Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[King Scoopa Koopa]

7 hours ago, horridus said:

And slight aside, it still amazes me that he doesn't actually get that the Freedom Fighters WEREN'T a military group with a stringent military hierarchy.

That said, Geoffrey wasn't even a part of their group, was he? I thought he led another group and was just sort of helping out.

7 hours ago, SBR2 said:

"See it's not that Sally was raped. As the person in authority she could have just told him to stop." Holy Shit what is wrong with this man!?

I don't know, but I'm reminded of the time he took pictures of some female cosplayers without their knowledge to prove a point, then waved off the people saying "cosplay is not consent", saying that was just something they were making up.

[SBR2]

8 minutes ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

That said, Geoffrey wasn't even a part of their group, was he? I thought he led another group and was just sort of helping out.

I don't know, but I'm reminded of the time he took pictures of some female cosplayers without their knowledge to prove a point, then waved off the people saying "cosplay is not consent", saying that was just something they were making up.

1. Yes he wasn't a member of the Freedom Fighters he was part of a group called the Rebel Underground which he stole the idea from Antoine's father.

2. I genuinely forgot he did that!

[Zonic 2099]

Ken just may be the only person in existence to constantly remind people of their never live it down moment. Is the universal rejection of such a bafflingly bad idea that hard to swallow? For Ken, Yes. Very much yes.

[Acquainted Guy]

 

P.S. This is my first post and I'm not sure how to include tweets so I took screenshots.

[SBR2]

I know this is well beside the point but does anyone else find his tendency to call you by your first name when replying really annoying? It comes across super condescending. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 hour ago, Acquainted Guy said:

P.S. This is my first post and I'm not sure how to include tweets so I took screenshots.

Copy and paste the link of the Tweet into SSMB's text box, and it'll automatically embed. Make sure the link has "www.twitter" and not "mobile.twitter", or else it won't embed properly.

[The Tenth Doctor]

If any of you talk to him, call him Kenneth. Please.

Also unsure if thats how copyright works. They aren't using it so if I use it and they don't notice, its cool. His point on fans using it is meaningless because Sega don't mind fans doing anything with their stuff (hence Deviantart) but if you start to make money off it, think they might not be as happy. Especially from someone on their naughty list.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Acquainted Guy said:

SEGA allows the fans to use ALL their characters in fan projects, not just the ones from Sonic Chronicles. Not that it matters because the difference here is that you're planning on using it for material you plan to sell to the masses. Not only that, but its material you tried to sue them over. This isn't the same as merely charging for commissions of fan-art at this point. I don't know if its worth the risk to sneak in some shit you factually do not own just to see if they'll pay attention, Ken.

Try as you might to prove to the masses that you're just a clever motherfucker playing 4D chess with two companies that could grind you to ashes if they wanted but, really, you'll just be flinging darts into your own ass while claiming you're winning the game.

[horridus]

2 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

SEGA allows the fans to use ALL their characters in fan projects, not just the ones from Sonic Chronicles. Not that it matters because the difference here is that you're planning on using it for material you plan to sell to the masses. Not only that, but its material you tried to sue them over. This isn't the same as merely charging for commissions of fan-art at this point. I don't know if its worth the risk to sneak in some shit you factually do not own just to see if they'll pay attention, Ken.

Try as you might to prove to the masses that you're just a clever motherfucker playing 4D chess with two companies that could grind you to ashes if they wanted but, really, you'll just be flinging darts into your own ass while claiming you're winning the game.

To say Penders' logic is wobbly is underselling it, even compared to his usual leaps of logic. As I said elsewhere, just because any of the companies involved aren't presently making use of anything in Chronicles, that doesn't mean that they no longer have the copyright. By that logic, you could steal any number of characters who haven't been used by Disney or Marvel or whatever and they'd be powerless to stop you from claiming them as your own and using them for your own work. What Penders is suggesting here is, frankly, insane. It's him interpreting the law in a way that benefits him exclusively while ignoring the fact that what he's doing could put him in very real trouble. 

