DC Extended Universe Thread | Wonder Woman | June 2nd, 2017

[pppp]

6 hours ago, KHCast said:

You know, I'm all for people having opinions. If you enjoyed the film, good for you, but this kind of shit right here, screams denial, plugging your ears, and not being willing to listen to people that have fair complaints. Acting like people that have problems with are being unfair and are "Marvel babies" really REALLY makes you out as the obvious fanboy here.

Pretty much. I hate it when people tell me that the only reason I bash the movie is cause I'm jumping on the hate bandwagon or some bullcrap like that. Yeah, I couldn't possibly genuinely find the movie an unfocused nonsensical mess that abandons any attempt at having a point at the halfway mark to become a commercial for the Justice League movie.

As for that "Marvel babies/ Fun+Childish formula" crap, here's an honest question, not just at the people who say those things, but to anyone that thinks the movie was good:

What was BvS about exactly? What was its theme? What exactly did this movie accomplish aside from noisy action without meaning and shallow fanservice for comic book geeks? Batman's night terrors make no sense, Superman is an hypocrite that condems Batman's methods despite he himself also operating outside the law, Wonder Woman and everything involving the Justice League has no point being there as it doesn't add to the story and it's presented without context, Lex Luthor is a dick that wants to kill Superman cause....well just because I guess.

Let me look at the so called childish Marvel movies:

Winter Soldier is about old values vs. new radical ideals.

Guardians of the Galaxy is about thieving space rogues having to work together to survive and becoming better people as a result.

First Avenger is about how having huge power is only good if you put that power to great use.

Iron Man is about an inheritor of something bad overcoming his father's faults and using that legacy to help the world.

The Avengers is about how all these heroes bond as a team and combine their great efforts to save the world they love.

If anything BvS to me is the actual childish movie. It tries so hard to be dark that it forgets to be entertaining, It goes all "The 3 heroes are fighting huge monster YAY PUNCH! KICK! EXPLODE! BATMAN VS SUPERMAN, EPIC!" instead of actually building proper context, story and character to have all this action actually mean something, add up to something, have a point, anything. Oh that's right, the point was to advertise the Justice League movie.

If you liked the movie good for you, I actually managed to enjoy it ironically, but let's not pretend the movie didn't stink of commercialism and bad writing.

[Killtank]

8 hours ago, KHCast said:

You know, I'm all for people having opinions. If you enjoyed the film, good for you, but this kind of shit right here, screams denial, plugging your ears, and not being willing to listen to people that have fair complaints. Acting like people that have problems with are being unfair and are "Marvel babies" really REALLY makes you out as the obvious fanboy here.

I did enjoy this movie, but I'll admit that there were issues with this film. Personally, in the end, I don't feel like these issues are ultimately fatal flaws. And yeah, some people will unfairly attack people who mainly enjoy films that employ the tone set forth by the MCU. In fact, I can dig either approach. Heck, CA:WS is my favorite comic book movie. But the idea that everyone who likes BvS is simply in denial of its overall quality is just plain silly. BvS isn't Citizen Kane by any stretch, but it's not worthy of its 30% score on RT. At least, I think this to be the case.

Like I said, it's exciting to think of what the Director's Cut may present for fans. It may even improve upon the theatrical cut. It's possible in any case.

[Tornado]

RottenTomatoes scores don't work how Metacritic ones do.

[pppp]

35 minutes ago, Killtank said:

I did enjoy this movie, but I'll admit that there were issues with this film. Personally, in the end, I don't feel like these issues are ultimately fatal flaws. And yeah, some people will unfairly attack people who mainly enjoy films that employ the tone set forth by the MCU. In fact, I can dig either approach. Heck, CA:WS is my favorite comic book movie. But the idea that everyone who likes BvS is simply in denial of its overall quality is just plain silly. BvS isn't Citizen Kane by any stretch, but it's not worthy of its 30% score on RT. At least, I think this to be the case.

Like I said, it's exciting to think of what the Director's Cut may present for fans. It may even improve upon the theatrical cut. It's possible in any case.

Read my previous post on this thread. Unless you think I'm making bad points(By all mean point out any problem in my arguments), then I think me agreeing with the RT score is fair. There are many movies out there that get panned for being nonsensical messy and full of cynical commercialism like this movie does. If that's not enough for the movie to deserve that score then what is? I'm legitimally curious here.

