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I'm 99% sure that was just Shadow reappearing though. In fact, Sonic says explcilty after that "Hey it's not his speed he must be using the chaos emerald to warp."  

I think you might want to adjust those odds. Despite what Sonic said, both the visual representation of Shadow watching Sonic as he blew by him, and Sonic's initial recognition of being able to track Shadow as he did so proves that untrue.

If Shadow was disappearing and reappearing not only would he have not been able to watch him as he went by (which both clearly did) but Sonic wouldn't have had the presence of mind to pivot directly to where Shadow ended up. Sonic knew where he "teleported" off to because he saw him move through the space. All of that combined made that not so much a "warp" as it was warp speed.

 

Ah I see. You've misunderstood the entire argument. We're not discussing the different things that CC can do. We know it can warp both time and space. We're discussing whether CC's space warping/teleportation ability is really that: teleportation or a wormhole type technique (which it clearly is eg. Space Colony Ark, the Biolizard and the Black Comet >.>), or simply not teleportation at all, but actually just manipulating space in order to initiate an instantaneous shifting of one body over a fixed distance as well the implications of that in terms of a speed ranking.

 

How can you be so convinced either way? There is nothing in the series that leaves even the slighted bit of a definitive answer on the issue. Biolizard and the Black Comet and all those other tricks can't be pointed to as definite responses simply because there are too many ways to explain that kind of phenomenon. You could scream it was a wormhole till your lungs were blue and that is a fine theory, but that doesn't make it any more true then someone who claims it a simply acceleration of matter (because matter becomes intangible when it gets accelerated to that obscene degree). Both would appear as a "teleport" both could seemingly go through walls and both would be logical conclusions you could argue. You can't just accept you're theory of chaos control in spite of all others. There is nothing concrete to support it. Its just your personal fannon at best. 

Like I said before, CC is so unrefined and overused (He uses it to make explosions, chaos spears and laser beams for crying out loud) its better off being described as anything and everything. Any certainties you think you can pull from CC have no place in this discussion.

Edited by Sega DogTagz
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@GUILD

No, it means you can calculate the time. You don't know the distance he traveled, because like you said, "We don't know how CC works". This is not that complicated.

Not knowing exactly how CC works doesn't mean you can't measure any distance Shadow travels with any given warp. Most people don't know exactly how a car works but you can still measure any distance a car travels by just measuring it.

So essentially, I'm trying to establish some sort of equal grounds on which to make a conclusion of speed (seeing as equal grounds are necessary to make the conclusion) by laying out ground rules and boundaries that filter out qualities that would derail said equality and it's a problem. Presumably..because you don't understand them?

No because the rules you've tried to establish are either scientifically or logically inconsistent.

So the effort disparity between Biking and Running for humans who tire after a mile is equal to the frictional disparity between Hovering and Running for these beings who never tire at all. Something doesn't seem right here.

I didn't say it was equivalent. I said it was a factor to take into account if you're going to be bitching that warping is cheating yet gliding isn't.

I guess game aren't canon then? Much more the adventure ones?

Have we seen him run in the Adventure games for extended periods of time without the aid of his hover shoes? No? Then your conclusion doesn't actually mean anything.

You are without a doubt, a certified idiot. That or you have selective reading and/or are trolling.

I'll get back to this in a minute.

but we have no idea of the means by which they reached B from A, we cannot assuredly determine the distance traveled.

We've seen the way Chaos Control works in different scenarios to say that Shadow's movement can be measured in distance. So you're still wrong.

Now, back to the penultimate statement- You're getting a strike and a week-long suspension for not only flaming and directly insulting another member, but a member who happens to be a mod, the one hardass on the team at that. You want to snark about selective reading? Read the rules of the forum if you want to plan on staying here for long.

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 I'm confused as to why everyone keeps talking about Chaos Control?

No, I can't say I agree with that. I mean, a lot of people may have said it, but that doesn't make it true.

Sonic and Shadow are both very fast, but overall Sonic is faster. I mean, it just feels kind of obvious and Shadow has even admitted it back in Sonic Chronicles.

So you disagree with canon, then?

