Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[FriendBot]

I don't see myself speedrunning Sonic games a whole lot even though I do love the sense of thrill of going as fast as possible and getting the best time. The only games in the series I've ever bothered to speedrun was Rivals 2 and Shattered Crystal/Fire & Ice.

But just because I don't really care for it doesn't mean I don't want it there and besides if Mania does have the 30-second trials, we might get a continuation of Johnny and Clement going at one another just like the ol' Gens days in Classic City Escape.

[JezMM]

I actually feel 30 second trials would work better here than they did in Generations due to the abundance of scripted sequences in the opening seconds of each stage.

They could even go a step further and optimise the game mode so the start point for each one is carefully chosen to give the widest scope for choosing your path, rather than every stage just being from the start.

 

 

This isn't necessarily a request for Mania but rather Sonic games generally - I don't really do much with the time attacks due to how tucked away they are.  It'd be cool if the game stealth downloaded the latest leaderboards when you turned it on or even as you play the stage, then at the score tally it could tell you, out of your friends list, who the next player below and above you is.  If you're below everyone it could still compliment you by saying how many players worldwide you managed to beat the time/score of.

[Indigo Rush]

9 minutes ago, Azoo said:

Though I also wondered if an arcade mode esque "time extend" mode would be fun too. Like, there's a set timer countdown upon starting the stage, and then there's monitors (or checkpoints?) that extend your time. If you move as quickly as the game expects from you, you'll make it to each in good rhythm and beat the level.

IDK, just musing around at this point. :v

I want this.

[TheOcelot]

I think a friendly speed-running competition between Stadium & Retro members could be a blast.

Spoiler

Friendly? Not bloody likely :V

I'd prefer speed-running a whole act over a thirty second trial because it requires more skill/mastery of the level and is thus more rewarding. 

I'll admit that speed-running straight to the end of a stage doesn't impress me much. Gets boring after a while. I prefer taking my time, exploring the stages to death. The art of perfection of collecting as many rings as possible without ever losing any/never getting hit, getting a massive score and a healthy life-count. This is what impresses me, I'm a perfectionist. *Shrugs* maybe I'm weird that way... to each there own.

What I really want is the two player vs mode (online & local) which plays just like Sonic 2's which was so fucking fun. You know; Item boxes, score, rings, total rings and first passed the finish post. Stealth & Taxman have really got to bring this back. Just imagine racing through Studiopolis against each other? Oops, I started drooling......again

At least this way I get to collect stuff as well as go fast which would keep me happy.

[The Deleter]

As far as speedrunning options go in Generations, I'm sort of "eh" on the 30 second trials. If you're going to sit down, boot up the game, and compete against players, why not go for just the normal speedruns that offer more longevity and opportunity for all that trouble? Or in the case of Mania, why not just race each other in multi-player? It feels kinda redundant when you have those other modes to choose from.

... If Mania ever makes it to mobile in any way, though, I'd definitely be down for it existing in the first place. Been playing the Sonic Cd remaster on my new phone a lot recently, and my absolute favorite aspect of it is the time trial mode, and the fact that the stages last only 30 seconds long in the first place. Makes it a fantastic pick-up-and-play mode, and I'd definitely love to get the same from Mania in some way, especially considering how long the game apparently will be otherwise.

[expansivelovestories]

1 hour ago, Slingerland said:

Can we, like... stop talking about this?

Let's talk about my speeeedruuuunnnning questions I proposed, please. What would work? 30-second trials? Eeeehhhh?

It would be interesting if some of the bonus or special stages had 2D speedrunning as the mechanic! 

With the Saturn era technology mentioned as an influence, the special stages may once again be 3D?

So, 2D speedrunning as one of the star post bonus stage formats (which isn't clear yet whether these exist, but hopefully they do and there will be a few formats as in 3K) could be incredible!    Maybe that is where some of the other zones not in the main game could be placed?  

I do think the zone design visible in Mirage Saloon and Studiopolis indicates they are considering speedruns and making them newly challenging in fun ways; there are definitely areas that will be tricky for even experienced speedrunners to get through without lots of practice.  