Likewise, as you mentioned, the bitterest irony here is that after a near decade of dismissing any criticism of his work being fanwork... that's precisely what he's reduced this entire godforsaken project to. Fanwork. He's in essence demanding his work be treated as if it were fanwork while he has the right to attempt to profit off it, all the while screaming about the original distinctness of his work and how it DOESN'T need the Sonic Connection to stand on its own, even as he does everything in his power to do otherwise. 

And frankly even if he is aware of the contradictions and how sorely doing this undermines his claims about everything he does- and I am no longer certain that he is- even IF he were permitted to get away with this? It would largely be because he wouldn't really be worth the resources spent on shutting down what ultimately amounts to a penny ante publishing scheme. He's basically screaming about having a master plan when at the end of the day, its contingent upon none of the players really caring enough and him declaring himself a winner because of it. 

Also, something that popped up within the chain of replies, but the subject of Scourge came up-

 

I feel like this is one of those times where Penders reveals more about himself than he ever intended. He's treating Flynn like he was out to steal something of his when ultimately all he did was inject new life in one of Penders stupid, trite little ideas... and for that, Penders talks about him like this and frames Scourge's existence in these terms. Its astounding. 

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

13 minutes ago, horridus said:

I feel like this is one of those times where Penders reveals more about himself than he ever intended. He's treating Flynn like he was out to steal something of his when ultimately all he did was inject new life in one of Penders stupid, trite little ideas... and for that, Penders talks about him like this and frames Scourge's existence in these terms. Its astounding. 

This is one of the scummiest, most tactless things Penders has ever come out with, business wise. A perfect insight of the man who fucked over Ben Hurst to try kickstart a doomed shitty project of his own. Here he is practically admitting that he knows full well that Ian breathed life into this character, that he made this character far more distinctive and interesting than he ever could, and Penders has basically just admitted "lol well fuck him for doing that, I'm going to abuse his hard work now!". This scumbag literally intends on stealing someone else's work, and acting like a smug asshole about it.

Not to mention how fucking idiotic this is. You literally can't just say "Oh, I made a character called EVIL SONIC THE HEDGEHOG and then Ian Flynn - working for SEGA and Archie Comics - took EVIL SONIC THE HEDGEHOG and changed him into a different character. I refuse to believe you can just copyright this character just because you add evil to his title. What is literally stopping anyone from doing this same trick on him? If you could do that, it would be a very blatant way to loophole copyright laws.

What's stopping anyone - right now - in this very topic - putting Julie-Su, Lara-Su, and so on into a shit biker outfit, calling them "Evil Julie-Su the Echidna", and saying "I own this"? How fucking deluded do you have to be to legitimately believe that this is completely above board?

[King Scoopa Koopa]

1 hour ago, horridus said:

It would largely be because he wouldn't really be worth the resources spent on shutting down what ultimately amounts to a penny ante publishing scheme.

This is one of those rare instances where I can get behind corporations doing something out of pure pettiness and spite.

59 minutes ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:

What is literally stopping anyone from doing this same trick on him? If you could do that, it would be a very blatant way to loophole copyright laws.

What's stopping anyone - right now - in this very topic - putting Julie-Su, Lara-Su, and so on into a shit biker outfit, calling them "Evil Julie-Su the Echidna", and saying "I own this"? How fucking deluded do you have to be to legitimately believe that this is completely above board?

Because Penders said he can and you can't. No backsies, nyeh-nyeh-nyeh.

"Ian made the mistake of..."

That was the entire point, to actually make something of worth out of this pimple on the book's long-running continuity that just would not go away.

Of course, that's another peek into Penders' mindset: Whereas Ian made use of what was already in the toybox, Penders would rather just ignore it and get something new, no matter how redundant it would be, or how irrelevant it would become after.

Was he the one who gave us two different Robo-Robotniks, by the way? Or did someone else come up with the other one?