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So you disagree with canon, then?

I don't think Shadow being faster than Sonic is really canon, per say. Literally nothing in Sonic games is consistent, and characters are sped up and slowed down depending on Sega's mood. Plus, the main aspect of Sonic's character is that he's the fastest, and if he doesn't have that going for him... what does he have? lmao.

EDIT: Actually I would like to reaffirm my earlier sentiments, Sonic is not even remotely the fastest, Eggman is. Eggman is obviously the fastest, I don't know how I could've been so wrong.

Edited by Weh
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I don't think Shadow being faster than Sonic is really canon, per say. Literally nothing in Sonic games is consistent, and characters are sped up and slowed down depending on Sega's mood. Plus, the main aspect of Sonic's character is that he's the fastest, and if he doesn't have that going for him... what does he have? lmao.

EDIT: Actually I would like to reaffirm my earlier sentiments, Sonic is not even remotely the fastest, Eggman is. Eggman is obviously the fastest, I don't know how I could've been so wrong.

Shadow has always been said to be the spitting image of Sonic and matching him in speed and agility. Like in the Sonic Generations image I posted.latest?cb=20130212202420
Shadow's character was designed with the purpose of being identical to Sonic physically and ability-wise. 

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So you disagree with canon, then?

Of course not. If anything, I'm siding with the canon. There's never been (to my knowledge, at least) anything that's pointed out Shadow being faster than Sonic. However, in Sonic Chronicles, Shadow even says that Sonic is faster than him (or at least, he agrees with it). How in the world am I disagreeing with canon by basing my opinion off something that happened in the games?

Shadow has always been said to be the spitting image of Sonic and matching him in speed and agility. Like in the Sonic Generations image I posted.latest?cb=20130212202420
Shadow's character was designed with the purpose of being identical to Sonic physically and ability-wise. 

I'm guessing maybe the statement here has been taken out of context. When the Generations profile stated that "Shadow is the spitting image of Sonic, sharing his agility and speed." I think it's saying that Shadow is fast like Sonic. It's not saying he's equally as fast or even faster.

Also, that image is kind of small. Let's use this one?

500px-Shadow_profile_SG.png

Now we can actually read it, lol.

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Yeah theirs was no way Gerald knew what Sonic looked liked, blue blur wasn't even born yet when Shadow was created.

If anything I would say Gerald based Shadow more so around that Mural in Hidden Palace Zone, which I guess he interpret it as a Hedgehog like anthro creature. he certainly wasn't far off through.

Edited by Dantemustdie00
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For every Bio that says Shadow is just as fast as Sonic, there is another that contradicts it by saying Sonic is the fastest no if's ands or buts.

 

Sonicbiomodern.png

 

That's from the same game lol. If you take this text literally, than Shadow shouldn't be able to match him in a contest of speed.

Seriously, this has been going on for years in the character bio's. Sonic is labeled as the fastest thing alive and Shadow gets branded as his equal. If I'm not mistaken, its been stated a few times that Metal Sonic outperforms Sonic in both Speed and Power. So you can take that and run with it too.

Edited by Sega DogTagz
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  • 2 weeks later...

@GUILD

No, it means you can calculate the time. You don't know the distance he traveled, because like you said, "We don't know how CC works". This is not that complicated.

Not knowing exactly how CC works doesn't mean you can't measure any distance Shadow travels with any given warp. Most people don't know exactly how a car works but you can still measure any distance a car travels by just measuring it.

So essentially, I'm trying to establish some sort of equal grounds on which to make a conclusion of speed (seeing as equal grounds are necessary to make the conclusion) by laying out ground rules and boundaries that filter out qualities that would derail said equality and it's a problem. Presumably..because you don't understand them?

No because the rules you've tried to establish are either scientifically or logically inconsistent.

So the effort disparity between Biking and Running for humans who tire after a mile is equal to the frictional disparity between Hovering and Running for these beings who never tire at all. Something doesn't seem right here.

I didn't say it was equivalent. I said it was a factor to take into account if you're going to be bitching that warping is cheating yet gliding isn't.

