Sega apologises to fans (hints at a old styled Sonic game?)

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

*post*

I'm freaking out because of how amazing this sounds. You should make a machine that broadcasts your brainwaves toward Sega headquarters.

[Blacklightning]

Here's hoping the new game has 2d hand drawn, cartoony graphics. It's gonna be like the ultimate apology for each and every one of those horrible games from the early 2000's

Sega has proven time and time again that they can't win people over with artstyle shifts even when they are modelled after the earlier sects of the franchise, so I'm really not sure who you think you're speaking for or how this will turn out to be an exception. It's also worth noting that hand-drawn animation is both time consuming and expensive as fuck, too, which can be a very costly mistake when the game turns out more or less like Wario: Shake It and the gaming community issues little more than a collective shrug.

And really, of all the things that are completely broken with Sonic right now, aesthetics is one of the few things that are perfectly fine the way they are - I'd rather Sega sorted out the way the games play first.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Blacklightning

[NoirSuede]

I always say in my cobwebbed journal entries that Sonic needs to follow Mario, the gameplay was inspired by it to begin with.

And what do you say, Mario has many lines parallel to each other, it can be the 3d (mario 64 inspired) games, it can be the 2d (super mario bros) ones, the Mario Kart ones, the RPG ones and the list goes on.,

Why not do the same with Sonic?

I mean, Nintendo isn't what it is out of nowhere... Even if THEY'RE the ones making poor decisions on the industry, SEGA still has a lot to learn with Nintendo. 

You don't see nintendo fans complaining about the new games. There's a specific series for each sort of fan. 

And the question is: Why is it that SEGA just doesn't do the same as nintendo? Really makes me wonder

Because unlike Nintendo EAD Sonic Team doesn't have enough manpower to field both a 2D series and a 3D series ? (also Runners can kinda be considered as this year's 2D game)

[Jango]

Because unlike Nintendo EAD Sonic Team doesn't have enough manpower to field both a 2D series and a 3D series ? (also Runners can kinda be considered as this year's 2D game)

They don't?

[Regen]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

They don't?   

No, because SEGA is in a terrible economic situation right now. Although you are right that it isn't ridiculous an idea usually.

There's some discussion that fans are poor at expressing what they want. For what I would want, it's quite simple. I want the next 2D Classic Sonic game. What is a 2D Classic Sonic game?

My 2D Classic Sonic game is based off the best elements of Sonic 2 and Sonic 3AK. And not a cheap low-budget arcade title (Sonic 4) but something like Rayman Origins, New Mario or Donkey Kong, a full console release. 

I want originality at the foremost. I want Sonic Team to create ideas and new concepts that I couldn't even think of. Like Mario 3D World, I want to blown away by their ingenuity. I want the 'next spindash' for 2D Sonic, something that is planned to fit into the formula rather than just throw the homing attack in because it's popular from the 3D titles like they did with Sonic 4. The worst thing that could happen would be to try to put 3D elements from previous Sonic titles into 2D with little thought when the two game styles are so radically different. To me, Classic Sonic is all about originality and refining what came before. Build upon the last title, which the Classics literally did.

Of course, I want the tried and tested Classic Sonic formula to return. I want the multiple playable characters to return with the addition of one other character. Of course, complete with their own routes occasionally, ala Sonic 3AK. I think Shadow would be a good candidate. I don't particularly like him, but he was cool in SA2 and I think having a darker hero could fit in really well with the aesthetic and tone. Or maybe Amy, she's a bit more relevant right now thanks to Boom, and that would be a way to include a female character which is standard practice now in games. Or maybe go really crazy and include both.

A Classic Sonic game needs the Classic Physics. You wouldn't release the next Halo with rubbish bullet magnetism and poor hit detection. You wouldn't release the next Street Fighter with input lag. Don't release the next Classic Sonic game with bad physics. I want them to build upon the momentum play that already existed in Classic Sonic games and really go wild with what the new technology can allow. A blistering 60 FPS of Sonic pinballing around crazy, beautiful vistas. 

The levels should be complex and intricate rather than the linear rollercoasters we've seen in the 2D of the games like Unleashed and Lost World. Sonic Generations did well with the Classic Sonic stages. Sonic Team still has their 2D level design complexity ability, let's bring that into this next Classic Sonic game.

