Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Multikaris]

I think the funniest part of all this hubbub is that SEGA still forgot to copyright post-reboot material, meaning it’s all owned by Archie Comics themselves, who have moved on to mainly support their eponymous universe. I’m honestly surprised Dash has Longclaw, even if as a limited-time-only character. 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

3 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Is that what happened? I thought it was the other way around and Marvel had full copyright to any original characters introduced?

Only if they were introduced elsewhere first and then used in the book, to my understanding.

[SBR2]

3 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

Only if they were introduced elsewhere first and then used in the book, to my understanding.

Yeah I looked it up after seeing this and you were right. I honestly didn't know this.

[Scritch the Cat]

On 12/24/2020 at 11:06 AM, Snowragnarok said:

I think the funniest part of all this hubbub is that SEGA still forgot to copyright post-reboot material, meaning it’s all owned by Archie Comics themselves, who have moved on to mainly support their eponymous universe. I’m honestly surprised Dash has Longclaw, even if as a limited-time-only character. 

I’m not sure SEGA forgot.  It’s more likely SEGA just didn’t see that stuff as worth holding onto.  Sonic’s game universe already has, to put it bluntly, more characters than it needs.  This was demonstrated by multiple characters being moveset clones of each other in the Adventure era. Moreover, it’s continuity is messy enough without trying to square it away with an adaptation that adds loads of other characters to its versions of famous story arcs.  SEGA doesn’t currently seem to have a dogmatic vision for what Sonic should be; rather it seems to be throwing multiple ideas at the wall and seeing what stick, but it’s fair to say that at least this time SEGA wants to do these things more cautiously and gradually, to keep any one decision from being a burden.

As to movie Sonic(s) and Longclaw in the mobile games, as well as Tangle, Whisper, and Knuckles having a hat, there are a few things going on.  First, these games barely have a story, though one sort of acts like it’s a continuation of Sonic Forces, and make nothing of such apparent plot holes as multiple instances of the same character competing at once.  Second, SEGA probably doesn’t presume that most creators are as bossy and greedy as Penders was, and most of them probably aren’t, but every “fringe” character that shows up there so far (barring outfits for Knuckles and Rouge) was created since SEGA started taking a harder line with its peripheral media.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

3 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I’m not sure SEGA forgot.  It’s more likely SEGA just didn’t see that stuff as worth holding onto.

Could prove to be their loss many years into the future, like when Warner Bros. and Fox wouldn't budge on the rights to the '60s Adam West Batman TV show, preventing a DVD release from happening for many years. Or the quagmire of rights issues Marvel and Disney tried to dance around because Fox had the rights to make X-Men/mutant-based stuff. Or Mirage and the Fred Wolf TMNT.

Probably other examples, too. No one there now may value it, but that could change later.

It's not always a bad thing, though. I'm sure if Nintendo had their way with the rights, everything from The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! to Captain N: The Game Master to the Super Mario Bros. movie, and everything in between, would be buried away in a dark, airtight vault hundreds of meters underground, never to see the light of day again.

[Multikaris]

On 12/25/2020 at 4:49 AM, KingScoopaKoopa said:

Could prove to be their loss many years into the future, like when Warner Bros. and Fox wouldn't budge on the rights to the '60s Adam West Batman TV show, preventing a DVD release from happening for many years. Or the quagmire of rights issues Marvel and Disney tried to dance around because Fox had the rights to make X-Men/mutant-based stuff. Or Mirage and the Fred Wolf TMNT.

Probably other examples, too. No one there now may value it, but that could change later.

It's not always a bad thing, though. I'm sure if Nintendo had their way with the rights, everything from The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! to Captain N: The Game Master to the Super Mario Bros. movie, and everything in between, would be buried away in a dark, airtight vault hundreds of meters underground, never to see the light of day again.

I now wonder if SEGA would be the same way as Nintendo concerning the adaptations? 