[Dejimon11]

So despite it's poor reception by critics and die hard fans it had the highest opening weekend for a comic book movie ever although to be fair it's batman and superman in a movie together for the first time so it's not surprising. I haven't seen the film yet but if Dawn of Justice is really as bad as many people say it is then this might be the transformers of comic book movies http://comicbook.com/2016/03/27/batman-v-superman-opens-with-424-million-globally-biggest-ever-f/

[JaidynReiman]

16 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

So despite it's poor reception by critics and die hard fans it had the highest opening weekend for a comic book movie ever although to be fair it's batman and superman in a movie together for the first time so it's not surprising. I haven't seen the film yet but if Dawn of Justice is really as bad as many people say it is then this might be the transformers of comic book movies http://comicbook.com/2016/03/27/batman-v-superman-opens-with-424-million-globally-biggest-ever-f/

I was under the impression it wasn't outright poor reception, just a mixed reception. Its happening in this very thread. At the very least people say its flawed, though, that much is true.

[KHCast]

3 hours ago, Killtank said:

I did enjoy this movie, but I'll admit that there were issues with this film. Personally, in the end, I don't feel like these issues are ultimately fatal flaws. And yeah, some people will unfairly attack people who mainly enjoy films that employ the tone set forth by the MCU. In fact, I can dig either approach. Heck, CA:WS is my favorite comic book movie. But the idea that everyone who likes BvS is simply in denial of its overall quality is just plain silly. BvS isn't Citizen Kane by any stretch, but it's not worthy of its 30% score on RT. At least, I think this to be the case.

Like I said, it's exciting to think of what the Director's Cut may present for fans. It may even improve upon the theatrical cut. It's possible in any case.

Except I didn't say that? I said if you're one of those people that say shit like in the picture, then you're likely butthurt that it isn't getting all the praise in the world and arent willing to listen and write off any complaint as "it's not marvel so you're obviously not gonna be happy" which isn't the case. (Having personality and charm isn't a marvel thing. Star Wars, Indiana jones, suicide squad from the look of it so far, etc are all movies with fun and unique characters that you feel something towards.)

 

And considering the overall gritty and dark tone and lack of good characterization were notable issues people had with the film, the directors cut which last time I checked was being promoted as "more action and violence" I don't expect to change many peoples minds. Maybe it can somewhat fix the incoherent mess of a plot a little, but that's probably it if you ask me.

[Brad]

The movie lacks a focus and doesn't feel dedicated enough to tackle the deeper themes it hints at. Lacks a bit of coherency and feels too overstuffed - this movie would have benefited greatly if the focus was primarily on the relationship and dynamic between Batman and Superman, and how that conflict reflects on society. Not to mention the titular conflict feels forced and over pretty quickly, and the last half hour feels like a literal sales pitch from an executive for the rest of the DC Extended Universe. All the acting and costume designs are fantastic but the movie feels overstuffed, leaving you wanting a lot more from certain characters.

That being said, it's a goddamn gorgeous movie. Scenes look ripped directly from a comic book in certain frames, and the atmosphere/tone is refreshing amongst all the Marvel movies. The score is pretty ballin' too. Aesthetically, it's a lovely film. It just doesn't have the storytelling chops to support it. 

It's not as bad as the RT score suggests. Somewhere in the 6/10 area. It has some fundamental flaws but you can find enjoyment in it, especially if you're a DC fan. If you want another Marvel film though, it's not for you. 

[pppp]

20 minutes ago, Brad said:

The movie lacks a focus and doesn't feel dedicated enough to tackle the deeper themes it hints at. Lacks a bit of coherency and feels too overstuffed - this movie would have benefited greatly if the focus was primarily on the relationship and dynamic between Batman and Superman, and how that conflict reflects on society. Not to mention the titular conflict feels forced and over pretty quickly, and the last half hour feels like a literal sales pitch from an executive for the rest of the DC Extended Universe. All the acting and costume designs are fantastic but the movie feels overstuffed, leaving you wanting a lot more from certain characters.

That being said, it's a goddamn gorgeous movie. Scenes look ripped directly from a comic book in certain frames, and the atmosphere/tone is refreshing amongst all the Marvel movies. The score is pretty ballin' too. Aesthetically, it's a lovely film. It just doesn't have the storytelling chops to support it. 

It's not as bad as the RT score suggests. Somewhere in the 6/10 area. It has some fundamental flaws but you can find enjoyment in it, especially if you're a DC fan. If you want yet another Marvel film though, it's not for you. 

