disdain for it than a reflection of the prevailing viewpoint in the hardcore fandom. I can't blame Adventure fans too much for this-- they've had to fight just to have people listen to them inform others about how their favorite games don't deserve mockery and that they are serious about their opinions, while Boost doesn't get nearly as much crap. And a lot of Classic and Boost fans view Sonic discussions on the internet as frustrating and pointless and thus don't participate at all in the public, instead opting to buy the games, merch, etc. and keep Sonic discussion in their friend groups. So it makes sense that Adventure fans would be more vocal than Boost and Classic fans-- despite the frustrations, they feel a larger obligation to defend themselves and their tastes. But that doesn't necessarily make them a majority-- I think Classic is still by far the predominant favorite, with boost coming in at a distant second.

It dawns on me that we're getting kind of off topic though. Sonic 2017 might not even be a boost game. I do like the new aesthetics in the game-- I can't wait to hear more about it.

[Blacklightning]

15 hours ago, Hyp3hat said:

Two things that could work are either the segmented meter a la Unwiished - of course, the reason why it sucks in that game is because the levels are designed to have a constant boost, so you just mash the button, but if it was designed so that boost was a commitment for a few seconds, that could bring in some good timing and rhythm to the platforming.

The alternative is just making Boost a more limited resource, like in Colours. Not starting off with a full meter (which sort of ruins Generations from that perspective), and having to carefully ration it could work much better. 

I meant to respond to this earlier, but it was late at night and I figured it would come out as an incoherent mess if I tried typing while I needed sleep.

I can't speak much for the Unwiished boost because I haven't played it, but even in bursts it still shares many of the same problems from what I can see - it holds priority over nearly every other move, destroys virtually everything, instantly sets your speed to max without delay or drawbacks, and despite the meter limitation still never seems like something you're ever left without just due to the fact that it refuels itself on rings. The boost in Colours was more balanced, admittedly, but also in a way that generally made it really unsatisfying to use most of the time, and that's kind of a cop-out if you ask me.

Key problem number 1 is that the boost has virtually no synergy with the rest of Sonic's moveset, and for the most part overrides it - there's almost no need to roll or slide to accelerate or to spindash to break back into a running start when the boost's speed gain is literally instantaneous, nor even to attack when it has an all-encompassing hitbox of its own. Ideally you'd want it to work hand in hand with the remainder of his moves so that the player has a reason to press anything other than X, and to allow for level design that actually accomodates it. A lot of people seem to gravitate towards Advance 2 boost lately for this reason, but personally I feel that scales too much towards high-level play, to the point that it only really shines at a professional speedrunning level.

My personal take on it is some crazy fusion of Unwiished, Adv2 and SA2B's speed boosts. By the latter, I mean the multiplayer mode - you get one special move every X rings and can only hold that one move until you use it, in this case using the boost and ditching the meter entirely. You get boost speed and hitboxes for the start of the boost ala Unwiished, then keep the leftover momentum sans hitboxes until you slow down, take a hit or run into a wall ala Advance 2. Tweak a few variables - rings needed for one boost, length of the initial boost etc - until there's actually incentive to roll and spindash and stuff to balance it out, and that's basically how I'd do it.

8 hours ago, Manticore said:

Most hardcore Sonic fans are against Boost. It's the prevalent personal bias in the fandom nowadays, to go away from Boost and back to Adventure. Not that it's bad, but it's the predominate view.

I assume this was at least in part directed towards me, but even if not I wanted to talk about this too because it represents a personal pet peeve of mine.

I hate - no, scratch that, fucking loathe - the idea of segregating gameplay traits into mutually exclusive camps like this. Not just because the styles aren't learning and adapting from each other, but because it further troubles the already desperate identity problem the franchise as a whole has already been developing ever since around Heroes or so. This idea that any given Sonic has to be strictly a Boost game or an Adventure game or a Classic game or a fucking hoverboarding game, complete with every caveat that has always weighed each and every one of them down at some point in their lives, is just maddening to me, as is the fandom's tendency to practically go to war on one another over which arbitary segregation of gameplay traits is somehow more deserving of everybody's time than every other arbitary segregation of gameplay traits that Sega throws out every generation or so and decides to throw out for another one without bothering to polish it.

Can somebody please tell me how the fuck it became so taboo to suggest a reasonable compromise between all facets of Sonic? To have just one identity that everybody can agree apon? Hell, to just have Sonic games that aren't saddled with one-trick-pony gimmicks all the time? I say just throw slick physics, homing attacks and an accessible speed mechanic into a big melting pot and play with it until it blends. I don't do "adventure" or "boost" or whatever the fad of the week is - all I want is for Sonic games to remember why they're Sonic games, and to be fun games to play because of it. Nothing more.

...besides, everyone already knows the classic games are the undisputed best and there is no saying otherwise =V

[Diogenes]

11 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Can somebody please tell me how the fuck it became so taboo to suggest a reasonable compromise between all facets of Sonic? To have just one identity that everybody can agree apon?

I like the spirit of it and all, but personally I think it's an unattainable ideal. Even if you take pieces from all different kinds of games, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll capture the spirit of all those games at once.

That's not to say strictly separating all the different kinds of gameplay is the right thing to do, though. Sonic Team should be learning something from all of them. I just don't think there's some convenient solution that everyone is going to get on board with.

[Darinian]

44 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

, instantly sets your speed to max without delay or drawbacks, and despite the meter limitation still never seems like something you're ever left without just due to the fact that it refuels itself on rings.

Oh no trust me when unwiished's homing attack and boost is mapped on the same movement there is one drawback, which is boosting instead of homing attacking

[Blacklightning]

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I like the spirit of it and all, but personally I think it's an unattainable ideal. Even if you take pieces from all different kinds of games, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll capture the spirit of all those games at once.

That wasn't the intention per se - a game of that kind would probably have it's own "spirit" if you could call it that, and I'd happily take that. It doesn't have to be a perfect representation of everything Sonic has ever done, just have a little bit of everything most people can agree on and be better off for it. Continuing to polish the thing after the fact instead of dumping it 3-4 games later would help, too.

8 minutes ago, Flare Sakitha Sol said:

Oh no trust me when unwiished's homing attack and boost is mapped on the same movement there is one drawback, which is boosting instead of homing attacking

This is prevalent in Unleashed HD too, and it's more a dumb design flaw in general that... really doesn't have anything to do with the Boost at all. It's far from an isolated case, too - SA2 and '06 both did this as well by mapping the bounce and light dash to the same button, with every bit as much possibility to kill you for it if not moreso. It's kinda weird that it took until Generations to find out they shouldn't be mapping conflicting functions to the same button like that.