I guess game aren't canon then? Much more the adventure ones?

Have we seen him run in the Adventure games for extended periods of time without the aid of his hover shoes? No? Then your conclusion doesn't actually mean anything.

You are without a doubt, a certified idiot. That or you have selective reading and/or are trolling.

I'll get back to this in a minute.

but we have no idea of the means by which they reached B from A, we cannot assuredly determine the distance traveled.

We've seen the way Chaos Control works in different scenarios to say that Shadow's movement can be measured in distance. So you're still wrong.

Now, back to the penultimate statement- You're getting a strike and a week-long suspension for not only flaming and directly insulting another member, but a member who happens to be a mod, the one hardass on the team at that. You want to snark about selective reading? Read the rules of the forum if you want to plan on staying here for long.

:lol::lol:Wow!! I find it extremely interesting how the same period when I didn't have the time to spend on SSMB is even greater amount of time you banned me for lmao. Specifically, I get back to the site and it turns out I had been banned somewhere within that amount of time that I had been busy. I find that kinda hilarious.

At any rate, I'm not shocked to find that you've not only been hypocritical, but ludicrously selective in your application of common terms such as "flaming" and "insult". Considering that you clearly see yourself as operating above this line and within the bounds of being cordial (which is bullshit) let's try and make some sort of a comparison and find a difference. Of everything I said to you that could honestly be qualified as an either a.) an insult or b.) flaming, are "You are an idiot", which was an honest personal observation over more than enough back and forth dialogue. So yeah, lots of bs flying around in your post from a week ago. Congrats for banning.

 

I think you might want to adjust those odds. Despite what Sonic said, both the visual representation of Shadow watching Sonic as he blew by him, and Sonic's initial recognition of being able to track Shadow as he did so proves that untrue.

You're discounting the obvious info given to us by the writers that has been backed up by description upon description of chaos control in favor of your interpretation of a scene, dude.

If Shadow was disappearing and reappearing not only would he have not been able to watch him as he went by (which both clearly did) but Sonic wouldn't have had the presence of mind to pivot directly to where Shadow ended up. Sonic knew where he "teleported" off to because he saw him move through the space. All of that combined made that not so much a "warp" as it was warp speed.

Yeah..if you watch the scene, like I just did, You see Shadow disappear as the space he just left warps and sparks a bit THE CAMERA CUTS, and you see Sonic a.) barely catch Shadow out of the corner of his eye and b.) begin to turn around to face him before he appears again on the rooftop. Seems perfectly like he could have reappeared mid-air to me. None of that proves that he was just flying about. I'm free to my conjectures.

How can you be so convinced either way? There is nothing in the series that leaves even the slighted bit of a definitive answer on the issue. Biolizard and the Black Comet and all those other tricks can't be pointed to as definite responses simply because there are too many ways to explain that kind of phenomenon. You could scream it was a wormhole till your lungs were blue and that is a fine theory, but that doesn't make it any more true then someone who claims it a simply acceleration of matter (because matter becomes intangible when it gets accelerated to that obscene degree). Both would appear as a "teleport" both could seemingly go through walls and both would be logical conclusions you could argue. You can't just accept you're theory of chaos control in spite of all others. There is nothing concrete to support it. Its just your personal fannon at best. 

Or, you could think, like I did. If the biolizard, ark and comet were all a matter of accelerating matter, a.) the biolizard would have crashed into the ceiling and been done, the ark could have just been moved by Sonic and Shadow seeing as they don't need chaos control to enhance their speed or strength in super form. The only difference CC could have made is warping. Same exact deal for the Comet. You say that matter becomes intangible if it goes too fast, but where is this written as a fact when we know that even at many many times the speed of sound, an object is very much still tangible. This in addition to the fact that it isn't a scientific property that going the speed of light = intangibility. So, this is all important in relation to your point bc a very visible and easily calculable (counting) amount of time elapses between the time when chaos control initiates and is completed despite the fact that the distance crossed is not that far (eg. Sonic vs Shadow in the end of SA2B and the intro of Shadow the Hedgehog) This means that the user isn't even going the speed of light. i.e. no intangibility via speed. That leaves a. simple matter acceleration without intangibility and b.) outright warping. Again, if a.) biolizard goes splat. Sonic and Shadow are wasting their time. If b.) Well...ok..I guess. Biolizard doesnt wanna go splat yet, shadow doesn't wanna tear up the city flying a comet into outer space and wanna get the ark back into orbit without the risk of tearing it apart with the sudden change of direction + it looks cooler.