[Indigo Rush]

I'll also mention that I didn't really care much about speedrunning until the remasters of Sonic 1, 2 and CD had dedicated modes for them. I played each level well over three times to fill in the empty gaps and to get my best times on there. I hope that returns.

[Psychicmoose103]

Speed running modes would be amazing to have! It would be fun to go against friends to see who can get the fastest time!

 

Since we are definitely not getting the second half of Sonic 3 (Carnival Night, Ice Cap, Launch Base) and I think we will be getting Hydrocity (as it seems to be more popular than the other two (and I love it :3)) What would you guys rather see in Mania, Marble Garden Zone or Angel Island Zone?

Personally, I would rather have Marble Garden, since I love the music, but Angel Island Zone is fine too.

What are your thoughts?

[Indigo Rush]

If Hydrocity Zone is a given and we're to expect one other Sonic 3 level, I'd pick Marble Garden. We already have Green Hill for the tropical level, and I'd like to see more of what Marble Garden as a place has hidden in its ruins. I'm confident we'd see something fantastic.

[expansivelovestories]

1 hour ago, Psychicmoose103 said:

Since we are definitely not getting the second half of Sonic 3 (Carnival Night, Ice Cap, Launch Base) and I think we will be getting Hydrocity (as it seems to be more popular than the other two (and I love it :3)) What would you guys rather see in Mania, Marble Garden Zone or Angel Island Zone?

Personally, I would rather have Marble Garden, since I love the music, but Angel Island Zone is fine too.

What are your thoughts?

That is a good point; beyond the copyright issues, even the later three zones themselves aren't as conducive to being made into new experiences, partially because more happened in them already.  There are those mountains behind Launch Base which are quite interesting, but that would be a new zone entirely! 

Hydrocity and Marble Garden could have plenty added to them or different locations visited. 

There is certainly an area on the surface between Angel Island and Marble Garden that is missed in the original game due to the characters accessing Hydrocity instead.  What would be there? Would it combine traits of two or even all three zones along with many new ones?  

[Blacklightning]

I still advocate that I'd be totally fine with a rendition of SA1's Icecap theme in lieu of either of the original two.

But if we're compromising anyway, Marble Garden and Hydrocity are fine.

[Indigo Rush]

On the topic of speedrunning ideas...

We have the 30 second challenges...

Ghost racing

Online leaderboards

@Azoo's arcade mode idea (beating the game on a time limit with checkpoints/monitors to serve as time bonus ala OutRun) (I'd also like to add, those clocks in Sonic Generations' mission mode had a fun little sound effect)

How about maybe a ring attack mode? I don't know if I mentioned this already, but why not have something similar to the 30 second challenge or something, but you're tasked with collecting as many rings as possible in a particular level? Add a score attack mode, and you'd have a mode for every counter on the top left corner of the HUD.

Oh, and to answer your earlier question @Slingerland, I think having it by the act where it ends with the goalpost like in Sonic 1 and 2 and have the bosses occupy their own special boss rush mode may fit the best of both worlds, or maybe have an option to do either? That's a good question.

[The Deleter]

Well if we're going that far with modes, shout out to NSMBU's challenge mode over here. Out of all the modes that series had, that was the most fun post-game content I've ever played in a Mario game, and it was pretty much barebones precision obstacles courses.

Of course, Sonic doesn't have gameplay as precise a Mario, but if it were instead designed like the challenge stages of, say, Rayman Origins and Legends, where the challenge is to be as fluid as possible to survive, that'd be p sick, imo

[Milo]

7 hours ago, Slingerland said:

Remember when I said you can't say "all fans" because there are always pockets of people who like objectively terrible products? Welp... rip again, y'all.

Now that I mention "all fans," I'm seeing a number of people replying in favor of Adventure with "most fans/a lot of fans/etc want this and this..." and that's the inherent problem is everyone speaking on behalf of each other. Again, I've done a lot of events this past year and I've talked to so many people in person where they are more honest and less aggressive than they are on forums. There hasn't been a single, unifying opinion. Quite the opposite and that's where the problem lies at the moment. It's difficult from a developer perspective to give people what they want when things are aaaaalllll over the place (and rarely ever presented in a perspective of a developer or, like, politely either). 

