Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Red Hot Jack]

To those who are complaining...

Everyone has the right to say anything, everyone has different tastes, and it's acceptable, but you guys are angry that the boost is back (and nerfed), that the wisps and power-ups are back and that Classic Sonic is back. Basically a lot of elements that were proven successful in recent games.

....So what exactly do you want from a main Sonic game? What should have Sonic Team done to make you happy?

[Waveshocker Sigma]

7 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

It's relevant, sure.

It's nowhere near as relevant as Sonic 2, which is what KKM said (I guess you cherry-picked his words, lol). Advance is great, but even then it's not much of a patch on the Classic titles honestly, especially as the series went on. 

It's relevant in the fact that it's a good game in the series and in the end, that's all that actually matters. Advance isn't lesser than 2 just because it doesn't pop off a million nostalgia boners everytime someone brings it up.

However, I prefer Advance over 1, 2 and CD, so what do I know?

2 minutes ago, The KKM said:

Is Sonic Labyrinth as relevant to the franchise as Sonic 2, then?

The Dreamcast-era side games count for something, yes. They're generally fun and were the best part about it. They're still not the mainline releases, the games made with the biggest budget, by the main team (Sonic Team), for the big home consoles.

 

EDIT: I'll go as far as saying that Rise of Lyric, the only Sonic game in Nintendo's main console for a few years, is more relevant to the franchise, sadly, than Sonic Advance.

If relevancy has to do with how often it's brought up and remembered, then pretty much any "bad" Sonic game could be considered close, technically.

And I'm pretty sure Lost World was on the Wii U before Rise of Lyric, so it's not the "only" Sonic game on there. Not to mention it's easily more relevant due to people still being divisive about it while RoL just gets ignored and swept under the rug, as it should.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I'll admit I forgot Lost World entirely was in the Wii U, being that I've played it the most on the PC Sorry about that

[Chris Knopps]

11 minutes ago, Josh said:

With your logic, we may as well not praise games that have resonated with people and learn from them at all. Because the public opinion doesn't matter, it's all opinions and NOBODY's negative opinions about Sonic Adventure games are valid because you say so. 


Let's go by sales numbers only and make every game like Mario and Sonic at the Olympics. That's clearly Sonic Team's outstanding effort right there.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Of course good titles should be praised. It's a matter of taking the right feedback from folks opinions, which Mania and... In a way Forces is doing fairly well.

Forces... Not perfectly... But well... It's trying.

Oh, everyone's opinions are valid, just not factual. People are welcome to complain about the Adventure games but, no, they aren't bad. Not the best, but not bad. Hence the demand for its Sonic/Shadow play style, the Chao, and yes, even the plot/tone ala the first Adventure at least, usually... Mixed with an Unleashed combination for a good sweet spot from what I've seen. The second game... The way I've seen it most take or leave that one.

7 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

A yes, the word that gets thrown out by every body who doesn't have a substantial argument; doesn't matter how informed the person saying said opinion is, it's just an opinion so it doesn't matter what they say :V

People don't just pull opinions out of their ass you know, they're usually based on information and usually grounded within the realms of facts.

 

So saying "Every era has it's hit or misses" is a baseless opinion because you comparing titles that aren't even equivalent to each other; like, who cares if there were a few bad spin offs in the 90's? Like who honestly cares about stuff like Sonic Blast or Sonic Drift? However, a mainstream title that is meant to represent the series as a whole, carries far more weight to it than a random spin off.

It's the same deal with Rise of Lyric, it just gets more flak because Sega hyped it to the moon and back and pushed it as the next big thing.

 

So yea, saying every era is an equivalent to each other doesn't carry any meaning because the titles you are comparing aren't equivalent in the slightest. I don't give a shit about Spin offs on a system that didn't sell well, I care a lot about main titles that are in the mainstream.

In other words...

"Stop opening this can of worms, please shut up."

Critics say this is good - opinion

Critics say this is bad - opinion

If a critic hates one thing, another person might love it. A critic loves something, someone else might hate it. For a critics words to be fact, 100% of the populous must agree and...

Never the case.

I'm not even going to humor the idea that Rise of Lyric wasn't intended to be mainstream when we consider the general push for BOOM initially... Which you just mentioned yourself.

Okay... Well, you not caring doesn't matter, that doesn't make it hold any less ground on the equivalency of successes and mistakes in every era.

(Edit)

I'd like to point out how I'm emphasizing the mistakes AND success of every era, I'm not playing favorites here. I don't like the handhelds of the Genesis era much, nor the console spin-off games from that time.

I don't like Advance 3 or Rush Adventure, or 06 much, (do love Shadow though)

I don't like BOOM in general or Lost World, save Fire and Ice, that was good.

But whether I love or hate specific entries, it's like I said, the only factual thing we have to go by are sales numbers, and again, they tend to balance the era's out fairly equally.