Like I said before, CC is so unrefined and overused (He uses it to make explosions, chaos spears and laser beams for crying out loud) its better off being described as anything and everything.

Pretty sure those are separate techniques all together, but whatever. Either way, CC can't be considered, because we don't know the distance traveled.

Any certainties you think you can pull from CC have no place in this discussion.

That's a pretty strange thing to say considering "Despite what Sonic said, both the visual representation of Shadow watching Sonic as he blew by him, and Sonic's initial recognition of being able to track Shadow as he did so proves that untrue."

Sorry I took so long to reply, but real life was doing its thing. Good thing is I'm on vacation now.

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Man. I can't figure out what's worse: The ego or the doubling down on the insult. You're going right back out the door, and for good. If you actually want to come back, you can e-mail the place in about six months, but I don't expect administration to be all that happy with your fuckboy attitude.

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CC doesn't count and neither do hover boards as I'm only counting their own speed not external machines.

 

PS: Sonic and Knuckles would trump Shadow at Chaos Control anyway :P:P

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I had a really long post about this but it just got deleted again so I'll go through it quickly.

Metal Sonic:

He was designed to match Sonic and moves like overdrive push him to even higher speeds.

Tails:

Tails has followed Sonic consistently for years now and has managed to keep up with him. Under Sonic's tutelage his speed ability has greatly increased.

Amy: 

She actually catches Sonic!

Knuckles:

Is said to be as fast as Sonic is strong and Sonic is no push over. 

Shadow:

Because his hoverboots are shoes then they have no influence on his speed rank. Similarly Chaos Control also has no influence as it is not him(And Sonic and Knuckles do it better anyway).The only time he runs is his small jog.

Jet:Just like Shadow we actually have no way of measuring his speed. 

 

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I had a really long post about this but it just got deleted again so I'll go through it quickly.

Metal Sonic:

He was designed to match Sonic and moves like overdrive push him to even higher speeds.

Tails:

Tails has followed Sonic consistently for years now and has managed to keep up with him. Under Sonic's tutelage his speed ability has greatly increased.

Amy: 

She actually catches Sonic!

Knuckles:

Is said to be as fast as Sonic is strong and Sonic is no push over. 

Shadow:

Because his hoverboots are shoes then they have no influence on his speed rank. Similarly Chaos Control also has no influence as it is not him(And Sonic and Knuckles do it better anyway).The only time he runs is his small jog.

Jet:Just like Shadow we actually have no way of measuring his speed. 

 

As far as I'm aware, Sonic and Knuckles don't use Chaos Control. They could, but it's an ability that only Shadow ever really uses and is the most skilled with.

Top Tier:

Sonic 

Metal Sonic

Shadow

Mighty the Armadillo

Tails

Silver (In Sonic Chronicles, it's mentioned that Hedgehogs in the series can run at high speeds, besides, Silver can keep up with Sonic)

 

High:

Blaze

Tikal

Espio

Amy

Knuckles

Rouge

Cream

Medium:

Omega (Jet Boosters)

Charmy Bee

Bottom:

Vector

Big The Cat

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Considering Knuckles' Chaotix states that Charmy is the fastest insect in the world, he'd probably be in the High-tier at least. 

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Okay, I'll take a crack at this:

 

S - Class

Metal Sonic (Sources go back and forth on whether he's faster than Sonic or simply has better acceleration, but for the sake of this list I'm putting him slightly above.)

Sonic/Shadow (Sonic is the "fastest thing alive" and Shadow is always said to be his equal.)

 

A - Class

Blaze (She can boost in the Rush games, she's the fastest character in '06, a speed type in Zero Gravity, and Percival uses Cavalier style in SatBK.)