Speaking of talking to people, I've had a run in or two with popular Twitch speedrunners (I forget their usernames) but they've told me that Sonic Mania looks like their dream game. Would any of you like to see a competitive speedrunning community around Mania and, if so, what steps would you think Mania would need to take to make it ideal? Gameplay modes, integration, etc? 

Stuff like leaderboards, time attack modes, and ghost modes are great, and I hope they can be integrated in Mania (if not that, the next classic game that may follow after it). But I feel that only tells one side of the story of the competitive scene. What I'm really hoping for are some solid competitive multiplayer modes (local, and if possible, online with friends too).

A big reason why Sonic 2 is a favorite is due to its multiplayer campaign, but one thing I think people overlook about is how it doesn't just factor in the player getting to the goal first--thanks to the inclusion of other factors such as the player's score, total rings collected, and item boxes destroyed, a player can win without being the fastest. And in order to try and tick in as much as these factors over the other in order to win, players will be compelled to creating their own twisted routes throughout the zones, rather than follow the standard paths. This makes things really novelas you're implementing strategy into your competitive outside of speedrunning. To an extent, competing players will not just be comparing their performances on just their time stamps, but also their ability as a collector as well as their game score as well. It would be great to have a new title that allowed players to toggle these components, especially as the following few Sonic platformers that do factor in multiplayer tend to focus purely on getting to the goal.

[Shiromokuba]

17 hours ago, Falcon said:

Generations doesn't have Adventure gameplay, it has the Boost gameplay.

Almost certainly the same for '17, going off the trailer.

Are the two really that different? 

[JezMM]

4 hours ago, Shiromokuba said:

Are the two really that different? 

I'm sure several strong Sonic fans here could write you a paragraph or twenty on how they're different, myself included, but I think the straightforward answer here for you would be that you just asked a silly question because clearly Falcon thinks yes they are different or else they wouldn't be arguing for what they're arguing.  Even if you think they play the similar it's clear that a large subset of fans don't feel they do.

Your choice is to either accept that and/or argue for a compromise gameplay style, or argue in the name of convincing a wide portion of players who prefer Adventure gameplay to Generations gameplay that they are somehow mistaken about the personal experience they had with the gameplay of each.

Of course, your post wasn't actually really asking them, it was either intentionally provoking them to wind them up a bit or was another way to say "I think they're too similar to argue for a return to that style", in which case it would've been better to just say that and then make your case as to why.

[Jango]

If they do add speedrun modes, like the 30 seconds time trial, they will have to disable everyone's special move (Knuckles' glide, Tails' flight and Sonic's drop dash) to keep it balanced.

What I really want thought, is a 2-players race mode, like Sonic 2, but improoved.

Also, boss rush. Please. Bring on the unused Egg Gauntlet!

[Indigo Rush]

Or create three leagues: for Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. Triple the ways to approach it.

6 hours ago, Shiromokuba said:

Are the two really that different? 

bruh

[TB100]

It's going to be Angel Island. no seriously it's going to be Angel Island, no offense, but not only is Angel Island a thousand times more well known then Marble Garden, It's just so obivous. how else would Knuckles presence be explained without it. (Of course a lot of the modern games didn't have Angel Island, but that's it's own can of worms that i really don't want to open.) seriously in almost every time he's a playable character in the mainline Sonic games, (Not counting stuff like Knuckles in Sonic 2.) Angel Island has always had some role in the games. (Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Advance 2, and Sonic & the Black Knight are the only real exceptions to this i think.) so Angel Island being a level just sounds so obivous. don't get me wrong, I love Marble Garden, but let's be real here, It's going to be Angel Island, no exceptions.

Also on the topic of a Speedrun mode, That's a neat idea, and i would be all in for that. (Generations and Lost World already have something similer already so it makes sense to have this.) if Sonic Mania does do mutliplayer though, then i think they should have a combination between Sonic 2's and 3's Multiplayer modes, basically have full out original stages created solely for multiplayer. but being full out stages instead of having short as hell stages with laps,. (That's just my opinion though.)