[AlienBunny]

I think I said this before, but fanart/fanworks are illegal. However free advertisement, companies tend to look away. So long as it doesn't affect their bottom line, companies don't care. SEGA doesn't (legally) acknowledge the Sonic Fan Hacking contest because of this. Disney, Blizzard, Nintendo, are some companies that have taken down fanart/fanworks. Disney at cons stopping the selling of artwork. Blizzard with taking down lewd work of Overwatch characters. Nintendo with Pokemon fan games.

SEGA if they wanted can send a cease and desist to Penders, or take down his app in the future for copyright infringement. 

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:

This is one of the scummiest, most tactless things Penders has ever come out with, business wise. A perfect insight of the man who fucked over Ben Hurst to try kickstart a doomed shitty project of his own. Here he is practically admitting that he knows full well that Ian breathed life into this character, that he made this character far more distinctive and interesting than he ever could, and Penders has basically just admitted "lol well fuck him for doing that, I'm going to abuse his hard work now!". This scumbag literally intends on stealing someone else's work, and acting like a smug asshole about it.

Not to mention how fucking idiotic this is. You literally can't just say "Oh, I made a character called EVIL SONIC THE HEDGEHOG and then Ian Flynn - working for SEGA and Archie Comics - took EVIL SONIC THE HEDGEHOG and changed him into a different character. I refuse to believe you can just copyright this character just because you add evil to his title. What is literally stopping anyone from doing this same trick on him? If you could do that, it would be a very blatant way to loophole copyright laws.

What's stopping anyone - right now - in this very topic - putting Julie-Su, Lara-Su, and so on into a shit biker outfit, calling them "Evil Julie-Su the Echidna", and saying "I own this"? How fucking deluded do you have to be to legitimately believe that this is completely above board?

It will never stop astounding me that he insists on treating Ian as though he made the changes he did in an attempt to be personal about it. He was in charge of writing for the comic book when you left Ken. That was it. They had to hire somebody to write for it when you left. They weren't just going to cancel it when Echidna Pope Penders got off his paper masche throne and banished himself from the village to persue his dream of being the Sonic fandom's Court fucking jester.

[Zonic 2099]

5 hours ago, horridus said:

I feel like this is one of those times where Penders reveals more about himself than he ever intended. He's treating Flynn like he was out to steal something of his when ultimately all he did was inject new life in one of Penders stupid, trite little ideas... and for that, Penders talks about him like this and frames Scourge's existence in these terms. Its astounding.

I just imagine that Penders doesn't like that Ian managed to one up him in turning a complete joke of a villain into an actual threat that people wanted to see more of. I genuinely doubt Ian would have even turned Evil Sonic into Scourge had Penders not had Rouge team up with Evil Sonic prior to leaving Archie. No one would miss Evil Sonic if he were written out of the book as opposed to Scourge.

Sure Ken, can use Evil Sonic to his hearts content but I'm pretty sure Scourge is off limits as he didn't come up with the name nor design.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

4 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

They had to hire somebody to write for it when you left. They weren't just going to cancel it when Echidna Pope Penders got off his paper masche throne and banished himself from the village to persue his dream of being the Sonic fandom's Court fucking jester.

But they obviously should have, in his mind, as he was the only one bringing value of any sort to the franchise.

1 hour ago, Zonic 2099 said:

Sure Ken, can use Evil Sonic to his hearts content but I'm pretty sure Scourge is off limits as he didn't come up with the name nor design.

No, see, in the Penderverse, if someone changes something he made, it's his. If he changes something someone else made, it's his.

It's all his.

[SBR2]

7 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

Was he the one who gave us two different Robo-Robotniks, by the way? Or did someone else come up with the other one?

He did. The concept for Robo-Robotnik debuted in #19 and was brought back up in #22. Karl Bollers was the one who came up with using him to explain Eggman's redesign though.

It's also funny to me how Penders think Evil Sonic becoming Scourge made him not Evil Sonic anymore. They regularly reminded us that he was the Anti-Sonic or the Evil Sonic whenever he appeared. In fact the end of the King Scourge arc has him say "You can call me whatever you want. Knockoff. Anomaly. Whatever. The truth is I'm Sonic The Hedgehog at the top of his potential." I might have gotten that quote wrong but you get the point. 