Espio (His appearances consistently show him to be every bit as fast and agile as one would expect given his ninja training.)

 

B - Class

Knuckles (Knuckles and Tails are consistently show to be able to keep up with Sonic, but, with the sole exception of London Olympics, every game where top-speed varies between characters shows Knuckles to be the faster of the two.)

Tails (See Knuckles above.)

 

C - Class

Jet (On Type-J jet is even faster than Sonic, on foot his athleticism makes him swift but not exceptionally speedy.)

Amy (When character types aren't in play Amy is usually shown to be slower than the members of Team Sonic, but she's still fast enough to qualify as a speed type compared to her teammates.)

Cream (Rabbits are known for being rather quick and the Advance game show her to be pretty fast.)

Rouge (She's all-around athletic thanks to her G.U.N. training, but no specialized for speed like Espio and Jet.)

Charmy (He's a hyperactive little bee, but we've never really seen him moving faster than any other fly character.)

Wave (While a skilled Extreme Gear rider and reasonably fit the amount of time she spends building and maintaining Gear leaves her less time for physical training than Jet.)

Silver (The ruined future doesn't have a lot of room to run, Silver is not especially slow, but he's not especially fast either.)

Gamma (He moves at a decent clip in drive mode.)

 

D - Class

Vector (Of the franchise's large characters Vector is one of the leanest and most muscular, giving him an edge on the heavier and less fit power characters.)

Omega (His jets help compensate for his immense weight, but they can only do so much.)

Storm (While it is muscle rather than fat his immense bulk still limits his movement speed.)

 

F - Class

Big (He's shockingly quick for as fat as he is, but the fact remains that it is fat and thus a lot of dead weight that the likes of Vector and Storm don't have to deal with.)

Chaos (Slow as molasses. But rest assured that if he does manage to catch you your ass is grass.)

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Okay, I'll take a crack at this:

 

S - Class

Metal Sonic (Sources go back and forth on whether he's faster than Sonic or simply has better acceleration, but for the sake of this list I'm putting him slightly above.)

Sonic/Shadow (Sonic is the "fastest thing alive" and Shadow is always said to be his equal.)

 

A - Class

Blaze (She can boost in the Rush games, she's the fastest character in '06, a speed type in Zero Gravity, and Percival uses Cavalier style in SatBK.)

Espio (His appearances consistently show him to be every bit as fast and agile as one would expect given his ninja training.)

 

B - Class

Knuckles (Knuckles and Tails are consistently show to be able to keep up with Sonic, but, with the sole exception of London Olympics, every game where top-speed varies between characters shows Knuckles to be the faster of the two.)

Tails (See Knuckles above.)

 

C - Class

Jet (On Type-J jet is even faster than Sonic, on foot his athleticism makes him swift but not exceptionally speedy.)

Amy (When character types aren't in play Amy is usually shown to be slower than the members of Team Sonic, but she's still fast enough to qualify as a speed type compared to her teammates.)

Cream (Rabbits are known for being rather quick and the Advance game show her to be pretty fast.)

Rouge (She's all-around athletic thanks to her G.U.N. training, but no specialized for speed like Espio and Jet.)

Charmy (He's a hyperactive little bee, but we've never really seen him moving faster than any other fly character.)

Wave (While a skilled Extreme Gear rider and reasonably fit the amount of time she spends building and maintaining Gear leaves her less time for physical training than Jet.)

Silver (The ruined future doesn't have a lot of room to run, Silver is not especially slow, but he's not especially fast either.)

Gamma (He moves at a decent clip in drive mode.)

 

D - Class

Vector (Of the franchise's large characters Vector is one of the leanest and most muscular, giving him an edge on the heavier and less fit power characters.)

Omega (His jets help compensate for his immense weight, but they can only do so much.)

Storm (While it is muscle rather than fat his immense bulk still limits his movement speed.)

 

F - Class

Big (He's shockingly quick for as fat as he is, but the fact remains that it is fat and thus a lot of dead weight that the likes of Vector and Storm don't have to deal with.)

Chaos (Slow as molasses. But rest assured that if he does manage to catch you your ass is grass.)