 

 

[Tracker_TD]

6 minutes ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

It's relevant in the fact that it's a good game in the series and in the end, that's all that actually matters. Advance isn't lesser than 2 just because it doesn't pop off a million nostalgia boners everytime someone brings it up.

However, I prefer Advance over 1, 2 and CD, so what do I know?

No, it's not all that matters. Sonic 2 is more relevant/important because it established a more solid formula for Classic-style games from that point onward. Sonic 1 was the foundation obviously, but 2 added the basic level design features and greater amount of speed-driven aspects that people came to love the style for, and that was built on further with Sonic 3.

Advance's most relevance is being the first Sonic game for a Nintendo system, which is perfectly valid; but I don't see that factor making it as relevant as a series defining game like 2. And this is all bearing in mind I love Sonic 1. 

[DarkRula]

In terms of eras, I tend to go by console generations. Exception being the classic games, since no main games came for the Saturn.
So for me - Classic, Dreamcast, Modern
A new console generation has been upon us since Lost World, so by my word, we are in a new Modern era. Aside from giving it the 'third' tag though, I have no idea of a name.

Chaotix being in this game is always a plus for me. Sounds like more chance for some interesting character interactions, if they go that way. Otherwise, great looking world, and a great looking piece of footage. I expect this'll be the tutorial stage, since it has that Windmill Isle Act 0 [I think it was called that] vibe.

[Indigo Rush]

This era trite could have been avoided entirely if they just called Classic Sonic "pre-pubescent" Sonic.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

This era trite could have been avoided entirely if they just called Classic Sonic "pre-pubescent" Sonic.

For some reason that doesn't sit well with me, it's awkward. XD

[Marcello]

Just now, Indigo Rush said:

This era trite could have been avoided entirely if they just called Classic Sonic "pre-pubescent" Sonic.

I don't think so. People were already splitting the eras before Generations. It didn't take SEGA calling Classic Sonic by that name.

[Indigo Rush]

Remind me never to make a joke ever again.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

13 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'm not even going to humor the idea that Rise of Lyric wasn't intended to be mainstream when we consider the general push for BOOM initially... Which you just mentioned yourself.

Okay then you've really got the facts twisted in your view since that was actually the case with 06 that was actually confirmed as intended to be the new mainstream face, not Boom.

Not to mention the fact they openly reassured everyone that Modern Sonic wasn't going anywhere during Boom's marketing.

So yeah, you're fighting against the actual facts to try and justify inanely comparing a spin-off to the mainstream disaster that is 06 when we actually boil down to the facts available.

[Milo]

23 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Equating sales to quality and balance between how the series has run is a fool's errand when you consider 06 was a Platinum seller. 

Sonic 2006 only did about 870K in sales, come the end of Sega's fiscal year (five months after the game was released). Maybe it eventually dragged it's butt over one million in later months, but the critical drubbing definitely took a toll on the game's sales performance.

With that said, that's not to say your point is wrong. In similar timeframes, Shadow the Hedgehog was able to sell slightly over two million copies; and Sonic Unleashed, for all of the flak it got regarding the Werehog, sold 2.45 million (ironically, this makes it Sonic Team's best-selling game since the first Adventure on the Dreamcast, which had hit 2.5 million in sales by June 2006).

[Nepenthe]

4 minutes ago, Chameleon94 said:

To those who are complaining...

Everyone has the right to say anything, everyone has different tastes, and it's acceptable, but you guys are angry that the boost is back (and nerfed), that the wisps and power-ups are back and that Classic Sonic is back. Basically a lot of elements that were proven successful in recent games.

....So what exactly do you want from a main Sonic game? What should have Sonic Team done to make you happy?

People want a game that trades some of the speed for a more satisfying physics system and a greater use of true-blue 3D versus 2.5D. If we were gonna have boost gameplay back, nerfing the speed almost kinda misses the point (although I personally admit I'm warming back up to what I've seen in the HQ footage).

People are also feeling Wisps have worn out their welcome because they either lock basic character abilities and interesting level design behind limited power-ups (Cyan Laser is kinda redundant with the Light Speed Dash, and instead of using Green Hover to slowly float along... why not allow Sonic to be able to achieve some vertical heights or cross large gaps using his own speed and environment), or they're just kinda useless (No one likes Blue Cube.... No one.) On top of this, Yacker said good-bye at the end of Colors and they all presumably went home, so why are they still here?

