Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Graystripe2000]

3 minutes ago, JezMM said:

It looks like there may be crossover between the maps, with some shared sections, but the OC and Modern Sonic will have their own routes through the stages, that skip areas that aren't built to accomodate both.

Kinda like what was done with Sonic 3 &Knuckles stages, basically.

[Indigo Rush]

Just now, Joseph Mello said:

I heard that the OC will have it's separate mode like Knuckles in Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

Where'd you hear that?

[JezMM]

5 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

It could be, but as of now the only difference we saw was in an automated section. Besides, the alternate routes we saw at the bottom must be designed to accomodate both characters too, so I think that there's a good chance the whole level'll be like that. Sonic has a grind rail at that spot because he has no grappling hook.

Rewatching the footage, it is very clear they do end up in the same place after that moment (you can see robots spawned in the next area as Sonic grinds round), but I am guessing it's going to be a case where they use props to fill in the empty spots with slower content for the OC, like the weird acts in Colours and missions in Generations.

[Multikaris]

21 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Just because I've been emotional the past two days doesn't mean I've been irrational.

Regardless, all the character creator is doing, with the information we know, is adding a bunch of surprisingly boring base edits of Modern Sonic to the game that don't take advantage of the engine or even their individual species. This is amazingly dumb in light of the fact that we have characters with established personalities and better powers and move sets just sitting on a shelf collecting dust. It's not paying its way from even a conceptual angle. There's also the fact that they're presenting it in a main line Sonic game, meaning there is potential for this dumb concept to worm its way into the games proper as a permanent staple like Classic Sonic and the Wisps did. It's symptomatic of the unnecessary compartmentalization of game mechanics that makes these games feel disjointed and Sonic Team look like they don't have any real control over this ship anymore.

I also don't know why we keep being told to ignore the haters if we in any way care about the franchise's reputation as a whole. I don't want it to be seen as a laughing stock and I don't know why others don't care that it is.

To me, it even feels like a lose/lose situation

 

* If the character is well-received, we get them to replace all the other characters. 

* If they are poorly received, they might curtail the thought of the other characters completely. 

 

Then again if Classic blows (almost certain) we could still get a chance in the absence of Classic. 

[Sonikko]

Just now, JezMM said:

Rewatching the footage, it is very clear they do end up in the same place after that moment (you can see robots spawned in the next area as Sonic grinds round), but I am guessing it's going to be a case where they use props to fill in the empty spots with slower content for the OC, like the weird acts in Colours and missions in Generations.

Yeah, I guess, but that leaves Modern Sonic with the bare empty routes that were the Colours levels without Wisps. I really can't understand their design decisions with this game.

[JezMM]

Just now, Sonikko said:

Yeah, I guess, but that leaves Modern Sonic with the bare empty routes that were the Colours levels without Wisps. I really can't understand their design decisions with this game.

I'd love to disagree but when I think about it, we've seen very little to suggest we're getting levels as meaty as Generations again, it all seems very Colours/Generations Green Hill so far, so I'm just hoping for the best at this point.

[Graystripe2000]

11 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

I heard that the OC will have it's separate mode like Knuckles in Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

Now that I think of it, I DID read somewhere that something like that was the case but I don't remember where. 

[JosepHenry]

I can't find the sources, so ignore what I said.

 

But that doesn't seem impossible though.

[Scar]

Thinking about it, a Mascot Platformer with customisable characters just isn't right. Allowing a player to create their character in a mascot platformer effectively ruins any hope of creating character, which is a major part of a mascot platformers identity. Take a look at any of them. Mario, Crash, Sonic, Jak & Daxter, Banjoe-Kazooie etc. are all built around their titular characters, putting an <insert your character her> in place of them would have killed any of their chances at success.

Yeah Forces isn't replacing Sonic with the fan character, but it still feels wrong. Its sidelining actual characters with an empty void of a character that you can't even properly self-insert cause its a platformer not an RPG (or is it...? Fuck knows anymore)

I dunno, this is just a random rant.

 

[Milo]

7 hours ago, Scar said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, in trying to appeal to everyone Forces will end up appealing to nobody. Oh I'm sure it'll sell well enough. It looks pretty and parents will buy it for their kids, but 06 sold over a million copies - didn't make it good.

This game screams of focus-tested garbage. 

Just want to know who and why. Was it Sonic Team, was it Iizuka, was it some dumbass marketing decision to make a game this incoherent? Don't care about the answer just want to know the reason for this. I don't want the game to fail commercially because I still want Sega to try making 3D Sonic games and not let it fade into sidescrolling obscurity, but I do want there to be some critical backlash, cause that's the only fucking way they'll learn.

Sonic 2006 didn't even crack 900K in the first two fiscal quarters of its release. Said it earlier with Kuzu's post, but consumer trust in a brand can only go so far if your product is bad or your legacy has been long suffered from a lack of quality. Boom was supposed to be a new spin on Sonic's image, and that ended up bombing harder than anything Sega/Sonic Team had ever done with the series.