"If you're a DC fan"....Why can't the movie be an actual well made movie that everyone can enjoy?

I didn't expect a Marvel film, hell I don't even expect that from Marvel Studios, I expect movies that have a point to make from comic book adaptations like I always do for any film.

Honestly all those problems that you listed in your first paragraph are enough to justify the RT score if you ask me. People should expect quality from something as special as a Batman vs Superman film, expecting any less is basically saying to studios that they shouldn't try.

The Marvel films may not look like "comic books put on screen" and they always have the same tone yeah, but for the most part they're good movies that everyone can enjoy.

Looking pretty and nothing else doesn't make it ok, it just makes it a pretty looking failure like James Cameron's Avatar. Neither does having a darker tone/atmosphere that's refreshing, otherwise the 2015 Fant4stic movie would also be ok instead of being an abomination.

Why couldn't the movie have the pretty visuals, dark tone AND a good story?

I honestly will never understand how some people can just so easily forgive shit storytelling just cause the movie looks pretty.

[Brad]

No need to make an argument out of it. I never meant it's an excuse. I meant if you're a DC fan you'll likely find a lot more enjoyment in it than a casual fan.

No need to take it so personally either, it's a pretty general consensus I have on the movie, and I'm not excusing pretty visuals for bland storytelling at all. My very abridged thoughts even display that. I also don't appreciate your passive aggressive tone.

[Wraith]

42 minutes ago, pppp said:

"If you're a DC fan"....Why can't the movie be an actual well made movie that everyone can enjoy?

I didn't expect a Marvel film, hell I don't even expect that from Marvel Studios, I expect movies that have a point to make from comic book adaptations like I always do for any film.

Honestly all those problems that you listed in your first paragraph are enough to justify the RT score if you ask me. People should expect quality from something as special as a Batman vs Superman film, expecting any less is basically saying to studios that they shouldn't try.

The Marvel films may not look like "comic books put on screen" and they always have the same tone yeah, but for the most part they're good movies that everyone can enjoy.

Looking pretty and nothing else doesn't make it ok, it just makes it a pretty looking failure like James Caeron's Avatar. Neither does having a darker tone/atmsphere that's refreshing, otherwise the 2015 Fant4stic movie would also be ok instead of being an abomination.

 

Why couldn't the movie have the pretty visuals, dark tone AND a good story?

 

I honestly will never uderstand how some people can just so easily forgive shit storytelling just cause the movie looks pretty.

Respecting the movie's cinematography isn't really excusing it's flaws. Sometimes, aesthetic is important to people in a film. Its no different from a game where some qualities are more important than  others to some people. You almost sound irritated because someone actually liked the thing.

[pppp]

So debating on a forum is being passive agressive? I even said that if you liked a movie good for you. "Respecting the movie's cinematography isn't really excusing it's flaws". Well yeah, but also saying that the movie is garbage is not saying there's 0 things good about it.

I'm just trying to say that the 30% RT score is deserved cause the movie failed at being a good movie in general.

[Brad]

No, you saying stuff like:

1 hour ago, pppp said:

"If you're a DC fan"....Why can't the movie be an actual well made movie that everyone can enjoy?

I didn't expect a Marvel film, hell I don't even expect that from Marvel Studios, I expect movies that have a point to make from comic book adaptations like I always do for any film.

Honestly all those problems that you listed in your first paragraph are enough to justify the RT score if you ask me. People should expect quality from something as special as a Batman vs Superman film, expecting any less is basically saying to studios that they shouldn't try.

The Marvel films may not look like "comic books put on screen" and they always have the same tone yeah, but for the most part they're good movies that everyone can enjoy.

Looking pretty and nothing else doesn't make it ok, it just makes it a pretty looking failure like James Cameron's Avatar. Neither does having a darker tone/atmosphere that's refreshing, otherwise the 2015 Fant4stic movie would also be ok instead of being an abomination.

Why couldn't the movie have the pretty visuals, dark tone AND a good story?

I honestly will never understand how some people can just so easily forgive shit storytelling just cause the movie looks pretty.

when I never implied either of those things were true is passive aggressive, not to mention belittling. You're putting words in my mouth, and you're acting angry that I found positives in this film you might not agree with. And you definitely don't say anywhere in that paragraph it's "fine" if I enjoyed the film. You even compare me enjoying the refreshing atmosphere of BvS to excusing Fant4stic as a ok film...?

