Detective SSMB & The Case of the Sonic 25th Anniversary "P.g. 100 is the best... food discussion started."

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

So Sonic sticking to what works, and what has worked since the 90s, is somehow lacking in variety?

If he's sticking to what works, where are the sales...? Why is there more negative feedback from consumers and critics now than at any point in history...?

And for you Diogenes, a question for your question...

Where's this idea come from that Sonic has to stick to one kind of tone/atmosphere and anytime variety is mentioned you tend to pop up just to say it's automatically bad in some way?

It's a matter of you wanting the franchise to stick to your personal quota's/preferences rather than a reasonable faith that Sonic should be more than just what he offers presently, which isn't doing the franchise any good by existing with no variety.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

And for you Diogenes, a question for your question...

Where's this idea come from that Sonic has to stick to one kind of tone/atmosphere and anytime variety is mentioned you tend to pop up just to say it's automatically bad in some way?

Because they tried that and it sucked. Have you somehow missed all the discussions about the series' lack of identity or do you just dismiss them outright?

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It's a matter of you wanting the franchise to stick to your personal quota's/preferences

Oh yeah, and I totally believe you're proposing "variety" for reasons beyond that what they're doing now isn't what you want.

[SSF1991]

24 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

If he's sticking to what works, where are the sales...? Why is there more negative feedback from consumers and critics now than at any point in history...?

Because it has been executed poorly. Glitches and especially poor level design have nothing to do with the comedy.

Not to mention that anytime Sonic does try to stray away from sticking to what works (Shadow/06), it fails.

 

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Because it has been executed poorly. Glitches and especially poor level design have nothing to do with the comedy.

Nonetheless the comedy is a major gripe for many consumers. I am NOT saying it needn't exist, I'm saying it needs cut back, restrained, balanced. Think Unleashed basically. That was good. And/or Black Knight, now THAT was a hell of a script.

And Diogenes, tell me this... From Sonic 1 through Sonic Unleashed, how were the sales of the franchise and its general reputation with most...?

There were shortcomings along the path, mistakes made, but by and large the franchise was never as mediocre and irrelevant as it is now.

[SSF1991]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Nonetheless the comedy is a major gripe for many consumers.

So, just you then.

Ir's worth noting that Colors and Generations, both with the comedy you dislike, sold 1-2 million copies each.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Nonetheless the comedy is a major gripe for many consumers.

Somehow I doubt you have much to back this up other than social media groups.

[Clewis]

30 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

No. No it's not.

It was very experimental. That's what ultimately drew the quality down. Not the "Mario ripoff" (which I still feel is not actually a thing) argument that people have to bring up every single time Lost World is even mentioned the slightest bit, like games have never been inspired by other franchises before (Yuji Naka has said Sonic was very inspired by Mario)

Just for the record, I do agree with you that Lost World's overall sense of experimentation ended up bringing down the quality of the game quite a bit, however there's a specific reason why I consider Lost World a poor man's version of Mario Galaxy/Donkey Kong Country instead of seeing it as a straight up ripoff of either title. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking inspiration from other series when developing a game, but if you're going to do so, then make sure you do it well.

I played through Lost World a couple months ago and there are several gameplay elements featured throughout that are obviously lifted from other platformers, but rather than Sonic Team implementing them so that they compliment the base gameplay in interesting ways, they instead feel like shallow imitations that just made me think "you know, I remember this being done in this game, except executed a lot better".

So my main issue isn't that Sonic Team was inspired by other platformers or that I think they produced a "Mario ripoff", but that I feel there's no point in playing Lost World when I could spend the same amount of time playing a higher-quality game that the developers were obviously taking inspiration from. That's why I consider it a poor man's Mario Galaxy/Donkey Kong Country.

[shdowhunt60]

I'm fairly certain, even as someone who does have rather strong objections to the series narrative direction, that if someone had complaints about Sonic Boom it wasn't about the comedy. It was about the games being complete and utter dog shit.

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

So, just you then.

Ir's worth noting that Colors and Generations, both with the comedy you dislike, sold 1-2 million copies each.

 

Do keep in mind, I didn't say everyone, I didn't say majority, I didn't say most, I said it's a gripe for many.

Your statement is far more arrogant/closed minded.

 

[SSF1991]

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Do keep in mind, I didn't say everyone, I didn't say majority, I didn't say most, I said it's a gripe for many.

You're still speaking as if the minority is a majority. Which it isn't.

There are even game sales that indicate that the direction SEGA took with the comedy didn't turn off that many people from the games.

7 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Your statement is far more arrogant/closed minded.

You just spoke on behalf of the entire fanbase and want Sonic to completely change its identity, all because the comedy isn't your thing. So how am I the one being arrogant and close-minded?

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

And Diogenes, tell me this... From Sonic 1 through Sonic Unleashed, how were the sales of the franchise and its general reputation with most...?