For the presentation I want animated cut-scenes with a compelling but minimalist plot in the same style as Sonic CD between levels. Ideally, the tone should be dark but not ridiculous, I think Wall-E's intro is a good example. A cutscene before a Zone and a cutscene after a Zone. Perhaps a special cutscene for important scenarios like first meeting Eggman and particularly important points. Despite what some think now, plot is important to any game and especially Sonic if it's not overblown. For the artsyle I would employ hand-drawn sprites ala Rayman Origins but in the style of the Sonic CD promotional material. 

I don't think I expressed that too badly. 

That is what a Classic Sonic game is to me.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Regen

[Dizcrybe]

If that's what your holding out for, don't hold your breath. Even if the next game does strive to be like the classics, it will more than likely not be as precise and in tune with the Genesis games as what you're asking for.

I mean, it'd be cool, but it's a pipe dream at best.

[Indigo Rush]

I would argue that they do have the manpower for both a 2D and 3D series. It's not likely to come to pass, however we are aware that Sonic Team regularly divides their people to make a steady release of games, at one point annually. Remember, we used to talk about the "Storybook Team" and "Unleashed Team" and how they would work on two games separately, and when one game was released, they would bring in the rest of the team to finish up and polish the other game. This was the case for Colors and then Generations, if I recall correctly, and is likely the case now for Sonic Lost World and then Sonic 2016.

With that in mind, having one group work on a Sonic game that's 2D and another that's 3D isn't really hard to imagine. The real issue is that, as far as we can tell, for 2D, Sonic Team hasn't put together anything better than Generations Classic. It has the right idea, but it lacks the nuance in level design and there's no proper physics to take advantage of said nuance. It's a Classic Sonic engine in a superficial way. Now, ideally, they can further improve upon that in a hypothetical next iteration of 2D Sonic (regardless if they use the Classic models or not), but I don't see any reason why I should hold out that they will. The closest we've seen a modern era Sonic game touch the mechanics of the original games was Sonic 4 Episode 2, and even that is riddled with design flaws and still couldn't get the rolling physics down. And we know for a fact that it's not impossible to have a newer engine utilize Classic Sonic physics. Not impossible, just not likely.

But whether it's successful or not is kind of besides the point; Sonic Team has made more than one kind of game before, and they've been actively doing it for the past decade. I don't see why they can't continue to do it. 

[azoo]

I'd be more comfortable with the idea of a 2D classic Sonic revival if it ran in conjunction with the main Sonic series like the Advance games did (or like how the NSMB series is now for Mario). I just don't see regressing back to 2D gameplay or the classic style as an option for the main game series anymore; because (funny that we talk of 'innovation' on that subject) all that'd be doing is going backwards and admitting Sonic just can't work any other way.

And while Rayman Origins and DKC:Tropical Freeze are great games that I'd gladfully pay for given their quality and content, I would've taken 3D Rayman or Donkey Kong games over them any day. Just being honest.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Azoo

[D.H]

Personally, I'm past the point of caring about "what era of Sonic SEGA's trying to appeal to." At this point, I just want a good Sonic game.

[Regen]

I agree guys that usually it would be perfectly possible for a 2D and 3D series to run in parallel. I'd like to see that too, I do like 3D Sonic, especially Modern from Generations, despite being more in favour of Classic Sonic.

It's just I don't think SEGA have the funds right now to do so. They are in an absolutely dire situation and I really doubt they can run two projects at once. It's probably a struggle just to keep one Sonic project going. 

And while Rayman Origins and DKC:Tropical Freeze are great games that I'd gladfully pay for given their quality and content, I would've taken 3D Rayman or Donkey Kong games over them any day. Just being honest.

That's fair enough, but I think 2D really has a market in the gaming landscape. I generally prefer 2D games over 3D games.

If that's what your holding out for, don't hold your breath. Even if the next game does strive to be like the classics, it will more than likely not be as precise and in tune with the Genesis games as what you're asking for.

I mean, it'd be cool, but it's a pipe dream at best.

Yeah, I don't think it's going to happen either. But one can dream.

I'd be more comfortable with the idea of a 2D classic Sonic revival if it ran in conjunction with the main Sonic series like the Advance games did (or like how the NSMB series is now for Mario). I just don't see regressing back to 2D gameplay or the classic style as an option for the main game series anymore; because (funny that we talk of 'innovation' on that subject) all that'd be doing is going backwards and admitting Sonic just can't work any other way

Not necessarily, Rayman's the best it's ever been now, it didn't regress: it went into a whole new level.