Agreed with the rest of your post otherwise, except I honestly think Sonic Team is well past the way of learning. That's not to say I think they are a terrible studio that should be shut down, they have great artists, musicians, and graphic designers. But their game designers and studio heads constantly seem to operate on a wavelength outside everyone else and they keep singlehandedly holding the games back from being great to either being "good enough" or plain mediocre (alongside the rare occasion of being outright bad); and unfortunately those segments of the studio don't seem to be changing their ways or being replaced anytime soon. The studio has --and from the looks of Forces, I'd say still is-- been horribly inept at managing Sonic as an IP; and while I'm probably going to get some disagreement over this, I do think its been high time for a while for Sega to divorce them from the Sonic IP and hand it over to another internal division or Sega-owned studio.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

My opinion is still the same. I like character creators, and this one looks good. I just think the gameplay looks too slow or clunky right now. Removing the delay on the grappling hook would help.

[Graystripe2000]

2 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Sonic 2006 didn't even crack 900K in the first two fiscal quarters of its release.

Source? Because I don't remember that being mentioned anywhere.

[Chris Knopps]

So...

Anybody notice how this game actually IS bringing back missions...?

It's there with the World Map icon in the Character Creator scenes...

I guess there's one reason to like the game, Adventure 2 and Unleashed along with Generations did that much right at least. I've always loved missions in the Sonic franchise.

[Scar]

6 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Sonic 2006 didn't even crack 900K in the first two fiscal quarters of its release. Said it earlier with Kuzu's post, but consumer trust in a brand can only go so far if your product is bad or your legacy has been long suffered from a lack of quality. Boom was supposed to be a new spin on Sonic's image, and that ended up bombing harder than anything Sega/Sonic Team had ever done with the series.

Agreed with the rest of your post otherwise, except I honestly think Sonic Team is well past the way of learning. That's not to say I think they are a terrible studio that should be shut down, they have great artists, musicians, and graphic designers; but their game designers and studio heads constantly seem to operate on a wavelength outside everyone else and they keep singlehandedly holding the games back from being great to either being "good enough" or plain mediocre (alongside the rare occasion of being outright bad); and unfortunately those segments of the studio don't seem to be changing their ways or being replaced anytime soon. The studio has --and from the looks of Forces, I'd say still is-- been horribly inept at managing Sonic as an IP; and I'm probably going to get some disagreement for this, but I do think its been high time for a while for Sega to divorce them from the Sonic IP and hand it over to another internal division or Sega-owned studio.

Which is why I want to know where the rot is. Is it Iizuka? Is it someone above him? Is it the team itself? Where did the bad ideas come from? Sonic Lost World while a pretty poor game had the correct intent. They wanted to create a new paradigm for what a Sonic game should be, that is more sustainable than the Boost formula and allows for more creative game design. With LW's critical flop though they've basically regressed to what looks worse than Unleashed. Why? Why after all the progress did they go backwards? I can't imagine the team themselves nor even the perennial boogeyman Iizuka would want something like this...

Its why I think this is some dumb focus-tested, marketing department approved nonsense, but hey you never know. Could be that its Iizuka and other leaders at Sonic Team that are the problem. I dunno. But I want to.

 

[Chris Knopps]

9 minutes ago, Scar said:

Which is why I want to know where the rot is. Is it Iizuka? Is it someone above him? Is it the team itself? Where did the bad ideas come from? Sonic Lost World while a pretty poor game had the correct intent. They wanted to create a new paradigm for what a Sonic game should be, that is more sustainable than the Boost formula and allows for more creative game design. With LW's critical flop though they've basically regressed to what looks worse than Unleashed. Why? Why after all the progress did they go backwards? I can't imagine the team themselves nor even the perennial boogeyman Iizuka would want something like this...

Its why I think this is some dumb focus-tested, marketing department approved nonsense, but hey you never know. Could be that its Iizuka and other leaders at Sonic Team that are the problem. I dunno. But I want to.

 

That's what happens when they try to be the very thing they created the franchise to be the opposite of in every sense of the word from enemies, to design, to music, etc.

Had they not obsessed over Mario and Nintendo consumers they could have made something out of Lost World's direction that was actually worthwhile, with the only stage I feel proving this being, sadly, the Zelda stage in the game.

Gotta get dem Mario boyeez though!

People aren't going to buy into some uninspired poor-man's version of Mario, (or Splatoon as some have been calling Forces out as trying to imitate), they buy into the Sonic franchise because it's Sonic, doing its own thing in its own way more often than not until lately where they just want to do whatever the others are doing that seems popular enough and think they can make work for Sonic.

[Milo]

12 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Source? Because I don't remember that being mentioned anywhere.

Sega's fiscal year 2007 IR report. The game had only sold 870K within the fiscal year of its release, with 550K in Sega's third quarter (when the game was first released, the PS3 version had been delayed during this time, so the game was available only on the 360) and an additional 320K in the fourth quarter (when the PS3 version finally saw release).