Uncool dude. 

[TheOcelot]

I finally watched Batman vs Superman. I was stuck in traffic for two and half hours (in my car) prior to watching. So was it worth the wait? Well, I actually thought was quite good.

Now, I'm not familiar with the Batman vs Superman Dawn of Justice universe. So maybe I had an advantage because I had little expectation. I've seen all previous Batman films and the recent Man of Steel. I'm not a Superman fan, pretty much all his previous films suck IMO. I was curious to see how Ben Affleck would portray Batman.

The plot itself was a little confusing. They kept switching from scene to scene at the start which made it difficult to understand what was going on, especially when they briefly explored their pasts. Seeing Batman portrayed at an older age was interesting. Funny how Alfred looks only a few years older than Batman

I liked the atmosphere of the film in that it was a dark and kind of spooky. There was never really a happy scene, kind of felt on edge throughout. I really enjoyed Affleck's portrayal of Batman. It felt like a more down-to-earth performance. Batman comes across as a thoughtful, flawed character who makes mistakes even though his heart is in the right pace. Feels more like a "rough and tumble" version. Would like to have seen this Batman explored further.

The fight scenes were pretty good. It was refreshing to see the brutal-more believable combat which I think suits Batman and was missing from Bale's portrayal. I hope Affleck gets a decent cameo in Suicide squad.

I though Henry Cavill's performace was okay. I don't think Superman is an easy character to portray. He often comes cross as a stiff piece of cardboard and you need Lois Lane to get any real kind of emotion out of him. The fight scenes with Batman was definitely when Superman was at his best. Eisenberg's eccentric performance as Lex Luthor felt a little over-the-top, but was interesting to see him take on that kind of persona. As for Wonder Woman, she didn't add much to the story.

I appreciate there was a lot of information to fit into the movie and whilst I'm glad it wasn't any longer (two and a half hours was enough) I would liked to have seen character relationships; Superman/Luthor, Batman/Alfred and Batman/Superman explored further.

Spoiler

The fight scenes with Batman and Superman were fucking brutal.

Seeing Batman beat the shit out of Superman felt unrealistic and yeah I know he had kryptonite. I mean he was seconds away from killing Superman which I never expected.

Oh yeah, dumb question; Superman obviously died at the end and with the funeral and everything there was closure. He was dead, end of story. Then right at the end you see earth start to rise from the top of his coffin for like half a second, which implies he's not dead?  That was a terrible ending. He was dead and it should have stayed that way.

I enjoyed it. It's no where near as bad as 1990's Batman and Robin. I'm not Affleck's biggest fan, but I liked his different take on Batman and hope he gets the chance to play the role in a Batman-only film.

[Tornado]

2 hours ago, Brad said:

I also don't appreciate your passive aggressive tone.

You mean like this:

On 12/4/2015 at 8:33 PM, Brad said:

remember when: no colour!!! DC so grimdark!!! ow the edge!!!!!! stop trying so hard!!!

 

Or this:

On 7/9/2015 at 7:52 PM, Brad said:

Both look fantastic, and I'm so over this grimdark hate boner people are going for.

 

 

Going into this movie people had legitimate concerns about the overall writing style and tone of this massive franchise DC keeps trying to get off the ground. YMMV of course, but many of those concerns seem to have been justified based on the finished product even as some of them (especially Batffleck) were mostly agreed to have been averted, and the director who is driving the tentpole movies of this massive attempt at a long running franchise continues to be an idiot with a seemingly tenuous grasp on the material he's adapting. But you did this topic no favors yourself by dismissing strawmanned versions of those concerns out of hand.

[Killtank]

4 hours ago, KHCast said:

Except I didn't say that? I said if you're one of those people that say shit like in the picture, then you're likely butthurt that it isn't getting all the praise in the world and arent willing to listen and write off any complaint as "it's not marvel so you're obviously not gonna be happy" which isn't the case. (Having personality and charm isn't a marvel thing. Star Wars, Indiana jones, suicide squad from the look of it so far, etc are all movies with fun and unique characters that you feel something towards.)

 

And considering the overall gritty and dark tone and lack of good characterization were notable issues people had with the film, the directors cut which last time I checked was being promoted as "more action and violence" I don't expect to change many peoples minds. Maybe it can somewhat fix the incoherent mess of a plot a little, but that's probably it if you ask me.