[JezMM]

10 minutes ago, BlueBlur91 said:

It's going to be Angel Island. no seriously it's going to be Angel Island, no offense, but not only is Angel Island a thousand times more well known then Marble Garden, It's just so obivous. how else would Knuckles presence be explained without it. (Of course a lot of the modern games didn't have Angel Island, but that's it's own can of worms that i really don't want to open.) seriously in almost every time he's a playable character in the mainline Sonic games, (Not counting stuff like Knuckles in Sonic 2.) Angel Island has always had some role in the games. (Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Advance 2, and Sonic & the Black Knight are the only real exceptions to this i think.) so Angel Island being a level just sounds so obivous. don't get me wrong, I love Marble Garden, but let's be real here, It's going to be Angel Island, no exceptions.

But, every zone in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, including Marble Garden, is set on Angel Island.  Only the first zone is NAMED Angel Island because that's your arrival there, but it's all Angel Island.  In the same way, I dunno, most of the "Act 2" zones in Heroes (Ocean Palace, Power Plant, Final Fortress etc) are still part of the location named in the "Act 1" zones (Seaside Hill, Grand Metropolis, Egg Fleet etc) but you're just in a specific part of them now.  Or how there's the zone called "The Ark" in Shadow the Hedgehog but there's a bunch of other zones in both SA2 and Shadow with specific names that still take place on The Ark.

The only difficulty is making it clear to less caring players that you're back on Angel Island since there'll be no text in the game, but all you need is a map screen or a cut-scene beforehand of them returning to Angel Island from afar and then landing in Marble Garden, etc.

[Ajavalo]

I looked back at this video yesterday:

I'm now thinking they'll put in Angel Island Zone to give that Tee Lopes remix an use.

[Jango]

It's going to be Angel Island. no seriously it's going to be Angel Island, no offense, but not only is Angel Island a thousand times more well known then Marble Garden, It's just so obivous. how else would Knuckles presence be explained without it. (Of course a lot of the modern games didn't have Angel Island, but that's it's own can of worms that i really don't want to open.) seriously in almost every time he's a playable character in the mainline Sonic games, (Not counting stuff like Knuckles in Sonic 2.) Angel Island has always had some role in the games. (Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Advance 2, and Sonic & the Black Knight are the only real exceptions to this i think.) so Angel Island being a level just sounds so obivous. don't get me wrong, I love Marble Garden, but let's be real here, It's going to be Angel Island, no exceptions.

Also on the topic of a Speedrun mode, That's a neat idea, and i would be all in for that. (Generations and Lost World already have something similer already so it makes sense to have this.) if Sonic Mania does do mutliplayer though, then i think they should have a combination between Sonic 2's and 3's Multiplayer modes, basically have full out original stages created solely for multiplayer. but being full out stages instead of having short as hell stages with laps,. (That's just my opinion though.)

AFAK, Angel Island is the name of the island, not just the first level of Sonic 3. We saw Knuckles casually chilling in Mushroom Hill in the beggining of Sonic & Knuckles. The guy knows every passage, shortcut and teleport "thingys" in the island, he can reach the Master Emerald in no time if needed.

Sonic Adventure 1 dropped this idea and designated the poor bastard to sit on that God for saken stone altar...

"-Forever".

ECHIDNA, Knuckles.

So in my game, Knuckles can start off ANYWHERE.

[TB100]

I missed Hidden Palace honestly, seriously why is the master emerald outside in the f**king open if it's meant to be protected and guarded?

Seriously It's just screaming *KIDNAP ME!!* no offense Knuckles, I love you and all, but damn you can be pretty damn stupid sometimes.

 

[Indigo Rush]

1 hour ago, Ajavalo said:

I looked back at this video yesterday:

I'm now thinking they'll put in Angel Island Zone to give that Tee Lopes remix an use.

I sincerely doubt that they would cut corners like that. 

[azoo]

2 hours ago, BlueBlur91 said:

Please refrain from single-word or image-only posts. Just throwing that out there for you.

On topic, I personally have no strong preference for any stages from S3&K as they're all good, but if you made me vote I'd pick Hydrocity and Lava Reef. Now, if we're talking Sonic CD though... I think we all know what stage should be in.