People like to point to the 360 version of the game getting a "Platinum (Family) Hits" label as proof it sold well, but when you look at the actual numbers, the barometer / sales milestone for obtaining that label seems to be pretty low in reality.

[Sonikko]

It sold almost 900k on a single console within the fiscal year of release, which ended roughly 3-4 months after release. Let's not forget it was one of the worst reviewed games in the history of gaming, up there with Amiga ET as far as mocking goes. And it still sold almost 900k on a single console, and passed the million mark when it released on PS3.

Boom is a similar occasion, you could argue that people bought 2006 just for the lulz, but then why didn't they buy Boom too, since it appears to be even more broken than 2006 is.

The brand just lost its former power, imho.

[Tracker_TD]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

Boom is a similar occasion, you could argue that people bought 2006 just for the lulz, but then why didn't they buy Boom too, since it appears to be even more broken than 2006 is.

Let me tell you about a little failure that we in the business like to call: The Wii U. 

[Zeer]

46 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Where'd you hear that?

I assume they might've got that impression from the Destructoid article.

Quote

Back in October, before Sonic Forces was even named, Sega said that this game would have three different gameplay styles. They were: modern Sonic, classic Sonic, and a third unrevealed style. This is the third one, a mode that's separate from what Sonic does on his own time. Finally, a way for Sonic fans to express themselves.

https://www.destructoid.com/sonic-forces-will-have-customizable-playable-characters-436357.phtml

I don't think any other site describes it as a separate mode, so it might just be weird wording.

[Sonikko]

Still, less than 300k? The Wii U had around 15m users (not sure about the actual number but it was around 13-14m at least some years ago) and the attach rate was very high. The game was hyped a lot by SEGA itself, so, people knew about it, and just decided to ignore it because it was not worth it at all. The fact it was on Wii U is even worse, because the console had very few games, and still people decided to skip a new Sonic release because it was not worth it at all.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

It sold almost 900k on a single console within the fiscal year of release, which ended roughly 3-4 months after release. Let's not forget it was one of the worst reviewed games in the history of gaming, up there with Amiga ET as far as mocking goes. And it still sold almost 900k on a single console, and passed the million mark when it released on PS3.

Boom is a similar occasion, you could argue that people bought 2006 just for the lulz, but then why didn't they buy Boom too, since it appears to be even more broken than 2006 is.

The brand just lost its former power, imho.

Because not only is Rise of Lyric a bad game, they patched the few things wrong with it that actually made it fun.

 

[Meta77]

4 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

It sold almost 900k on a single console within the fiscal year of release, which ended roughly 3-4 months after release. Let's not forget it was one of the worst reviewed games in the history of gaming, up there with Amiga ET as far as mocking goes. And it still sold almost 900k on a single console, and passed the million mark when it released on PS3.

I'm the history of gaming lol not even close. Duke did worse. It was panned but not that heavily

But it's sales were impressive. I know I bought 3 copies

[Milo]

21 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Let me tell you about a little failure that we in the business like to call: The Wii U. 

Wii U was a huge flop, but it has a fair amount of million sellers, and said games for the system do hold a relatively high attach rate. Super Mario 3D World is the worst-selling 3D Mario title in the series, but it still sold over five million units on the console-- both of the sales of the first two Boom games combined barely made up 1/10th of that title's sales. Moreover, the Wii U's poor installbase only applies for Rise of Lyric, the 3DS Boom games were on a vastly larger and more healthy installbase and they still bombed as well.

The failure of the Boom games were a perfect storm of bad quality and a diminished brand, in addition to a weak installbase concerning RoL.

[Graystripe2000]

22 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Still, less than 300k? The Wii U had around 15m users (not sure about the actual number but it was around 13-14m at least some years ago) and the attach rate was very high. The game was hyped a lot by SEGA itself, so, people knew about it, and just decided to ignore it because it was not worth it at all. The fact it was on Wii U is even worse, because the console had very few games, and still people decided to skip a new Sonic release because it was not worth it at all.

Sonic Generations sold 1.85 million across PS3, 360, PC, and 3DS. 1/4 of 1.85 million is 462,500, meaning that's how much it sold on each individual platform. And each of those systems has to have a high install base by then, especially the PS3, 360, and PC.

 

[Sonikko]

This franchise has seen its own sales gradually going down in the past 20 years, I'm not making this up. 

My point was that Sonic 2006 was a very bad game, and it managed to sell 900k in 4 months on a single console, 5 years later Generations (which is regarded as the best 3D game out there, and the 20th anniversary game, so a big title with lots of promotion) sold 1.9m across 4 consoles, which is barely double. The game after that sold 600k copies on the Wii U, yeah it was a dying console and all that, but Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8,  Smash and many other broke the 5m mark. 

There's simply no excuse for Sonic to be selling so few games except that the brand doesn't have the same power and importance it had 10 years ago.