On 12/25/2020 at 1:08 AM, Scritch the Cat said:

I’m not sure SEGA forgot.  It’s more likely SEGA just didn’t see that stuff as worth holding onto.  Sonic’s game universe already has, to put it bluntly, more characters than it needs.  This was demonstrated by multiple characters being moveset clones of each other in the Adventure era. Moreover, it’s continuity is messy enough without trying to square it away with an adaptation that adds loads of other characters to its versions of famous story arcs.  SEGA doesn’t currently seem to have a dogmatic vision for what Sonic should be; rather it seems to be throwing multiple ideas at the wall and seeing what stick, but it’s fair to say that at least this time SEGA wants to do these things more cautiously and gradually, to keep any one decision from being a burden.

As to movie Sonic(s) and Longclaw in the mobile games, as well as Tangle, Whisper, and Knuckles having a hat, there are a few things going on.  First, these games barely have a story, though one sort of acts like it’s a continuation of Sonic Forces, and make nothing of such apparent plot holes as multiple instances of the same character competing at once.  Second, SEGA probably doesn’t presume that most creators are as bossy and greedy as Penders was, and most of them probably aren’t, but every “fringe” character that shows up there so far (barring outfits for Knuckles and Rouge) was created since SEGA started taking a harder line with its peripheral media.

And even then these “fringe” characters are limited time offers, and considered more in the category of crossover characters like the Angry Birds. A handful of Nintendo franchises HAVE added fringe characters in certain products, such as Escargoon in some Kirby games.

 

EDIT: Streets of Rage 4 also has some references to the Fleetway comic included.

[Zonic 2099]

Wait is he going the Google Stadia subscription route once the trial is up? That seems to be asking a lot of people considering they'll probably be waiting months (very likely years) on end for a product with the quality of a bargain bin Wall Mart DVD.

This was the prior tweet that sparked that convo

Not everything can or should be a subscription service my guy.

[horridus]

Geeze. I've heard about counting your chickens before they hatch, but this entire payment scheme is more like counting your eggs before the Hen's been introduced to the Rooster. There's a LOT of assumptions going on for him to think this would work for what he's (not) putting out. 

9 hours ago, Zonic 2099 said:

Not everything can or should be a subscription service my guy.

Penders likes to think of himself as a modern guy who is keeping up with the cutting edge of technology. It's why he expanded his initial Graphic Novel idea into an App, since 'everyone' had Apps now. He even cited DC's and Archie's comic book Apps to justify the approach. Given how much entertainment is now subscription based, he's likely doing it because he thinks he's being 'current' and making his work 'more professional'. Unfortunately, much like the App thing, he doesn't really stop and consider why it is others are able to do this while he really, really shouldn't... 

[Rabid-Coot]

Is he actually talking about a subscription there? To me it reads like 6 months of free app then it becomes a paid app with each chapter being a seperate purchase.

[horridus]

On 12/26/2020 at 6:58 PM, Rabid-Coot said:

Is he actually talking about a subscription there? To me it reads like 6 months of free app then it becomes a paid app with each chapter being a seperate purchase.

Yeah, you're right. I jumped the gun there. That said I still maintain that Penders is making some pretty big assumptions about how popular his work will be and how much he'll actually get done in order for this projected payment scheme to work out in the way he's likely envisioning. 

[SBR2]

So I don't know why but I put some thought to Penders claims about Geoffrey having sex with Sally and came to a horrible realization. 

The only time that the act could have happened was when he was hanging around Knothole all the time. Just after Max was saved from the Zone of Silence. While Sally was stressing over his crystallization. 

Geoffrey St. John not only banged a minor but one who was in a fragile emotional state. He took advantage of her grief to take her virginity! Penders wants us to think this makes him cool and not a creep who should be put away. 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

This is like the gift that keeps on giving, but nobody wants it.

[SBR2]

https://www.twitter.com/KenPenders/status/1344399978123333636

Just...why? It makes no sense they only have being girl Echidna's who defected in common. Beyond that they have nothing even remotely similar going on. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

https://www.twitter.com/KenPenders/status/1344399978123333636

Just...why? It makes no sense they only have being girl Echidna's who defected in common. Beyond that they have nothing even remotely similar going on. 