[OnyxCrimsonBlur]

On 1/2/2021 at 8:51 PM, The Tenth Doctor said:

If any of you talk to him, call him Kenneth. Please.

Also unsure if thats how copyright works. They aren't using it so if I use it and they don't notice, its cool. His point on fans using it is meaningless because Sega don't mind fans doing anything with their stuff (hence Deviantart) but if you start to make money off it, think they might not be as happy. Especially from someone on their naughty list.

What happened is Penders filed suits to BioWare and SEGA because there were similarites in Sonic Chronicles. The case was thrown out twice by the same judge and he stated to settle matters with Archie first. Then, he filed an appeal at a different court and they upheld the original ruling. So basically the case was thrown out three times. Penders holds no rights to any assets in Sonic Chronicles, including Shade. All assets still belong to SEGA and BioWare/EA. He has no legal right to use Shade or any other character from that game. He's just delusional at this point and using this to keep shock value and to stay relevant. 

[The Tenth Doctor]

7 minutes ago, OnyxCrimsonBlur said:

What happened is Penders filed suits to BioWare and SEGA because there were similarites in Sonic Chronicles. The case was thrown out twice by the same judge and he stated to settle matters with Archie first. Then, he filed an appeal at a different court and they upheld the original ruling. So basically the case was thrown out three times. Penders holds no rights to any assets in Sonic Chronicles, including Shade. All assets still belong to SEGA and BioWare/EA. He has no legal right to use Shade or any other character from that game. He's just delusional at this point and using this to keep shock value and to stay relevant. 

I know how it is. Been following this since it started all those years ago. I'm more saying that I don't think copyright works the way Kenneth thinks it does. Saying he has a right to Shade is moronic and we all know it. Though, he also claims he owns Knuckles in a hat so...

[Adamis]

I posted a more accurate summary on Retro and forgot to post it here :

- He claims that since neither SEGA nor EA/Bioware fought for the rights of Shade, he can use her.
- One of his arguments is that SEGA never have gone against Archie for losing the rights to the comic material/assets, so obviously they wouldn't go after him about Shade. He uses the case of DeCarlo as the basis of this argument.
- He claims he has no plans to use her other than a couple of sentences in Julie-Su's bio and a 2 or 3 panel sequence in a story.
- His reasons : "protecting The Lara-Su Chronicles"
- "Because it took so long to fight Archie, it created complications in my case against SEGA & EA, resulting in essentially a dismissal. But because the dismissal was without prejudice, that meant the lawsuit against SEGA & EA could be refiled if SONIC CHRONICLES or any elements from it became an arguable issue."
- "From my perspective, my lawyers have always cautioned that if THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES were to become a success, there was a chance SEGA might want a piece of the action. What precludes that from happening is the passage of time as a result of my taking so long to get it done. For SEGA to file anything against me raises the question and my defense via the fact they never sued Archie for the loss of a valuable asset such as the ARCHIE Sonic series. By not taking action against Archie, or against me over the years as a result of my selling Lara-Su merchandise, SEGA has placed themselves in the same position as Dan DeCarlo with Archie. When they had the chance to fight back, they choose not. Thus Dan lost his case against Archie because he never fought Archie over the Josie opyrights."
- "My actions regarding Shade and also the Archie SONIC & KNUCKLES stories are more in line to protect not only my interests, but that of the other creators and to keep the work from falling into public domain."

[SBR2]

6 hours ago, Adamis said:

- "My actions regarding Shade and also the Archie SONIC & KNUCKLES stories are more in line to protect not only my interests, but that of the other creators and to keep the work from falling into public domain."

Ok. So I'm not an expert but...can licensed work fall into the public domain?

[horridus]

34 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Ok. So I'm not an expert but...can licensed work fall into the public domain?