 

Quote

You know, I'm all for people having opinions. If you enjoyed the film, good for you, but this kind of shit right here, screams denial, plugging your ears, and not being willing to listen to people that have fair complaints.

I'm not trying to parse your words, but this is what you said. If that's not what you meant, then that's okay. I don't want to pick a fight with you or anyone. I chose that time to reply to your post given my interpretation of your comments.

To be honest, I don't think I'm butthurt about anything in particular. It's disappointing that this movie wasn't as good as I wanted to be when I walked into the cinema. I'm fine with listening to any and all complaints. There are plenty of faults to point out, and many of them are absolutely legitimate. I just don't feel like this movie is that awful. I'd still give it a 6.75/10.

Frankly, I love Marvel movies, too. So I've got no issue whatsoever with praising their films. CA:WS is my absolute favorite comic book movie; and I wish BvS had that tone in mind. Yes, it was dark and driven by political intrigue, but it was still fun.

I'm not really trying to argue with anyone here. If you don't like the movie, then that's okay. I was able to derive pleasure from it even with its many faults. I'll go into some detail later, but like I've said, I didn't think it was that bad. Personally, I see it as a mixed bag with plenty of gems inside.

[Brad]

29 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Going into this movie people had legitimate concerns about the overall writing style and tone of this massive franchise DC keeps trying to get off the ground. Many of those concerns seem to have been justified based on the finished product even as some of them (especially Batffleck) were averted, and the director who is driving the tentpole movies of this massive attempt at a long running franchise continues to be an idiot with a seemingly tenuous grasp on the material he's adapting. You do this topic no favors by dismissing strawmanned versions of those concerns out of hand like you've did before the movie released.

Got me there. I was really rooting in this film's favour last year and its slapped me in the face sadly. The film's darker tone is still a positive for me so people who hate this flick for trying something different is still something I disagree with.

Of course, regurgitating things I said last year to belittle the things I'm saying today after we've seen the films release, and can now garner a valid criticism on what legitimately has hindered and helped the movie isn't cool either. 

Also, not getting the point you're trying to make in your last sentence - if I'm reading it correctly, it's bad for me to dismiss strawmanned arguments...? Strawmans attached directly to one of my posts, claiming things which I haven't said and trying to kick up an argument where I did want one? What...?

[Tornado]

It's somewhat hypocritical of you to take a member to task for being passive aggressive in his responses to you when you spent the time in the films preview period peppering various posts with passive aggressive remarks yourself, particularly ones that appear on the surface to align fairly well with the image macro posted above that pppp took so much issue with. Ideally everyone would stop being dicks regarding this movie or the rest of the DCEU, but its a bit late to close the stable after the horses are gone.

[Brad]

Fair enough. I just kinda opened up the thread and posted my thoughts, then I got told I was excusing bad storytelling for pretty visuals, and I was excusing the film for only being for DC fans or something - I didn't look at any of the previous conversation that went on here.

I really wanted this film to be good... sigh. 

[Tornado]

I'm not saying pppp shouldn't tone things down himself, because his rhetoric is just as you described it.

 

 

 

Just that everyone should take a second and calm down before debating this, because this was a clear flashpoint as soon as it was announced.

[KHCast]

38 minutes ago, Killtank said:

 

I'm not trying to parse your words, but this is what you said. If that's not what you meant, then that's okay. I don't want to pick a fight with you or anyone. I chose that time to reply to your post given my interpretation of your comments.

To be honest, I don't think I'm butthurt about anything in particular. It's disappointing that this movie wasn't as good as I wanted to be when I walked into the cinema. I'm fine with listening to any and all complaints. There are plenty of faults to point out, and many of them are absolutely legitimate. I just don't feel like this movie is that awful. I'd still give it a 6.75/10.

Frankly, I love Marvel movies, too. So I've got no issue whatsoever with praising their films. CA:WS is my absolute favorite comic book movie; and I wish BvS had that tone in mind. Yes, it was dark and driven by political intrigue, but it was still fun.

I'm not really trying to argue with anyone here. If you don't like the movie, then that's okay. I was able to derive pleasure from it even with its many faults. I'll go into some detail later, but like I've said, I didn't think it was that bad. Personally, I see it as a mixed bag with plenty of gems inside.

Again, you're claiming I'm saying anyone who enjoys the films is in denial, which again I never said. I literally am referring to the picture and idea being presented, that I don't like it because it's not marvel, which is completely false and quite clearly screams fanboyism.

