Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Zaysho]

It's not that strange of a request when it comes to comics. A single pinup doesn't really give a sense of someone's ability to lay out a page or actually illustrate a story; comics actually do require certain skills. Penders isn't exactly Jack Kirby, no, but it seems a bit early to suggest he's being unreasonable in this instance.

[The Tenth Doctor]

8 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

It's not that strange of a request when it comes to comics. A single pinup doesn't really give a sense of someone's ability to lay out a page or actually illustrate a story; comics actually do require certain skills. Penders isn't exactly Jack Kirby, no, but it seems a bit early to suggest he's being unreasonable in this instance.

Absolutely, I can 100% agree that one picture can't let him know how someone tells a story. He's not being unreasonable at all, giving your work to someone else to expand is scary and difficult, you have to make sure they are doing your work justice. I'm just looking at how he handled it before, when he did the Sonic comics and other writers used his characters. Most people see what Flynn did to Penders characters as an upgrade, Geoffery being a jerk was expanded and made sympathetic, Lara Su had a little bit of character added and Locke was actually able to do one heroic thing for his son. Penders has loathed seeing any other writer use his stuff, even fan art annoys him. True, this time he gets to pick who does it which could help him. I just imagine he'd be quite restrictive with what another writer could do.

[Zaysho]

29 minutes ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

I'm just looking at how he handled it before, when he did the Sonic comics and other writers used his characters. Most people see what Flynn did to Penders characters as an upgrade, Geoffery being a jerk was expanded and made sympathetic, Lara Su had a little bit of character added and Locke was actually able to do one heroic thing for his son.

That's a fair point, he is protective of his characters to a pretty ridiculous degree. But I think that's a different case from here. He wasn't part of Archie anymore and he simply didn't accept that the work could be carried on without him (which is ironic considering his experience on licensed properties). I guess I'm taking this at face value that he just wants someone to draw a story that he is presumably writing, which he'd have a lot more control over and probably would be able to get whatever he wanted out of an artist that's willing to put up with him. At least, I didn't see anything suggesting he was handing off writing duties, which I can't see him doing more or less because of what you mentioned.

Honestly, I'm more concerned about if he can pay a fair page rate and if he can do that regardless of if this thing even comes out.

[Rouge_Witchy]

i wonder what he thinks of Whisper The Wolf....honestly no i don't

the dude needs to realize once and for all that he's a washed up nobody who wrote some sonic comics once upon a time but that time is long  gone and he can't keep this stupid childish act up

[SBR2]

4 hours ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

In the replies someone shows off their work to say they'd be interested. Ken's reply states he's not looking for just an artist.

He wants someone who can draw and tell a story. Of course, Ken will never be satified with what anyone else does for his story. Art or story, the guy is as picky as they come.

What is wrong with the storytelling in this piece? I can tell easily that Sally was roboticized and is sad about it. It tells a simple and clear story.

[horridus]

3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Honestly, I'm more concerned about if he can pay a fair page rate and if he can do that regardless of if this thing even comes out.

For what it is worth, he DOES pay @Adamis to do translations. So, there's that at least... granted, I'm not sure what THAT rate pays compared to a professional service, so who knows really. 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

What is wrong with the storytelling in this piece? I can tell easily that Sally was roboticized and is sad about it. It tells a simple and clear story.

Maybe they should have used one of the Echydnya?

That or included more than one character or an environment.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

15 hours ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

I find his latest tweet rather interesting.

First, he doesn't have the time to do it. What else is he doing that he can't add in some proper backstory? I know it takes Ken years to actually draw a comic but it would help him flesh out why she is what she is.

Second, imagine being the poor person he picks if he did open it up. They'd give it everything and he would never be satisfied. Ken has never seemed to like others using his characters, just imagine how controlling he would be on the story. He'd make J.K Rowling look easy to work with.

 

J.K. Rowling? He'd probably make J.K. Simmons  (his portrayal of J. Jonah Jameson, specifically) look easy to work with.

10 hours ago, Rouge_Witchy said:

i wonder what he thinks of Whisper The Wolf....honestly no i don't

"They're clearly ripping off my seminal character, Drago, rather than creating something new and original that would fit in this world, and that's just sad."

11 hours ago, Zaysho said:

That's a fair point, he is protective of his characters to a pretty ridiculous degree. But I think that's a different case from here. He wasn't part of Archie anymore and he simply didn't accept that the work could be carried on without him (which is ironic considering his experience on licensed properties). I guess I'm taking this at face value that he just wants someone to draw a story that he is presumably writing, which he'd have a lot more control over and probably would be able to get whatever he wanted out of an artist that's willing to put up with him. At least, I didn't see anything suggesting he was handing off writing duties, which I can't see him doing more or less because of what you mentioned.

Honestly, I'm more concerned about if he can pay a fair page rate and if he can do that regardless of if this thing even comes out.