Good question. I would guess that, in theory, a licensed work COULD fall into the public domain provided the license holder were to permit it. In theory. In practice I really don't see how that could happen without it being a clusterfuck given that said licensed work would in fact contain characters owned and created by the license holder. I guess it would mean that the stories are publically available and the characters made for the licensed work would be free for anyone to use, but again, I'm not an expert on this and the whole thing sounds like it'd be a weird clusterfuck if it ever were implemented. 

Sooo yeah, I somehow don't see Archie Sonic falling into the public domain anytime soon. 

6 hours ago, Adamis said:

I posted a more accurate summary on Retro and forgot to post it here :

- He claims that since neither SEGA nor EA/Bioware fought for the rights of Shade, he can use her.

I'm.... really trying to process where this logic comes from. Like, last I checked, the case was dismissed in their favor. They didn't really need to 'fight' for her in order to retain ownership of her. THere's a LOT of assumptions going in with this, and it mesmerizes me that he honestly thinks this is how it works. 

Quote

- One of his arguments is that SEGA never have gone against Archie for losing the rights to the comic material/assets, so obviously they wouldn't go after him about Shade. He uses the case of DeCarlo as the basis of this argument.

You know I can't believe that in the midst of all of this I forgot that he, against all evidence and reason, still thinks of the Archie book as being some kind of huge international seller and an integral cornerstone of the Sonic franchise. He's never been able to grasp the idea that the Archie books weren't THAT important to the Franchise, and his inability to even entertain the idea that maybe an unwillingness to go after a company for being incompetent isn't the same thing as going after someone from actively trying to steal from them isn't the same thing. 

I'd be legitimately concerned about where his head is at, but after everything I can't really muster it.
 

Quote

- "From my perspective, my lawyers have always cautioned that if THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES were to become a success, there was a chance SEGA might want a piece of the action. What precludes that from happening is the passage of time as a result of my taking so long to get it done. For SEGA to file anything against me raises the question and my defense via the fact they never sued Archie for the loss of a valuable asset such as the ARCHIE Sonic series. By not taking action against Archie, or against me over the years as a result of my selling Lara-Su merchandise, SEGA has placed themselves in the same position as Dan DeCarlo with Archie. When they had the chance to fight back, they choose not. Thus Dan lost his case against Archie because he never fought Archie over the Josie opyrights."

It's funny he keeps using that word, 'perspective', given that the further this goes on the more he reveals that he has absolutely no realistic perspective on the matter at all. I really, sincerely hope his lawyers are simply doing their job by informing him of all possibilities, however slim, rather than buying into Penders' deluded assessment of his series chances of success. He's again ignoring the fact that SEGA can in fact pick and choose when to do this and that they might not see suing him over his shoddy products that don't make anything being worth the time or money, even with his stupid-ass K'nox. I am also amazed that he felt free to share this angle given that in doing this he's basically admitting he IS doing stuff that SEGA COULD sue for if they felt like it, and the fact that he thinks this is a sign of good things for him is as baffling as it is idiotic. 

Quote

- "My actions regarding Shade and also the Archie SONIC & KNUCKLES stories are more in line to protect not only my interests, but that of the other creators and to keep the work from falling into public domain."

Yeeeah, no. He's ripping off another creator for his own ends and has been ever since the conclusion of this trial. Any claims to the contrary are just bullcrap. 

[AlienBunny]

I found Sonic Chronicles trademark (Not copyright.)

 

https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/trademarks/search/view/1216958?q=sonic+chronicles

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4806:eoaath.2.1

 

So... the situation maybe different for this game and characters?

 

[Rabid-Coot]

Trademarks expire a lot quicker than copyrights its why we see news every few years about Eternal Darkness expiring/being renewed and how we got the Captain Marvel situation.

[horridus]

In lesser news, Penders has posted yet another commission. If you ever wanted to see a younger version of Cobar, then today is your... less than lucky day.

 

Well, I guess now I know why he's never been shown in his full figure- it was to shield us from the horror of the warped proportions of his body. 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

It's amazing the things people would rather have than money.