[Wraith]

I'd be more comfortable with the idea of a 2D classic Sonic revival if it ran in conjunction with the main Sonic series like the Advance games did (or like how the NSMB series is now for Mario). I just don't see regressing back to 2D gameplay or the classic style as an option for the main game series anymore; because (funny that we talk of 'innovation' on that subject) all that'd be doing is going backwards and admitting Sonic just can't work any other way.

And while Rayman Origins and DKC:Tropical Freeze are great games that I'd gladfully pay for given their quality and content, I would've taken 3D Rayman or Donkey Kong games over them any day. Just being honest.

I never liked the whole idea that Classic Sonic is necessarily a regression when most of the 3D games don't really feel like they expanded upon it in a meaningful way. They're just different. Not better in any sense. It's not like most other long running franchises where the games built themselves up with every installment. The series can't go backwards if it never really went forward in the first place. 

Maybe it's just because I feel like 2D/more linear and straight forward 3D  Platformers usually end up better than fully 3D ones anyway, since they're more tightly designed by default, but I don't really see it as a regression. 

 

[azoo]

Not necessarily, Rayman's the best it's ever been now, it didn't regress: it went into a whole new level.

And I disagree entirely. Origins and Legends are great games but I found Rayman 2 & 3 are much more memorable and fun experiences, despite their age. Plus, the original series vs Origins/Legends play nothing alike, so they're almost incomparable anyways.

 

I never liked the whole idea that Classic Sonic is necessarily a regression when most of the 3D games don't really feel like they expanded upon it in a meaningful way. They're just different. Not better in any sense. It's not like most other long running franchises where the games built themselves up with every installment. The series can't go backwards if it never really went forward in the first place. 

Maybe it's just because I feel like 2D/more linear and straight forward 3D  Platformers usually end up better than fully 3D ones anyway, since they're more tightly designed by default, but I don't really see it as a regression. 

 

Well I know the series never really expanded with the classic games' concepts in the 3D games beyond the Adventures somewhat, but I still feel like the potential for the gameplay expands an extreme amount when put into 3D space. There's much more purpose for things like parkour and having playground esque environments when you move into all directions instead of making it set to left or right.

I love 2D platformers loads and all, but if you put two platformers (one 2D and one 3D) side by side with the same level of quality I'd pick the 3D one. I want the environments I explore and the game I play to feel a bit more grounded in the case that you have space to breathe and move around as you want, instead of being limited to two directions (four counting vertical movement). Granted, you'll spend a lot of a game like Sonic moving forward, but being given room to freely move around as I please and take things from any direction is ideal to me in a game nowadays.

I get the want for tighter game design through 2D or more linear 3D games, sure. I'm not even asking for labyrinthine layouts or anything near Mario Sunshine kind of stage maps in Sonic. I just think there's a load of potential in 3D that Sonic hasn't touched yet, and that pushing the series back to full 2D again just cuts that all off.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Azoo

[Regen]

And I disagree entirely. Origins and Legends are great games but I found Rayman 2 & 3 are much more memorable and fun experiences, despite their age. Plus, the original series vs Origins/Legends play nothing alike, so they're almost incomparable anyways.

Rayman 2 is excellent but Rayman 3 is very flawed, it's certainly nowhere near as good as Origins. 

My main point is that 2D isn't objectively weaker than 3D, which some people seem to think because I assume they were brought up on 3D. Your reason is a bit different and I can respect that. I disagree with Sonic going 2D as going backwards though, that's absurd. That's like saying Sonic going back to the Adventure style is going backwards.

[azoo]

My main point is that 2D isn't objectively weaker than 3D, which some people seem to think because I assume they were brought up on 3D. Your reason is a bit different and I can respect that. I disagree with Sonic going 2D as going backwards though, that's absurd. That's like saying Sonic going back to the Adventure style is going backwards.

Making a 2D game isn't going backwards to me. The Advance games have their special place with me, just as the Rushes (and I wouldn't have minded S4 at all if it wasn't horrible). 2D platformers are often very tight and well designed, and are more than welcome in a series like Sonic where they work really well.