Classic Sonic is basically just the most palatable extension of the problem people have had with the 3D games for awhile- he divides the focus up for little reason other than extending playtime. It would be one thing if his physics were a nice spiritual approximation of the stuff we're seeing in Mania, or if he'd have a thematic or narrative purpose for returning, but they're not, and he arguably doesn't. So really, what's the point of him getting top billing and not, say, Tails or Knuckles? On top of that, his very existence since Generations has solidified a problem with Sega basically honoring the franchise's split identity as something objective in a really terrible comrpomise. It's one thing to have modern 3D games like the boost games alongside more classic games like Mania where you're theoretically satisfying "both sides" of the aisle by making disparate games that also don't serve to undermine the validity of the other or play directly to fanbase nonsense. They're just different styles of the same character. But Sega is literally saying Classic Sonic is a distinct entity separate from Modern Sonic with his own distinct gameplay style, as if Modern Sonic isn't allowed to roll around or Classic Sonic isn't allowed to boost.............. Isn't that really weird? No other franchise does this.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

7 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

No, it's not all that matters. Sonic 2 is more relevant/important because it established a more solid formula for Classic-style games from that point onward. Sonic 1 was the foundation obviously, but 2 added the basic level design features and greater amount of speed-driven aspects that people came to love the style for, and that was built on further with Sonic 3.

Advance's most relevance is being the first Sonic game for a Nintendo system, which is perfectly valid; but I don't see that factor making it as relevant as a series defining game like 2. And this is all bearing in mind I love Sonic 1. 

Okay, now that's a lot better explained versus what was said before. Crystal clear.

Fine. If that's what you mean, then I get it.

[Marcello]

Changing the subject a bit, I think I said a while back I wished the Homing Attack (Maybe I was agreeing with someone over it, I don't remember >_>) would carry some momentum after hitting an enemy similar to how the balloons work in Rooftop Run in Generations. Looking at the footage, it sadly doesn't seem to do that.

Hopefully, the Jump Dash at least doesn't take your momentum away.

[Tracker_TD]

4 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Changing the subject a bit, I think I said a while back I wished the Homing Attack (Maybe I was agreeing with someone over it, I don't remember >_>) would carry some momentum after hitting an enemy similar to how the balloons work in Rooftop Run in Generations. Looking at the footage, it sadly doesn't seem to do that.

Hopefully, the Jump Dash at least doesn't take your momentum away.

It looks like Sonic's got his flip from Lost World back instead of a jump dash, or some sort of fusion. At least, that's how it appears to me; and it doesn't appear to take your momentum, thankfully. 

Also looking at this again, it looks like Sonic might be able to boost, jump while boosting, and maintain it. Maybe that was the case in the other boost games, I've not played Generations in ages lol. I seem to recall it not being very effective though...

[Chris Knopps]

Wait... DOESN'T the homing attack maintain momentum?

I thought the boost games did this better than Lost World did but... maybe my brain really is shut off today.

[Marcello]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Wait... DOESN'T the homing attack maintain momentum?

I thought the boost games did this better than Lost World did but... maybe my brain really is shut off today.

 

Outside of the balloons, I don't think any HA has done that. But I liked it and wished it would've been implemented to (mostly) every target.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

It looks like Sonic's got his flip from Lost World back instead of a jump dash, or some sort of fusion. At least, that's how it appears to me; and it doesn't appear to take your momentum, thankfully. 

While I really don't like the Lost World flip, I am glad that it's a least keeping the momentum going.

I'd still rather not have the Jump Dash be gone, though. That was one of the things I didn't like about Colors. Sure, you have the one you could use if you didn't have any Boost...but that was if you didn't have any Boost.

[Tracker_TD]

Official upload of the main theme.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Outside of the balloons, I don't think any HA has done that. But I liked it and wished it would've been implemented to (mostly) every target.

Huh... I guess that's what I was thinking about then...

My bad...

It wouldn't be too hard to implement the balloon momentum into enemy contacts would it?

[Toa Axis]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Huh... I guess that's what I was thinking about then...

My bad...

It wouldn't be too hard to implement the balloon momentum into enemy contacts would it?

It shouldn't be, really. I'd much prefer that to the momentum stopping homing attacks we have now (well, have had for a while).

[Wraith]

23 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'd like to point out how I'm emphasizing the mistakes AND success of every era, I'm not playing favorites here. I don't like the handhelds of the Genesis era much, nor the console spin-off games from that time.

I don't like Advance 3 or Rush Adventure, or 06 much, (do love Shadow though)

I don't like BOOM in general or Lost World, save Fire and Ice, that was good.

But whether I love or hate specific entries, it's like I said, the only factual thing we have to go by are sales numbers, and again, they tend to balance the era's out fairly equally.

 

If you don't see the problem with using sales numbers as a metric for something like this there's actually no point in continuing this conversation

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Toa Axis said:

It shouldn't be, really. I'd much prefer that to the momentum stopping homing attacks we have now (well, have had for a while).

The programming for it should literally be right there.

Of course, I'm thinking about it from a copy and paste debugging kind of mindset.

[Toa Axis]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

The programming for it should literally be right there.

Of course, I'm thinking about it from a copy and paste debugging kind of mindset.

Right. Things in game development that may seem simple have the tendency to be complicated, but in regards to how things interact with the homing attack, I don't see why it would be difficult to do in the slightest.

But I'm not a programmer, so who knows.