This is the literal dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard. They quite literally have zero to do with each other barring the very bare minimum "enemy echidna who is female defects to Knuckles' side". 

And also, considering Ken lost that lawsuit against SEGA and EA, I'm pretty sure that blatant theft on top of that. 

[SBR2]

19 minutes ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:

This is the literal dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard. They quite literally have zero to do with each other barring the very bare minimum "enemy echidna who is female defects to Knuckles' side". 

And also, considering Ken lost that lawsuit against SEGA and EA, I'm pretty sure that blatant theft on top of that. 

It's ok though. People on the BioWare forums in 2009 pointed out vague similarities. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/KenPenders/status/1344435785001385984

[Zonic 2099]

1 minute ago, SBR2 said:

It's ok though. People on the BioWare forums in 2009 pointed out vague similarities. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/KenPenders/status/1344435785001385984

 

Just because Shade is based on Julie-Su, being a better version of her. That doesn't mean you can effectively take and use any part of her being in your premium fanfiction Ken.

Otherwise Akira Toriyama could use the mountains of expies his characters helped to create.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Unless I'm severely misremembering Chronicles, there's literally zero similarities other than female echidna who defects from evil echidna army. She has a different personality, different outfit, and hell - even her relationship with Knuckles is strictly business. There's no romantic angle whatsoever.

[Dr. Detective]

Ken Penders' Brilliant Plan of Action

Step 1: File lawsuit against SEGA and EA

Step 2: Get the case dismissed twice in court and be unable to file again unless they use Sonic Chronicles' characters (which they won't).

Step 3: Ignore the fact that the case was dismissed and tempt fate by using the character anyway.

Step 4: Do nothing for another 10 years instead of doing the borderline dangerous thing you said you were gonna do, officially rendering this all moot.

Step 5: Profit. Somehow.

We have ourselves a modern J.P Morgan on our hands. By the Gods. What a brilliant business man.

 

[Rabid-Coot]

If this ever sees the light of day it is going to be such an insane mess.

[Polkadi~☆]

Just dropping by during this conversation to say that I've been in contact with a developer on Sonic Chronicles due to them noticing the Sonic Chronicles fan remake being made by a group I work with.

But this isn't some code monkey, this is the lead designer, Miles Holmes.

When asked about Ken Penders, neither he nor the rest of the dev team are aware of him. Neither are they aware of the court case that happened.

 

ken is full of shit

[SBR2]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Ken Penders' Brilliant Plan of Action

Step 1: File lawsuit against SEGA and EA

Step 2: Get the case dismissed twice in court and be unable to file again unless they use Sonic Chronicles' characters (which they won't).

Step 3: Ignore the fact that the case was dismissed and tempt fate by using the character anyway.

Step 4: Do nothing for another 10 years instead of doing the borderline dangerous thing you said you were gonna do, officially rendering this all moot.

Step 5: Profit. Somehow.

We have ourselves a modern J.P Morgan on our hands. By the Gods. What a brilliant business man.

 

I am legitimately in awe of this man's bizarre grasp on reality. Never mind the fact Sega is definitely aware of who Shade is since they used her in one of the Mario and Sonic Olympics games.

It's just amazing the lengths he'll go to. Reality has long since past him by.

[The Tenth Doctor]

Think EA will like being ripped off? Sega have always just acted like he hasn't existed but EA might not take it well that someone is stealing their stuff, even if its not been used for years.

Also Ken, just cause someone said something on a forum doesn't mean its real. I would believe Shadow was an amazing infalliable Evil God if I believed what I read on here.

[Leebo4]

5 hours ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

Think EA will like being ripped off? Sega have always just acted like he hasn't existed but EA might not take it well that someone is stealing their stuff, even if its not been used for years.

Also Ken, just cause someone said something on a forum doesn't mean its real. I would believe Shadow was an amazing infalliable Evil God if I believed what I read on here.

Would ea have a claim on the characters for the game, then again Ken Penders lawsuits showed that Sega were bad about these clauses in contracts before

[horridus]

16 hours ago, SBR2 said:

https://www.twitter.com/KenPenders/status/1344399978123333636

Just...why? It makes no sense they only have being girl Echidna's who defected in common. Beyond that they have nothing even remotely similar going on. 