And going back to Adventure or classic style or anything like that is all in game mechanics, which is a different kettle of fish. Classic mechanics could be done in 3D now and it'd be anything but a regression; more of a return to form if anything. Taking an entire axis of movement out of the game for the sake of sticking to what 'works' is a regression though (if this is the mainstream series we're talking about). That says nothing of the games' end quality because it can still end up brilliant, as said before, but still.

I just think that if they can help it, they should try to go with as little self-given limitations as possible. Classic Sonic, much like other games in the 8/16/32 bit eras, were 2D games only because they had to be. Granted, they made the best of it that they could, but staying 2D wasn't a stylistic decision as much as a leash that was loosened as time went on (I mean think about how much the classic games and etc from that era tried to push '3D' elements into those games). Granted you can still make really creative and great things in 2D but in a current game industry where the ambitious and big games get the most recognition, why would Sega limit itself like that? TF and Origins/Legends weren't quite the money makers either, despite extreme critical acclaim. But then again, this is Sonic and that does make a difference.. who knows though.

I just can't see a future for the main Sonic series to be strictly 2D again. Well, not only that, I don't want to see it either. Continue having 2D games? Sure. But letting them take place of new 3D ones, just.. no.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Azoo

[CrashRatchetFan]

Here's hoping the new game has 2d hand drawn, cartoony graphics. It's gonna be like the ultimate apology for each and every one of those horrible games from the early 2000's

Coming from an animator-in-training such as myself, this'll likely never happen given short deadlines. Animating traditionally is like watching grass grow, it takes a long time just to make a character do a simple run cycle and incredibly expensive as hell to make (you're better off with Sonic 2 remake which looks amazing BTW). 

Also, I'm out of the Sonic loop (forgive me) but isn't Takashi Iizuka indifferent towards the original Genesis games? I know he stressed that Classic Sonic would appear only in Generations but IF the upcoming Sonic game is classic-oriented, wouldn't he have the final say in it? Forgive me since I don't know the inner workings of the Sonic developers.

Edited November 1, 2015 by CrashRatchetFan

[Bolt]

I'm kind of (very) tired of Sonic-only games, so I can only hope for a game that includes more characters playable, (discounting Sonic Boom as the universe doesn't appeal much to me) even just optional or reskins, I'll take anything at his point.

If that doesn't happen, then I'll likely not be interested, especially if it's 'Classic' styled, or related to it in such a way, as I am not much of a fan of the neo-classic style, art, and everything. Same goes for only/mostly 2D platforming too, it has it's place, but I prefer more open, 3D worlds.

That being said, if a new game of any sort is released on PC, I'll be interested as that means modding is opened up, and that is always so fun.

[SuperAj3]

There was this article in Polygon (Not sure if it was shared already) about how Sonic's going to improve on quality:
http://www.polygon.com/2015/10/30/9640190/sonic-the-hedgehog-sega-coo-quality-sonic-boom

This is an interview SoA's chief operating officer Chris Olson and what he said I'm not sure how to interpret.

"Maybe that might lose some fans along the road, but we're picking up new fans that will hopefully grow with us as Sonic grows."

Does it mean they're willing to let go of older fans? I know he only mentions the "old-school" ones (because everyone forgets the Dreamcast) but does this mean that Sonic sells better to kids in his eyes?

[Dizcrybe]

It means piss all is what it means. They've been "losing fans" for years; only now they're just admitting it.

[Regen]

I just can't see a future for the main Sonic series to be strictly 2D again. Well, not only that, I don't want to see it either. Continue having 2D games? Sure. But letting them take place of new 3D ones, just.. no.

I'm not in favour of only having a 2D Sonic game series though. I wouldn't want to see the end of 3D either. In fact, I was a bit annoyed with how Modern Sonic in Generations had 2D in his levels, I would have preferred Modern Sonic to have been entirely 3D. 

All I'm asking for is at least one Sonic game to be a console 2D release and it's fucking baffling that it still hasn't happened when it's such an obvious thing to do. 

[azoo]

I'm not in favour of only having a 2D Sonic game series though. I wouldn't want to see the end of 3D either. In fact, I was a bit annoyed with how Modern Sonic in Generations had 2D in his levels, I would have preferred Modern Sonic to have been entirely 3D. 

All I'm asking for is at least one Sonic game to be a console 2D release and it's fucking baffling that it still hasn't happened when it's such an obvious thing to do. 