[Killtank]

2 hours ago, KHCast said:

Again, you're claiming I'm saying anyone who enjoys the films is in denial, which again I never said. I literally am referring to the picture and idea being presented, that I don't like it because it's not marvel, which is completely false and quite clearly screams fanboyism.

Oh okay. It's all good. Thank you for clarifying. If you were only referring to the image in question, then I simply misunderstood.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Opening weekend was decent, but has some pretty dangerous foreshadowing that the legs could be very poor indeed, possibly Batman Returns levels

http://collider.com/batman-v-superman-box-office-record/

Quote

And yet the reason for the drop in estimates from Friday and Saturday’s box office numbers to the actual report on Monday is this: Batman v Superman has apparently set the worst Friday-to-Sunday domestic box office drop rate for a superhero movie ever. As Forbes reports, the Stateside box office take for BvS dropped from Friday’s $82 million to Sunday’s $37 million, for a drop of 55%. For a comparison, Fantastic Four dropped 48% over the course of its opening weekend. Even taking the Easter Sunday holiday out of the equation, Batman v Superman’s Friday-to-Saturday drop came in at 38%, second worst only to The Dark Knight Rises’ 40% drop.

So  It had a worse drop than F4, which admittedly didn't have great viewing in the first place, but Batman Returns had a similar drop, and then a major first to second week drop which resulted in a short 6 week run, and Tim Burton loosing the Batman franchise. If the legs drop as bad as BF, or F4, well, Snyder may just be out. And honestly, Easter Sunday doesn't really aggravate a drop unless it's word of mouth is getting toxic. Opening weekend was affected, and while it was a decent opening, the signs of trouble are all there, and it was weaker than anticipated, and it was front-loaded. It could make an ok profit, but hopefully WB is noticin the warning signs, I mean Batman and Robin had a strong opening too, but look what happened after that, though I think we'd all prefer retooling(ala Batman returns to Batman Forever), rather than dormancy though

[DarkLight]

So basically it's Man of Steel all over again. I mean it's following a similar pattern so far:

-Divisive reception amongst critics and fans

-A decent opening and equally decent sales worldwide

-Despite the above example, WB and DC don't consider it the big hit they expected it to be (didn't they say it had to break 1 billion to qualify as a success?)

 

 

[Hyp3hat]

I mean, WB/DC fundamentally and critically misjudged this whole thing. The Nolan Batmans were 'dark' and 'gritty', but Batman is that sort of character anyway. Those Batman flicks really paved the way culturally for the Marvel movies, moreso than the Spiderman movies before, but the lesson that WB seem to have taken is that they need to be the 'serious' side of the superhero coin, as opposed to Marvel being all light and frothy (which is gross mischaracterisation of how Marvel have treated their properties). 

Just like a dark and gritty Guardians of The Galaxy would have been awful, so is a dark and edgy Superman. Superman is not a dark and gritty dude, he's Space Jesus, but I think the middling reception to Superman Returns (and the raves for Nolan's Batman trilogy) told them 'people want grit! They want THE EDGE'. 

Cheesy as it is, the OG Christopher Reeves Superman just nails the character in a lot of ways. He's the American Dream - an immigrant who loves his new home, and is fundamentally good. Reeves could charm the pants off of America too, which helps. Cavill is a fucking snooze. 

The other thing is their choice of director. Marvel got a bunch of seriously talented dudes with pedigrees of making good blockbusters and TV, who can understand character and construct narratives convincingly. You almost don't notice that what you're watching is fundamentally ludicrous. 

Warner Brothers might as well have hired McG. 300 is fun, but it is definitively trash. The guy makes music videos. The fact that I've read several reviews of this asking 'what was Luthor's skin in the game?' is pretty telling - Lex Luthor is a genius criminal mastermind, but you have to actually write that in and not just accept it as a given. He also thinks if he has enough portentous dialogue, it's a serious movie about stuff. No it isn't.

The thing is, DC should have enough warning signs that Edgelording Superman up is not really what people want! The Flash, Supergirl and Arrow are supposed to be goofy funtime shows that rate reliably well, but those instances of those characters are not in the cinematic universe. Gotham, on the other hand, is unintentionally hilarious because of how seriously it takes itself - 'how do you like my hardboiled cop cliches, Edward J. Nigma?' 

IDK, the whole thing just seems so terribly wrong and stupid, and they keep doubling down on their mistakes...