Last I checked, Tails is much faster than Knuckles. Fast enough to beat Sonic easily in a few races by flying.

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Last I checked, Tails is much faster than Knuckles.

Sonic R, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic '06, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games, and Mario and Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Games say otherwise.

 

Fast enough to beat Sonic easily in a few races by flying.

That has nothing to do with his speed though. Speed is distance over time, Tails taking shortcuts like those seen in Adventure isn't a matter of him traveling a greater distance in the same time or traveling the same distance in less time. It's a matter of finding routes that require him to travel less distance overall.

Edited by Bowbowis
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Just from playing the games it's kinda obvious that Dr. Eggman is faster than Sonic/Shadow and Sonic/Shadow are faster than everyone so the Doctor wins in my book.

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Honestly I never liked it when any game made Tails slower than Knuckles. It kinda makes sense in the racing and other sports games for balance reasons, but this is Sonic's best friend we're talking about here, who trained himself to be fast enough to keep up with Sonic and taught himself to roll into a ball, and for him to be slower than Knuckles is just utterly baffling to me, and it made me angry several times in the past, and still kinda makes me angry now. Not like we'll be able to play as him in a main game again anytime soon... I also always preferred Silver being kinda slowish, and I'm fine with Shadow and Blaze being as fast as Sonic, but I'm not one to make tiers so much as say "Well I like X being faster/slower than Y."

 

Edited by Bolt
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Hm, even I will admit that it's weird to see a character whose very (actual) name is a pun on speed to be slower than the guy whose main focus is on using his super strength capabilities to get things done. Not to say that I want Knux to necessarily be the absolute slomo of Team Sonic, but it just sorta devalues the little fox cub a little on what he's capable of doing, especially since he's the equal parts bestie and apprentice to the guy who's known as the Fastest Thing Alive.

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Sonic R, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic '06, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games, and Mario and Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Games say otherwise.

 

That has nothing to do with his speed though. Speed is distance over time, Tails taking shortcuts like those seen in Adventure isn't a matter of him traveling a greater distance in the same time or traveling the same distance in less time. It's a matter of finding routes that require him to travel less distance overall.

Because of how fast Sonic is, he should be able to go the long way faster than someone taking a shortcut. So if Tails can go through the shortcut faster than Sonic taking the long way, Tails' speed has to be close enough to Sonic's. In addition to that, Tails' primary ability is Flight. That alone means that Tails should be faster than the guy who's primary ability is "Power" (strength). 

I don't think the Mario and Sonic games, or Sonic 06 are accurate references for character speeds in relation to each other. Isn't Knuckles faster than Sonic in Adventure 2?  
Tails can reach Boost Mode faster than Knuckles in Sonic Advance 2. 

Is there any way for you to show me proof about Tails and Knuckles speeds in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes? 

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Because of how fast Sonic is, he should be able to go the long way faster than someone taking a shortcut. So if Tails can go through the shortcut faster than Sonic taking the long way, Tails' speed has to be close enough to Sonic's.

That depends on the shortcut and also assumes that Sonic is going full speed during the races in Adventure and not deliberately slowing himself down to give Tails a fighting chance (which would be in line with the given explanation for why he isn't smoking everyone else in the Olympics).

 

In addition to that, Tails' primary ability is Flight. That alone means that Tails should be faster than the guy who's primary ability is "Power" (strength). 

Yes. Tails' primary ability is flight, as in the ability to travel by air for an extended period of time, not necessarily to move quickly, which would be speed.

Knuckles' primary ability is strength, as in the ability to impart a large amount of force unto an object, not necessarily to move quickly, which would be speed.

As you can see their primary abilities are equally not speed. So what is it that you're getting at here?

 

I don't think the Mario and Sonic games, or Sonic 06 are accurate references for character speeds in relation to each other.

If they were isolated cases I might agree with you but the fact is that they're not isolated cases and are consistent with the other games in the franchise in this regard.

 

Isn't Knuckles faster than Sonic in Adventure 2?  

Yes. He's also faster than Tails in Sonic Adventure 2

 

Tails can reach Boost Mode faster than Knuckles in Sonic Advance 2. 