Sonic 4 8V

But nah I get what you're saying. My points about not wanting the series to go back to 2D completely were kinda just on a tangent of sorts. Not sure if I would personally want a 2D game to take place of the development of a 3D game, but I would like them to make more console-release 2D ones on the side regardless.

[Indigo Rush]

On the same thought as you, Azoo, but for just one game, I'd love to see a Sonic Team developed 2D Sonic game that pulls all the stops. Just one. 

sega pls

[azoo]

On the same thought as you, Azoo, but for just one game, I'd love to see a Sonic Team developed 2D Sonic game that pulls all the stops. Just one. 

sega pls

Only problem with that would be that the entire outside-the-fanbase gaming community would collectively rate it 10/10 and praise it forever (even if the title ended up being a 7.5 kinda game, kinda like Generations' reception), using it as the poster-boy example that Sonic only really works in 2D (as they always say), and if Sega got that sort of praise for it then they'd end up catering to that forevermore with no return.

I'd like to see Sonic Team get 3D right before stepping back to another 2D game, for that very reason.

[Indigo Rush]

Only problem with that would be that the entire outside-the-fanbase gaming community would collectively rate it 10/10 and praise it forever (even if the title ended up being a 7.5 kinda game, kinda like Generations' reception), using it as the poster-boy example that Sonic only really works in 2D (as they always say), and if Sega got that sort of praise for it then they'd end up catering to that forevermore with no return.

I'd like to see Sonic Team get 3D right before stepping back to another 2D game, for that very reason.

Well then have the whole team make a super awesome 3D Sonic first, and then a super awesome 2D Sonic, then split up the team again so they can work with their 2 engines and make them side by side.

 

...Or something.

I'm a fan, not a game designer

[Milo]

Personally I'd rather have someone else get the reigns to do classic 2D Sonic games, while Sonic Team can continue to figure out how to make a good 3D Sonic.

Outside of the classic Sonic half of Generations, the 2D segments/levels don't do anything for me, outside of feeling like filler to make up for a lack of 3D stages. And while I did enjoy Generations' classic Sonic stages, it has its own issues in terms of not being faithful with the Genesis gameplay. Iizuka's also on record for arguably not really understanding or caring at all for the classic games; if his role as producer in Sonic 4 and his (initial) insistence of Generations' use of the classic Sonic designs being a one-time thing are anything to go by.

As to who to take the job? Ideally, a team with an obvious pedigree in quality games and people who do want to make classic Sonic entries (so that obviously rules out the likes of Dimps and BRB). As to who in particular...I dunno really. If pipe dreams could become a reality I'd love to see Nintendo or any of their affiliates (Retro Studios, Good Feel, heck even Nintendo SPD, they got co-creator Hirokazu Yasuhara on their staff) take a crack at a new classic Sonic.

As for who would be most inclined to take up the offer back in the real world...heck if I know, unfortunately. Sega's other R&D divisions and their acquired studios usually work on their own franchises (Yakuza, Mario and Sonic, etc.) or mobile games, and none of them come off to me as people who'd want to take a crack at a new classic Sonic. The most likely affiliated studios I can think of who would be interested and/or could do a decent job are either busy (Sumo Digital) or are people I'm doubtful understand classic gameplay (Sanzaru).

Edited November 1, 2015 by Gabe

[Regen]

Only problem with that would be that the entire outside-the-fanbase gaming community would collectively rate it 10/10 and praise it forever (even if the title ended up being a 7.5 kinda game, kinda like Generations' reception), using it as the poster-boy example that Sonic only really works in 2D (as they always say), and if Sega got that sort of praise for it then they'd end up catering to that forevermore with no return.

I'd like to see Sonic Team get 3D right before stepping back to another 2D game, for that very reason.

Sonic Generations actually got consistently solid 8/10 reviews. The reason the metacritic is lower is because there are some absolutely clueless reviews that marked it at 6/10 for having levels that brought back bad memories. There were a few 7/10 reviews but on the whole it got solid 8/10 marks.

As for the 2D game being very well received, I don't think SEGA or Sonic Team would cater to it, seeing as they do their own thing no matter what. Sure, they've followed the critics to some point but they really do fire off on their own wishes and do very unpredictable things.They don't follow the wishes of critics to that extent, that's why we have never had a 2D Console game since two decades ago.