Even when he was at Archie, he couldn't break out the firehose to wash away what Bollers had done with "his" stuff in Return to Angel Island fast enough.

Collaborative work is not his strong point. He's the guy who'd show up at a Battle of the Bands to perform a solo act, and if he was forced to bring others along, he'd probably tell them to just sit there and look pretty while he does the rest.

[Adamis]

13 hours ago, SBR2 said:

What is wrong with the storytelling in this piece? I can tell easily that Sally was roboticized and is sad about it. It tells a simple and clear story.

It's just not enough. A single pin-up doesn't show one's ability to tell a story in comic book form

[Shadowlax]

15 hours ago, Rouge_Witchy said:

i wonder what he thinks of Whisper The Wolf....honestly no i don't

the dude needs to realize once and for all that he's a washed up nobody who wrote some sonic comics once upon a time but that time is long  gone and he can't keep this stupid childish act up

I mean, probably bad things. I think honestly he thinks bad things for most of the game characters tbh, they were in the way of whatever story he was trying to tell.

[horridus]

Whelp, it's been a long, long while, but we've gotten our first update of substance in a long, long while... of sorts.

 

Well, there you have it- an announcement for something to be ACTUALLY printed at Comic-con of next year. Given his track record of announcements, we'll see if this amounts to anything. History teaches 'no'. 

[Dr. Detective]

He's doing what now? 

I'm sorry, I think I may be misunderstanding something. He's getting prices for THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES: BEGINNINGS IN ALL CAPS... and it's a collection of MOBIUS: 25 YEARS LATER IN ALL CAPS stories from Archie Sonic 131 through 144...? 

I'm a bit confused. Is that something he can do? Is this his thing or is Archie doing it...? Wait, no, that doesn't sound right either.

How does this work? Excuse my ignorance here but I'm not sure I get what's going on.

[DabigRG]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

He's doing what now? 

I'm sorry, I think I may be misunderstanding something. He's getting prices for THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES: BEGINNINGS IN ALL CAPS... and it's a collection of MOBIUS: 25 YEARS LATER IN ALL CAPS stories from Archie Sonic 131 through 144...? 

I'm a bit confused. Is that something he can do? Is this his thing or is Archie doing it...? Wait, no, that doesn't sound right either.

How does this work? Excuse my ignorance here but I'm not sure I get what's going on.

He could probably skirt by for a bit on crediting Archie and their artists for their input. Though I suppose they dont have the license anymore.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

9 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

He could probably skirt by for a bit on crediting Archie and their artists for their input. Though I suppose they dont have the license anymore.

No, he really can't. It's material he doesn't own using characters he doesn't have the license for, that he's trying to sell in a for-profit situation. SEGA have every right to cease and desist his ass because Penders doesn't own the rights to SEGA's characters.

[DabigRG]

Just now, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

No, he really can't. It's material he doesn't own using characters he doesn't have the license for, that he's trying to sell in a for-profit situation. SEGA have every right to cease and desist his ass because Penders doesn't own the rights to SEGA's characters.

Oh shoot, I honestly forgot about that.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

No, he really can't. It's material he doesn't own using characters he doesn't have the license for, that he's trying to sell in a for-profit situation. SEGA have every right to cease and desist his ass because Penders doesn't own the rights to SEGA's characters.

That's what I was led to understand so...

... literally what is he doing?

I have to be misunderstanding something about this...

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

That's what I was led to understand so...

... literally what is he doing?

I have to be misunderstanding something about this...

 

No, you aren't misunderstanding anything. Penders has stated this is what he intends to do, print the books exactly. In fact, IIRC - either Sonic or Knuckles appeared already in one of his preview pages (As in the proper versions) because he literally just copy/pasted a panel from M25YL.

He believes since he wrote M25YL, he literally owns full rights to the story, and everything included in it, including ALL of the SEGA cast featured. The only situation he would be allowed to do so, is if he redesigned every character in every story to be unique (which being real, is too much work for Penders), or if he cut out everything except his cast, which again being real - won't happen.

On top of that, Steven Butler was the original artist of M25YL, not Penders. Considering how much of a shitshow Penders flared up because of his work being used without royalties/credit, has he asked Butler for permission to use his artwork? Is Butler getting a cut of the profits? Royalties? I very much doubt it, considering again, who it is. 

So let's look at the most likely scenario - Penders is going to basically copy/paste and reprint the work he doesn't have rights to. He has rights to his character. I don't recall if he got rights to the stories he wrote or not, but he certainly doesn't have rights to Butler's work, and he doesn't have rights to any of the SEGA, or Archie cast. 

Considering a lot of M25YL is insanely outdated as well, including Knuckles being married to Julie-Su, and having a daughter, Sonic being married to Sally and their children, Mina/Tails, so on so forth, as well as some of the random stuff like Rotor being implied to be in a relationship to Cobar, and tons of other stuff that is severely outdated now, it's in SEGA's best interest to shut it down. 