There were shortcomings along the path, mistakes made, but by and large the franchise was never as mediocre and irrelevant as it is now.

Are we going to pretend that ShtH and '06 never existed? Sonic was a joke long before the series' current direction. One of the reasons that the series is in such a shitty state is that it never properly recovered from that era.

[Chris Knopps]

8 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

It's still a very flawed argument, seeing as how there are even game sales that indicate that very few that actually care about the comedy that much.

You just spoke on behalf of the entire fanbase and want Sonic to completely change its identity, all because the comedy isn't your thing. So how am I the one being close-minded?

...My you love exaggerating. I said it was a major gripe for many, I repeat, many. I didn't not say everyone, I did not say majority, I did not say most, I said many.

Must you poke someone with a fork...?

As far as Generations selling well, it was a fanboy/girls orgasm fest with Classic Sonic officially tossed in, of course it's gonna sell well. You needed the lube to go with that sh@t cause lets face it, that was a dream, and how often does that happen?

Regarding Colors selling well, it just got lucky, extraordinarily lucky, that's all there is to it. Something about it had a sense of magic, I don't know what exactly, but something in that game just sold.

I think it was because of being all boost with no werehog at the time.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

That something that sold was that it was really good and didn't need a serious story to use as a crutch

[FriendBot]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Regarding Colors selling well, it just got lucky, extraordinarily lucky, that's all there is to it. Something about it had a sense of magic, I don't know what exactly, but something in that game just sold.

I can explain what that "magic" is, it's a saying called "the game's actually fucking good". While I do love Unleashed, the general public just don't like the Werehog so when Colors came around, where the gameplay was just 2D platforming and the Boost, then the masses praised the game for actually getting it right for once.

It's no unseen magic bullcrap, the game delivered on what people wanted, nothing more, nothing less.

[SSF1991]

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...My you love exaggerating.

That's rather ironic, coming from you.

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Must you poke someone with a fork...?

Yes, because merely debating with you is "poking someone with a fork".

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

As far as Generations selling well, it was a fanboy/girls orgasm fest with Classic Sonic officially tossed in, of course it's gonna sell well. You needed the lube to go with that sh@t cause lets face it, that was a dream, and how often does that happen?

Regarding Colors selling well, it just got lucky, extraordinarily lucky, that's all there is to it. SOmething about it had a sense of magic, I don't know what exactly, but something in that game just sold.

It's "lucky" that over two million people bought Colors? It was a fanboy/girl fest with Generations?

And yet, you call me close-minded.

[Chris Knopps]

7 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

That's rather ironic, coming from you.

Yes, because debating with you is "poking someone with a fork".

It's "lucky" that over two million people bought Colors? It was a fanboy/girl fest with Generations?

And yet, you call me close-minded.

Is that an indirect way of telling me not to post?

And keep in mind I said Colors had a touch of magic in it, as I enjoyed the game as well. And that's what Generations was, that's how it felt to me, and d@mn if I didn't feel on the verge the whole time I played it. It was great, until the whole possible DLC thing got canned, then I kept playing it and finally the verge wore off. Still good though, just short.

Is mentioning variety really a cause for forming an angry mob here? Is the same thing forever, the same tone, the same atmosphere, the same demographic, really what you folks want forever? Do you really want gameplay to be the ONLY thing the Sonic franchise in its entirety has to offer anyone?

[shdowhunt60]

Honestly, if we're going to go there: Generations, Colors, Unleashed, and even 06 has sold around 1-2.5 million copies. So has Heroes, Adventure 2, and the original Adventure. If anything it kind of proves that while we fans may bicker about the narrative aspect of the series, that the gaming community as a whole doesn't really care.

[SSF1991]

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Is that an indirect way of telling me not to post?

No, it's an indirect way of saying "calm down". I've been treating you rather fairly in this debate so far, yet you seem to be getting rather irritated for no reason.

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

And keep in mind I said Colors had a touch of magic in it, as I enjoyed the game as well. And that's what Generations was, that's how it felt to me, and d@mn if I didn't feel on the verge the whole time I played it. It was great, until the whole possible DLC thing got canned, then I kept playing it and finally the verge wore off. Still good though, just short.

So even though Colors and Generations were good games to you, even now, you still consider it "lucky" that the games sold that much. Even though the "magic" was for that very reason.

Just...what?

[FriendBot]

6 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Honestly, if we're going to go there: Generations, Colors, Unleashed, and even 06 has sold around 1-2.5 million copies. So has Heroes, Adventure 2, and the original Adventure. If anything it kind of proves that while we fans may bicker about the narrative aspect of the series, that the gaming community as a whole doesn't really care.

I'm sure 06 didn't sell a million copes, I think Gabe looked at SEGA's financial reports said that 06 sell about 900K copies but Shadow sold about 2.07 million copes.