Which makes sense given that Tails' acceleration is portrayed as being higher than Knuckles' with the same level of consistency that Knuckles' speed is portrayed as being higher than Tails'.

 

Is there any way for you to show me proof about Tails and Knuckles speeds in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes? 

https://info.sonicretro.org/SCHG:Sonic_Adventure_DX:_PC/EXE_Editing#Physics

In Adventure Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails have the same speed cap of 16 (a trait they share with Amy and Gamma). However under their own power Sonic can accelerate to a speed of 3, Knuckles can reach 2.5, while Tails can only achieve a speed of 2 meaning that without external influences like springs, dash panels, and the like Knuckles is indeed faster than Tails in SA1.

As for Heroes, Retro doesn't have a list of speed values for the different characters (at least not that I can see), but anyone whose played it can back me up on the fact that the fly characters are much slower than the power characters in that game.

Edited by Bowbowis
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That depends on the shortcut and also assumes that Sonic is going full speed during the races in Adventure and not deliberately slowing himself down to give Tails a fighting chance (which would be in line with the given explanation for why he isn't smoking everyone else in the Olympics).

 

Yes. Tails' primary ability is flight, as in the ability to travel by air for an extended period of time, not necessarily to move quickly, which would be speed.

Knuckles' primary ability is strength, as in the ability to impart a large amount of force unto an object, not necessarily to move quickly, which would be speed.

As you can see their primary abilities are equally not speed. So what is it that you're getting at here?

 

If they were isolated cases I might agree with you but the fact is that they're not isolated cases and are consistent with the other games in the franchise in this regard.

 

Yes. He's also faster than Tails in Sonic Adventure 2

 

Which makes sense given that Tails' acceleration is portrayed as being higher than Knuckles' with the same level of consistency that Knuckles' speed is portrayed as being higher than Tails'.

 

https://info.sonicretro.org/SCHG:Sonic_Adventure_DX:_PC/EXE_Editing#Physics

In Adventure Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails have the same speed cap of 16 (a trait they share with Amy and Gamma). However under their own power Sonic can accelerate to a speed of 3, Knuckles can reach 2.5, while Tails can only achieve a speed of 2 meaning that without external influences like springs, dash panels, and the like Knuckles is indeed faster than Tails in SA1.

As for Heroes, Retro doesn't have a list of speed values for the different characters (at least not that I can see), but anyone whose played it can back me up on the fact that the fly characters are much slower than the power characters in that game.

For Sonic Adventure, is that Tails speed on the ground or while flying?

 

And about Flight and Power:

The very nature of Speed, Flight and Power is similar to Team Heroes dynamic. Flight is like an extension of speed. Someone who is supposed to be the best flyer is also going to be known for incredible speed and agility. Power, however, is like a counter force to Speed. An unstoppable force vs an immovable object sort of scenario. Someone with incredible strength will usually be very fast (at least they should be), but not as fast as a speedster or a flyer, who specialize in speed and agility. 

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For Sonic Adventure, is that Tails speed on the ground or while flying?

Both.

 

And about Flight and Power:

The very nature of Speed, Flight and Power is similar to Team Heroes dynamic. Flight is like an extension of speed. Someone who is supposed to be the best flyer is also going to be known for incredible speed and agility. Power, however, is like a counter force to Speed. An unstoppable force vs an immovable object sort of scenario. Someone with incredible strength will usually be very fast (at least they should be), but not as fast as a speedster or a flyer, who specialize in speed and agility. 

Nowhere is it written that fliers must be fast, or that strongmen must be slow, or, more to the point, that any given strongman must be slower than any given flier. SEGA clearly doesn't feel beholden to your reasoning given the fact the power characters are faster than the fly characters in Heroes and that, outside of London Olympics, Knuckles is always Tails equal or superior in speed. Ultimately this is just you bullshitting a justification for Tails being faster than Knuckles despite the fact that, outside of one anomalous instance, he is not and never has been portrayed as being so. In the face of the facts your argument here holds about as much water as if you'd said that  2 + 2 = 5.

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