What Penders is proposing to do is like if you uploaded a Sonic comic to YouTube, and then tried to get ad revenue off of it. SEGA have every right to shut him down.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

So let's look at the most likely scenario - Penders is going to basically copy/paste and reprint the work he doesn't have rights to. He has rights to his character. I don't recall if he got rights to the stories he wrote or not, but he certainly doesn't have rights to Butler's work, and he doesn't have rights to any of the SEGA, or Archie cast. 

Considering a lot of M25YL is insanely outdated as well, including Knuckles being married to Julie-Su, and having a daughter, Sonic being married to Sally and their children, Mina/Tails, so on so forth, as well as some of the random stuff like Rotor being implied to be in a relationship to Cobar, and tons of other stuff that is severely outdated now, it's in SEGA's best interest to shut it down. 

What Penders is proposing to do is like if you uploaded a Sonic comic to YouTube, and then tried to get ad revenue off of it. SEGA have every right to shut him down.

I just... don't...

Like, why does he technically even need the M25YL stories to serve as a prequel to his bullshit? Wasn't the point of changing the echidna to ech'-yna-nyahs (or however it's spelled. It doesn't matter. This comic is never getting made) to differentiate between the Archie books? He made them aliens or some shit, right? But now he's going to sell an old collection of comics that have them flat out written as being echidnas? And Sonic's there too? 

Did I fundamentally misunderstand what THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES IN ALL CAPS was? I thought he already was going to rework the past events to fit with whatever he's doing now but if Sonic 131- 144 is being packaged together as the BEGINNINGS before the SHATTERED TOMORROWS than...

What...? 

What the going is fuck on???!!

[DabigRG]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

I just... don't...Like, why does he technically even need the M25YL stories to serve as a prequel to his bullshit?

To draw in fans of his previous work with the same characters.

Quote

But now he's going to sell an old collection of comics that have them flat out written as being echidnas? And Sonic's there too? !

He's gonna have to edit some things to keep this reasonably connected.

Unless he plays around more with the reboot.

Quote

Did I fundamentally misunderstand what THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES IN ALL CAPS was? I thought he already was going to rework the past events to fit with whatever he's doing now but if Sonic 131- 144 is being packaged together as the BEGINNINGS before the SHATTERED TOMORROWS than...

What...? 

What the going is fuck on???!

He's trying to keep the events of 20 Years Later canon. Even or rather because that ended with the timeline getting schwifty.

 

 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Isn't the whole "echyd'nya" (or whatever) thing supposed to be an in-universe reboot sort of thing? Like, they were echidna before, now they're... that?

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

Isn't the whole "echyd'nya" (or whatever) thing supposed to be an in-universe reboot sort of thing? Like, they were echidna before, now they're... that?

That's what I was led to believe. 

These actions, if he goes through with it, don't make any sense to me if this is still the case.

[Tylinos]

Yeah, pretty much the only ways he could legally do this is if he either redoes the entire story to replace all of the characters he didn't make and Butler's art, of if he gives it away for free.

Or if his settlement with Sega and Archie had some kind of "you can republish stuff as long as you make it clear it's unofficial" clause.  But that seems a bit unlikely for Sega.

[horridus]

People have brought up these concerns to Penders on his twitter, and each time he's basically said 'trust me, I got it covered'. Either there's some part of his deal that DOES allow some sort of exemption, or Penders is deeply misunderstanding the situation at hand, or is certain that he's altered things to the point where its legally distinct. 

Either way though, we're not gonna know til Comic-Con of next year. Supposedly. 

[AlienBunny]

Fan Art is illegal to sell. However most artist get away with selling their fan work (unless it's Disney). Unless it affects their underline, mostly companies don't care because a small artist selling fanart doesn't affect them. Ken Penders however may be a special case. I'm not just talking about using M25YL again. SEGA may not care about that considering all the fan projects I see going around. Just look at Esty. I'm more looking at the stock and traced images he has in his LSC comic (with the pages he's shown so far). Someone could send Penders a cease and desist if he used a copyrighted photograph without a license to use it.

 

Here some videos:

seanwes tv 142: Can I Sell Fan Art?

Ponder Sprocket: Adventures in Critiquing - Rain on Sunny Day

[Salamander]

The impression I get is that a lot of fanart commissions and things like that skate by the rights holders because they're effectively just being approached on an individual basis; it's not the same as another company attempting to muscle in on an IP.  There's no real threat involved, and it'd be too much hassle to go after so many small fry that pose no threat for no reward.  Penders... well, he might fly under the radar on these grounds, but given that he's literally been party to a SEGA lawsuit regarding character rights and does attempt to make arguments about legal IP ownership based on such, it might be a problem.  His potential IP violations seem more egregious than those of the average fanartist, not least because of the claims he makes about the implications.