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

No, it's an indirect way of saying "calm down". I've been treating you rather fairly in this debate so far, yet you seem to be getting rather irritated for no reason.

So even though Colors and Generations were good games to you, even now, you still consider it "lucky" that the games sold that much. Even though the "magic" was for that very reason.

Just...what?

I'm not irritated. Nor am I upset in any way. You just put in your two cents in an arrogant "no that's just you" way so you could begin a conversation with me and for whatever reason you yourself seem frustrated/irritated with me. That calm down would be of more use to you my friend.

They were good games, all things considered I just feel Colors was lucky and Generations sold due to all the pandering, that was the very purpose of the game.

[shdowhunt60]

1 minute ago, True Detective Soni said:

I'm sure 06 didn't sell a million copes, I think Gabe looked at SEGA's financial reports said that 06 sell about 900K copies but Shadow sold about 2.07 million copes.

Eh, point still stands then. A Sonic game's story can be dog turds and still sell well. That's not to say that it's not worth complaining about, if a game's narrative is shit I'm going to call it out on it, but at the same time we can't really say it's directly attributable to the game's overall success now is it?

[SSF1991]

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I'm not irritated. Nor am I upset in any way. You just put in your two cents in an arrogant "no that's just you" way so you could begin a conversation with me and for whatever reason you yourself seem frustrated/irritated with me. That calm down would be of more use to you my friend.

...We've been in a conversation the entire time. And that's not being arrogant, that's being blunt.

I'm not frustrated or irritated at all. In fact I've been having Easter dinner during the time we've been debating. So I'm very calm.

11 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

They were good games, all things considered I just feel Colors was lucky and Generations sold due to all the pandering, that was the very purpose of the game.

But again, it indicates that SEGA did deliver what people wanted and the game quality was good. Yet, now this brings up another point..."pandering".

So when SEGA listens to people, it's pandering. But when they don't, "SEGA isn't listening" and won't "give us what we want". And, again, all this is because you don't like the comedy. At this point, it just feels like you're contradicting yourself.

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Eh, point still stands then. A Sonic game's story can be dog turds and still sell well. That's not to say that it's not worth complaining about, if a game's narrative is shit I'm going to call it out on it, but at the same time we can't really say it's directly attributable to the game's overall success now is it?

To be fair, 2004-2006 was a different time. This was back when SEGA was consistently delivering good to at least decent Sonic games and it was before the franchise became a laughingstock due to Sonic 06. So Sonic had a lot more credibility then, and thus when a new Sonic game came out, people were a lot more enthusiastic about buying it.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

They were good games, all things considered I just feel Colors was lucky and Generations sold due to all the pandering, that was the very purpose of the game.

It's possible something sold well because reason =/= Something sold well because reason.

[Chris Knopps]

8 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

So when SEGA listens to people, it's pandering. But when they don't, "SEGA isn't listening" and won't "give us what we want". And, again, all this is because you don't like the comedy. At this point, it just feels like you're contradicting yourself.

Boy... Love digging into one's brain huh?

Sonic Generations WAS pandering because nothing was new in it really. You had the most popular characters and the most popular stages brought back. The only new thing being the Time Eater boss which... Funny enough being the only new part really it sucked. XD

Regarding depth I'm not only speaking about plot. I miss other playable characters, I miss the realism in the franchise. Hence the whole no variety argument as well. BOOM brought it back, which I'm thankful for, I just wish the script didn't turn me away from it so much... I still managed to push through and enjoy Shattered Crystal despite the terrible plot though, but I'd rather playing a game not be such a chore next time.

Same thing with Lost World really...

Maybe an optional "no cut scene" feature in the next game? I dunno... But that's randomly steering off into so many topics. Sorry about that.

Also keep in mind I didn't bring up the "isn't listening" and "won't give what we want" arguments, you just brought that up yourself there. Last thing I said was for SEGA to leave complete control of Sonic in Sonic Team and Iizuka's hands as it should be.

[SSF1991]

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Boy... Love digging into one's brain huh?

How is criticizing you of a flaw in your argument digging into your brain?

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Sonic Generations WAS pandering because nothing was new in it really. You had the most popular characters and the most popular stages brought back. The only new thing being the Time Eater boss which... Funny enough being the only new part really it sucked. XD

Because it was an anniversary title, looking back at the legacy of Sonic. It was for a good reason. And it only happened once.

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Regarding depth I'm not only speaking about plot

That was the entire point behind this debate, and it's how it got started in the first place, so you kind of were.

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. I miss other playable characters, I miss the realism in the franchise.

Planet Wisp in Colors was kind of realistic, to be fair.

And even then, the Boom games have both of those.

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Maybe an optional "no cut scene" feature in the next game?

To be fair, you can skip Lost World's cutscenes. Actually, I believe you can skip Rise of Lyric's and Shattered Crystal's cutscenes too. It takes some start button pushing, but you can skip them.