I do so love these moments that legitimately make me question the particular reality that Penders is living in. This is one of the most utterly deluded statements I've heard from the guy, and given the utterly bountiful crop of absurd gibberish to emerge from his mouth over the years, that's really saying something. Beyond the obvious problems of in-universe logic this would cause given the blatant differences between Julie-Su and Shade in terms of design and personality and backstory, this logic SEVERELY undermines what Penders has been screaming about for nearly the last decade- if Shade is literally one and the same as his character, then by that logic, SEGA owns K'nox and all the other derivatives he's concocted for his idiotic project.

16 hours ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:

Unless I'm severely misremembering Chronicles, there's literally zero similarities other than female echidna who defects from evil echidna army. She has a different personality, different outfit, and hell - even her relationship with Knuckles is strictly business. There's no romantic angle whatsoever.

Indeed. It's a Superman and Captain Marvel/Shazam situation- there are certain surface similarities, but actual lore and characterization and design are very different. Shade is indeed a female soldier who defects from an evil Echidna Army, much like Julie, but that's where it ends. Shade was a ranking officer in the Nocturnus who was loyal to the cause until realizing that Imperator Ix was in fact evil, and she behaves as you would expect a disciplined, principled soldier to act. Julie-Su was a low level soldier in the Dark Legion who was secretly related to the Legion's leadership, and left due to the urgings of the Soul Touch, and is a hot tempered spitfire who possesses cybernetics. 

It is literally declaring that by deign of both being fruit, an Apple and an Orange are Exactly The SAme Thing. 

15 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Ken Penders' Brilliant Plan of Action

Step 1: File lawsuit against SEGA and EA

Step 2: Get the case dismissed twice in court and be unable to file again unless they use Sonic Chronicles' characters (which they won't).

Step 3: Ignore the fact that the case was dismissed and tempt fate by using the character anyway.

Step 4: Do nothing for another 10 years instead of doing the borderline dangerous thing you said you were gonna do, officially rendering this all moot.

Step 5: Profit. Somehow.

We have ourselves a modern J.P Morgan on our hands. By the Gods. What a brilliant business man.

 

At this stage of things I'm pretty convinced he just likes to talk rather than actually do anything. In the 9 years that have passed since the trial's conclusion and the announcement he has produced nothing of substance pertaining to this project. Until he actually implements this, it IS just talk, and if he DOES go through with this, then he's even more of a hypocrite and a fool than we have come to believe. 

14 hours ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

Think EA will like being ripped off? Sega have always just acted like he hasn't existed but EA might not take it well that someone is stealing their stuff, even if its not been used for years.

Also Ken, just cause someone said something on a forum doesn't mean its real. I would believe Shadow was an amazing infalliable Evil God if I believed what I read on here.

Tough call. This project hasn't really been released yet and Penders isn't making money. So far all he's done is made some insignificant arts and crafts projects and some very, very ugly art, but he has not in fact released his App or anything else. So far he's not done anything that'd be worth getting worked up over. It's why SEGA has done nothing, because in the end its not really worth it. It remains to be seen if EA feels the same way, but given Penders perennial inability to release the goddamned thing, I doubt they're gonna make a move just because he's TALKING about his stupid, nonsensical idea of merging Shade with Julie-Su. 

Also, Penders has an incredibly selective memory when it comes to the veracity of things like forum posts. When its something that favors HIS position it's fine. When it's something that undermines him, then it's not credible. He recently called someone bringing up a past instance of him conceding SEGA's ownership of his work as 'Fake Evidence'. As said repeatedly, he's a hypocrite, plain and simple. 

[Zonic 2099]

Ken, Archie only ever got permission to use Shade for a single tie in lasting only a few pages. They had equally as much involvement in Shade's creation as you did, being Shade being inspired by a character who appeared in their comics.

Unless you have a contract lying around saying SEGA and or EA has given you sole ownership of Shade then you are just spouting nonsense.